It's clear SE doesn't care and Samurai will not be reverted in 6.2

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Originally Posted by angelar_

I wish people hyperfixate less on Kaiten, a button that understandably does little other than "feel good," and focus more on real problems like "SE really screwed up the functionality of SAM AoEs in 6.1."

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6.1 Changes just outright made me quit doing Dungeons and Fates.


Executing Samurai AoE with Kaiten, made Tenka Goken felt impactful. At times even compliments from Parties, that I made dungeons and fates go faster then how they experienced it being with another Samurai. From sidestepping AoE puddles to aiming Tenka Goken at packs of mobs, to the 50% potency increase from Kaiten, it made it all satisfying. I was able to do this for hours for how fulfilling it felt while farming for hours. Helping friends level, queue up for roulette, or even do fates endlessly. It was satisfying.

But Now?
They just copy pasted the old animation and made it circular. Lazy. A circle removed my ability to aim my Tenka Goken at a pack of mobs as satisfyingly as a cone. My Shinten guage is now a Kyuten gauge during AoE. Kyuten never felt like it had weight anyways, with 20 Kenki Kaiten spend not on Kaiten but channeled to Kyuten? made my Tenka Goken feel un-impactful. The Rotation is dumbed down. And I would not be satisfied if they made it Auto-Crit cause they ruined the gameplay, but EVEN THAT they couldn't do to make up for Kaiten removal.

What once was just helping PF farm triple triad, or glamours, or helping friends do Fates etc... Now me just not doing any of it. I refuse to. It's not fun. It's actually mentally draining that we had something this satisfying just robbed from us for no reason. For literally no reason.

Where are all these players that couldn't finish ARR/HWSB/SHB/EW dungeons?
Cause their Tenka Goken was so unusable as a cone? Tab Target was so painful with Tenka Goken it broke their wrists? their poor little fingies, couldn't handle a few Kaiten casts apparently? and their braincells lacked the ability to manage Kenki that is made fun of for being EASY!? -> but now it's changed and finally finally finally!! made Playable! Really? only NOW Samurai is fixed and finally can finish that last few Guildhest! Bullshit.

ZERO REASONS FOR THESE LAZY CHANGES

The summoner is now, too. Titan, Everett, garuro, their power is very unbalanced

Called it. Not even a passing mention in the LL short of DRG and AST changes being delayed.

Once my sub runs out I'm not re-upping. The games direction is all but cemented in continuing down this awful path. ARR to 6.08 was lightning in a bottle I guess. Oh well, 10 years or so of enjoying a game is better than none I suppose.

what if instead of bringing back Kaiten, they tune down the Shinten/Kyuten Kenki cost to 20 and apply the Kaiten Buff onto those skills? that would at least undone the 'sitting on 20 Kenki with nothing to do with'-Problem ...

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

what if instead of bringing back Kaiten, they tune down the Shinten/Kyuten Kenki cost to 20 and apply the Kaiten Buff onto those skills? that would at least undone the 'sitting on 20 Kenki with nothing to do with'-Problem ...

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I'd rather just have Kaiten back, thanks.

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

what if instead of bringing back Kaiten, they tune down the Shinten/Kyuten Kenki cost to 20 and apply the Kaiten Buff onto those skills? that would at least undone the 'sitting on 20 Kenki with nothing to do with'-Problem ...

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I want the animation of kaiten back.

don't worry, it just was an idea to fix the problem that grind my gears the most hardest about the Kaiten Removal.

I learned the Move of Kaiten irl in protest.

This looks like a situation where Square could make nearly all Samaurai players much happier by returning Kaiten to the class. It seems like such a no-brainer in this situation, and I am still truly bewildered why this change was made to begin with.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

This looks like a situation where Square could make nearly all Samaurai players much happier by returning Kaiten to the class. It seems like such a no-brainer in this situation, and I am still truly bewildered why this change was made to begin with.

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tl;dr? Laziness. They felt that Kaiten was restricting them from iterating and innovating on future abilities for the job and opted to remove it instead of doing literally anything else that would preserve the well-loved gameplay of the job.

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Originally Posted by Quor

tl;dr? Laziness. They felt that Kaiten was restricting them from iterating and innovating on future abilities for the job and opted to remove it instead of doing literally anything else that would preserve the well-loved gameplay of the job.

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Which would be fine if we actually got meaningful changes and something to replace kaiten. Problem is 6.1 was a hamfisted change and they should have just left SAM alone until 7.0 where they could do a proper full scale change and not just "lawl bye kaiten and have some boring auto crits!". I get covid and all that happened so their dev cycle got ran sideways during EW, but these incremental changes that they want to make are just not cool.

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Originally Posted by KurenXIV

Called it. Not even a passing mention in the LL short of DRG and AST changes being delayed.

Once my sub runs out I'm not re-upping. The games direction is all but cemented in continuing down this awful path. ARR to 6.08 was lightning in a bottle I guess. Oh well, 10 years or so of enjoying a game is better than none I suppose.

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The devs have been removing core buttons of jobs long before 6.1

I’m feeling pessimistic about any reversions at this point to be honest; the lack of even a slight acknowledgement of the numerous amounts of feedback that they specifically asked for is unfortunate.

A localization forum thread did get a higher-up response about leftover action description issues, so responding to that response with the restoration of Kaiten as a solution to that raised issue might be more likely to be seen at this point.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

I’m feeling pessimistic about any reversions at this point to be honest; the lack of even a slight acknowledgement of the numerous amounts of feedback that they specifically asked for is unfortunate.

A localization forum thread did get a higher-up response about leftover action description issues, so responding to that response with the restoration of Kaiten as a solution to that raised issue might be more likely to be seen at this point.

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I think at this point we can postpone the doomsaying until the next live letter. That will be the moment to make or break us. Feedback has been given, dislike has been said ad nauseum.

Also, the localization thread is there about translation issues in the game. Grammatical errors. And before you point out, yes I did post there as well, and guess what... the higher-up that responded never responded beyond the grammatical error post. Kindly stop suggesting we go to a different section. They aren't reacting to it like you keep saying they are.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

I think at this point we can postpone the doomsaying until the next live letter. That will be the moment to make or break us. Feedback has been given, dislike has been said ad nauseum.

Also, the localization thread is there about translation issues in the game. Grammatical errors. And before you point out, yes I did post there as well, and guess what... the higher-up that responded never responded beyond the grammatical error post. Kindly stop suggesting we go to a different section. They aren't reacting to it like you keep saying they are.

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The thread raised a problem with regards to an action having a wrong description; one solution to that would be to revert the Kaiten-related changes so that the description would thus be correct again, so I don’t see that as an unreasonable or off-topic response to the higher-up comment that was left in there.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

The thread raised a problem with regards to an action having a wrong description; one solution to that would be to revert the Kaiten-related changes so that the description would thus be correct again, so I don’t see that as an unreasonable or off-topic response to the higher-up comment that was left in there.

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Ok, good luck with that.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

Ok, good luck with that.

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I mean, healers have largely limited their continuously ignored feedback regarding consistently limited DPS variety to the Healer forums, but that doesn’t seem to lead to any higher-up forum responses; the General Discussion forums got an official response for Hrothgar hair, which is one more forum response than the Healer forums ever got, so perhaps healers have a better chance there?

More developer responses have happened in the localization and general discussion forums, so that can arguably create an image of some forums being looked at more than others; I’m not saying that’s objectively what’s happening, but that people in this thread were surprised to see a rare developer response somewhere in the forums kind of helps illustrate my point.

Posting about this in the aforementioned localization thread technically isn’t off-topic either since it was talking about a problem that was introduced by the Kaiten changes and thus could also be solved via obsolescence by reverting some changes.

Removing Kaiten was a fundamental mistake. Kenki management has now been criminally dumbed down.

Basically, Kaiten was the only thing that prevented a player from wanting to expend every bit of kenki whenver they had enough to use. The decision making on using abilities is now nonexistent.

My management of Kenki on samurai is now:

Getting a programmable mouse with a large amount of buttons on the side panel (In my case, the razer naga, which has 12 buttons that can be reprogrammed to whatever you want. In my case, I bind them to the numlock 1-10, - and =). The layout of this mouse looks like this:

1 2 3
4 5 6
7 8 9
0 - =

I bind my keys in two separate patterns, one for single target, and one for aoe.

1 is bound to Senei
4 is bound to Shiten
7 is bound to Shoha
0 is bound to Ikishoten

3 is bound to Guren
6 is bound to Kyuten
9 is bound to Shoha II
= is bound to Ikishoten

Whenever I hit 25 Kenki (or just whenever, I basically spam it) I run my thumb down one of these lines, depending on single target or aoe. If I do it in this order, then it will make sure that they are used in this order, depending on cooldown. All of Samurai's class resource abilities, I am able to absent-mindedly ignore, and do on auto pilot. There's no punishment for mismanaging Kenki, besides letting it overflow I guess. But it never WILL overflow, if you just use it as soon as you hit 25.

The removal of Kaiten was such a fundamental mistake, that ripped away at the core of Samurai's meter management. It needs to be added back in, in order to correct this issue. Is Samurai easier to play now? Yes. Is it still fun? Not as much.

I don't know a single samurai player who likes this change. If they really wanted to remove skill bloat, there had to be something better to remove. Without Kaiten, there is fundamentally zero active management of Kenki, that can't be done by rolling your finger down a line, without even paying attention to what you're doing.

Above all, I can tell that the person who decided on this change was not a samurai player. It was someone looking at the raw numbers, and thinking that it was a superfluous skill, when it defined Samurai's kenki usage. Now, the class feels fundamentally incomplete.

I can accept that possibly, with future reworks in mind, kaiten couldve been a limiting factor in job design. Possibly. But to remove a key ability, mid-patch cycle, say nothing and replace it with nothing for "a future rework" is unacceptable. Kaiten was the only thing you had to think about. How easy do they want it to be?

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Originally Posted by Lustre

I can accept that possibly, with future reworks in mind, kaiten couldve been a limiting factor in job design. Possibly. But to remove a key ability, mid-patch cycle, say nothing and replace it with nothing for "a future rework" is unacceptable. Kaiten was the only thing you had to think about. How easy do they want it to be?

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Have you seen SMN? I think that alone basically answers any questions on where they intend to go with job design for future iterations.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

Have you seen SMN? I think that alone basically answers any questions on where they intend to go with job design for future iterations.

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Summoner was fun to play before but i dont touch it now cause its braindead and unrewarding. If more of the jobs I like to play get that same treatment I can see myself quitting in 7.0.