job balancing discussion (1.22a-hotfix)

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Originally Posted by Reinheart

No they just listed that way because the actions are learned from that class/job.
For the classes one still can be used by the Jobs as usual with those new changing coming in today's hotfix.



Right now, still might be useless. With level cap increase to 60-65 with new actions/abilities from own/other class/job might turn the game around for PLD.
We only see the game right now unlike devs looking at the big picture.

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I agree although I wish they'd left WAR alone I was just getting to use it more lately. BTW Reinheart, love the new signature.

I am astonished at the quantity of posters in this thread that are under the impression that Bard was somehow subpar DD.

Perhaps I keep getting lucky with my Bards, because the Bards I've partied with have often beaten out melee for DPS, sometimes by a very wide margin. (o.0 ) I am not sure where people get the idea that Bard is lacking.

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Really SE? I leveled Archer not to be Bard. Fine you made it into a bard and then you made it that only one song can be active at a time unless you have 2 or more bards in the party. And now this crap. Seriously give us a ranged DD job and a pure support job. Ranger in FFXI is a really good dd. You can improve bard by making two songs stick. That alone will make up for the things that you have done wrong. A really good brd most definitely can DD.

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Ranger was broken for many years. More broken classes is not what we need for the future. And yes, a Bard can be DD. (>.> ) Bloody good DD at that.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Here's the problem with that logic - you're assuming Archer has no other worthile functions besides damage.

This flatly isn't true. Their unique support functions alone solidify their position and the fact that having two insures both buffs being used encourages stacking - something that should NOT be encouraged at all.

Adding 'On par' Damage functions on top of that, and you've a class that's silently OP.

The payment for arrows (And please, cry to me about your arrow costs, when I can pay 4-6k a piece for my top tier javlins. And yes, I use them. They make all the difference in a pinch.) is the cost for your relatively safe damage.

IMO Bards should not be contenders for 'on par' damage. They should be on a tier slightly below, as they offer more to damage than just their own performance. Unless of course, you want to take a "Cleric's Stance" approach to all this.

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2 things:- 1 if i was crying about arrow cost i wouldnt play the class. but it still rings true that there should be a justifiable reason for the expense. and if it was simply range people would simply take mages. the expense is what you typically pay to be able to do good damage at a decent range.

2: like the guy below you i levelled archer to be a dd class... and in se's logic of trying to make classes viable alongside jobs one would assume that if i wanted to be pure dd i could simply roll effectively as an archer and say screw bard. but waittttttttt the nerf kills an archers damage dealing to and an archer offers no buffs to the party as such. thus without bard songs an archer offers nothing.

without the lightshot spam between skills an archers damage falls a long way short of almost every dd class/job in the game

so the very first line of what you said is wrong bacause an archer has no other worthwhile functions other than its damage

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

I am astonished at the quantity of posters in this thread that are under the impression that Bard was somehow subpar DD.

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it wasn't a sub par dd but with the recent change that prevents lightshot spam between combos there damage dealing just got knocked down a lot.....

I wonder if they nerfed the light shot to make more of an impact bow delay.. just a thought.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

2: like the guy below you i levelled archer to be a dd class...

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I originally leveled Gladiator with the promise of being able to choose between DPS and tanking. Unfortunately, when management changed hands so did the promises, and it seems Yoshida and his team want Gladiator/Paladin as tank, and Archer/Bard as support.

I feel your pain, though.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

IMO Bards should not be contenders for 'on par' damage. They should be on a tier slightly below, as they offer more to damage than just their own performance. Unless of course, you want to take a "Cleric's Stance" approach to all this.

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Anything below the mythical 5% is going to turn them into second class citizens. Nerfing damage is not going to help the class in popularity, because "killing enemies with bow&arrow while buffing allies with songs" has a nicer ring than "song spam bitch with notably lesser overall DPS".

Less popular but still important when balancing encounters then creates the princess BRD again.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

2 things:- 1 if i was crying about arrow cost i wouldnt play the class.

2: like the guy below you i levelled archer to be a dd class... and in se's logic of trying to make classes viable alongside jobs one would assume that if i wanted to be pure dd i could simply roll effectively as an archer and say screw bard. but waittttttttt the nerf kills an archers damage dealing to and an archer offers no buffs to the party as such. thus without bard songs an archer offers nothing.

without the lightshot spam between skills an archers damage falls a long way short of almost every dd class/job in the game
so the very first line of what you said is wrong bacause an archer as no other worthwhile functions other than its damage

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You're exadurating your nerf desprately.

If all you want to do is be a ranged DD, don't switch to Bard. Archer gains more damage functions as its class than it gains damage abilities as it's job, Bard. If your Linkshell isn't cool with it, find another linkshell. There are 8 party slots and 7 classes/jobs.

Otherwise, Cry more that you can't weave faster than a Melee Job. Every single one of our skills delay our melee attacks, while yours was left untouched, safe at a distance, with support functions to boot. You're not suffering any more of a loss than what every other damage class in the game has to suffer with and you're over-blowing the impact on your damage because you want vindication for your hurt feelings.

Sorry, but I have no sympathy for that sort of whining.

You have damage at range. You do not need clear line of sight in many cases, you do not get impeded by pathing barriers (small, impassible ledges) and you do already have an insured party slot, regardless of your feelings about being a Bard. You will still have good damage against enemies after this patch, as what you lost is also offset by the critical attack changes, and the fact that your main statistic is dexterity.

Honestly, you don't have problems, don't try to make it like this balance tweak made one for you.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Anything below the mythical 5% is going to turn them into second class citizens.

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When their popularity dips below Dragoon, we can talk. But I warn you, that'll never happen.
"Princess Mentality." Will likely make a return regardless, because they again circumvent MP balancing issues. Making a mountain out of a molehill like this is the least of the worries. These guys are no-risk Corsairs - they shouldn't be able to match DPS with a dedicated DD job in any circumstance outside dropping their job's benefits for more Damage-orientating skills, and then, they can go ahead and compete for party slot like every other DD.

It's impossible for them to be regulated to "Song-Whore" given the game's and the jobs base mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

You're exadurating your nerf desprately.

If all you want to do is be a ranged DD, don't switch to Bard. Archer gains more damage functions as its class than it gains damage abilities as it's job, Bard. If your Linkshell isn't cool with it, find another linkshell. There are 8 party slots and 7 classes/jobs.

Otherwise, Cry more that you can't weave faster than a Melee Job. Every single one of our skills delay our melee attacks, while yours was left untouched, safe at a distance, with support functions to boot. You're not suffering any more of a loss than what every other damage class in the game has to suffer with and you're over-blowing the impact on your damage because you want vindication for your hurt feelings.

Sorry, but I have no sympathy for that sort of whining.

You have damage at range. You do not need clear line of sight in many cases, you do not get impeded by pathing barriers (small, impassible ledges) and you do already have an insured party slot, regardless of your feelings about being a Bard. You will still have good damage against enemies after this patch, as what you lost is also offset by the critical attack changes, and the fact that your main statistic is dexterity.

Honestly, you don't have problems, don't try to make it like this balance tweak made one for you.

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People like this make baby jesus cry.

Think of the changes that you get from Archer to Bard... One Weapon Skill, and you can only have one song active at a time. While other jobs got much more.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

You're exadurating your nerf desprately.

~snip~

Honestly, you don't have problems, don't try to make it like this balance tweak made one for you.

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Hyrist, you're my favorite person on the forums today.

Come on SE, like seriously... I am gonna test out Pld before I say anything but this is so far from a upgrade that it just almost makes me wanna stop playing. I luckily love my War but Pld gets no love...

Where is my Thf at... I need SATA....

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Originally Posted by dascorp

SATA....

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Blindside + Collusion.

Also
>implying FFXIV's THF will have SATA

WARRIOR:
I'd say maybe the nerf was too much, but I am really unsure. Seems WAR can still throw out good AOE damage and be the off tank like its original intention. Allows classes like MNK and DRG to equal.

BARD:
Didn't need anything really. Damage was fine on most enemies.

WHITE MAGE:
Not sure why they buffed Benediction, but whatever.

BLACK MAGE:
Again, didn't really need anything.

DRAGOON:
Much needed buff, though we can't be too sure until we all try it.

MONK:
I know that they needed to get out of animation lock faster, but a damage increase? I don't really see why....

PALADIN:
Really.....really........Hey maybe the damage will be a lot better, but really......

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Originally Posted by Zyph

Blindside + Collusion.

Also
>implying FFXIV's THF will have SATA

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I was just being a pld there for a second... and sarcastic... most needed yeah a thf or a /thf in ffxi to keep hate on them. Because SE didnt learn anything from ffxi... I miss my nin/drk

Archer has seen better days. I miss Rangers. ;_;

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Originally Posted by dascorp

I was just being a pld there for a second... and sarcastic... most needed yeah a thf or a /thf in ffxi to keep hate on them. Because SE didnt learn anything from ffxi... I miss my nin/drk

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NIN/DRK sounds like it would have been pretty fun, I loved playing DD NIN.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

Archer has seen better days. I miss Rangers. ;_;

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I miss my crossbow option
;_;

Just logged on. It's hard fending off all of these Endgame Event invites as a Paladin. People see that extra 50 HP and go nuts! Now I know how warriors used to feel... poor poor warriors.

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Originally Posted by Daku_Naito

WARRIOR:
I'd say maybe the nerf was too much, but I am really unsure. Seems WAR can still throw out good AOE damage and be the off tank like its original intention. Allows classes like MNK and DRG to equal.

BARD:
Didn't need anything really. Damage was fine on most enemies.

WHITE MAGE:
Not sure why they buffed Benediction, but whatever.

BLACK MAGE:
Again, didn't really need anything.

DRAGOON:
Much needed buff, though we can't be too sure until we all try it.

MONK:
I know that they needed to get out of animation lock faster, but a damage increase? I don't really see why....

PALADIN:
Really.....really........Hey maybe the damage will be a lot better, but really......

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WAR was nerfed a bit too much imo, although the buff to whirlwind was quite nice, I just disagree with the Recast Whirlwind has.

And for Whm, Benediction would'nt hit anyone not immediately up your own arse, it was a much needed improvement to increase the range.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

When their popularity dips below Dragoon, we can talk. But I warn you, that'll never happen.

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Considering I've seen as many BRDs as I've seen Dragoons, we'll see how this affects the trends.

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"Princess Mentality" Will likely make a return regardless, because they again circumvent MP balancing issues.

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Right, but doing something that might discourage people from playing the job related to MP regen is a stupid idea that negatively affects dynamics between players. Maybe if MP had been drastically changed, then BRD nerfed could I possibly be more receptive to the way things were handled.

I can admit BRD at least is doing something instead of running around spamming songs with no actual contributions to combat like in FFXI, but I'm not exactly comfortable with this direction. Mind you, I don't play BRD, but I do play a job that's sadly dependent on them (GLA/PLD), so anything that might make less people want to play BRD is a very bad thing.

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These guys are no-risk Corsairs - they shouldn't be able to match DPS with a dedicated DD job in any circumstance outside dropping their job's benefits for more Damage-orientating skills, and then, they can go ahead and compete for party slot like every other DD.

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The damage is the hook. You weaken or remove the hook and things get ugly.

even with this hot fix pld will still be lacking when compare to war flatout! warrior has all the neccesscary abilities to preform its role, and when using its af warrior does even better. pld on the other hand doesn't have all the neccessary abilities to perfrom its role (or the way the abilities should be) and when using af thier really isn't too much of a difference. SE boosting pld ws dmg a bit and making its hp equal to gla ain't gonna fix the problem with pld.

I have said this few times in other threads and posts! PLD needs to have cover and outmanuvear fixed/changed completely, currently they are thrash. i have tanked/kited many times on pld and warrior also but the main problem is pld has very little access to regen mp(mp = hate point simple). An example i said over and over outmanuvear needs to be changed when you use it you raise your shield (like guard did before auto block) for 30sec or whatevers SE desires, in that time period u gain/regen a set amount of mp for each block! not in proportion like it is now change it to so say each block is 40mp. when you gain mp in proportion of dmg taken its only good for big hits, but a smart pld doesn't want the take big hit since we got little hp pool anyways and when we take little dmg the proportion back is useless. you could maybe gain mp in proportion of dmg taken from a block using af and that should be maybe the feet armour. It would be great to have your shield up like that for a set time, you take little dmg and get fair mp back and with af even more thus allowing you to do more holy succor on ppl keeping them alive and building/maintaining hate.

Cover then needs to be changed to allow pld to protect a party member at all times( not like it is now few seconds) with no duration timer only a recast timer. what i mean is that pld uses cover ability that selected party member is now protected while remaining within 8 yalms of the pld, all dmg the covered target would take gets transfered to the pld thus keeping the member alive. Also with this new cover as long as the covered target is with 8 yalms of pld, the pld will constantly regen mp, period! if you use your af then you also get 25% mp in proportion of dmg taken. enimty doesn't need to be transfered to the pld by the covered target since mp=hate from holy succor so cover thus is good for meat shield so to say and more mp for pld to heal others, build hate and keep himself alive. like i said cover would only have a recast timer and no duration timer of effect so 15seconds for recast timer this would allow pld to protect one person and right before someone dies, etc you can switch targets and protect ppl when needed.

that would be pretty bad ass to have pld be able to do that(switching cover from one perosn to another pretty fast) cover your ass when you need it the most and heal you along with others since he keeps on protecting ppl(you) and regen mp. When i said eariler about outmanuvaer giving set amount of mp back for each block maybe SE can be creative a make shields not only have a auto block rating but a standard of how much mp they get back while under outmanuvaer effect. example just to throw out thier shield #1 auto block rate 60% and 45mp back from outmanuvear shield #2 auto block 75% and 20mp back from outmanuvaer this creates a trade off, higher auto block for less dmg overtime with smaller mp gain back or less auto block taking more dmg overtime and more mp back (aka more hate HOLY SUCCOR).

And thier is also a few more tweaks pld needs like with divine veil, should be able to heal yourself and get that effect and it should last longer anyways but using the af makes it even better. shorter ws recast, more combos that include sheild bash and war drum, more defense, better acc (pld does little dmg in the first place why make it miss), etc. And im also trying to point out that pld needs to have these abilites already the af just makes it even better exactly how it works for warrior.

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When executing WS as Archer/Bard, the recast timer for Shot will become active.

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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.gif

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Originally Posted by Rau

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.gif

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWaLxFIVX1s

looks awesome

testing out the epic pld update..I got a whole 10 extra HP when I went from GLA to PLD!

SE got to be joking with this right? Please tell me we are being trolled.

Could you please stop focusing on making content in this game so aoe focused?

Had some hands on time with PLD since patching. Riot Blade and Goring Blade do about 100 damage more, and my HP is slightly higher than before.

I know there's the whole "Be happy about any buff your job gets" but this is highly underwhelming thus far. Further playing will dictate the full usefulness of the update for PLD.

I would wait to see how badly WAR is nerfed to QQ about PLD.

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Originally Posted by Babydoll

testing out the epic pld update..I got a whole 10 extra HP when I went from GLA to PLD!

SE got to be joking with this right? Please tell me we are being trolled.

Could you please stop focusing on making content in this game so aoe focused?

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How much HP did you lose before, you say you're getting +10 HP but in reality you're getting x+10 where x is how much you lost when you use to change to PLD lol.

well drg sure became awsome i just tested it Power surge 3 gave me like 348 attack (it takes really long real long)
Impulse vorpal and chaos are amazing now i can excute them without fear of acc, ring of talons for some reason does the same damage as doom spike so am guessing doom spike is modified by str or pie and Ring of talons is modified by Attack.
jump is really nice.
the only downside is you have to excute alot of ws in order to get powersurge3 to pop (and no there is no animation lock for it)
this buff for drg is simply amazing really

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Originally Posted by Babydoll

testing out the epic pld update..I got a whole 10 extra HP when I went from GLA to PLD!

SE got to be joking with this right? Please tell me we are being trolled.

Could you please stop focusing on making content in this game so aoe focused?

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Nothing was written about an HP boost to PLD. Just that the HP is the same on PLD as it is GLA now. Which actually is and HP boost in a sense.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

Nothing was written about an HP boost to PLD. Just that the HP is the same on PLD as it is GLA now. Which actually is and HP boost in a sense.

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Haha yeah...I just wondering what SE is thinking when WAR has 4k+ HP and PLD has like lol3k..what is the incentive to use PLD over WAR ,SE? :O

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Originally Posted by Babydoll

Haha yeah...I just wondering what SE is thinking when WAR has 4k+ HP and PLD has like lol3k..what is the incentive to use PLD over WAR ,SE? :O

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Our amazing DEF score, obviously!!

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Originally Posted by Alerith

Our amazing DEF score, obviously!!

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Hahaha how could I have missed that!!?!?

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Originally Posted by Babydoll

Also where is the PLD aoe? How are they useful in this game when everything is aoe oriented?

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PLD/gla has a physical AoE --> Wardrum. However, the move is half (some) damage and half "Massive Enmity" (or so the description says ><) taunt against all foes it hits. Although, seems as though it needs a boost in one or both feilds (+damage and/or +emity).

Dragoon is so beyond the point of OP it's not funny.

I have 672 base attack and when Power Surge 3 is up i'm at 1,018 before food.

DRG tank?????

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

Dragoon is so beyond the point of OP it's not funny.

I have 672 base attack and when Power Surge 3 is up i'm at 1,018 before food.

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That actually puts it on par with other DD then, not overpowered because level correction is still a bastard.

Rampage
<Before>
Increases your attack speed and power for each physical attack against you, and restores HP for each critical hit you land.
<After>
Increases your attack speed and parry rating for each physical attack against you, and restores HP for each critical hit you land.

I could have sworn the original Rampart description said:
"Increases your attack speed and [defense] for each physical attack against you, and restores HP for each critical hit you land."

Hmm... Wait, what's the deal with Rampage?

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Originally Posted by NOC_NA

<Before>
Increases your attack speed and power for each physical attack against you, and restores HP for each critical hit you land.
<After>
Increases your attack speed and parry rating for each physical attack against you, and restores HP for each critical hit you land.
・Effect now wears off at a faster rate.

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It read defense before today's maintenance, not attack power.

Initially after the class reforms that came with 1.20:

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Originally Posted by NOC_JP

Increases your attack speed and power for each physical attack against you, and restores HP for each critical hit you land. Effect fades upon moving or reuse. Cannot be used simultaneously with Berserk.

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It read power.

Then in 1.21:

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Originally Posted by NOC_JP

・Increases even more defense with each hit taken.
・Effect now fades over time and ends on reuse, and no longer resets upon moving.

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The in-game text then read defense! Was that a mistake, or was it changed to defense?