Why are newer players more abusive towards mentors?

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

They wouldn't be correct tbf it's absolutely reportable to kick someone over an icon/title

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Thing is, you need proof that is why they kicked. If they don't say anything, there is a high chance they will use the "difference in playstyle" BS excuse.

Honestly, I tend to forget I even have the burger king crown on.

Sometimes, very very occasionally, someone will try to take the piss. Most could use a bit of mentoring on their bants. :p

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

You're the one being toxic when you won't acknowledge that many of us have had some very bad mentor experiences over the years and so have legitimate reasons for feeling the way we do.

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xD yes. I’m the one being toxic by asking players to treat each other with decency unless someone goes out of their way to individually be rude. What a horrible person I must be for not engaging in hate mongering because others say we should.

You must live in a sad world if you need to blame entire groups of people for a bad experience you had. Mail person left the mailbox open and it got wet? That’s it… we need to hate ALL mail people now.

It still amuses me how this system is way better in WoW than it is here. Here they give you a shiny crown and mount for participation. That was a mistake. It shouldn't have a reward, it should only be there for those who want to help for the sake of helping.

In WoW you don't get a crown, you don't get anything for opting into the service, and also it's easier to unlock. All you get is access to a chat channel where new players ask questions, the ability to identify new players in the world that nobody else can see (they have a baby murloc icon floating over their heads), and you get a flag icon over your head (i think) that only new players can see, also these icons are visible in chat, but only to people who are in the network.

I've seen more helpful advice being doled out there than i ever have in the newcomer chat here. I think at best the mentors on this server just use it to talk to eachother and not the new players, but i've seen some weird stuff.

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

The problem is that almost every player especially the older ones have multiple bad experiences with mentors. And at some point you can't explain that anymore with bad luck, bad mentors are not punished enough or get banned from the program so they run amok and taint the whole system over the years. It would need better regulations on SE side to combat that but at this point the crown is so stained with toxic waste that i fear people will never see the mentor system anymore as what it should've been.

Mentors became a meme for a reason and once you became a meme there is no coming back from it, you can't undo the reputation that has build up over years. Best to stay away from the crown and help players without branding yourself.

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This has probably been said already but it's survivor bias. I used to (and will probably start it again) spreadsheet every mentor encounter I had in the game. Did it for months. Mentors are OVERWHELMINGLY (quantity) better than average and nice/helpfull. It's just that when someone isn't, it stands out and then that's all people remember and post about.

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Originally Posted by Thorio

Gauging your replies, you seem to be somewhat toxic as well. No offense.

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You're welcome to your opinion. For the most part I'm very easy going and helpful myself when people ask.

But I've had far too many negative experiences with mentors with bad attitudes and even worse behavior. I absolutely get angry every time mentors whine about how they're treated when they don't stop to consider how mentors are treating other players. Mentors don't get the excuse of "we're just normal players". Part of the program is the player agrees to be an exemplar of player etiquette. If the mentor can't do that, they should be setting aside their crown until they can.

When mentors fail to clean up things like Siren's NN "After Dark" where the mentors intentionally spread toxicity and harass anyone who complains, then they shouldn't be surprised when toxicity comes back to bite them.

So feel free to call me toxic if you want. I'm what mentors have sown with their toxic behavior.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

xD yes. I’m the one being toxic by asking players to treat each other with decency unless someone goes out of their way to individually be rude. What a horrible person I must be for not engaging in hate mongering because others say we should.

You must live in a sad world if you need to blame entire groups of people for a bad experience you had. Mail person left the mailbox open and it got wet? That’s it… we need to hate ALL mail people now.

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I do need to apologize to you if you though I was trying to call you toxic. I wasn't.

I was calling the poster I first quoted toxic for being disrespectful of the feelings of those who have had multiple negative experiences with mentors. I was quoting your statement about reaping what is sown to point out that mentors are now reaping what was sown through toxic mentor behavior.

No one should have to ask players to treat one another with basic courtesy and decency. It should be automatic.

It's a shame that so many mentors, who are supposed to be exemplars of player etiquette, are the ones failing to treat others with decency.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

You're welcome to your opinion. For the most part I'm very easy going and helpful myself when people ask.

But I've had far too many negative experiences with mentors with bad attitudes and even worse behavior. I absolutely get angry every time mentors whine about how they're treated when they don't stop to consider how mentors are treating other players. Mentors don't get the excuse of "we're just normal players". Part of the program is the player agrees to be an exemplar of player etiquette. If the mentor can't do that, they should be setting aside their crown until they can.

When mentors fail to clean up things like Siren's NN "After Dark" where the mentors intentionally spread toxicity and harass anyone who complains, then they shouldn't be surprised when toxicity comes back to bite them.

So feel free to call me toxic if you want. I'm what mentors have sown with their toxic behavior.

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Then I don't really get where you're trying to go with this? You say mentors are toxic (which is an exaggeration imo, mentors are just players like everyone else and of course you will have trolls, Lemme give one example, in my server a mentor timed out a sprout for using the f word in a non-personal attack way then other mentors were quick to reprimand his/her action and that they should have warned about foul language instead of outright kicking the sprout out of nn) but you admit you are toxic and you're fine with being the very thing you criticize? I'm only getting the "pot calling the kettle black" vibes here, sorry.

If Mentors are supposed to be the example of a model player in terms of behavior, then they should have their mentor status revoked for a time when they break the TOS and harass other players or cause issues. That would definitely clean up the image of mentors if the bad apples have their crown removed.

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Originally Posted by Thorio

Then I don't really get where you're trying to go with this? You say mentors are toxic (which is an exaggeration imo, mentors are just players like everyone else and of course you will have trolls, Lemme give one example, in my server a mentor timed out a sprout for using the f word in a non-personal attack way then other mentors were quick to reprimand his/her action and that they should have warned about foul language instead of outright kicking the sprout out of nn) but you admit you are toxic and you're fine with being the very thing you criticize? I'm only getting the "pot calling the kettle black" vibes here, sorry.

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I never said I'm toxic or that I'm fine with being toxic. I said you're welcome to your opinion. l can't argue against your feelings as they are valid based on your personal experience.

Just as my feelings are valid based on my personal experience.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

If Mentors are supposed to be the example of a model player in terms of behavior, then they should have their mentor status revoked for a time when they break the TOS and harass other players or cause issues. That would definitely clean up the image of mentors if the bad apples have their crown removed.

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I think they do, but I also don't think it happens enough because most people don't bother reporting mentors who are definitely deserving of a vacation from the game for their behavior(like the ones who instantly berate/degrade sprouts who DF queue for EX trials before they even finish watching the cutscene, or who are trying to do mechanics but failing them a couple times).

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

No one should have to ask players to treat one another with basic courtesy and decency. It should be automatic.

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Hey on this we agree! Thanks! And I do know not all mentors, and players at large are pleasant to deal with. All we can do is try to be the best version of ourselves. Regardless of others.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

If Mentors are supposed to be the example of a model player in terms of behavior, then they should have their mentor status revoked for a time when they break the TOS and harass other players or cause issues. That would definitely clean up the image of mentors if the bad apples have their crown removed.

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On my sprout alt, the one time I talked in NN about another mentor who berated me in a dungeon, I had asked about going about reporting a mentor, was harassed in whispers by multiple mentors, and kicked out of the Novice Network. I was laughed at, and told that SE would do nothing about it all, and was told I'd be reported.

I had saved all the logs too, by the way.

Never again. If SE won't take the time to actually curate, and moderate this system, it needs to go.

Just remove the rewards (stick them in with commendations), come down heavier on the trolls and there wont be an issue with mentors. I mean it worked in FFXI we got an M next to our name and that's it.

I didn't even know there were mount rewards. I just like helping people. Sometimes I just queue up for Rath EX and do a few runs of that, cause people seem to run away from that in MR, like it's super hard or something... It's nice to get people who do the DF their clears.

The only thing that weirds me out about the mentor system now is mentors refusing to make use of the blacklist feature and would prefer to fight fiercely against an opinion that clearly upsets them in NN. We're not talking about opinions that are breaking ToS or skirting it. We're talking topics that you see here on the forums that inevitably cause friction like parser discussion, healer dps, tank pulls, etc. At some point, one mentor will call the other toxic for it, then escalate and the other might just do the same. When a third party now (like me) asks "why don't you just use the blacklist feature if you don't like what the person is saying", nine out of ten times, the response is "I gotta protect the sprouts" (paraphrasing here but I kid you not, they usually bring up that it's for the sprouts).

Same people who claim they can discuss different opinions about the game calmly but they clearly can't and they end up arguing ceaselessly with the exact same mentors who have had the exact same opinion about something the day before but they gotta fight the good fight for the sprouts. And they'll do it solidly for several minutes, all the while sprouts and returners just end up asking "how do I leave the channel?" Comical and tragic at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Livilda

This is essentially what it boils down to. It's not the status (though the crown has never helped in NA/EU), and not even the intent of earnest mentors - rather, it's the assumption that mentors should be perfect at everything and simply aren't, and at the root of that assumption is that in order to get the crown, you have to clear every current extreme, and the fact that Mentor Roulette routinely puts you into EX fights. And it's simply unnecessary. The point of the Mentor system should be nothing more than to to help people who are new to the game and simply don't understand where to find something, or how their class/job is played, how basic mechanics/systems work. Mentors shouldn't need to be - nor should they be assumed to be - fonts of knowledge over every single fight and every single aspect of the game. If you're going up against an extreme trial (and - somehow - you're not in a PF or static) it should be assumed that you already know everything you need to know about the basics, and therefore you shouldn't need mentor guidance.

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You don't even have to unlock the Mentor Roulette to be a mentor. These are different things.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

The only thing that weirds me out about the mentor system now is mentors refusing to make use of the blacklist feature and would prefer to fight fiercely against an opinion that clearly upsets them in NN. We're not talking about opinions that are breaking ToS or skirting it. We're talking topics that you see here on the forums that inevitably cause friction like parser discussion, healer dps, tank pulls, etc. At some point, one mentor will call the other toxic for it, then escalate and the other might just do the same. When a third party now (like me) asks "why don't you just use the blacklist feature if you don't like what the person is saying", nine out of ten times, the response is "I gotta protect the sprouts" (paraphrasing here but I kid you not, they usually bring up that it's for the sprouts).

Same people who claim they can discuss different opinions about the game calmly but they clearly can't and they end up arguing ceaselessly with the exact same mentors who have had the exact same opinion about something the day before but they gotta fight the good fight for the sprouts. And they'll do it solidly for several minutes, all the while sprouts and returners just end up asking "how do I leave the channel?" Comical and tragic at the same time.

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Hunt train drama is my favorite NN topic

I think one of the main reasons we see a lot more people bully mentors is because of the many videos meme-ing on mentors and then streamers watching said videos on their streams and their audience thus getting exposed to them and thinking it's an accepted norm without even using any of their critical thinking skills. People making meme videos about mentors and then streamers spreading said videos is really not helping anything. It's actually while following one of Asmon's streams back in the day in which he watched a video about the "hierarchy of FF14" that I realized how big of an impact this has had. Ever since that day, people have been spamming "Haha! Mentor!" "lul, mentor" "Mentor" "Mentor chat" etc. even when someone is saying something that's correct or is trying to help or when a person is saying nonsense or being a jerk while not necessarily being an actual mentor.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I never said I'm toxic or that I'm fine with being toxic. I said you're welcome to your opinion. l can't argue against your feelings as they are valid based on your personal experience.

Just as my feelings are valid based on my personal experience.

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Tell me you're toxic without telling me you're toxic.
But heh, you got a point, sorry your experience with mentors has been so bad and traumatizing. It's been the opposite for me and I think it helps that I don't hold mentors to lofty standards. Who knows, it might change in the future but I surely hope not.

I've had people be mean for the sake of being mean cause I have a sick BK crown on but I've also had people say "Ok now THIS is what a mentor should be" once they get done with any content I've done with them.

It all literally comes down to "Some people are dicks while others are not" I choose to let mean comments roll off my shoulders cause I have better things to do...

Like their mom.

No I kid. She's great.

When I see someone with the burger king crown on I automatically assume they are either an asshole or bad at the game and most of the time I'm right. So if you're wondering why sentiment against mentors is poor, well... you only have most other mentors to blame.

I just took the crown off after someone started called me a "bad" mentor for not burning DPS LB3 immediately before a mechanic I know is prone to causing wipes.

They claimed they were joking after I explained my reasoning to them in the aftermath, but it's hard to differentiate genuine sarcasm from backpedaling sometimes.

The thing with bad mentors is sometimes they might just be having a bad day (I know I do sometimes) but the really toxic ones? Those ones will get memed on or berated, but it sucks that any and all mentors will get treated like dirt even though they're legitimately trying to help sprouts. I did get a few instances of people being mean because I am a mentor. Hasn't stopped me from wearing my PvE mentor crown, and I try my best to help out in mentor roulettes. Honestly? Yeah, I'm doing it for the mount but I'm also trying to help out with clearing duties, even if it's Ramuh EX.

Most of my interactions regarding the crown have been normal. Only time I had a scuffle for it was when I called someone out for griefing the tanks by convincing them not to LB3 for A12N big attack right at the end of the adds phase (despite me having told them to) which had griefer scoffing at me for the trade crown left to my PC name.

Regarding the tone of the post. I'm not going to blame the bad apples for setting the stereotype but for being bad people. It's up to each person to let their prejudices cloud their judgement on people they really don't know. Let's stop pretending there is any context where treating other players with prejudice is justifiable, regardless of the experience.

A good mentor will handle a butt with grace and a pinch of repartee to smooth things over kupo <3

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

On the flipside to this, why are most mentors narcissistic douchebags?

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Because most mentors I see aren't mentors because they want to be nice and helpful people. They're mentors because they want something out of it.. all about them..

I tend to find the most helpful people aren't mentors haha. Kinda backwards but there you go..

Sometimes cour blindness can make the occasional mechanic difficult to see. And when someone is helpful enough to point it out. Its rarely the guy with the crown.

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Originally Posted by Kristale

When I see someone with the burger king crown on I automatically assume they are either an asshole or bad at the game and most of the time I'm right. So if you're wondering why sentiment against mentors is poor, well... you only have most other mentors to blame.

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So, you'll harass/berate a mentor who is generally trying to be helpful, because...every single one is an asshole? Good to know. You must be fun in duties when you get a genuine mentor player. Hope none have reported you for harassment.

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Originally Posted by Breezelyn

So, you'll harass/berate a mentor who is generally trying to be helpful, because...every single one is an asshole? Good to know. You must be fun in duties when you get a genuine mentor player. Hope none have reported you for harassment.

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I never said I berate anyone in duties, let alone mentors. I usually just say howdy and go on with the dungeon. This is all passive observation. I'm pleasantly surprised when there's a mentor that actually makes an effort to be a mentor, it's just those are in the vast vast minority.

i think some players just dont like being told what to do lol.

I mean NN is a cesspool that is nothing but mentors bickering so....

For real though there is nothing about mentors that deserve respect, as others have said many many people view the crown as just another thing to grind out. They have no intention of ever helping anyone and are only in it for the reward. Sure there are some who do want to help but they are vastly outnumbered by the idiots.

Turning on my mentor icon is my way to say: ”Y’know all those mentors meme? Yep! I’m gonna be awfully mediocre! Don’t expect much out of me!”

It’s easier to get around when people don’t think of you.

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Originally Posted by EagleDynamics

i think some players just dont like being told what to do lol.

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Pretty much. Personally I follow my own set of rules with or without crown:
• People mess up, but we clear anyway: silence
• People mess up, and they ask why: explanation
• People mess up, and we wipe once or more: explanation

Even then, if it comes down to the 3rd case, I’ll be very blunt. Take my advice cause our previous approach clearly does not work & it’s costing the party’s additional time, or I’ll be more than happy to let a willing soul replace me while I eat my 30m penalty.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Even then, if it comes down to the 3rd case, I’ll be very blunt. Take my advice cause our previous approach clearly does not work & it’s costing the party’s additional time, or I’ll be more than happy to let a willing soul replace me while I eat my 30m penalty.

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ugh I tried to explain fights sometimes and all i got in response was: "ill play the game how i want to thank you very much." thinking back on it i shouldve just ate the leaver penalty too.

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Originally Posted by Eris4494

I haven't used my mentor status for few years. You just get mocked if try to explain a mechanic to a duty.

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some players are just so dumb and toxic its insane.

Personally I find that most people are receptive to tips when I explain mechanics in mentor roulettes, but what I find really annoying are the people (usually a sprout or returning player) not reading chat and they constantly mess up. A new player having an attitude and not liking being told what to do is just as bad as the toxic mentors.

General speaking from what everyone said. Some people just dont want help while others are scared to ask or are shy but that being said. I have gone through that and its not fun but like they say it happens i can block the person hope that they take some of my advice an roll with it either way they are no longer my problem someone else problem.