Samurai changes are unacceptable in the current iteration

Back with nothing new to add, except to say I still want the changes reverted.

It's been really hard to get used to the VOID of not having Kaiten before any iajitsu and i still do not understand the reasoning behind it. Now everytime i feel a hole in the rotation i have to fill it with Shinten andit doesn't feel fun. Worst of all is that these changes come 2 weeks before Ultimate and i don't really have the time to gear another job that isn't MNK, let alone how my static feels behind the party composition.

GIVE US KAITEN BACK

Its so bad so far, please squareenix give me back my fave class, im so depressed with these changes. the dopamine hits from those 90K back to back namikiris is gone and so is just the overall identity of the job as this powerhouse melee that builds up to these big hitters. It doesn't feel the same.......

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Originally Posted by Quor

Seems my previous post was almost prophetic. First the insane job changes for SAM, now a completely borked housing lottery system. Just what the hell is going on over there?

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I feel like Endwalker stands at risk of being another of the devs blunders rather than their supposed magnum opus the longer it goes on. Not even sure Island Sanctuary is even going to be functional on arrival, especially given the near complete silence on it.

To the uninitiated, abrupt and dramatic gameplay shift in FFXIV isn't a new problem in 6.1. They've been around for years, Bard got shafted hard in 3.0 and it took them 2 years. 2. Years. To fix their own damn game.

All I'm saying is we're probably looking at similar timeframe if they're this adamant on not reverting back to 6.08. That's a strong enough reason to consider unsubbing in my eyes.

I'm not going to lie, this was the last straw for me since this is literally the job I waited for, poured thousands and thousands of hours into, and I am heavily considering it. If they are firm this is how they want to go, I'll refuse, even if there is nothing better to replace it. I won't support a company who doesn't care. The game is absolutely amazing in so many ways, but it becomes less and less what players want and more what developers want.

I've tried several DPS jobs and this is the only one I've really clicked with from day one. DRG is close, but I can't really get a good feel for how it plays because the kit feels so incomplete at 56, compared to SAM's out of the box at 50. I don't feel motivated to level DRG to 90 knowing that it will feel awful to play in synced content where SAM would still feel "complete" even if some of the capstone abilities were missing.

If these changes aren't reverted, I dunno how much longer I can stick with the game. Outside of MSQ the only thing I do is chip away at omni-crafting. SAM is the lens through which I experience the majority of the content in this game, but it is no longer fun to play. If button bloat is a problem, why not consolidate some actions in the way that Namikiri already has been? Why do we need two versions of Shoha, or both Guren and Senei? Shoha II could be a trait that adds AoE falloff damage to Shoha. Senei could be a trait that buffs the single-target damage of Guren, with Guren just adjusted however it needs to be in terms of potency to compensate.

I'm also still feeling the sting of the loss of Seigan. Seeing how Chiten works in PvP, maybe we could try replacing Third Eye with a PvE version of it? Blocking attacks with Third Eye almost feels like a waste of time because it's only going to block 10% of a hit that's already going to hurt because we're a fairly squishy class. If we have to lose our "counterattack button" then can we at least have our "parry button" modified with a "counterattack" effect? It doesn't have to work exactly the same as the PvP Chiten, but Chiten has a cooler animation and feels more impactful to use. Third Eye is just kinda...there.

Bottom line, SAM just doesn't feel good to play right now. What drew me to it initially was that it's got the elegant bladework of a Jedi Knight, combined with big finishing moves that dish out huge spikes of damage. Midare Setsugekka blew my mind the first time I used it, because it felt every bit as impactful as its animation looked. The time spent going through the sequence of GCDs that led up to filling my whole Sen gauge felt meaningful. I no longer find myself eagerly looking forward to that magical moment when my cooldowns line up and I know the next enemy is about to be annihilated by two Midares, two Namikiris, and a Senei/Shoha. Sure, they still look cool, but the big spikes of juicy direct crit damage are gone. They feel like WoW spenders now.

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Originally Posted by Theodric_Thorne

Abbreviated.

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Wholeheartedly agree. There are so many suggestions they could have used, you can click a samurai post at random and they will offer a solution. And those solutions aren't even that different from each other in any community. It's almost as if most of us understood the good and bad points of the job we love. There's been a lot of talk in General about the incompetence lately, and I echo their sentiment. The solution at this point is to become so loud they can hear through their hands covering their ears. I hope everyone doesn't give up until we get an actual response on all the current issues this game has.

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Originally Posted by Quor

This is an important bit. I think the major root of the SAM "spike" damage problem lies in how we're forced to dump everything into a two minute window instead of having it spaced out more evenly. The lows are much lower if you don't get those juicy direct crits but the high's are much higher if you do, so this creates that damage variance they are so concerned about. The addition of charges on Kaeshi and Meikyo just locked SAM into a 120s rotation instead of it's 60s rotation from ShB, and since every raid buff now falls in that same 120s cycle there is so much more damage to be gained when a SAM pools charges for raid buffs.

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This. I just hate that they're being lazy about damage variances and are forcing all jobs to align in a 2 min burst window as if that will solve all their problems. It only makes it harder because now every job is competing for the best 2 min burst. I was drawn to SAM because of the consistent damage throughout (SB) and then it's being similar in ShB but EW has changed SAM into this job that revolves around a 2min and watching your Meikyo CD and making sure that you can get everything into your burst.

Like NIN's trick attack change, it was already aligning in their 2 min because trick is up every min but now they're just forcing it to line up and giving personal damage buffs. They're just taking all of the support dps jobs and making them in a selfish dps buffer hybrid and turning SAM (except BLM) into something that doesn't make sense.

I didn't play SB SAM for the huge boom every min, I played it because it's damage was sustained throughout and rewarding you with the boom when everything else lined up. I was even ok with ShB SAM but what it is now is a busy, messy rotation that isn't satisfying.

just want to add my voice again, hope they revert the changes and at least nice to see all the good input from SAM on here.

So there have been talks of changing Midare Setsugekka to a Multi-hit skill, similar to Dream Within a Dream. Some people seem open to the idea. Of course, all the suggestions given involve rolling back to 6.08 before changing Samurai further.

I'd like to add my own silly ideas (on top of incorporating some good ideas I've seen here), though it's mostly for fun while waiting for YoshiP's promised response.

Third Eye: Duration changed to 6 seconds. Changes to Higan on successful mitigation.
Higan: Grants a regen to self.
Seigan: Reintroduced. Now grants a Meditation stack on use. 55s CD.

Enhanced Tsubame-gaeshi: Removed
Enhanced Meikyo Shisui: Removed

Senei and Guren: Replaces Shinten and Kyuten when using Ikishoten.
Gyoten: Changed to allow use without a target. Dashes a set distance forward. 0 Cost outside of combat.
Meditate: (added) Grants and refreshes Fugetsu and Fuka periodically.
Ikishoten: (added) Changes to Ogi Namikiri on use.
Shoha: Shoha 2 merged into this skill with AOE fall off.
Tsubame-gaeshi: Changed to trait. Adds two extra attacks (lines) to Iaijutsus.

Hissatsu:Shinsoku: Weaponskill. 55s CD & 20(?) Kenki Cost. Sheathe your katana and concentrate, unleashing an upward strike followed by a side slash. Detonates Higanbana and grants 1 Meditation stack.
Hyosetsu: Your next Yukikaze will change to Hyosetsu after using Shoha. Upgraded Yukikaze with AOE falloff, does not require Hakaze.

It's definitely not made with any balance kept in mind. I also dislike the extra charges, so I made up some things that could replace them. Numbers would have to be adjusted accordingly, but the reasoning given by JP for Multi-hit attacks is so the numbers don't scale out of control. It also keeps to the theme of the naming conventions. At least that way, the Iaijutsus won't be hitting for the same as your regular rotation, which is frankly stupid.

In the end it's just for fun while we pass the time. Here's hoping to some news before the start of next week. Oh and most importantly, revert to 6.08 Samurai first and foremost. Have a good night.

I gotta say, i really like the idea of senei/guren replacing shinten/kyuten on ikishoten. Reduces button bloat while still keeping that whole bit working as is and doesn't obstruct anything in terms of rotation. We already get Ikishoten before those two bigger skill so it wouldn't require much in restructuring in terms of when we get the skills. Also, I vote for that Shoha change too since that is the most natural change they could've done when they introduced shoha 2. Still boggles the mind on why it's a separate button.

Also, i hope they don't keep sam at this state. Hope they say more about this soon because right now, pvp sam feels more like a sam (with the big skills having that ooomph factor in terms of damage) than pve sam with our wet noodle sticks.

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Originally Posted by NotReallyMistral

I gotta say, i really like the idea of senei/guren replacing shinten/kyuten on ikishoten. Reduces button bloat while still keeping that whole bit working as is and doesn't obstruct anything in terms of rotation. We already get Ikishoten before those two bigger skill so it wouldn't require much in restructuring in terms of when we get the skills.

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I mocked up an graphic for it a while back so if anyone hasn't seen, this it visualized
https://i.imgur.com/wFsE734.jpeg
Spread the idea, the devs should absolutely make the change, as it really doesn't have any negatives to it.
(Warrior already does it lol, imagine if inner chaos was it's own button, instead of replacing fell cleave under nascent chaos, how awful)
There's very little I can say anymore so just really want the idea to become more widespread lol.

Merging Senei and Guren is still a valid solution (albeit a lazy one), but this is even better than that since it removes 2 buttons instead of one, and removes drifting on the Ikishoten / Guren & Senei CD's.
It lowers the skill floor, but maintains the skill ceiling since those at the ceiling already are unlikely to let cd's drift.
Oh and this is excellent for making way for a new odd or even minute CD they could introduce next expansions if they wanted to as well.

Morning all. Today's hot topic in JP has been usage of controllers. I think for every one complaint about the amount of skills there were, another 4 were there to say otherwise. Continued discussion of Multi-hits and the reversion to 6.08. Emphasis on the strength of Iaijutsu being too low. AOE being a detriment in Instanced Dungeon. It's been steady feedback, so I hope we can do the same.

To the post above, yup! I saw your idea and liked it, it's a far better solution than whatever SE is trying to do.

Going to try and boost the signal of consolidating Shinten/Kyuten with the Shoha series abilities as put forth in another topic. Essentially upgrading Shinten/Kyuten to Shoha 1/2 when you have enough sword meditation stacks (with the kenki price of Shinten/Kyuten for better potency). This would turn some our most boring abilities (Shinten/Kyuten/Shoha) into an interesting mechanic where we attempt to convert as many Shintens into Shohas and justifies Shoha 2's existence (Kyuten is a circle AOE like Shoha 2, turning Kyuten into Gurren which is a line AOE just seems off). I'm okay with consolidating Senei and Gurren by just having Gurrens initial potency buffed to Senei levels.

Making shinten/kyuten connected to shoha might be a neat idea. I was recently thinking there could be a revision to meditation stacks as a whole with how many jobs are trying to emulate FF6 characters now.

Monk got blitz like Sabin. Machinist has the tools Edgar uses. I think there might have been a few more things, but I can't recall at the moment.

But with that in mind, I thought maybe Meditation could stack up to a total of 8. In a similar manner to how Sen alters the Iaijutsu button and it casts in a manner reminiscent of Cyan's sword tech from FF6, what if it had a more overt reference in the kit through Meditation stacks building to 8, changing the ability used like the iai button. 3 minimum gets a single target, 5 makes it an aoe with a large falloff and then 8 would make it a super aoe with a small falloff.
(Not a balanced thought, it came to me an hour ago)

But I definitely think SAM should get the WAR treatment on ability procs like Infuriate making Inner Chaos and such. SAM should do something with Ikishoten/Ogi Namikiri and Senei/Guren

Third Eye - Open Eyes would be nice to have back, too. It doesn't need to take up extra buttons either. Open Eyes can turn Third Eye into Merciful Eyes and change Shinten into Seigan. Doesn't sound like a hard thing to do

Ya know this might come of toxic, then again Square and Community help me become that...

When someone gives an opinion of Kaiten and its approval to it's removal... (that rhymed hehe) and sometimes claiming to Main SAM perhaps even for years... does anyone ever go to their " Oaks", to their " Mahogany " if you will to check if they done recent content as SAM at all?

Often times I find out they have not and actualy cleared content with another class. Heck through Lodestone sometimes I see them never having leveled Samurai. Is that just me or am taking this far? am I threading a thin line of something? idk forum rules honestly I even been cursing in some of my posts cause of utter frustrations from SAM changes coupled with my housing lottery being lost to Nr... 0

Glad I'm safe from that kind of scrutiny, lol.

But I think it's pretty obvious when someone doesn't play a job based on their understanding of how it plays. I'm also relatively new to the forums since I've never had a reason to make an account until now.

Sad for your house though. A lot of my friends had the dreaded 0 pop up for them too and they happened to be the only bidder, too.

Honestly even with the so called "balancing" they did with the removal of Kaiten SAM is doing less damage than before! be it only a 3% difference its still a nerf no matter how they look at it. I would have honestly been ok with the 3% dps loss if they allowed us to keep Kaiten. SAM was in a good spot before the changes even took place and NO ONE was bitching about "botton bloat" and not to beat a dead horse but people have already offered better alternate solutions if that really is the reasoning behind the changes. I share the sentiment everyone is voicing in that the class just feels hollow now.

I've said something similar for DRK, and I'll say it for SAM because I've seen people downplay this aspect which I believe is very important.

Why in the twelve's seven hells do people discount animation flavor as a valid factor for how they derive enjoyment from a class in a /video game/?
I'd argue that's just as much, if not more important than the sheer numbers and mechanics. Taken to a logical extreme, you get pokemon sword and shield where attacks are indicated with a simple hop of a stationary model, and that's NO fun.

Even aside from the mechanical benefit of Kaiten, it just felt REALLY good to use visually. I still advocate for Kaiten to be reverted entirely-- animation, mechanics, and all.

Create acc to talk about kaiten removal. Yoshi P want feed back, here i am. Revert the changed back to what it were before. Some may be ok with goken become circular, im not. To be blunt, the changes are there for anyone who play melee but refuse to move for positional. To those, please play range or caster. You dont need to move at all. If you play melee, get off your ass and move

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Originally Posted by Runeslayer

I've said something similar for DRK, and I'll say it for SAM because I've seen people downplay this aspect which I believe is very important.

Why in the twelve's seven hells do people discount animation flavor as a valid factor for how they derive enjoyment from a class in a /video game/?
I'd argue that's just as much, if not more important than the sheer numbers and mechanics. Taken to a logical extreme, you get pokemon sword and shield where attacks are indicated with a simple hop of a stationary model, and that's NO fun.

Even aside from the mechanical benefit of Kaiten, it just felt REALLY good to use visually. I still advocate for Kaiten to be reverted entirely-- animation, mechanics, and all.

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Animation flavour is a subjective but still very valid reason for enjoyment. But since it's subjective, someone like lets say a job designer, can disregard subjective ideas like that.
Mechanical interactions are strictly objective, as people can outline specific reasons for why x is good or bad, making it harder for a job designer to disregard it.
When I try to get a point across I want to scrub out the subjective points to focus on the objective for a strategic purpose in service of the argument.

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Originally Posted by Runeslayer

I've said something similar for DRK, and I'll say it for SAM because I've seen people downplay this aspect which I believe is very important.

Why in the twelve's seven hells do people discount animation flavor as a valid factor for how they derive enjoyment from a class in a /video game/?
I'd argue that's just as much, if not more important than the sheer numbers and mechanics. Taken to a logical extreme, you get pokemon sword and shield where attacks are indicated with a simple hop of a stationary model, and that's NO fun.

Even aside from the mechanical benefit of Kaiten, it just felt REALLY good to use visually. I still advocate for Kaiten to be reverted entirely-- animation, mechanics, and all.

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Thank you. Rather people are into parsing/big numbers feels/rotation execution/aesthetics, 6.1 SAM changes did little to improve anything, broke waht didn't need be fixed, and robbed plenty from SAM for solving nothing. PS: I haven't played long, idk what DRK missed, I would like to know what that is actually if you don't mind me asking.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Thank you. Rather people are into parsing/big numbers feels/rotation execution/aesthetics, 6.1 SAM changes did little to improve anything, broke waht didn't need be fixed, and robbed plenty from SAM for solving nothing. PS: I haven't played long, idk what DRK missed, I would like to know what that is actually if you don't mind me asking.

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Dark Knight in Stormblood had an ability called Dark Arts. The way it worked is for a portion of MP, it would alter your next weaponskill or ability or spell. From giving a line aoe the added status of Blind to making most of your combos hit much harder. Enough so that it became a meme.

1 - Dark arts - 2 - Dark arts - ogcd - Dark arts - 3 - repeat

That's a simple way to look at it. And before that, Dark Knight actually had to manage their mp pool in a meaningful way. That's not even getting into the fact that DRK used to be best at self-sustain in dungeons thanks to one ability. Abyssal Drain. It wasn't always a 60 second cooldown. It used to be something spammable with enough MP. God, I miss old Abyssal Drain

oh yeah, the castbars struck a chord... not that i play SAM any more, but pretty unfair to have a castbar for such lacklusters skills lmao

For me what would help save samurai, is change the dumb animation on Hissatsu: Shinten, if that ability was more fun to use it would help fill the hole left from removing Kaiten, but it is an awful ability, the stab is not satisfying to use at all. The other is a potency increase holy crap i pull about 1000 less dps. And lastly please revert Tenka Goten, im not an NPC i can move a few feet to use an ability and it was way more fun to use, now its just stand still and spin.

Hello folks. The hot topic has been critical as a stat, synergies, and the purpose of a pure dps.

Personally I feel the critical stat in this game is one of the worst I've seen. At least for their reasoning as to why they push flawed concepts to balance it. Most MMOs will allow you to reach a middling amount and fill the rest with skills or traits. But here it is constantly kept at a somewhat low enough value to be extremely valuable. You can argue that it makes it mandatory if they give us more to reduce variance, but I don't think that makes it any different than it is now. I've only touched on critical, but the rest of the stats need an overhaul too.

On a smaller note, talks of development costs used as an excuse for not reverting the changes have been shot down by many. Don't get me started on how people assume the developers would misinterpret the feedback as rolling back to 6.08 in its entirety (Stuff not related to Samurai). It is not our responsibility to worry about such things. It is our responsibility to give feedback. Be clear, don't throw insults at the developers, and give feedback on what you exactly want. Thanks.

Went from Midare to MIDare

Please don't let your incompetence over the housing lottery system overshadow your incompetent and ill-thought out changes to Samurai.

I'm about to go into Ultimate on a job that isn't what I geared up to do it on and at this point I don't even have a choice regarding BIS.

Revert the changes immediately.

I wonder how many pages these go up to before they cap out?

Right so, I was thinking, if we ever get major changes/overhauls to classes, we should be offered the ability to turn in the specific pieces of gear related to that classes for their respective items. Savage items for books, tome gear for tomes. I've said that in most of my past posts but failed to explain it well.

Anyway, revert sam to 6.08, have meaningful discussion with your players by approaching them with your problems, yadda yadda. Many of us offered reasonable solutions alongside less reasonable ones. That's what your devs and playtesters are for. You already know what the true problem is with damage profiles, so stop putting bandaids over one part of a huge gushing wound.

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Originally Posted by Ruminous

Right so, I was thinking, if we ever get major changes/overhauls to classes, we should be offered the ability to turn in the specific pieces of gear related to that classes for their respective items. Savage items for books, tome gear for tomes. I've said that in most of my past posts but failed to explain it well.

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Great idea!

Was redoing Samurai class quest on an Alt randomly, cause I can't be bothered to do much on my main at the moment... too depressing to be on my main... And I remember a part where we face another Samurai (Spoilers, not really)... immediately I tried remembering what this Samurai was going to cast at me...

https://i.postimg.cc/vZSkHb98/Tenka-Goken.png

This Tenka Goken actually looks like it's aiming a wide slash towards something...
Not 360 slashes even farting slashes behind me when I am clearly slashing forward...
This still exists!!!

GIVE THIS BACK!! GIVE THIS VERSION BACK DX< !!!

Yeah the new Tenka fart is very bland and uninteresting, not to mention it now hits like a wet noodle.

Doing a bit of math on this, our current aoe GCD combo at 90 has a ppGCD (potency per GCD) of 144 per target. So a full combo of Fuko > Oka > Fuko > Mangetsu > Tenka hits for 144 potency for every target hit. It also builds a total of 40 Kenki to be used on Kyuten at 110 potency per target. Kyuten currently has a ppK (potency per Kenki) of 4.4. Spread out over the course of the GCD combo that builds it, this 40 Kenki brings the total ppGCD up from 144 per target to 179.2.

If we remove Tenka from the equation (via using Hagakure to generate 20 Kenki from the 2 Sen we have) we now have 70 Kenki to work with because our 5-GCD aoe combo now looks like Fuko > Oka > Fuko > Mangetsu > Fuko. The base ppGCD of this combo is 108 across 5 GCD's. Clearly Tenka at 280 potency has a marked effect, raising the total ppGCD of the combo across 5 GCD's by almost 40%. But with an additional 70 Kenki to work with due to Hagakure and not using Tenka, the additional oGCD from the Kenki translates into 308 extra potency on top of the standard GCD potency. Divided across those 5 GCD's we get a ppGCD of 169.6 per target, up from 104. Which is 9.6 potency less than we get from the Tenka combo. This means on five targets you're getting 48 less potency per 5 GCD sequence by using Hagakure instead of Tenka. This doubles to 96 less potency per 5 GCD sequence at 10 targets. Since aoe packs rarely go past ten mobs (most stop at around 7-8) the best case scenario for using Tenka over Kyuten is for an additional 96 potency, and only assuming all ten targets are hit by all your aoe.

So let's look at current Tenka with the theoretical addition of Kaiten. At a 50% boost to potency, Kaiten is worth 140 potency in damage when used on Tenka. This, when added to our other 5 GCD's, gives a total potency of 840 across the combo sequence, or 172 ppGCD. Just using 20 out of the 40 Kenki we get on Kaiten already puts the basic aoe combo ahead of the Hagakure/Kyuten version (172 vs. 165.6). Adding in the ppK from the last 20 Kenki generated by our aoe combo the total potency over 5 GCD's comes to 928 for a ppGCD of 185.6.

Given that Tenka has a cast time and Kyuten does not there's also the negligible matter of potential lost auto attacks. I won't calculate this because it's, well, negligible, but it's still worth mentioning in the context of how Tenka - as a circular aoe - now forces the SAM to sit in the middle of a pack of mobs for maximum effect. Kyuten is also circular but it is instant and easy to seamlessly weave while dodging enemy attacks. Tenka has no such benefit, and if you're forced to cancel the cast due to an aoe for some reason then this very-narrow 8.6 potency gap between Tenka and Hagakure/Kyuten start to close very quickly.

So what are the take-aways from this:

1 - Tenka as a circular aoe puts the SAM right in the middle of danger, locking us down while we cast it. We either move if an aoe is coming or risk eating avoidable damage, something that no one wants to eat when running a 4-man.

2 - the damage difference between current non-Kaiten Tenka and Hagakure/Kyuten spam is very low. So low that if you *are* forced to move to dodge something then you're almost certainly better off just eating your Sen with Hagakure and spamming Kyuten to maintain mobility.

3 - the damage difference between Kaiten+Tenka and Tenka+Kyuten spam is about 3.4% before considering crits. This is a direct nerf for no good reason.

4 - the damage difference between Tenka+Kyuten and Kyuten/Hagakure spam is about 5.5% before considering crits. Given that new Tenka can much more easily be interrupted by forced movement to avoid aoes, this is more of a wash than it would appear from the numbers. Even one delayed/cancelled Tenka cast is enough for the Kyuten/Hagakure spam option to catch up in ppGCD.

5 - if lots of movement is necessary to avoid spammed enemy aoe (common in a big pull) then using Tenka+Kyuten over pure Kyuten spam is the way to go as the damage is almost identical and the freedom of movement means you don't get tagged unnecessarily.

The one seemingly-big disadvantage of Kyuten spam over Tenka+Kyuten is the lack of access to Kaeshi. The total potency of this combo across 6 GCD's is 1000 even, for a ppGCD of 166.6. Adding the additional 40 Kenki on top of it we get a total ppGCD of 196 across 6 GCD's and a total potency for the cmobo of 1176.

Using the Kyuten/Hagakure spam version across those same 6 GCD's gives a total ppGCD of 660 with 90 additional Kenki (60 from GCD's, 30 from Sen) for Kyuten. This gives us a total potency across the combo of 1056 for a ppGCD of 176. Compared to one another this is about a 10% damage difference (10.2% or so) in favor of Tenka+Kaeshi over Kyuten/Hagakure. But again, if you're forced to move and delay your Tenka cast due to incoming aoe the difference starts to narrow. Optimal play would seem to be trying to keep Kaeshi cooldown rolling while in aoe situations but not to stress about it otherwise. If you can't safely get Tenka off then it's better to eat the Sen instead and just spam Kyuten. If you can't guarantee you'll hit every target with Tenka but are confident you can maneuver to hit everything with Kyuten then you're better off eating the Sen and using Kyuten, as even missing one target with Tenka puts it below hitting all the targets with the Kyuten-focused combo.

Which is to say that all of this is a very long-winded means of advocating for bringing back Tenka as a conal attack. The entire consideration presented here could be removed from the equation if Tenka was still a cone, allowing SAM's to safely cast Iaijutsu without worrying about dodging enemy aoe's.

Oh and bring back Kaiten.

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Originally Posted by Ruminous

I wonder how many pages these go up to before they cap out?

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Around 175 and approx. 2 years like last time, perhaps.

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Originally Posted by DreadfullyAwful

With these changes, the devs are confirming they think the majority of us are incapable of learning complex rotations and can only follow the shiny buttons

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That's what they believed when they changed DRK into a brainless 1-2-3 OGC's infested spamfest. You guys are getting a decent taste of what we had to go through.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

That's what they believed when they changed DRK into a brainless 1-2-3 OGC's infested spamfest. You guys are getting a decent taste of what we had to go through.

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I already got a taste when I stopped playing DRK beyond looking fly in cutscenes thanks to the diet-WAR treatment. I don't want to taste it again. SAM was in a pretty decent spot before this patch.

I want to know what the dev's intentions are supposed to be before I press further judgment, but so long as things remain as they are I stand with the majority on wanting SAM reverted. But I really really hope they eventually consider all the suggestions we've been making.

It has now been a full week since the changes. The short of it is, I still feel 6.1 SAM is a watered down version of 6.08 SAM.

Guaranteed crits on Midare and Ogi make both of these far less exciting. Instead of being blown away from Direct hit Crits, now its a small hype because really, its just a Direct Hit. That feeling of try-harding on a pull because I got an amazing opener is so much more tame than before and that's kind of depressing.

The Tenka Goken change is so bland. I've started watching Youtube while doing dungeons because why do I really need to pay attention? Its not like I need to focus on which target will allow me to hit the most enemies. QoL can and has been pushed too far. Even the slightest inconvenience must be improved.

The Kaiten change is still terrible. Now I'm spamming Shintens like there's no tomorrow. How is that better? How is any of this better?

All this patch did was flatten the high points of SAM with nothing given in return.

Indeed it has been a week, am i used to the new rotato? Yes. Do i like it? Hell no. And now that the housing drama is pretty much done i would really like a response from the devs addressing the 6.1 job changes. Not only for SAM but for all the others that feel their jobs changed for the worse.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

I already got a taste when I stopped playing DRK beyond looking fly in cutscenes thanks to the diet-WAR treatment. I don't want to taste it again. SAM was in a pretty decent spot before this patch.

I want to know what the dev's intentions are supposed to be before I press further judgment, but so long as things remain as they are I stand with the majority on wanting SAM reverted. But I really really hope they eventually consider all the suggestions we've been making.

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I agree with you man. It's beyond my comprehension why they would even do this. You guys need to continue to speak up because there was literally nothing wrong with Kaiten. It was iconic and should have never been removed.

Hello all. A talking point that has picked up has been the Yukikaze/Hagakure rotation vs the normal rotation. Strictly speaking from the opener to 2 minutes, a normal rotation is about 541/GCD and the Yukikaze/Hagakure rotation is around 537/GCD~. Gap closes when you miss positionals approx 4 times to a .5 difference. If you miss a Midare or Kaeshi, the normal rotation becomes automatically worse at around 533.5/GCD~.

The other talking point is the increased hesitation to post due to uncertainty. As always, don't give up.