Keep overpower cone shaped!

Indeed, I have to wonder if limiting all dungeon mechanics to what basic NPC AI can do is a good idea for a game that, I had thought, was supposed to be about a (human) multiplayer experience.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

You're confusing the Aery with Sohr Khai, but anyway.

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Indeed I was. One of these I'll be able to keep the names straight, but today was not that day ;)

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The change was made at the same time they introduced duty support NPCs for 2.0 duties, so it's assumed that they're changing it in preparation to add support for those duties as well. The NPCs might not be able to handle the variable path as the number of platforms changes, or maybe teaching them to do it would be more time than they want to spend on a single fight.

It's not like you could fall off the old platforms anyway, when the wind jumps just took you to the next safe platform, and the boss dies too fast to worry about positioning anyway.

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To be fair, I've had runs where DPS was low enough that it got close. I doubt it'd ever actually happen, but it at least added some sense of urgency.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

What I'm asking myself is, is that actually a good thing? Because if they do not want to invest the time to make the NPCs work with certain mechanics then all this does is limit their design options and stifle creativity.

Sure it allows some players to entirely solo the content where they are implemented but it also potentially makes the experience worse for everyone.


Right now nobody is really bothered by it because it only affects dungeons and those are a joke anyway, but what happens when the Duty Support system bleeds into other content as well in SE's perpetual attempt to make the game appeal to solo players?

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See, FFXIV dungeons aren't/weren't as much of a joke as those in many other MMOs. There's quite a few dungeons that have mechanics that require some thought, experience, or at least a brief explanation of tactics. While certainly the trend seems to been downward when it comes to dungeon complexity there's still the likes of Pharos Sirius out there.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

What happens when every mechanic, and even environment design, needs to be so limited that the NPCs can deal with it? Their current dungeon design is so incredibly stale that I can't be bothered doing them more than once or twice already.

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The ability to have mechanics of a type that can't easily be handled with AI is one of the things that makes MMOs stand out from single player games. When one cuts that out the only thing left is arguably the social aspect.

Question then is whether the social aspect is enough. Guess SE thinks it is. Given how barren the MMO landscape is when it comes to quality games, it might well be, at least untill some game comes around that combines both of these aspects again, and players start migrating. Should it ever come to that then the ship will have sailed, as dumbing down "normal" content is borderline irreversible (see Blizzard's "let's make heroics hard again" disaster in early Cataclysm)

I can't believe people are actually upset by this change. No matter how you look at it, a circle AoE covers more area than a cone does. Especially when you consider that enemies can not 'stack' on top of each other in this game. This means no matter what, when you get a lot of enemies together, they are going to naturally pile up around you in a CIRCLE. By making this change, this means you have to MOVE LESS to continue your AoE combo. Meaning that the DPS on your team is not getting screwed over by you backing up constantly to hit enemies with your cone.

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Originally Posted by XRuecian

I can't believe people are actually upset by this change. No matter how you look at it, a circle AoE covers more area than a cone does. Especially when you consider that enemies can not 'stack' on top of each other in this game. This means no matter what, when you get a lot of enemies together, they are going to naturally pile up around you in a CIRCLE. By making this change, this means you have to MOVE LESS to continue your AoE combo. Meaning that the DPS on your team is not getting screwed over by you backing up constantly to hit enemies with your cone.

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They do not naturally pile up around you, they easily stay infront, and you do not have to keep backing up just to keep them infront. This is something that has been said many many times in this thread.

Also, as a DRK player, you want the mobs to be infront of you, easier to hit them all with Flood/Shadowbringer.

Your right, i do want them in front of me. And its an annoyance and a half because of it. I cant count how many times i have to reposition so that my "Line AOE" will hit all the enemies i want it to. Which is not a big deal if we are only talking about 3-4 enemies. But once you get to like 5-6+ enemies, once i reposition, some of those enemies are going to reposition as well. Which means ill have to reposition again, and so on. Enemies "Push" each other. So if you have a big enough group, its literally impossible for them all to stay "in front of you" because some of them will be pushed away, and then they will push into the group, which will FORCE the group to begin encircling you.

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Originally Posted by XRuecian

I can't believe people are actually upset by this change. No matter how you look at it, a circle AoE covers more area than a cone does. Especially when you consider that enemies can not 'stack' on top of each other in this game. This means no matter what, when you get a lot of enemies together, they are going to naturally pile up around you in a CIRCLE. By making this change, this means you have to MOVE LESS to continue your AoE combo. Meaning that the DPS on your team is not getting screwed over by you backing up constantly to hit enemies with your cone.

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The cone was roughly 150 degrees. It had an 8-yalm radius. (150/360)8²π = 83.8 sq yalms.
The circle has a radius of only 5 yalms, costing you 60% of your range. (360/360)5²π = 78.5 sq yalms, only 39.25 of which face forward.

Even if you were to stand perfectly in the middle of the enemies as to get value out of the otherwise wasted 39 sq yalms behind you, purposely not doing your job in gathering them as tightly as you could, the circle is still a smaller area.

In short, the cone has a 7% greater area, and 213% greater forward-facing area. Your statement is patently untrue.

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Originally Posted by XRuecian

Your right, i do want them in front of me. And its an annoyance and a half because of it. I cant count how many times i have to reposition so that my "Line AOE" will hit all the enemies i want it to. Which is not a big deal if we are only talking about 3-4 enemies. But once you get to like 5-6+ enemies, once i reposition, some of those enemies are going to reposition as well. Which means ill have to reposition again, and so on. Enemies "Push" each other. So if you have a big enough group, its literally impossible for them all to stay "in front of you" because some of them will be pushed away, and then they will push into the group, which will FORCE the group to begin encircling you.

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I really suggest you practice more tanking then, because what you're describing makes it sound like youhave no idea what you're doing. Which is totally fine we all have to start somewhere. But seriously, ask your casters how they feel about you pulling multiple packs and just sitting there inthe middle , with them all surrounding you, like an absolute dope

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Originally Posted by XRuecian

I can't believe people are actually upset by this change. No matter how you look at it, a circle AoE covers more area than a cone does. Especially when you consider that enemies can not 'stack' on top of each other in this game. This means no matter what, when you get a lot of enemies together, they are going to naturally pile up around you in a CIRCLE. By making this change, this means you have to MOVE LESS to continue your AoE combo. Meaning that the DPS on your team is not getting screwed over by you backing up constantly to hit enemies with your cone.

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I thought the same at first but no, the cone had way more range and it was far more useful and pulling mobs that were further away. I thought I hated the cone, but my god I absolutely hate how tiny the range on the circle is. I would do anything to get the cone back x.x

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Originally Posted by XRuecian

Your right, i do want them in front of me. And its an annoyance and a half because of it. I cant count how many times i have to reposition so that my "Line AOE" will hit all the enemies i want it to. Which is not a big deal if we are only talking about 3-4 enemies. But once you get to like 5-6+ enemies, once i reposition, some of those enemies are going to reposition as well. Which means ill have to reposition again, and so on. Enemies "Push" each other. So if you have a big enough group, its literally impossible for them all to stay "in front of you" because some of them will be pushed away, and then they will push into the group, which will FORCE the group to begin encircling you.

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Hear hear. Look at this guy having the right of it and getting lambasted by all these ppl who "know how to tank."

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The cone was roughly 150 degrees. It had an 8-yalm radius. (150/360)8²π = 83.8 sq yalms.
The circle has a radius of only 5 yalms, costing you 60% of your range. (360/360)5²π = 78.5 sq yalms, only 39.25 of which face forward.

Even if you were to stand perfectly in the middle of the enemies as to get value out of the otherwise wasted 39 sq yalms behind you, purposely not doing your job in gathering them as tightly as you could, the circle is still a smaller area.

In short, the cone has a 7% greater area, and 213% greater forward-facing area. Your statement is patently untrue.

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No, u r woefully incorrect in practice. Good bit of the cone goes to waste, particularly the edges at the back, BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING THERE (there goes ur 7% totally wasted, omegalul). Also the cone was rather narrow and there is a good chance of u missing stuff that is directly to ur side (which is going to happen). If u stand in the middle u have a reach of 5 yalms in EVERY direction (that is 10 yalms across). With a cone u only have a reach of 8 in the general forward direction.

FURTHERMORE u r being completely ignorant about the efficiency of the circle. The area to circumference ratio is much better, meaning a smaller telegraph is going to be more efficient with a circle shape, than a larger with a different kind of shape.

I still cant believe this nonsense thread is going on. I guess ppl need some form of entertainment because dungeons r boring?

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

No, u r woefully incorrect in practice. Good bit of the cone goes to waste, particularly the edges at the back, BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING THERE (there goes ur 7% totally wasted, omegalul). Also the cone was rather narrow and there is a good chance of u missing stuff that is directly to ur side (which is going to happen). If u stand in the middle u have a reach of 5 yalms in EVERY direction (that is 10 yalms across). With a cone u only have a reach of 8 in the general forward direction.

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I hear this alot and I am sure so many people underestimate the size of the cone, so, I done some testing.

https://imgur.com/oGo41b2
This shows the size of the cone using striking dummies. I was in the corner of the wall in the bottom right, I was aiming at the dummy at the top, which is at max range fyi. The left most dummy shows max range in that direction, the one slight in is just there for something to hit (like line AoEs, cones suffer from the fact that, if you hit at max range on a dummy, it will not register, this is an issue only on dummies though).

So, attacking the top dummy, do you expect the dummy in the gateway to get hit? Of course you don't, however, it does. Pretty sure that is alot wider than you thought right?

Going onto the next image:
https://imgur.com/p4v6eoQ
The top and left most dummies are in the same spot as the top and leftmost ones in the cone picture, that third dummy however shows you the range on a player centric AoE of 5y. Quite a big difference.

This last picture is just a reference, and shows how much of a difference the discrepancy is between the max range cone and the max range it registers a hit.
https://imgur.com/iXB6qr0

All the pics were taken from top down at max zoom, so in theory they are all the same scale, I would add an AoE to better indicate the range, however, I'm not that good at image manipulation, even if it is just slapping a shape onto it.

(For some reason it didn't imbed the images, so, unfortunately, you are going to have to click the links).

Bonus:
Because I'm pretty sure people will say the first image is fake, I pulled out my super secret video skills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdI30BcrSo

As always the dummies furthest away show the max cone range, there is a dummy in the gateway (probably not in the same place as the pic) to show that that is indeed in the path. Video starts with me tucking myself away in the corner, which I how I made sure I was always in the same spot. I showed the far dummies are in range of Grim Swathe (the soul cost is white, not red), I Harpe so that I know I am facing the dummy at the back dead on and, without moving, use Grim Swathe, which yes, does have the same range as old Overpower. The dummy in the gateway gets hit, clear as day. That cone is definitely bigger than you thought it was going to be.

I do miss the old overpower a lot.
The coverage was a lot more fun, and it was one of the things I enjoyed bout Warrior.
I would have preferred mythril tempest being the reworked animation/coverage instead.

Gameplay aside, this new animation is really really bad.

Screen grab from the current overpower.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...571af4_c_d.jpg

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

snip

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unfortunately u r on a reaper

the reaper cone is by no means the same as what overpower was b4

the visuals indicate that the reaper cone is a half circle aoe (or a 180 degree cone for better comparison)

the warrior cone was (educated guess here) 90 depgrees or so? i know it would not be hitting that dummy on the side

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

unfortunately u r on a reaper

the reaper cone is by no means the same as what overpower was b4

the visuals indicate that the reaper cone is a half circle aoe (or a 180 degree cone for better comparison)

the warrior cone was (educated guess here) 90 depgrees or so? i know it would not be hitting that dummy on the side

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How did I know this was going to come up, unfortunately for you however, I'm not that ignorant, I checked the area of both attacks before I started. Courtesy of the magic of the Wayback Machine, I can screenshot the old Overpower and the area it used to have:

https://imgur.com/C5bvyUB

Which is exactly the same as Grim Swathe, and all other Reaper cones, which also all hit.

Even if Overpower didn't hit that far around, it was not that far off, still encompassing most of the area I showed.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

the warrior cone was (educated guess here) 90 depgrees or so? i know it would not be hitting that dummy on the side

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afaik it was identical to bad breath, so in the region of 120 degrees

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

Hear hear. Look at this guy having the right of it and getting lambasted by all these ppl who "know how to tank."

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If you're wondering WHY you're wrong, it's because what you're describing isn't tanking, but DPSing. This is the mindset of a DPS who picked up a tank job and didn't understand their role is now slightly more complicated than "do max damage with biggest attack all the time." So, I suggest you please read thru this forums and catch yourself up on the discussion so far, you will see the explanations for how the cone was good for TANKING , not for DPS.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

How did I know this was going to come up, unfortunately for you however, I'm not that ignorant, I checked the area of both attacks before I started. Courtesy of the magic of the Wayback Machine, I can screenshot the old Overpower and the area it used to have:

https://imgur.com/C5bvyUB

Which is exactly the same as Grim Swathe, and all other Reaper cones, which also all hit.

Even if Overpower didn't hit that far around, it was not that far off, still encompassing most of the area I showed.

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absolutely not, i remember having to be fairly far out in UWU ifrit to be able to hit both close nails as well while targeting the boss, im sure xeno has some footage of doing it himself somewhere

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Originally Posted by Kallis

If you're wondering WHY you're wrong, it's because what you're describing isn't tanking, but DPSing. This is the mindset of a DPS who picked up a tank job and didn't understand their role is now slightly more complicated than "do max damage with biggest attack all the time." So, I suggest you please read thru this forums and catch yourself up on the discussion so far, you will see the explanations for how the cone was good for TANKING , not for DPS.

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every role is a DPS with a different shade of red, i dunno about u but i can tell the difference w/o act when the healer is contributing next to nothing, or when a DPS is not aoing at all (sometimes even neither of them!) and it is very annoying

stop glorifying urself that tanking is slightly more complicated, the only addition to ur responsibility is to stack everything up nicely (and mitigate) so that everyone (as well as u) can hit everything and do max dmg

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

absolutely not, i remember having to be fairly far out in UWU ifrit to be able to hit both close nails as well while targeting the boss, im sure xeno has some footage of doing it himself somewhere

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At this point, I'm going to hold my hands up and say, I goofed. I made the initial assumption that cone AoEs that showed the same radius would all be the same and my late night brain/early morning brain wasn't thinking straight (but that is just an excuse). You can easily tell something isn't right when look at, say Scattergun or Ladonsbite, both are range/radius 12y, but there is no way it is as wide as Reapers cone AoEs. Another thing that tipped me off was line AoEs, there is no way Flood of Shadow/Shadowbringers has a radius of 10y, at least, not in the way you would expect (in my head, it would imply width), let's not even mention Chain Saw/Resolution and their 25y.

However, I believe this does bring up a flaw in the tooltips, in that, it is not clear how big a cone or line AoE is.

Now, the system as it is works fine for circular AoEs, Range 0 Radius 5, you are the centre, radius 5 from the middle, Range 20 Radius 5, As long as your target is upto 20 away, you can use it, and it has a radius of 5 AoE from that target. Range 3 Radius 0, those are you single target actions. Easy.

Going onto cones, using MCH Scattergun, Range 12 Radius 12. That doesn't tell me anything. I know the enemy has to be within 12 to use it, but what of the size of the cone? If I can hit anything within 12y, I don't need to know that the radius is also 12y, it is telling you the same info. It should be changed, in my opinion, to show how wide the cone is, say 120 degrees, or, in the case of reaper, closer to 180. So it would look more like, Range 12 Width 120 (no idea if that is accurate for Scattergun btw). And it would be the same with line AoEs, they do the same thing as cones, but I don't need 2 things to tell me how far it can go, tell me the furthest distance I can use it and either the full width or half the width (personally I would say full width), so, rather than Radius, it said Width instead.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

absolutely not, i remember having to be fairly far out in UWU ifrit to be able to hit both close nails as well while targeting the boss, im sure xeno has some footage of doing it himself somewhere

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You're bringing in irrelevant content to the conversation, a specific part of uwu being something that is neither a dungeon nor anything other than niche. And since I'm curious, why not just play gunbreaker? It has aoes in shapes you like, more complexity and more damage.

To quote from earlier in the thread:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The cone was roughly 150 degrees. It had an 8-yalm radius. (150/360)8²π = 83.8 sq yalms.

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Overpower had the range where it mattered.

lose cone, keep flood of darkness line :(

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Originally Posted by AffGnome

lose cone, keep flood of darkness line :(

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You can have my Flood of Shadow and Shadowbringer line AOEs when you pried it from my cold dead hands.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

You can have my Flood of Shadow and Shadowbringer line AOEs when you pried it from my cold dead hands.

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Probably only a matter of time. It seems the devs realize these non-boring-circle AoEs are at least as effective, and far more engaging, than the circles. If they weren't Dragoon would have been changed.

But Dragoon is mained by a dev, while all the classes hit heavily with unpopular changes (to the people maining them, anyway) aren't mained by any devs. Correlation is not causation, maybe, but it does make one think...

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Originally Posted by marelooke

Probably only a matter of time. It seems the devs realize these non-boring-circle AoEs are at least as effective, and far more engaging, than the circles. If they weren't Dragoon would have been changed.

But Dragoon is mained by a dev, while all the classes hit heavily with unpopular changes (to the people maining them, anyway) aren't mained by any devs. Correlation is not causation, maybe, but it does make one think...

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Which of the... (three? four?) devs mains DRG? Hadn't heard that.

That said, though, good for them. Now, if only jobs could get some respect even when not mained personally by a dev...

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That said, though, good for them. Now, if only jobs could get some respect even when not mained personally by a dev...

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About as likely as us getting WoW's glamour system. Or them making a normal dungeon that isn't just 6 corridors stapled together.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

You can have my Flood of Shadow and Shadowbringer line AOEs when you pried it from my cold dead hands.

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Wow, you think you're allowed to have a line aoe? What if you miss some enemies? We cant have that! We'll just make it a large circle, with new Earthly Stars range.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Which of the... (three? four?) devs mains DRG? Hadn't heard that.

That said, though, good for them. Now, if only jobs could get some respect even when not mained personally by a dev...

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Afraid I don't remember, saw it brought up in, I think, one of the SAM threads.

Took WAR through some roulettes with friends and I kept fucking up my trash pulls because the devs keep doing worthless changes for the sake of change. Change Overpower back already.

Still hoping they change overpower back. It was never a problem to begin with unless it was causing issues for new players who were not used to it, but I don't really see any feedback against having overpower return to a cone.

This is a really perplexing change that just takes away from overall job variety options, plus it’s jarring to still see many enemies use an identically named action that does something that the player’s version no longer does.

i feel like they only changed to it match mythril tempest and orogeny, so maybe if the next expansion changes the mythril tempest animation to better suit a cone shape theyll change overpower back.

If Overpower didn't require a target like every other tank AOE, I would've been good keeping it cone-shaped.
Unfortunately, they insisted on making it jank.

It requiring a target meant you could make maximum use from the area. The circle doesn’t require a target and “misses” half the time even when mobs are standing clearly in the animation.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

It requiring a target meant you could make maximum use from the area. The circle doesn’t require a target and “misses” half the time even when mobs are standing clearly in the animation.

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For an AoE OPENER specifically, yikes this is just so bad. I feel for you PLD DRK, GNB mains, i really do. The way you all have been dealing with this that I now have to do, it just feels like such garbage and we all deserve better, not just WARs. A tank's AoE opener should be a targetted cone, of some kind in front. It should have just a bit more range than the radius of your point-blank AoE, which is still great to have as the general rotation skill. It should just go back to exactly what we had before.

I still stand by my suggestion of compromising by splitting it into 2 different weaponskills; they don't both need to be on the hotbar, just in your ability list. Let them use the circle opener instead, if they really insist, but please at the least give it back to those of us that were using it. Grace those with it who have been tanking all this time without. The only mistake with cone AoE that I can tell, was making it WAR-specific. It's a general-purpose tanking tool that should not have been tied to WAR identity, at least not after major homogenizing changes made to tanking in general. Basically as soon as WAR got access to provoke, I don't see why PLD didn't also get a cone AoE.

I’m likely going to try the criterion/variant dungeons on warrior, I really hope they revert this in time for their release. Particularly in the harder modes having an unresponsive unreliable aoe would be nothing more than a liability.

Wonder if they're going to turn DRG's AoE abilities into circles too with the rework...

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Originally Posted by Simple_Barghest

If Overpower didn't require a target like every other tank AOE, I would've been good keeping it cone-shaped.
Unfortunately, they insisted on making it jank.

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The fact that it needed a target was what made it so good.
You were guaranteed to hit.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

The fact that it needed a target was what made it so good.
You were guaranteed to hit.

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Best of both worlds: Allow for a separate autoface setting for cone/line AoEs, with the options <on>, <off>, and <off if camera is locked>. Voila. No target required, but can't miss for those who wish to use it as before. Can default to auto-face but be overridden, too, by manually aiming it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Best of both worlds: Allow for a separate autoface setting for cone/line AoEs, with the options <on>, <off>, and <off if camera is locked>. Voila. No target required, but can't miss for those who wish to use it as before. Can default to auto-face but be overridden, too, by manually aiming it.

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Well, they did add this new setting to auto target skills requiring a target in the same patch they murdered Overpower... ;) :(

If they change it back I'd have to adapt again.

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Originally Posted by marelooke

Well, they did add this new setting to auto target skills requiring a target in the same patch they murdered Overpower... ;) :(

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Yeah, but it tends to function in the same way as tab-target, starting to the left and panning across, instead of using a target scan (prioritizing character facing angle). Which means it's more than likely to miss a number of mobs if used for the likes of Overpower as it suddenly swings to the left.