Critique of Endwalker Characters

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

The Golden Girls. :P Interestingly, it's because they were all so different and played well off of each other, something the Scions don't have. They've always been friends, always get along, always agree with each other (what few differences they have don't amount to much). The fact that they're all Archons or from Sharlayan like the twins doesn't help either, aside from who they were before then there's not even much diversity in their backgrounds. The main cast needs some spice.

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I think if you looked in the right places, you'd find some people probably don't like the Golden Girls either. A lot of people don't even know that a lot of people dislike Endwalker that much until they visit these forums. I don't think there is anything anywhere that has a 100% approval rating because this assumes everyone will like it. Businesses will listen to the majority, not the loud unsatisfied minority regardless of their criticism. That's not to say that the criticism isn't validated. But money talks more. You need to speak with your wallet.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Ever since someone compared Zenos to Vegeta from DBZ I've been thinking, darn, he had possibilities! I would love a Vegeta type in game even if it's not him.

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I believe we sort of had that chance with Gaius but he was unfortunately wasted on an optional side quest and we never saw him again. Oh, well...
- one of our arch enemies since 1.0 and early ARR
- acknowledged and respected our strength and wanted to have us on his side but entirely willing to kill us if we refuse
- a damn good veteran fighter with a lot of precious inside knowledge about Garlemald
- forged his own path after his almost fatal failure and learning the truth about the Empire without doing a 180 and holding fast to some things ("I'm still a son of Garlemald")

The potential for interesting encounters with varios NPCs was immense. It was crystal clear that our path would lead us to Garlemald and he had the most inside knowedge, much more than Nero, Cid or Lucia and Maxima lacked the military background as he was more of a diplomat/ politician.
But since it was only an optional side quest they couldn't do too much with him, his screentime was limited and they had to "get over with it" so they couldn't really add a story that slowly went from open animosity between former enemies over grudging acceptance to have need of each other's skill and knowledge to something like a difficult but still working alliance or even a mutual understanding and respect. The whole "Alright, let's work together!" went over too fast when it could've been made into a story not unlike Estinien's albeit with a former enemy instead of a vengeful ally.
He was a conquerer, he waged wars, strongly believed might gave the right to rule and killed but he also gave a Roe a pretty high rank, was strongly aganist the abuse of non-Garleans, went against the Empire by helping to stop Meteor as well as other needlessly brutal or cowardly methods like Black Rose and took in orphans, ill-fated as their story turned out to be, tried to be a sort of father for Cid and wanted to do better after his failure in Prae.
He admitted to many mistakes and openly acknowledged them in front of others but he also never cowered or denied who and what he was and still is and that some part of him will always be loyal to the Emporer.

Edit: Oh, and while we're at it: Regula. That one would've also made for an interesting character of the same category if only they had allowed him to live.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

All the Emet-Selch merch that sold on Etsy after his seemingly permanent demise in Shadowbringers directly contradicts this. People straight up have paintings of the guy hanging in their houses. SE refusing to do any merch of him during last expansion was a hilariously bad decision as they could have easily made loads of money before and after his role in the events of Endwalker. As for all the Y'shtola merch the best way to solve that problem is to simply design a better postergirl.

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Etsy is a place for artists with freedom of creativity and not big industry merchandise. Which is usually cheaper than any official merchandise so the comparison is apples to oranges. They also said their lack of Emet merchandise was that they wanted to wait until his role in the story was over. Pretty sure they addressed that at some point and from their business pov, seemed to have been pretty okay with that decision and do not regret it.

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Originally Posted by Remish

Etsy is a place for artists with freedom of creativity and not big industry merchandise. Which is usually cheaper than any official merchandise so the comparison is apples to oranges. They also said their lack of Emet merchandise was that they wanted to wait until his role in the story was over. Pretty sure they addressed that at some point.

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Etsy still shows that there's significant demand for merchandise based on many characters that are largely absent on the Square Enix store for reasons that, honestly, don't really hold up. Why, exactly, does a character's role in the story need to be 'over' before merchandise is sold? That certainly isn't the case for Y'shtola or G'raha.

It can't be an aversion to selling merchandise based around antagonists, either, based on the presence of Sephiroth and Rufus Shinra figurines being sold.

I daresay some characters, particularly the Scions, are artificially pushed more heavily than their actual popularity would arguably justify.

There is valid criticism in here. Though most posters ruin it with consistently hinting that people need to die to be of any meaningful impact.

Instead of focusing on how current character personalities annoy you, provide feedback to the devs about how a new cast of characters can be more fleshed/spiced out. Cause if you don't like someone like Y'shtola now, you are never going to like her in the future even with a personality change. Her current history is apart of her now and will follow her forever forward. It's better to help the devs create a new character instead of trying to change what already exists.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Etsy still shows that there's significant demand for merchandise based on many characters that are largely absent on the Square Enix store for reasons that, honestly, don't really hold up. Why, exactly, does a character's role in the story need to be 'over' before merchandise is sold? That certainly isn't the case for Y'shtola or G'raha.

It can't be an aversion to selling merchandise based around antagonists, either, based on the presence of Sephiroth and Rufus Shinra figurines being sold.

I daresay some characters, particularly the Scions, are artificially pushed more heavily than their actual popularity would arguably justify.

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Because SE is a business and it's about money. Everything they do is about money. Let's not pretend it isn't. The story is an afterthought to sales. Always has been. Always will be. If those sales are achieved with the current personalities, then it isn't going to change. Their profits will speak wither or not they need to adjust character personalities. I'm pretty sure SE doesn't care what Etsy's demand for merchandise says. They have their own marketing formula and fan creations probably aren't factored into it. For the same reason Nintendo shuts down fan projects.

But we get it, people need to die to be good. That's all this thread has turned into and SE isn't ever going to listen to that feedback. That's all most of us are taking away from this discussion anymore.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

Because SE is business and it's about money. Everything they do is about money. Let's not pretend it isn't. The story is an afterthought to sales. Always has been. Always will be. If those sales are achieved with the current sales, it isn't going to change. Their profits will speak wither or not they need to adjust character personalities. I'm pretty sure SE doesn't care what Etsy's demand for merchandise says. They have their own marketing formula and fan creations probably aren't factored into it. For the same reason Nintendo shuts down fan projects.

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The present design of male viera was directly inspired from "fan creations" as they interpreted the artwork the OP had in the first post as what fans wanted. You ask, they give. Emet-selch etsy merch and fanart comissions were extremely prominent during the Shadowbringers era, in my circles far more prominent than pictures of the same generic catgirl at least.

In any case I agree that we'd be better off with new characters. Preferably ones with contrasting personalities (see the dynamics of the trio, the dynamics of many other rpg parties really) and with sufficiently varied backgrounds so as to not have them all with the same outlook on life and how the world should be. And for goodness sake give them a hair color other than white.

In terms of heroines and postergirls, some of my favorites include Garnet, Oerba dia Vanille, Leliana, Morrigan, and Yuna.

In terms of males: Kain Highwind, Zidane, Balthier, Alistair, Ignis, Gladiolus

and in terms of villains-because the absolute last thing we need is another Hermes: Thordan, Kuja, Kefka, Ardyn, Gabranth, Caius

Also important to note is that at least once Yoship managed to acknowledge the fact that Hermes was a divisive figure in an interview sometime in January, I think. It really does feel like he was thrown in there just for the sake of "subverting expectation!" which may have worked if they had sufficiently developed him, instead of randomly thrusting him onto us.

Sorry but Etsy is a bad comparison and is going to continue to be for reasons already mentioned but feel free to continue to use it if you think it justifies your hatred for things. It won't change anything in the end.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

Because SE is a business and it's about money. Everything they do is about money. Let's not pretend it isn't. The story is an afterthought to sales. Always has been. Always will be. If those sales are achieved with the current personalities, then it isn't going to change. Their profits will speak wither or not they need to adjust character personalities. I'm pretty sure SE doesn't care what Etsy's demand for merchandise says. They have their own marketing formula and fan creations probably aren't factored into it. For the same reason Nintendo shuts down fan projects.

But we get it, people need to die to be good. That's all this thread has turned into and SE isn't ever going to listen to that feedback. That's all most of us are taking away from this discussion anymore.

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No, it's more that EW would've been a good point to remove some characters whose stories have more or less peaked. And an apocalypse where the stakes are (or should be) high is as good a time as you will get to do that.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

Because SE is a business and it's about money. Everything they do is about money. Let's not pretend it isn't. The story is an afterthought to sales. Always has been. Always will be. If those sales are achieved with the current personalities, then it isn't going to change. Their profits will speak wither or not they need to adjust character personalities. I'm pretty sure SE doesn't care what Etsy's demand for merchandise says. They have their own marketing formula and fan creations probably aren't factored into it. For the same reason Nintendo shuts down fan projects.

But we get it, people need to die to be good. That's all this thread has turned into and SE isn't ever going to listen to that feedback. That's all most of us are taking away from this discussion anymore.

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Given that Square Enix recently reported a loss of $48 million due to the Avengers game which had some, uh, 'interesting' creative decisions that didn't go down well with those of us not submerged in the Twitter sphere, I daresay the company would do rather well to look at what fans are actually asking for and shake things up a bit more as a result.

Source: https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/square-en...0its%20release.

To say nothing of the company's recent announcement that they were deciding to flirt with NFT's, a concept that has proven to be exceedingly unpopular with many gamers across the board.

Source: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ared?p=5790881

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Originally Posted by Lauront

No, it's more that EW would've been a good point to remove some characters whose stories have more or less peaked. And an apocalypse where the stakes are (or should be) high is as good a time as you will get to do that.

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Your signature is legendary!

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I daresay the company would do rather well to look at what fans are actually asking for and shake things up a bit more as a result.

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Endwalker is my favorite expansion so this fan thinks they're doing fine and that is the opinion I will sail away with and I will die on that hill

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

and in terms of villains-because the absolute last thing we need is another Hermes: Thordan, Kuja, Kefka, Ardyn, Gabranth, Caius

Also important to note is that at least once Yoship managed to acknowledge the fact that Hermes was a divisive figure in an interview sometime in January, I think.

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Ardyn. <3 He and Emet are my two all time favorite antagonists. I can't handle another Emet or Elidibus though if they go the sympathetic antagonist route. My heart broke for them so I hated having to defeat them (worse when Alphinaud is basically like "ding dong the witch is dead" after Emet >_>) and that, by comparison, the Scions lost nothing while the Ascians/Ancients lost everything.

Hermes I didn't find sympathetic at all. Had the game not tried to gaslight me that he was he might've been a more enjoyable antagonist.

Honestly, I'd like another Yotsuyu. She was enjoyable as a villain, but I did not feel conflicted about defeating her.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

You do have me quite curious. At what point do you think would have been a good place for a main character death if an apocalypse that once decimated the entire planet isn’t one? And fights against the unsundered aren’t one as well.

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My point was that there are no events where as it played out you are left thinking "that character could/should have died in that situation and I would be narratively okay with that".

Thancred giving his all to distract Ran'jit was a point like that: an emotional high point and he achieved what he needed to do. It's quite possible he only survived because at that point we had no other trust tank available.

Y'shtola falling down the hole in the Qitana Ravel was not. Too sudden, no buildup, rather contrived as a plot point – in this case they writing-wise were basically looking for an excuse to force her to use Flow so Emet could pull her out again, but if they were hypothetically looking for a chance to kill her off permanently then as it stands it was a weak way to go.

And in Endwalker I don't think there were any clear "should have been" points for a character death. The general vibe of disaster calls for places where maybe someone along the way could have been written to die, but who and when? The closest thing is Zenos turning up at our camp, but that is still "someone could arbitrarily be picked to die" and not a particular moment that works for a specific character.

It is again quite possible that all of them "had" to survive for the practical gameplay purpose that they need seven allies available for the level 89 trial.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

My point was that there are no events where as it played out you are left thinking "that character could/should have died in that situation and I would be narratively okay with that".

Thancred giving his all to distract Ran'jit was a point like that: an emotional high point and he achieved what he needed to do. It's quite possible he only survived because at that point we had no other trust tank available.

Y'shtola falling down the hole in the Qitana Ravel was not. Too sudden, no buildup, rather contrived as a plot point – in this case they writing-wise were basically looking for an excuse to force her to use Flow so Emet could pull her out again, but if they were hypothetically looking for a chance to kill her off permanently then as it stands it was a weak way to go.

And in Endwalker I don't think there were any clear "should have been" points for a character death. The general vibe of disaster calls for places where maybe someone along the way could have been written to die, but who and when? The closest thing is Zenos turning up at our camp, but that is still "someone could arbitrarily be picked to die" and not a particular moment that works for a specific character.

It is again quite possible that all of them "had" to survive for the practical gameplay purpose that they need seven allies available for the level 89 trial.

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Ah i see what you mean. Yes it’s an incredible shame in the grand scheme of things, that none of them really faced individual peril until the final zone and even then it was all immediately averted. As far as the trial goes, they could have just not had the trial be a trust based one. While i do understand why they did it, i personally don’t think it should influence the story.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

I see Thancred leaving us at some point. If they found a way to travel to the first again safely. No question Thancred would likely jump on the chance. There are other characters who are good fighters and infiltrators that could take his place.

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I think so too

I wonder if the traversal to the first again will play a role in removing , but not killing some of the Scions . Perhaps they may plan a moment in a future MSQ quest chain that we may discover a way to send people across the traverse with their bodies like our WoL can do and that once the group learn this Thancred already yearning to be back on the first to raise and support his "daughter" because there isnt much for him on the source anymore volunteers to try it, or maybe even Shtola yearns to be back with her tribe she was with for "in her spiritual form", five years as she was mother bear there and she may actually love Runar.

Honestly i didnt care for much of the scions other then maybe alisaie and uri all the others were kinda meh or didnt stick out to me much with most of them feeling kinda bland or boring

You like Alisaie and Meteion, but dislike Urianger and G'raha. Come on! I agree with IttyBitty: sorry for your public admittance of your terrible opinions. ._ .

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person that likes Thancred. Granted, I started in Ul'dah, but still.

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Originally Posted by Berteaux_Braumegain

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person that likes Thancred. Granted, I started in Ul'dah, but still.

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With them mentioning he in particular is going to get a MSQ focus in 6.x, I am rather curious to see what they do with him.

His role in the Scions has probably been rendered the most obsolete for the time being as espionage and intel gathering aren't terribly helpful in a time of peace.

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Originally Posted by Berteaux_Braumegain

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person that likes Thancred. Granted, I started in Ul'dah, but still.

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He's my favourite character! You're not alone <3

FWIW, in most tier lists I have seen people usually rank him pretty high :) I think he's a generally well-liked character, just not many people's absolute fave.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

This may come across as shocking to some but compared to other rpgs like Dragon Age or even other mainline FF games, the present core cast of FFXIV is quite weak by comparison. The interesting characters have exited the plot and are unlikely to return, and I don't think that FFXIV players should be subjected to a further 10 years of characters who contribute nothing.

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Well, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, I honestly though don't see Dragon Age as a good example of "characters" these days.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

With them mentioning he in particular is going to get a MSQ focus in 6.x, I am rather curious to see what they do with him.

His role in the Scions has probably been rendered the most obsolete for the time being as espionage and intel gathering aren't terribly helpful in a time of peace.

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I don't think it's worth reading too much into the comments about Thancred being in 6.x.

His VA and Krile's VA were both on the podcast with Yoshi P where this was said, so the characters were probably only mentioned because they were present.

I suspect all of the Scions will get *some* focus in 6.x, but I don't think Thancred will necessarily get more than anyone else.

One of the most fun experiences I've had playing an RPG was going through Dragon Age Origins with the party of Alistair, Morrigan, and Leliana. Anyone else who has played with this party can attest to the fact that these characters both contrast and bounce off each other naturally in conversation, making them by far one of the most interesting ways to play through the game.

Dragon Age 2 is especially fun when you play a Hawke mage and keep Fenris and Anders in the same party. Dragon Age Inquisition likewise has characters that join you that will fundamentally disagree on various key plot elements with each other, and in all these games their backgrounds are diverse enough to give them personalities worth remembering.

The closest we've come to this level of party interaction was in Elpis. Most other times, it's just stoic nodding and agreeing with each other, with their personalities merging into a single amalgamation. I can hardly tell the difference between the personality of most Scions apart from Alisae and Estinien. They're all too "smart," including Thancred. I'm sick of diplomats and "scholars." Give us a Sera/Fenris/Morrigan to shake things up a little.

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Originally Posted by Garruss

Well, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, I honestly though don't see Dragon Age as a good example of "characters" these days.

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o ___ o
Surely you have misspelt Dragon's Dogma.

yes ...
that must be it

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Originally Posted by Berteaux_Braumegain

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person that likes Thancred. Granted, I started in Ul'dah, but still.

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I loved Thancred in ARR & HW, but after he discovered Minfilia was dead/gone he became a moping mess. I also didn't like his arc on the First. I liked Ryne, but Thancred's inability to move on from Minfilia (who they insist wasn't a romantic interest despite him consistently acting like it was an unrequited love) to the extent of not wanting Ryne to choose her own destiny so that he could keep a residual of Minfilia with him was just too much for me. As far as I'm concerned, her character and his relationship to her ruined his character. I would love to love Thancred again, but the writers are going to have to separate him from Minfilia someday for that to happen.

Currently on the post endwalker msq and am sick and tired of Y'shtola having such a prominent role. I never liked her, hate her attitude towards the WoL. Condesending little b**** and that pseudo iintelligence just makes my skin crawl.

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Originally Posted by Turethir

He's my favourite character! You're not alone <3

FWIW, in most tier lists I have seen people usually rank him pretty high :) I think he's a generally well-liked character, just not many people's absolute fave.

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Same, like him. He's the good bro, and actually one of the only Scion who acts like he is friend with you, not a fanatic groupie. I don't want him to go. I just wish they didn't put so much emphasis on Minfillia every time he makes an interesting contribution. I find their relationship rather badly handled, because even though in canon their love isn't romantic, the lines of dialogue seem to point in that direction every time. Which creates a kind of weird dynamic after Ryne. On the other hand, I really like the fact that he struggled to manage himself during Shb. It makes him a character with flaws, and I thought that was pretty coherent.

There are two characters who bore me a little:
-Alphinaud. I like him a lot, but a break would be welcome; he's been with us for a long time, his arc is getting stale and we'd have to start a new one. I'm also tired of seeing him in his teenage form: let him grow up, for God's sake! If he (and his sister, for that matter) could be somewhere else for an extension before coming back, I'd be delighted.
- Graha Tia. It's more visceral now, I can't stand him. I've had enough of his fan attitude, I've had enough of his childishness, and I don't understand how our character is supposed to like him. He's also redundant, in the sense that he's a 'second thinker' and, unlike a lot of people here, I adore Ysthola. And I'm afraid that eventually he'll be there to replace her.

Double post : I will forever regret the fact we didn't get Fordola. She would be such a nice addition. She is Different ideologically, physically and historically, as she has no ties to Sharlayan.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

o ___ o
Surely you have misspelt Dragon's Dogma.

yes ...
that must be it

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*throws pawn off the cliff*
Dragon's Dogma has the deepest characters.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

*throws pawn off the cliff*
Dragon's Dogma has the deepest characters.

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I would take my 1 dimensional 7-foot tall warrior pawn who's fixated on the slipstream horror of the Harpies being half bird half woman all tit over the entire cast of Dragon Age anyday. Personality of a rusk but I can't wait to remake him in DD2

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

Double post : I will forever regret the fact we didn't get Fordola. She would be such a nice addition. She is Different ideologically, physically and historically, as she has no ties to Sharlayan.

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Holy mother of Necro, Batman! Anyways, Fordola is an interesting character but she has no reason to journey with us. Her interests lie solely with Ala Mihgo. So unless we're doing more Ala Mhigan stuff, she's not going to be a companion.

Fordola's also only just reached the point of being allowed to travel around Ala Mhigo unsupervised, and she still has that magic collar that can kill her with a single command word. She's still technically a conscripted prisoner of war.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Fordola's also only just reached the point of being allowed to travel around Ala Mhigo unsupervised, and she still has that magic collar that can kill her with a single command word. She's still technically a conscripted prisoner of war.

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Yeah - so far as we know she still has it, but....

She probably won't have it for much longer, as per the level 90 Healer job-quest:
https://i.imgur.com/dt2bsUk.png