The Reasoning behind The Sundering? (*6.0 Endwalker Spoilers*)

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Hydaelyn/Minfilia says it during their stint as the Word of the Mother back in 3.1. The Watcher reiterates it, without the flowery language, when Thancred and Y'shtola arrive on the Moon.

https://i.imgur.com/L6U1KOl.png

EDIT: lol

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Interesting. Presuming its not a mistranslation or typo, I would think its something to do with what they represented as Primals? Zodiark being the will of the star, Hydaelyn being... the lifestream maybe? An abstract way of saying that the star, the laws of the star and the lifestream was all sundered? When we forked over Minfilia it was pretty clear it was to send her over to the First, as Hydaelyn couldn't go herself, and she otherwise had no control over the situation.

If I were to assume any reason as to why Hydaelyn would Sunder herself...it's because she needs to be present to keep the Lifestream under control and flowing properly on each Shard. Likewise, she needs to be present on that Shard to also keep an eye on Zodiark's prison. However, this brings forth something that may be the focus of the next major storyline...if both Zodiark and Hydaelyn were needed to keep the Aether of the Source and Shards under control, and both have been dissipated...what's going to happen to the Lifestreams of the Source and Shards now that there's nothing there to keep them flowing correctly?

I could see Venat not just doing that out of a greater tactical outlook, but because she didn't place herself above anybody else. If the Ancients had to be sundered because they're too powerful to know humility and hardship, and Zodiark had to be sundered because he is too powerful a tool to trust people with... well, all that logic also applies to Venat and Hydaelyn, so why would she not?

Despite what some people think, Venat doesn't really judge herself greater than everyone else so much as she understands the fact that she has to be the one to do something. Therefore, if she has to enact a global edict, she also counts as part of it.

This is the one part of the Sundering that doesn't really make any sense to me. If she Sundered herself, how did she keep her lifespan, power, and memories?

And then...

If there's a fragment of Venat in each Shard, then shouldn't the Rejoinings have bolstered her power as well, meaning no change in the power dynamic between her and Zodiark?

Further still, if there's a fragment of Venat in each Shard, shouldn't they be like mini-Hydaelyns looking out to for their respective shards?

And then even farther, because boy-oh this creates so many questions, would she even still really be sundered since she had her memories and powers and could traverse the Aetherial Sea links at will, such as when she took Minfilia's soul back to the Source after Minfilia gave up her powers to Ryne and died (cause apparently EW makes this no longer a soul fusion scene but a death)?

:THONK:

'There is a theory which holds that memories scoured by blasts of aether are restored when the soul is cleansed in the Underworld. If true, then perhaps when our time comes to return to the star, we shall remember these few days we have lost.'

I don't think that Venat kept her lifespan. Much like Elidibus, Venat the Amaurotian ceased to be when she became Hydaelyn's heart. Hydaelyn lives in the aetheric sea, so that likely explains why she still has her memories relatively intact while Elidibus does not. The question then remains of what happened to all the mini-Venats. One of them was likely destroyed along with the corresponding Zodiark fragment with the destruction of the 13th and the creation of the Void. So really that leaves one Source Venat, and then 12 mini-Venats who are still unaccounted for. It would be interesting to see if we get an explanation for this.

Venats generally like to travel, so I suspect that they would have wandered the lands helping people out and discussing philosophy with them. Maybe some of them went to Thavnair and imparted some words of wisdom there. Some of the mini-Venats may even have come to become revered through their heroic deeds as gods in themselves. Who knows what the twelve of them are out doing.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

'There is a theory which holds that memories scoured by blasts of aether are restored when the soul is cleansed in the Underworld. If true, then perhaps when our time comes to return to the star, we shall remember these few days we have lost.'

I don't think that Venat kept her lifespan. Much like Elidibus, Venat the Amaurotian ceased to be when she became Hydaelyn's heart. Hydaelyn lives in the aetheric sea, so that likely explains why she still has her memories relatively intact while Elidibus does not. The question then remains of what happened to all the mini-Venats. One of them was likely destroyed along with the corresponding Zodiark fragment with the destruction of the 13th and the creation of the Void. So really that leaves one Source Venat, and then 12 mini-Venats who are still unaccounted for. It would be interesting to see if we get an explanation for this.

Venats generally like to travel, so I suspect that they would have wandered the lands helping people out and discussing philosophy with them. Maybe some of them went to Thavnair and imparted some words of wisdom there. Some of the mini-Venats may even have come to become revered through their heroic deeds as gods in themselves. Who knows what the twelve of them are out doing.

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If there are mini-Hydaelyns, then they got Rejoined, and then killed. There should only be what, 4 or 5 left? As goes the Zodiark chunks still embedded in living Shards?

Hm, I wonder. If you destroy the source version of something, do you not destroy all its reflections?

Likewise, what happens if your reflection isn't on a Shard when it rejoins? What if your reflections travel to the Source? What if they manually rejoin you while the corresponding shard is still intact, much like Ardbert did? What happened to the reflections on the 13th - were they destroyed, or do they all have analogues in angry Voidsent (i.e. who does the Cloud of Darkness and Diabolos correspond to then?)

How Venat can be sundered? She's serving as Hydaelyn's heart - If Hydaelyn sundered her own heart, shouldn't she too be sundered? Are their copies of Hydaelyn on every shard? Speaking of which, how could Hydaelyn cross shards to snatch Minfilia's soul when that should be impossible? Also what's with taking Emet's soul when later he's brought to the end of the universe and presumably gets back to Etheirys no problem?

I dislike the writing around Venat to an extreme degree. It's screwed up on every level.

Even the sundered Ascians were able to travel the shards to capture Minfilia, though. Nabriales was originally in charge of the twelfth, for example.

If Azem's signature magic is teleporting companions to their side from across great distances, it makes sense for Emet's to be teleporting himself away from said companions across great distances. I'm not sure why everyone insists that Emet-Sulk is unsundered. He's clearly tsundered.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Even the sundered Ascians were able to travel the shards to capture Minfilia, though. Nabriales was originally in charge of the twelfth, for example.

If Azem's signature magic is teleporting companions to their side from across great distances, it makes sense for Emet's to be teleporting himself away from said companions across great distances. I'm not sure why everyone insists that Emet-Sulk is unsundered. He's clearly tsundered.

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Are you doing a word play? Or do you seriously not understand why we insist that Emet in unsundered?

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Originally Posted by Rannie

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Please don't make me explain the joke, b-baka.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Even the sundered Ascians were able to travel the shards to capture Minfilia, though. Nabriales was originally in charge of the twelfth, for example.

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Yes, but they couldn't do so bodily. So how could Hydaelyn go to the First and then come back?

https://i.imgur.com/g6xEMTh_d.webp?m...idelity=medium

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Yes, but they couldn't do so bodily. So how could Hydaelyn go to the First and then come back?

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It's probably not all that different from how Elidibus summons Ardbert and the Warriors of Darkness to the Source during the events of Heavensward. After all, we know that Minfilia heads back to the First with Ardbert, Branden, Renda-Rae, Nyelbert, and Lamitt during the events of 'One Life for One World.' (Heavensward), where they hold the fort until the events of Shadowbringers.

In 'The Word of the Mother' (Heavensward), Krile explains that a particular aetheric signature shows up both at the Isle of Val, which Krile escaped with Hydaelyn's help, as well as the Sil'dih Aqueducts when you were escaping Ul'dah, where Minfilia disappeared. Krile speculated even back then that 'Hydaelyn may have the capacity to summon the consciousness of gifted individuals to her side.' Now where have I heard that one before? She then hangs out in the Aetheric Sea with Hydaelyn until Urianger hatches his plot to give Minfilia and Ardbert the energy needed to go back to the First. Hydaelyn's connection to the individual shards is probably that they're all linked through the Aetheric sea and her ability to move people around is linked to the fact that she was formerly Azem. I'm not sure how the Ascians do it, however.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I dislike the writing around Venat to an extreme degree. It's screwed up on every level.

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We know, you make it painfully obvious every time you post, to a very annoying degree.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

We know, you make it painfully obvious every time you post, to a very annoying degree.

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Much like how certain posters make it painfully obvious that they loathe the Ancients, Ascians and/or Garleans...though mysteriously they're never called out despite being far more vocal and prone to toxicity and personal attacks.

Funny, that!

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

https://i.imgur.com/g6xEMTh_d.webp?m...idelity=medium

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Yep, it's a rather strange thing, and confirms something people had suspected from the Word of the Mother scene (depending on the language.) I checked the French version of this to see if it's any different, but it has the same wording. Quite what this implies of her and Zodiark's fragments on the other shards is a mystery, since they're primals and not living beings as such. In their case, it may have just carved off portions of their aetheric essence. I doubt they'll want to come back to them since their time is over so I imagine something like this will be the case.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

How Venat can be sundered? She's serving as Hydaelyn's heart - If Hydaelyn sundered her own heart, shouldn't she too be sundered? Are their copies of Hydaelyn on every shard? Speaking of which, how could Hydaelyn cross shards to snatch Minfilia's soul when that should be impossible? Also what's with taking Emet's soul when later he's brought to the end of the universe and presumably gets back to Etheirys no problem?

I dislike the writing around Venat to an extreme degree. It's screwed up on every level.

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All in a day's work for a supreme deity.

But yes, I agree.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's probably not all that different from how Elidibus summons Ardbert and the Warriors of Darkness to the Source during the events of Heavensward.

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I think you're misunderstanding me. How does Hydaelyn, a being with a body, travel between shards to uber people's souls around? When Minfilia took the WoDs to the First, none among the group had bodies. They all gave up their flesh to come to the Source to begin with.

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Urianger hatches his plot to give Minfilia and Ardbert the energy needed to go back to the First.

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Evidently she didn't really need it... Or Minfilia to begin with for that matter.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

We know, you make it painfully obvious every time you post, to a very annoying degree.

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Thanks I do my best, please subscribe to my newsletter for even more hardhitting Venat content.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Please don't make me explain the joke, b-baka.

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If the joke was actually good I wouldn't need to ask and please refrain from calling people idiots

Gosh, I didn't realize that I had posted in the Fishing sub-forum.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

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How does Elidibus, as the Warrior of Light, bring heroes from other shards into the First? He presumably doesn't walk them there. He summons them to his side from other shards, as Urianger explains in 'The Converging Light'. This isn't particularly surprising; Themis, as you'll recall, is pretty good at copying spells that he's seen once before. It's not hard to guess who he picked that trick up from. Likewise, we have evidence to support the fact that Venat can use Azem's signature ability herself, based on the information provided in 'The Word of the Mother', as I talked about in my earlier post. Which makes sense as well, because she was Azem.

Now the one wrench in all this is our trip to the 13th. As far as I can recall, everyone involved was able to make that journey with their bodies intact. So I can't tell what the rule actually is, or if this is just an inconsistency from before they formalized shard travel.

That being said, neither Elidibus nor Venat are actually 'alive' in the conventional sense, as we know from the second recording in Anamnesis Anyder ('Beneath the Surface'). So if either of them wanted to go for a stroll to another shard, they presumably could, given that their respective 'bodies' are made up of Creation magic.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I think you're misunderstanding me. How does Hydaelyn, a being with a body, travel between shards to uber people's souls around? When Minfilia took the WoDs to the First, none among the group had bodies. They all gave up their flesh to come to the Source to.

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Hydaelyn was constructed in a similar manner to Zodiark right? With a particular individual acting as an aetherial core. It would be possible for Venat to disconnect from Hydaelyn to move through the shards lifestreams.

I can also definitely see why she wouldn’t be so eager to do this, imagine if an Ascian had taken the risk to see Venat do this and just, steal Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Gosh, I didn't realize that I had posted in the Fishing sub-forum.

How does Elidibus, as the Warrior of Light, bring heroes from other shards into the First?

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He's not actually summoning them, it's a BS half-summoning that creates thin simulacra. I thought he mentioned this at the time.

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Likewise, we have evidence to support the fact that Venat can use Azem's signature ability herself, based on the information provided in 'The Word of the Mother', as I talked about in my earlier post. Which makes sense as well, because she was Azem.

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How would a summoning spell take the user from one shard to another? ...Come to think of it if Azem's spell can bring people across the Rift, and Emet knows it (as we clearly see him use it), why does he insist such magic would be impossible, even for him?

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Now the one wrench in all this is our trip to the 13th. As far as I can recall, everyone involved was able to make that journey with their bodies intact. So I can't tell what the rule actually is, or if this is just an inconsistency from before they formalized shard travel.

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With the 13th we were dealing with an actual rip in the interdimensional fabric and a bridge created by the Allagan's magic. Which again kind of makes one question why Emet was so incredulous that nothing within the tower could have helped the Exarch cross worlds, since the Allagans did actually do that, at the top of the tower no less.

Wasn't Elidibus just using the same spell that G'raha created to bring the WoL to the first and it was only weaker due to how many he was calling at the time? Also I only remember that he mentions before he sends us back to Elpis that he would kinda use the same ability but we would be even less tangible due to how far back we are going and how our aether was? I could remember that portion incorrectly though.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I dislike the writing around Venat to an extreme degree. It's screwed up on every level.

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I can't help but think Venat/Hydaelyn were subject to gratuitous rewrites between ShB and EW. The inconsistencies are simply too numerous for this to have been their plan all along.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Much like how certain posters make it painfully obvious that they loathe the Ancients, Ascians and/or Garleans.

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Even in threads that have nothing to do with them, which is the weird part.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I can't help but think Venat/Hydaelyn were subject to gratuitous rewrites between ShB and EW. The inconsistencies are simply too numerous for this to have been their plan all along.

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Or perhaps its as simple as having both expansions being presented from a different point of view. Shadowbringers was in many ways the expansion that allowed for Emet-Selch and by extension the ascians to provide their side of the story, their belief around what happened, same as Endwalker is Venat/Hydaelyn's turn to speak her truth of events. Neither Emet-Selch or Venat are, realistically speaking, reliable narrators as both have their own agendas and goals that they want to see happen. The closest thing to we get to a reliable narrator in Shadowbringers is in the Amanesis Anyder cutscenes, and even then they come from Emet-Selch's daydream of Amourot. The first time we got any concrete proof of what ancient society was like was in Elpis where we actually interacted with their society in its true state.

If that explanation doesn't suffice for you I have another idea of why the portrayals are different, there are multiple mentions in Endwalker about a confluence of our present time and the ancient world's time, what if the stable time loop we are in wasn't as perfect as originally planned? When we first speak with Hydaelyn after completing the Aitiascope it sounds as if she had never met us in person before then, despite us having met her in Elpis. At the end of Elpis Venat also mentions the possibility of our actions having created an alternate timeline that could fuse back into our own. Therefore it could be possible that the Venat we see in Shadowbringers is a Venat that never encountered us in Elpis and as such lacked knowledge of the future, it can also explain how Elidibus isn't sure he saw us in the past, he could be confused because he has memories of both timelines due to the new one being made but not yet re-joined.

And Meteion could still have ended up becoming the Endsinger because she still would have received the report from her sister regardless of our involvement and still run off to hide from Hermes where the knowledge she gained would still drive her to desire the end of all life.

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Even in threads that have nothing to do with them, which is the weird part.

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The pot calling the kettle black, both sides are guilty of bringing it up in places where it is not relevant and going tit for tat in who loathes who isn't good for a healthy conversation but from what I have seen in the last few days it is the 'we loathe Venat' group who starts a lot of these revolving door arguments by being the first to voice their complaints. You and Veloran are prime examples of this.

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Originally Posted by Kordarion

Or perhaps its as simple as having both expansions being presented from a different point of view. Shadowbringers was in many ways the expansion that allowed for Emet-Selch and by extension the ascians to provide their side of the story, their belief around what happened, same as Endwalker is Venat/Hydaelyn's turn to speak her truth of events. Neither Emet-Selch or Venat are, realistically speaking, reliable narrators as both have their own agendas and goals that they want to see happen. The closest thing to we get to a reliable narrator in Shadowbringers is in the Amanesis Anyder cutscenes, and even then they come from Emet-Selch's daydream of Amourot. The first time we got any concrete proof of what ancient society was like was in Elpis where we actually interacted with their society in its true state.

If that explanation doesn't suffice for you I have another idea of why the portrayals are different, there are multiple mentions in Endwalker about a confluence of our present time and the ancient world's time, what if the stable time loop we are in wasn't as perfect as originally planned? When we first speak with Hydaelyn after completing the Aitiascope it sounds as if she had never met us in person before then, despite us having met her in Elpis. At the end of Elpis Venat also mentions the possibility of our actions having created an alternate timeline that could fuse back into our own. Therefore it could be possible that the Venat we see in Shadowbringers is a Venat that never encountered us in Elpis and as such lacked knowledge of the future, it can also explain how Elidibus isn't sure he saw us in the past, he could be confused because he has memories of both timelines due to the new one being made but not yet re-joined.

And Meteion could still have ended up becoming the Endsinger because she still would have received the report from her sister regardless of our involvement and still run off to hide from Hermes where the knowledge she gained would still drive her to desire the end of all life.



The pot calling the kettle black, both sides are guilty of bringing it up in places where it is not relevant and going tit for tat in who loathes who isn't good for a healthy conversation but from what I have seen in the last few days it is the 'we loathe Venat' group who starts a lot of these revolving door arguments by being the first to voice their complaints. You and Veloran are prime examples of this.

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Anamnesis Anyder are actual ruins left over on the first from the Unsundered world just like the buildings the Ondo live in in the tempest. The description for the dungeon itself even states they are "Deep in the Tempest-deeper still than the phantom Amaurot of Emet-Selch's design- lies what remains of Anyder's ancient edifices. It is an unexplored corner of this bed of knowledge that the Scions now travel, in hopes that what has long slumbers forgotten may be brought to the surface once more."

It's the truth but it is missing pieces due to it being sundered as well.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Anamnesis Anyder are actual ruins left over on the first from the Unsundered world just like the buildings the Ondo live in in the tempest. The description for the dungeon itself even states they are "Deep in the Tempest-deeper still than the phantom Amaurot of Emet-Selch's design- lies what remains of Anyder's ancient edifices. It is an unexplored corner of this bed of knowledge that the Scions now travel, in hopes that what has long slumbers forgotten may be brought to the surface once more."

It's the truth but it is missing pieces due to it being sundered as well.

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Ah, I didn't know that, thanks for letting me know, it certainly does reinforce my point then that it is the only piece of unbiased ancient knowledge pre-Elpis.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

He's not actually summoning them, it's a BS half-summoning that creates thin simulacra. I thought he mentioned this at the time.

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Yup. He is essentially drawing upon that part of their aether where zeal burns most brightly in the moment before battle, and then bidding it to "destroy darkness". That fuels his primal batteries.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I can't help but think Venat/Hydaelyn were subject to gratuitous rewrites between ShB and EW.

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Or possibly within EW.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I can't help but think Venat/Hydaelyn were subject to gratuitous rewrites between ShB and EW. The inconsistencies are simply too numerous for this to have been their plan all along.

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Zodiark and Hydaelynn had many rewriting.
The crystal of darkness we saw in ARR MSQ is completely erased from the story.
I'm sure Hydaelynn was supposed to be the crystal, they just decided to reconsider her form because being a glowing rock isn't great.

The whole "return to the past" + "memory wipe" is a great way to do anything you want to the story.
I feel like it was initially planned to be "reliving a memory of Azem" rather than a straight up travel into the past. The memory being tied to the soul was often brought up but never exploited except for one cutscene.

I also feel like Meteion was added just to give a face to the Evil, the cry coming out from the star was completely ignored or may still need to be resolved (The giant serpent theories and all). Fighting a natural cause was probably less epic than fighting a big bad.

So yes, unlike ShB I can't help to also feel that EW got so many rewrites here and there during development time.

That purple crystal does get a little cameo, it or at least a similarly-colored big crystal is under the Zodiark arena. It was definitely a relic of when they didn't really know what they were doing with the Ascians yet (or even if they were ever doing anything else with the game, period), though. There was a recent bit with Radio Eorzea where Yoshi-P mentioned that; apparently the story bible Thancred's VA got given early on had something completely different, because they only figured out the angle on the Ascians much later. Likely, the same reason Emmerololth has a weird morality status.

And that's not necessarily a problem. Very few stories start and finish being written with the exact same plan persisting, because sometimes you'll just find out you have a better idea. Ideally you'll want to cover your tracks on that in later drafts, but if you're writing a serialized story of some kind, you just need to accept it to some degree. (The JoJo's Bizarre Adventure fandom has an 'Araki forgot' meme about all the plot threads the author sets up and drops, that should more accurately be 'Araki Follows the Fun' because he readily admits to doing exactly this, and the series is better for it.)

In fact, while I agree that Elpis was probably where that was centered, I completely disagree about why and how. Because the developers have never spoken about Venat and Hydaelyn in a way that suggests much changed especially late, but they have directly said that Emet-Selch's popularity blindsided them. I very much doubt Endwalker was being written in full at that time, but it was definitely being planned out, and I suspect that the feeling of 'we need to bring back Emet-Selch, he's a hit' was what elevated a shorter 'find the truth in the Ancients' time' segment (maybe an extended solo duty or a dungeon) into a whole zone, which then gave the intended focuses of that segment (Hermes, Venat, and Meteion) some more room to stretch and be fuller characters as well. And I doubt anyone here would say that Elpis was worse because they wrote Emet-Selch into it.

...I'd say I enjoyed it less because of him, but that's different.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Anamnesis Anyder are actual ruins left over on the first from the Unsundered world just like the buildings the Ondo live in in the tempest. The description for the dungeon itself even states they are "Deep in the Tempest-deeper still than the phantom Amaurot of Emet-Selch's design- lies what remains of Anyder's ancient edifices. It is an unexplored corner of this bed of knowledge that the Scions now travel, in hopes that what has long slumbers forgotten may be brought to the surface once more."

It's the truth but it is missing pieces due to it being sundered as well.

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I still think it's weird how that recording shows the ethereal Amaurot shades. Again, possibly a rewrites thing--they maybe didn't know they'd be giving the Ancients faces yet--and works to maintain their mystery, but it does mean that apparently Amaurot is just fine with seeing each other as weird ghosts all the time; Emet-Selch and Elidibus' memories could've faded over time, shades made in creation magic might have a reason for that form, and ghosts might just look like that, but the only way I can imagine it also persists to the Anamnesis recording is because the Ancients just want to record like that.

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Originally Posted by Kordarion

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Sorry if this has been discussed already but this can't simply be a matter of viewing things from a different perspective as inconsistencies with Hydaelyn's character can be seen even as far back as Heavensward. I recall there being a line back when she used Minfilia as her mouthpiece where she states she's failed at preventing 7 rejoining's, which we now know can't possibly be true since her entire plan hinged on us having come as far as we have. Considering she needed those rejoining's to happen, I'd sooner call them victories on her end.

Also, on the matter of converging timelines, ignoring that this expansion seems to brush aside what we've already learned about time travel in Shadowbringers, assuming that timelines are indeed "converging", I feel most of these changes would have occurred only after our trip to Elpis. Venat at the start of Endwalker mentions honoring some promise she made in another age, and Elidibus's words suggest we will eventually meet him in Elpis, but both of these conversations happen before we've even done anything to change the course of history. The simple fact that characters are referencing events that will, NOT might happen tells me the writers just want us to assume that it really is just a perfect closed loop.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

because the Ancients just want to record like that.

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They put on their, "we all wanna pretend we're a collective" filter! :3

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

They put on their, "we all wanna pretend we're a collective" filter! :3

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Resistance is Futile you will be ethereal.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Much like how certain posters make it painfully obvious that they loathe the Ancients, Ascians and/or Garleans...though mysteriously they're never called out despite being far more vocal and prone to toxicity and personal attacks.

Funny, that!

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Indeed. Just another example of a double standard. It’s almost like a mimicry of the story :p

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

Sorry if this has been discussed already but this can't simply be a matter of viewing things from a different perspective as inconsistencies with Hydaelyn's character can be seen even as far back as Heavensward. I recall there being a line back when she used Minfilia as her mouthpiece where she states she's failed at preventing 7 rejoining's, which we now know can't possibly be true since her entire plan hinged on us having come as far as we have. Considering she needed those rejoining's to happen, I'd sooner call them victories on her end.

Also, on the matter of converging timelines, ignoring that this expansion seems to brush aside what we've already learned about time travel in Shadowbringers, assuming that timelines are indeed "converging", I feel most of these changes would have occurred only after our trip to Elpis. Venat at the start of Endwalker mentions honoring some promise she made in another age, and Elidibus's words suggest we will eventually meet him in Elpis, but both of these conversations happen before we've even done anything to change the course of history. The simple fact that characters are referencing events that will, NOT might happen tells me the writers just want us to assume that it really is just a perfect closed loop.

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The thing with that Heavensward explanation is that during Heavensward they were re-writing the backstory of who the ascians were and why they where doing it, Yoshi-P said this in a recent interview. So it is possible that, that was a relic from the original iteration of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark dynamic.

Except that it was Shadowbringers, not Endwalker that caused problems when it comes to time travel in the story. In the Alexander raids there is plenty of time travel, all of which, (as far as I am aware), was of the closed loop variety making Shadowbringers the time travel problematic expansion. In regards to Elidibus him saying that is just before we travel to the past so could be, as I explained, a symptom of the simultaneous creation of and merging with the new timeline. The same could possibly be said about Hydaelyn considering that like Elidibus they are both primals and as such time could interact a bit wonkily with them.

tldr: they already messed up the rules of time travel in Shadowbringers so anything could happen when it comes to merging timelines.

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

Sorry if this has been discussed already but this can't simply be a matter of viewing things from a different perspective as inconsistencies with Hydaelyn's character can be seen even as far back as Heavensward. I recall there being a line back when she used Minfilia as her mouthpiece where she states she's failed at preventing 7 rejoining's, which we now know can't possibly be true since her entire plan hinged on us having come as far as we have. Considering she needed those rejoining's to happen, I'd sooner call them victories on her end.

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Hydaelyn directly said in her big Endwalker scene that she had faced failures, but was reassured that things would be okay by the stories we told her.

You're making the mistake of assuming that everything that happened was Exactly According To Plan. That she went 'okay we need to let exactly seven Rejoinings happen, one needs to only be a partial apocalypse, I need to make friends with an alien dragon that will turn up at some point' and then just stuck with that with no deviation or attempts to improve it. And... no, that's actually completely untrue. Venat wears her failures, she will admit to them, and the Rejoinings were just that--her failing.

However, you've made me realize something. In that Heavensward scene with Hydaelyn, she mentions that 'the darkness' will be unstoppable if the next Calamity is allowed to happen. First of all, kudos to the people who cast doubt on that 'darkness' being the Ascians and Zodiark, because now it makes sense that she could've been talking about the End of Days. But there was never any other evidence to it; the Ascians never acted like one more Rejoining was all they needed, and we know from G'raha's future that the Eighth Umbral Calamity doesn't necessarily do much different from others in terms of destructive force.

But now it's making more sense. It's not because she knows the Eighth Umbral Calamity is any different, because she doesn't and it's not. No, she puts that finality on it because she knows that, if she failed to stop the Rejoinings as she ends up doing, the Seventh Astral Era is the one that got closest. The Seventh Astral Era is the one that got far enough to learn what the deal is; not just us, but Sharlayan too. if the Eighth Umbral Calamity wipes both of them off the map, she's in uncharted territory, with the only stories she could hold on to as hope being torn to shreds.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Indeed. Just another example of a double standard. It’s almost like a mimicry of the story :p

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Like how the second time someone ever responded to a post of mine it was someone with problems with Venat who mocked me for my response to their statement about why Venat is a murderer? There are people on both sides of the debate who hold a double standard when it comes to Venat/the ancients and to smugly mock people, like you appear to be doing with that emoji (I could be wrong, it just seems that way), doesn't solve anything and instead makes your arguments about hypocrisy ring false.

I'm not saying you personally are being hypocritical but that some people on both sides are.

Edit: I probably have some part in this hypocrisy, I don't normally interact with forums and have a bad habit of poorly wording what I say and reacting too emotionally to opposing arguments and so sometimes go too far or don't say what I mean clearly enough and that definitely causes problems.

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

Sorry if this has been discussed already but this can't simply be a matter of viewing things from a different perspective as inconsistencies with Hydaelyn's character can be seen even as far back as Heavensward. I recall there being a line back when she used Minfilia as her mouthpiece where she states she's failed at preventing 7 rejoining's, which we now know can't possibly be true since her entire plan hinged on us having come as far as we have. Considering she needed those rejoining's to happen, I'd sooner call them victories on her end.

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I’ll admit I’m confused why many seem to believe she intended for the things to happen as we described to her and that was the plan. Yes, she had great hopes for us and liked us. No, does that mean all she did was to ensure our arrival. Venat never took for granted that things would play out exactly as we described, and she makes it clear she is going to fight her battles as they come. She says this clearly in Elpis.

https://i.imgur.com/OzegOYw.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/uWFfU3I.jpg

She also makes it clear that the conjunction in the timeline only began to form post Shadowbringers, meaning she did not believe it was certain to be occurring before then.

https://i.imgur.com/ckL7HhH.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0b8WmTg.jpg

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

Venat at the start of Endwalker mentions honoring some promise she made in another age, and Elidibus's words suggest we will eventually meet him in Elpis, but both of these conversations happen before we've even done anything to change the course of history. The simple fact that characters are referencing events that will, NOT might happen tells me the writers just want us to assume that it really is just a perfect closed loop.

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The promise seems to me to be her parting words in Elpis.

https://i.imgur.com/FrZ002G.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/MkMkPd0.jpg

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Hydaelyn directly said in her big Endwalker scene that she had faced failures, but was reassured that things would be okay by the stories we told her...

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But what failures? She must have already known we hailed from the 7th astral era. If she was already aware that we were as you say 'the one that got closest,' what reason would she have to prematurely declare any of the events leading up to the present as failures? Sure she could've had been filled with remorse over the lives lost as a result of her actions, but to suggest that they were anything but necessary casualties in her pursuit of her real goal is hard for me to believe. The prospect of history going down a different path than what we described to her would've no doubt been scary for her, but as far as were made aware, there were no deviations and everything went exactly as expected.

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Originally Posted by Kordarion

Like how the second time someone ever responded to a post of mine it was someone with problems with Venat who mocked me for my response to their statement about why Venat is a murderer? There are people on both sides of the debate who hold a double standard when it comes to Venat/the ancients and to smugly mock people, like you appear to be doing with that emoji (I could be wrong, it just seems that way), doesn't solve anything and instead makes your arguments about hypocrisy ring false.

I'm not saying you personally are being hypocritical but that some people on both sides are.

Edit: I probably have some part in this hypocrisy, I don't normally interact with forums and have a bad habit of poorly wording what I say and reacting too emotionally to opposing arguments and so sometimes go too far or don't say what I mean clearly enough and that definitely causes problems.

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1.How am i even mocking you with an emoji when my comment isn’t even responding to you, and 2.I think it can be a problem on both sides for sure, but i’ve never seen one side get called certain words like nazi’s or genocide sympathizers etc whereas the other side is called that typically on a normal basis if they showed any liking to garleans or the ancients what have you. Irregardless though that isn’t really what this thread is about and i’d rather not derail it more than it already has been. Was just giving my 2 cents.