Patch 6.05 Notes

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Originally Posted by Haseno

Why would they nerf Sage? Currently in high-end content they're 4th in Healing Per Second. Scholar beats Sage by 1%.

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hps is a terrible measure of healing power anyway since its all spikes rather than constant healing

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Originally Posted by Haseno

Why would they nerf Sage? Currently in high-end content they're 4th in Healing Per Second. Scholar beats Sage by 1%.

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So the shield healers, whose gimmick is preventing damage, are behind the pure healers, whose gimmick is restoring damage, when it comes to restoring damage. Um......

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Originally Posted by Fryfor

Lotta balance andies in this thread that also conveniently don't touch Savage at all.
Really puts it into perspective doesn't it?

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The game being balanced entirely around the difficulty mode a vast minority of players ever even touch seems like it's kind of an issue in the first place tbh.

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Originally Posted by Dewslam

The game being balanced entirely around the difficulty mode a vast minority of players ever even touch seems like it's kind of an issue in the first place tbh.

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Yes, absolutly....

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Originally Posted by Dewslam

The game being balanced entirely around the difficulty mode a vast minority of players ever even touch seems like it's kind of an issue in the first place tbh.

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Why? If every job is balanced for the hardest content in the game they will all be more than adequate for everything else.

No because its also tailored for the better players then, so everyone not as good (not even bad) cant play remotely this bad. For example I really suck at healing but its fun every now and then, yet i can deal with most things... most "pro" healers complain its too boring while basically everyday i encounter so terrible healers that really try but just cant... it would hurt the game too much if all of those need to straight up quit their job and go dps or something... giving us even less healers (or tanks)

Imo the game should never be tuned after stuff thats mostly premade...

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

No because its also tailored for the better players then, so everyone not as good (not even bad) cant play remotely this bad. For example I really suck at healing but its fun every now and then, yet i can deal with most things... most "pro" healers complain its too boring while basically everyday i encounter so terrible healers that really try but just cant... it would hurt the game too much if all of those need to straight up quit their job and go dps or something... giving us even less healers (or tanks)

Imo the game should never be tuned after stuff thats mostly premade...

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You are not talking about job balance at this point though.

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Originally Posted by Dewslam

The game being balanced entirely around the difficulty mode a vast minority of players ever even touch seems like it's kind of an issue in the first place tbh.

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If you're not playing a job to remotely its full potential, though, how would you even know what its actual throughput is?

Balancing around anything much lower than the 80th percentile quickly becomes a pointlessly chaotic endeavor because you're then balancing for the average contextual impact of mistakes rather than balancing the job toolkits, changes for which require foolproofing jobs more so than the kits' potencies or the like, else the moment the job that previously faced the most or largest mistakes simply becomes the new "OP must nerf!" job the moment they better learn how to play. And if you foolproof every job, what actual gameplay is left with which to attract players except for visual spectacle. The game already has little enough besides.

Job balance sucks at the moment
don't defend it because you are a fotm meta main or just have no idea what you are talking about

Hybrid taxes are a dumb, archaic concept. Instead of deliberately lowering jobs damage, they should just give all dps some form of utility, and strive for equal damage.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

Hybrid taxes are a dumb, archaic concept. Instead of deliberately lowering jobs damage, they should just give all dps some form of utility, and strive for equal damage.

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This is far too parser-centric in thought.

DRG has lower personal DPS than other certain other DPS because it adds some damage back in through buffs to the party. People should not focus solely on parse data but rather who clears and who doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

hps is a terrible measure of healing power anyway since its all spikes rather than constant healing

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HPS isn't a terrible measure. HPS just doesn't add context to all situations where healing is necessary. The fact remains that Sage and their healing potential is not broken. They feel more powerful than they actually are because of how Eukrasia functions by turning your spells into improved instant-cast abilities. Being able to bypass cast-times is amazing, but the Sage is still restricted to GCD cooldowns and oGCD abilities the same as Scholar.

The skill ceiling for Sage and Scholar are both high. Scholar to an even greater amount.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

So the shield healers, whose gimmick is preventing damage, are behind the pure healers, whose gimmick is restoring damage, when it comes to restoring damage. Um......

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Yes, healers are balanced right now with the exception of some bad changes to White Mage. The Thin Air Nerf and the Lilybell only working when the White Mage himself takes damage are horrific for the White Mage.

Asking for jobs NOT to be balanced around the Savage tier makes no sense, because under that, in Dungeon/Normals/Alliance/Non-EX Trials, every job *can* and *does* do the job.

No one excludes certain jobs from that content because *every single job performs just fine*. The first rare exception to this is the current DRK, which is struggling in dungeons but not in raids. Dungeons ONLY.

Asking for all the jobs to be balanced around dungeon level content is asinine and completely counter productive to all your arguments of "X job is already hard". If the entire game/job balance was around dungeons, *you'd have to try even harder to perform in said dungeons to accomplish what you are doing now*.

How do people not understand this? Balancing around Savage makes the casual content for casuals *easier*. Not harder.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Utterly nonsensical, I sure hope they address it directly. Why would any group EVER not take a sage at the current numbers they are doing? I think most healers were prepping simply on the premise that sage was absolutely going to get nerfed, their dps numbers are utterly absurd.

4.05, massive balance changes.
5.05, massive balance changes.

6.0 worse balanced than 4.0 and 5.0, almost zero balance changes and entirely miss all worst offenders.

Very hard to comprehend.

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Not really? Scholars with Expedient feels really good to use. Lots of people I know who is taking Scholar to savage raids says their team prefers Expedient for that movement speed buff that doubles as a mitigation tool. Plus, recovery is much easier on Scholar than on SGE.

Plus, SCH have raid buff, which only get stronger under raid buff stacking.

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Originally Posted by ArkenaeuxBelmont

How do people not understand this? Balancing around Savage makes the casual content for casuals *easier*. Not harder.

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Maybe the game shouldn't be so easy I can auto-attack through most of it with the only mildly challenging content being extreme and savage, which demands you jump through considerably more hoops than anything else just to do. But also Savage demands a different playstyle than the rest of the game, so balancing for it means balancing for the players who optimize and play as close to perfect as they can.

I think current monk is probably the best example of this; once you get the hang of blitz, its timers and the gist of what you're supposed to do, it's not hard to use at all and performs above how it feels like it is. But a lot of people struggle with keeping monk's blitz cycles going and fall out of synch which makes the class feel sloppy and awkward. So rather than rewarding you for performing well, it feels like you have to perform well for the class to not feel like a mess.

Basically, I guess, I'm saying that by tuning specifically for end game content it makes the rest of the game feel like it doesn't matter at all which, in turn, has made it all feel pretty dull and rote in comparison.

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Originally Posted by Dewslam

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Job balancing =/= content tuning, unless your only solution to job imbalance is power creep or reduction to the lowest bar.

Parity, in itself, does not make content harder, easier, or anything in between.

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But also Savage demands a different playstyle than the rest of the game, so balancing for it means balancing for the players who optimize and play as close to perfect as they can.

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You say that like it's a bad thing. That's literally what it means to balance kits and the actual available throughput, rather than to add handicap points based on average player performance gap. The mistakes and value of mistakes people are likely to make vary wildly; to compensate for them only creates yet another mess of imbalance the moment those couple parts more of a given job is mastered.

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I think current monk is probably the best example of this; once you get the hang of blitz, its timers and the gist of what you're supposed to do, it's not hard to use at all and performs above how it feels like it is. But a lot of people struggle with keeping monk's blitz cycles going and fall out of synch which makes the class feel sloppy and awkward.

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It makes the job feel sloppy... to those who haven't yet learned how to play it. That is not a bad thing. Having a kit to learn is, in itself, available gameplay -- enjoyable hours of progress to be made if simply cares to learn rather than throwing up their hands and demanding the job be balanced around their mistakes or that its floor be raised nearly to its ceiling. I would much rather struggle with a 'harder' job and actually learn it than for there to be no mechanic on said job really worth mastering.

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Originally Posted by Haseno

HPS isn't a terrible measure.

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HPS is absolutely a terrible measure. The messier a run and the less mitigation your group uses, the more you need to heal and the better your HPS. If a WHM spams Cure III immediately when damage happens and a Sage lets their HoT's and oGCD's do the work, the Sage will have bad HPS and the WHM won't. Many top healers will end a run with grey logs on healing, despite 0 deaths, simply because the group played efficiently. Sage has quite a lot of free oGCD's and can heal for free for longer before being forced to dip into GCD's.

Not saying Sage needs a nerf though, SCH and AST are comparatively more than fine when it comes to heal toolkit. If anything WHM needs a buff, because it's far behind.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

This is far too parser-centric in thought.

DRG has lower personal DPS than other certain other DPS because it adds some damage back in through buffs to the party. People should not focus solely on parse data but rather who clears and who doesn't.

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More like people who like to play dancer want to contribute more to the group than just "making someone else hit harder".

THEY wand to be valuable, not make other people valuable.

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Originally Posted by Dewslam

Maybe the game shouldn't be so easy I can auto-attack through most of it with the only mildly challenging content being extreme and savage, which demands you jump through considerably more hoops than anything else just to do. But also Savage demands a different playstyle than the rest of the game, so balancing for it means balancing for the players who optimize and play as close to perfect as they can.

I think current monk is probably the best example of this; once you get the hang of blitz, its timers and the gist of what you're supposed to do, it's not hard to use at all and performs above how it feels like it is. But a lot of people struggle with keeping monk's blitz cycles going and fall out of synch which makes the class feel sloppy and awkward. So rather than rewarding you for performing well, it feels like you have to perform well for the class to not feel like a mess.

Basically, I guess, I'm saying that by tuning specifically for end game content it makes the rest of the game feel like it doesn't matter at all which, in turn, has made it all feel pretty dull and rote in comparison.

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I'm not arguing the case to make the game easier.

I'm attempting to explain to people that have the viewpoint that "balancing a job's performance around their performance in savage" is somehow making the jobs "harder".

Believing that fact is a logical fallacy, because if a job is tiered to be balanced and perform well in savage, then it is going to perform well in more casual content with sub-optimal play.

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Originally Posted by ArkenaeuxBelmont

Believing that fact is a logical fallacy, because if a job is tiered to be balanced and perform well in savage, then it is going to perform well in more casual content with sub-optimal play.

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See, I think that is a fallacy, because it presumes that the complexity level of savage-level rotations will universally scale down for casual play. When in actuality rotations depend on certain patterns and combinations of abilities that can very easily be designed in a way that would be too obtuse for casual players to pick up and play "well".

For me this is SAM. I am absolutely a casual SAM player and my soft brain still hasn't had the opportunity to integrate any of its job abilities past level 54. The Kenki builders vs. Kenki spenders, the readying abilities, the Meditation stacks... And this is on top of the fact that I already know that the average DPS sprout isn't going to recognize the utility of using different Iaijutsu instead of going for Midare all the time.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

See, I think that is a fallacy, because it presumes that the complexity level of savage-level rotations will universally scale down for casual play. When in actuality rotations depend on certain patterns and combinations of abilities that can very easily be designed in a way that would be too obtuse for casual players to pick up and play "well".

For me this is SAM. I am absolutely a casual SAM player and my soft brain still hasn't had the opportunity to integrate any of its job abilities past level 54. The Kenki builders vs. Kenki spenders, the readying abilities, the Meditation stacks... And this is on top of the fact that I already know that the average DPS sprout isn't going to recognize the utility of using different Iaijutsu instead of going for Midare all the time.

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Which is completely fine that you aren't comfortable with the optimized rotation of SAM, because any of the casual content does not demand that you perform 100% perfectly to beat it. That's what I was trying to convey. The way the dungeons are tailored, they can be beaten by four sub-optimally playing WoL's. The threshold for beating them is lower, and since the jobs are balanced via Savage numbers, sup optimal levels match up with casual content. It trickles down from the top, is what I was trying to say.

Apologies if I wasn't conveying what I was attempting to say well enough.

You got my hopes up when i read your statement i saw glamour and i began think omg did i miss the part in the notes of them doing something with glamours, like adding more space or whatever, lol

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

More like people who like to play dancer want to contribute more to the group than just "making someone else hit harder".

THEY wand to be valuable, not make other people valuable.

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Or at least for that aid to be more interesting than just shuffling what would be their own numbers to someone else...

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I already know that the average DPS sprout isn't going to recognize the utility of using different Iaijutsu instead of going for Midare all the time.

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...I've yet to meet in-game a SAM who knew what LB, Sprint, and either among a "snapshot" or "donut" AoE were who didn't know to at least use Higan on bosses or Tenka in AoE. It's... quite basic stuff, and I don't see what relevance the "average DPS sprout" ought to have to ideal tuning. Why would we balance around, or constraint kits to, our bottom 20%?

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

See, I think that is a fallacy, because it presumes that the complexity level of savage-level rotations will universally scale down for casual play. When in actuality rotations depend on certain patterns and combinations of abilities that can very easily be designed in a way that would be too obtuse for casual players to pick up and play "well".

For me this is SAM. I am absolutely a casual SAM player and my soft brain still hasn't had the opportunity to integrate any of its job abilities past level 54. The Kenki builders vs. Kenki spenders, the readying abilities, the Meditation stacks... And this is on top of the fact that I already know that the average DPS sprout isn't going to recognize the utility of using different Iaijutsu instead of going for Midare all the time.

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There isn't such thing as a "savage level rotation". There is the correct rotation, and the wrong rotation. Hence why jobs get balanced around the proper execution of their rotation.

The patch was a huge disappointment. Like how they keep used old gear skins for the new crafted and tomes gear and no new content other than savage.