[ENDWALKER SPOILER!] On Zenos

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Ultimately, I think the mirror comparison falls flat.

He and the WOL share one thing in common, at most, with the love of pushing ones self and seeking out danger/thrills.

For Zenos that's all he is, the only thing that defines him as a person.

For the WOL, it's just one trait among many. My personal interpretation at the ending is that it's the WOL's desire to see their friends again and go back that calls the remote back to them via dynamus, where as Zenos is left alone with nothing else to live for. The just share that one thing in common but because that one thing is all Zenos is he overestimates their actual bond.

---

It was Zenos who called the remote for the WoL. Go to N-7000 in Ultima Thule and he will tell you that he recieved a Message after an erruption (guess it was after our Fight), which contained only 1 Word, it was an Order "Live".

Everything about the Garlean Empire feels underwhelming comparing to other story arcs we have in FF14. Emet-Selch being a interesting character because of being "Emet-Selch" but not being Solus zos Galvus. I have heard that FF14 was decided to end the Hydaelyn and Zodiac arc in 7.0 but because of how well-received ShadowBringer was Yoshi P decided to end the Hydaelyn and Zodiac arc in 6.0. My personal guess is the original 6.0 was going to be a Garlean Empire related arc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

...Overall, his role in Endwalker played out almost exactly how I was expecting it to; with the only thing that really shook me up being the lengths he went to try to tick us off by attempting to harm our friends using our own body.

---

The bit where he possessed us WAS a mad twist I did not see coming. That brutal walk as a dying nobody soldier to follow, knowing he could be doing who knows what. That was a cool effect.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpiritualPotato

Everything about the Garlean Empire feels underwhelming comparing to other story arcs we have in FF14. Emet-Selch being a interesting character because of being "Emet-Selch" but not being Solus zos Galvus. I have heard that FF14 was decided to end the Hydaelyn and Zodiac arc in 7.0 but because of how well-received ShadowBringer was Yoshi P decided to end the Hydaelyn and Zodiac arc in 6.0. My personal guess is the original 6.0 was going to be a Garlean Empire related arc.

---

Can you provide some evidence for this? I keep seeing the 7.0 ending for Hydealyn/Zodiak (also the 6.0 and 7.0 being merged comment) mentioned but never with any link to where this may have originated.

Edit: I'm not trying to be rude or anything, I just keep hearing this with no evidence and am not sure its the case and want to see if there is any proof it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StealthPaladin

The bit where he possessed us WAS a mad twist I did not see coming. That brutal walk as a dying nobody soldier to follow, knowing he could be doing who knows what. That was a cool effect.

---

Yeah, that was a really cool twist in the story, followed by a great duty that made me genuinely nervous/afraid for what was going to happen next. Most other duties before that didn't feel so nerve-wracking. I loved the whole experience around this.

I fully agree. Having Zenos, well....WIN, get exactly what he wanted, made the entire expansion's plot seem pointless.

If we were going to stop resisting his demands for a "just because" battle and give it to him......why did we resist all this time at all????? Why did we wait to give it to him until AFTER the final days had killed thousands or millions of people and caused their very souls to be destroyed?? It is literally a circumstance in which you have a battle w/ Zenos happening at the worst conceivable time to have it.
I went immediately from crying about my friends and the memories they'd brought back for the lovely ending to going "Huh? What!?! I can't say no?????? I have to give him his stupid rematch after ALL THAT??????" in an instant. We did almost everything we did to avoid the senseless nihilism in this expansion. Isn't making it so that the villain's plan worked kind of undoing...our win? And the whole point of the game?

It wasn't even like a "dark" ending where you were tricked into giving the baddie what he wanted all along. They say "you don't have to do this if you don't want to" and then give you no choice except to say you want to. And I mean sure, fine, roleplay an evil or zenos-like apathetic WoL if you want, but in terms of the story it makes no sense. If WoL agreed with Zenos, everything they've done before this point makes no sense. Comforting scared children and sacrificing yourself nobly to see them and others of the world safe is not how someone who "just lives to kill" acts lmao
To be clear: I like(d) Zenos! I thought he was refreshing. But there's really no way to look at this situation they wrote for him except "Man causes the final days to get a spar, gets his spar. Says he's glad this behavior was rewarded and he got no development in the ENTIRE EXPANSION somehow. More at 8"

Zenos explicitly refuted his initial claim back in Stormblood that we in truth exist just to seek out greater foes, instead acknowledging that such thrillseeking is merely a part of who we are as an adventurer...which was basically the extent of his character development, but I wasn't really expecting much in that regard anyways.

We're roped into fighting him because he's more then established what kind of trouble he can cause if he's left to his own devices and with the bigger problem of the Endsinger out of the way, it honestly would've been more out of character to just let him go free.

You could also consider it our moral victory in the end if you choose to believe he was ultimately unsatisfied and simply left with a realization of how empty his existence was.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpiritualPotato

Everything about the Garlean Empire feels underwhelming comparing to other story arcs we have in FF14. Emet-Selch being a interesting character because of being "Emet-Selch" but not being Solus zos Galvus. I have heard that FF14 was decided to end the Hydaelyn and Zodiac arc in 7.0 but because of how well-received ShadowBringer was Yoshi P decided to end the Hydaelyn and Zodiac arc in 6.0. My personal guess is the original 6.0 was going to be a Garlean Empire related arc.

---

I remember in an interview that we were supposed to finish with Garlemald in a later expansion and that ultimately, 8.0 was supposed to be the end of Zodiark and Hydaelynn.
But I don't have the sources for that... Therefore it remains a "just trust my memory".

But it's easy to see that the end went way too fast.
HW? All areas are tied to Ishgard and its skyes.
SB? All areas tied to Ala Mhigo or the East.
ShB? All Norvrandt.
EW? You're sent everywhere from the extreme west to Thavnair, go to Garlemald in a finger snap, oh boy here comes the moon.

Endwalker is all over the place, Garlemald conquered territory between Eorzea and the capital? No idea what they look like.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aneshda

It was Zenos who called the remote for the WoL. Go to N-7000 in Ultima Thule and he will tell you that he recieved a Message after an erruption (guess it was after our Fight), which contained only 1 Word, it was an Order "Live".

---

He doesn't know about the remote though. I suppose there is a slim chance he was informed by Krile prior to his departure, but we're talking paper-thin there. I think there's all kinds of 'cause and effect' at play. The WoL simply did not deserve to die out at the edge of the universe completely away from everyone and everything she/he loves, and whatever intangible forces are out there made sure that didn't happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aneshda

It was Zenos who called the remote for the WoL. Go to N-7000 in Ultima Thule and he will tell you that he recieved a Message after an erruption (guess it was after our Fight), which contained only 1 Word, it was an Order "Live".

---

I don't see that as proof the message came from Zenos. He's stranded on the end of the universe and probably didn't think to bring a radio tuned to alien frequencies.

In fact, the quest where that message is described to us indicates that it is Stigma-1's command to all of the Omicrons

I take it that the "powerful burst of energy" triggering the message was in fact Emet and Hyth flooding the zone with aether and allowing us to reclaim the Scions, which also seems to have affected other beings in the vicinity.

And Stigma-1 of course is the "leader" intelligence at least partly housed in M-017, who was spontaneously caring for the living tree and with whom G'raha had to reason to find our path forward.

It makes far more sense to me that the sending of the message was linked with unentangling the Scions – and perhaps the other beings – from the aether of the world once they were no longer required to hold it together. And certainly fitting with the earlier plot for M-017 to be sending that message.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CKNovel

But it's easy to see that the end went way too fast.
HW? All areas are tied to Ishgard and its skyes.
SB? All areas tied to Ala Mhigo or the East.
ShB? All Norvrandt.
EW? You're sent everywhere from the extreme west to Thavnair, go to Garlemald in a finger snap, oh boy here comes the moon.

Endwalker is all over the place, Garlemald conquered territory between Eorzea and the capital? No idea what they look like.

---

Stormblood itself has always been complained about for being "all over the place", and now it's an example of being stable...?

That irony aside, I think the further we get into the plot, unless we have the time to devote a whole expansion to a single location (say, if we'd done Ilsabard instead of the First) then I think the grand finale was always going to have to cover a multitude of locations. Otherwise either this hypothetical 6.0 prior to finishing with "7.0: Endwalker" is going to have to go to more obscure places while they still save the big event locations for 7.0 (and people ask "why have we still not seen Thavnair yet?"), or they use those locations in 6.0 and then have to find somewhere else to be the target of the Final Days in 7.0, because apparently it's a rule that the big story events have to happen in new zones.

Given the weirdness of dynamis and aether in general, a vague wish can be made manifest in all the manner of different ways; Thancred's own wish managing to transform Ultima Thule into a perfectly habitable environment being a testament to that.

It does feel like something they'll likely just leave open to interpretation rather then spelled out plainly, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

I don't see that as proof the message came from Zenos. He's stranded on the end of the universe and probably didn't think to bring a radio tuned to alien frequencies.

In fact, the quest where that message is described to us indicates that it is Stigma-1's command to all of the Omicrons

I take it that the "powerful burst of energy" triggering the message was in fact Emet and Hyth flooding the zone with aether and allowing us to reclaim the Scions, which also seems to have affected other beings in the vicinity.

And Stigma-1 of course is the "leader" intelligence at least partly housed in M-017, who was spontaneously caring for the living tree and with whom G'raha had to reason to find our path forward.

It makes far more sense to me that the sending of the message was linked with unentangling the Scions – and perhaps the other beings – from the aether of the world once they were no longer required to hold it together. And certainly fitting with the earlier plot for M-017 to be sending that message.

---

Not only stranded; he's also very dead, having succumbed to his injuries. Was it his dying wish? Again, there is nothing to indicate that would be true, but also not out of the realm of possibility. I found this on reddit. It's pretty close to how I remember the interactions with the Scions after regaining control of our character after completing the MSQ. The dialogue is from Urianger in specific reference to this incident.

Quote:

---

I understand that, following thy clash with Zenos, the teleportation device thou had discarded fell to thee from on high. To return to thee in such a manner... I did confer with Wilfsunn and Bloewyda, yet they insist the device was possessed of no such capability. 'Twas a miracle befitting the nature of that place, where emotion becometh tangible reality. Whence, then, arose this timely wonder? Thine ardent wish...or another's fervent prayer?

---

I think all we can accurately take from the matter is the will for the WoL to return to their friends and home was beyond anything measurable. Whose will that belongs to is anyone's guess. I feel those intangible forces are at play in this universe as much as it is ours. Hermes is another example of this. Nothing explains why Kairos not only did not truly reconfigure his memory, but also saw fit to ensure these memories would haunt his soul for all eternity; no matter how many times it would be reincarnated before facing oblivion.

I know this is a bit older but thank you! You have put into words what I've been trying to explain to people about why I feel crestfallen at the end of EW.

I'm still salty that I couldn't flip off Zenos and leave him stranded on the edge of space with no one to fight and no way to end his life. Not only did I have to put up with him getting shoved in our face, but the game forced me to indulge his desire with no narrative option to not consent.

And to do so after I beat the real end boss for no reason was immensely distasteful. If you couldn't find a place for Zenos in the narrative make him a mid-expansion boss and clear his piece off the board. Don't rob us of victory after conquering the End of Days by having us almost die to a cranky toddler.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HappyHubris

I'm still salty that I couldn't flip off Zenos and leave him stranded on the edge of space with no one to fight and no way to end his life. Not only did I have to put up with him getting shoved in our face, but the game forced me to indulge his desire with no narrative option to not consent.

And to do so after I beat the real end boss for no reason was immensely distasteful. If you couldn't find a place for Zenos in the narrative make him a mid-expansion boss and clear his piece off the board. Don't rob us of victory after conquering the End of Days by having us almost die to a cranky toddler.

---

All of this. The worst part is that it isn't even treated as a friendly sparring match but a fight to the death, with the WoL scripted to basically die and revive by pure determination twice.

My character should not be willing to risk everything here, just to indulge Zenos's whims, to the point of possibly not returning to the people she actually cares about.

---

Late edit: "Friendly" was perhaps not the right word. But... safe. Somewhere that the Scions know where I am and that I'm probably going to need some healing when it's all over.

To expand a bit, the focus on building Zenos up and then doing absolutely nothing with the character also left Endwalker without a satisfying villain:
-Fandaniel offed himself four levels into the expansion.
-Zenos was AFK pouting for 99.9% of the time and had no narrative purpose.
-Meteion was more of a force of nature than a direct antagonist, and she didn't drive the events of the expansion. While I enjoyed her as a final boss, she was more of an obstacle than a villain. The final fight was like putting out a raging wildfire before it could burn down a continent, not a clash of sides.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

All of this. The worst part is that it isn't even treated as a friendly sparring match but a fight to the death, with the WoL scripted to basically die and revive by pure determination twice.

My character should not be willing to risk everything here, just to indulge Zenos's whims, to the point of possibly not returning to the people she actually cares about.

---

You raise a good point. The WoL is characterized as a warm friend of the Scions who wants nothing more to return to them after a well-fought victory. Instead we're goaded into almost throwing everything away to fight an angry townie at the bar.

Even if we decided to just ignore Zenos again, I felt it unlikely that he wouldn't have eventually pulled another destructive stunt to get our attention.

He was simply too dangerous and unpredictable to be left to his own devices.

There are really people out here who wanted let a monster who could bring ruin to most of the known cosmos with his power live just for the sake of a Twitter burn.

Wild.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

All of this. The worst part is that it isn't even treated as a friendly sparring match but a fight to the death, with the WoL scripted to basically die and revive by pure determination twice.

My character should not be willing to risk everything here, just to indulge Zenos's whims, to the point of possibly not returning to the people she actually cares about.

---

I just tend to see him as the annoying ex (great when you first get together then you break up) that you do your best to try and ignore until you had to say screw it and put a restraining order on them (kill him in Ultima Thule) just to be done with him...

Basically he did threaten the people we held dear all because he didn't want to get over us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

There are really people out here who wanted a let monster who could bring ruin to most of the known cosmos with his power live just for the sake of a Twitter burn.

Wild.

---

Why should the WoL and the Scions always win every thing? Can't we just one time loose something? And like he said, "Stronger than any I have faced. Against you, I need bring all to bear" He could have not ruined this World. Who is left as foe now? No one, cause we purged the World of foes and all in the Name of Hydaelyn. This World is now boring. I don't want to go on Adventures with Krile, the Twins or Fake Dead Lady. I don't even care about most of the things Emet hinted at. Why should we visit these places? Were our adventures really adventures, or rather correcting the mistakes of the ancients? What did Emet leave in the locations besides chaos?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

Even if we decided to just ignore Zenos again, I felt it unlikely that he wouldn't have eventually pulled another destructive stunt to get our attention.

He was simply too dangerous and unpredictable to be left to his own devices.

---

Then why did we ignore him when he was weaker on the moon? He's either a threat that requires immediate extermination or he isn't.

Also note that I specifically wanted to ignore him and strand him at the edge of the universe, never to return.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

There are really people out here who wanted let a monster who could bring ruin to most of the known cosmos with his power live just for the sake of a Twitter burn.

Wild.

---

Quote:

---

I'm still salty that I couldn't flip off Zenos and leave him stranded on the edge of space with no one to fight and no way to end his life.

---

I specifically wanted to strand him, not lovingly bring him back to Eorzea to wreck more havoc.

Given that Zenos gorged himself on the Mothercrystal and was able to travel to Ultima Thule in an instant, I very much doubt he was "stranded" anywhere. More like incredibly dangerous and able to go wherever he pleases.

That being said I love Zenos as a character and was sad to see him die, the fight was a highlight for me though.

Yeah, he literally flew through time and space to get to us. It's short-sighted to think he couldn't do it again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

Yeah, he literally flew through time and space to get to us. It's short-sighted to think he couldn't do it again.

---

pretty much this. saying that Zenos has NO WAY of coming back is utterly ridiculous.
1. he's died before, and they left his second death "vague" almost certainly on purpose. everytime they've done this, the character has come back. the writers also have no qualms about fake deaths.
2. he can't die because of his Resonant, and Elidibus confirmed he is immortal. he has an insanely powerful, basically Ascian and maybe Ancient soul. Ascians can body hop, resurrect bodies, and teleport. he's shown he can do this.
3. he has that voidsent Yoshi P talked about in multiple interviews and we still haven't seen it do anything.
4. we left him in that zone Meteion filled with "hope and rebirth"
5. according to the expert dungeon quests, the Ragnarok, through the power of dynamis, is available right there in Ultima Thule
6. every other "strong" being that's died has poofed into aether. Yotsuyu, Ysayle, Emet, etc. it kinda shows the audience they're gone for good (Emet is a special case lol) he also didnt poof in his first death and even had his throat cut and.....look how that turned out.
7. we still dont know why he had Final Days dreams, and what exactly Emet did to him to cause these dreams.
8. Yoshi P said Zenos is a reaper for "a reason" that we still don't know, and he's the only reaper NPC in the MSQ.
ignoring all of this is ignoring facts because people wish him to be gone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

Yeah, he literally flew through time and space to get to us. It's short-sighted to think he couldn't do it again.

---

Where would he get aether though? As they said on Elpis, universe is predominantly dynamis, Etheirys was an exception.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

Yeah, he literally flew through time and space to get to us. It's short-sighted to think he couldn't do it again.

---

remember that it was said that the aether from the mothercrystal we used to go to Ultima Thule was used up in the process of traveling, the only reason we can return is because the Ragnarok somehow exists in both Labarynthos and Ultima Thule simultaneously, whereas Zenos would have used all his fuel to get to Ultima Thule and couldn't return. And even if he could break free of the no-longer-dead-star, his only way home is via the Ragnarok which he wouldn't know existed in both places simultaneously.

Edit: Zenos himself says he fed on the remnants of the mothercrystal, implying we used the lion's share with the Ragnarok, there may not have been enough left for him to make a return trip like we did.

Zenos' role in the story didn't really bother me all that much even though I hate Zenos as a character (for most of the same reasons as stated by OP), simply because his narrative presence is so minor. Like the entire story of Endwalker could have been written to exclude Zenos and it would have made no real difference in the way events play out (it probably would have been better tbh). Which makes it kind of weird that they brought him back at all even after completing his arc in Stormblood. It's like they revived him with no real plans about what they would use him for, except that they loved this idea of having a personal nemesis for the WoL.

But for me they missed the mark on that. As much as they try to imply that my character is really just a bloodthirsty adventurer who fights for the pure joy of it, the WoL has believable moral motivations for pretty much everything they do in the story. So trying to use Zenos to "prove" the WoL's true nature and draw corny parallels with the player (who wants to be entertained by a video game where you kill stuff) was kind of insulting, offensive even. Sure some players will see it that way, but some won't, and forcing one perspective was pretty lame considering they're usually careful to leave the WoL's personality open-ended.

Like OP the part that bothers me is that you are given no choice but to agree with Zenos' assessment of you, that you are like him and fight for pleasure. In fact he even outright says that if you want to walk away he won't stop you, implicitly making our battle the WoL's true personal desire no matter what dialogue option you pick. I'd have been totally satisfied if we actually did have the option to walk away and just leave him there unfulfilled forever, but it would have meant having a completely different second ending, which maybe was impossible depending on their story plans. Would have been worth it imo. Zenos lovers get their final showdown, Zenos haters get to deny him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kordarion

remember that it was said that the aether from the mothercrystal we used to go to Ultima Thule was used up in the process of traveling, the only reason we can return is because the Ragnarok somehow exists in both Labarynthos and Ultima Thule simultaneously, whereas Zenos would have used all his fuel to get to Ultima Thule and couldn't return. And even if he could break free of the no-longer-dead-star, his only way home is via the Ragnarok which he wouldn't know existed in both places simultaneously.

Edit: Zenos himself says he fed on the remnants of the mothercrystal, implying we used the lion's share with the Ragnarok, there may not have been enough left for him to make a return trip like we did.

---

I recall some dialogue somewhere in a sidequest or something saying that the Ragnarok's journey created an aetherial link/current between Etheirys and Ultima Thule which is why we can teleport to Ultima Thule and back.

The whole Zenos ending feels forced and imho ruins the climactic feeling after the Endsinger battle.
I get the impression that they resurrected him and had plans for him, which ultimately didn't make the cut. I remember Yoshi saying somewhere it wasn't originally intended to end until 7.0 or 8.0, so my take is, whatever they wanted to do with him didn't make it into the game. Yet they needed an ending for him, so this is what we got.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PangTong

Like OP the part that bothers me is that you are given no choice but to agree with Zenos' assessment of you, that you are like him and fight for pleasure. In fact he even outright says that if you want to walk away he won't stop you, implicitly making our battle the WoL's true personal desire no matter what dialogue option you pick. I'd have been totally satisfied if we actually did have the option to walk away and just leave him there unfulfilled forever, but it would have meant having a completely different second ending, which maybe was impossible depending on their story plans. Would have been worth it imo. Zenos lovers get their final showdown, Zenos haters get to deny him.

---

You're only agreeing with his assessment of you if you picked the first option.

Being roped into fighting him stems simply from the fact that the bigger problem has been dealt with now and he remains the next largest threat to the world's safety. We only chose not to fight him sooner because he was actively disinterested in it and we had more important things to worry about at the time.

Quote:

---

he remains the next largest threat to the world's safety

---

Does he though? Because all of his antics from ShB through Endwalker does not make him feel that way. I am on team "I just wanted to walk away." Zenos has not felt threatening since we defeated him at the end of Stormblood. Even when he takes over the WoL's body, well, that was all facilitated by Fandaniel. Zenos just went along for the ride. He did not feel like a threat to me. I didn't hate him. I didn't want to fight him for any reason, not for revenge, not because he was dangerous... he just didn't inspire any of that in me. I wanted to go back to my friends, and honestly refusing to fight Zenos feels like a better way to defeat him and all of his weird stalker-ness than actually defeating him in combat. Mostly, he felt so pathetic and whiny to my WoL that I didn't have strong feelings about him at all, except wanting to ignore him. I certainly didn't want to give him what he wanted and I certainly didn't see him as the next biggest threat to the world. He was just a sad defeated man trying to re-live his glory days.

TLDR if this is the reason why there is no option to just walk away from him, the story utterly failed to make him feel threatening whatsoever.

The implication was he was actively manipulating Anima behind the scenes to help set Fandaniel's plan in motion.

The man doesn't know how to get our attention discreetly so I'd half-expect him to make himself known once he's sufficiently bored by setting one of the city states ablaze or some such.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

The implication was he was actively manipulating Anima behind the scenes to help set Fandaniel's plan in motion.

---

Eh, I didn't really get that same impression. We know that Fandaniel was manipulating both of the major sides in the Garlean civil conflict so it really feels to me like Zenos really didn't have much to do with any of that outside of possibly being a figurehead... but even in that regard everyone in Garlemald was tempered to supreme leader Varis and not Zenos. Maybe Zenos was able to somehow pull the strings on Varis as a puppet in some odd way just due to familial relation but, even if he was doing it, it never felt like he was doing it of his own accord and more like everything he did except for lusting after the WoL was at Fandaniel's direction/manipulation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lelila38

The whole Zenos ending feels forced and imho ruins the climactic feeling after the Endsinger battle.
I get the impression that they resurrected him and had plans for him, which ultimately didn't make the cut. I remember Yoshi saying somewhere it wasn't originally intended to end until 7.0 or 8.0, so my take is, whatever they wanted to do with him didn't make it into the game. Yet they needed an ending for him, so this is what we got.

---

On the contrary I felt it was very welcome and served to show that the endsinger is not the end, contrary to what we are led to see with all the supposedly superior and advanced races that fell.

I really liked how Zenos pedantly swipes all of that, hinting that there can definitely be more to come, in a deus ex machina way, similar to the way Emet-Selch talks to the player before with all the possible regions.

I just want to chime in on this thread to offer my feedback in case its read on this forum. I don't particularly like Zenos and he ended up being kind of a ridiculous joke between me and my bf (we were playing together and have read the entire game aloud in our playthrough and discussed everything all the time). BUT, I could have been fine with whatever happened with him if he hadn't been dropped like a bucket of cold water on the amazing emotional ending I'd just experienced. He didn't deserve to be there and it was the opposite of emotionally fulfilling to have his character dumped on me. I'm sure we could have had a nice fight somewhere in one of the patches where he actually wasn't going to ruin my vibe.

edit: I guess I kind of necroed this thread. It was the first one I came across when I was googling if other people felt like I did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Meerkats

I could have been fine with whatever happened with him if he hadn't been dropped like a bucket of cold water on the amazing emotional ending I'd just experienced. He didn't deserve to be there and it was the opposite of emotionally fulfilling to have his character dumped on me.

---

Prettymuch this. I was so set to have an emotional ending of fighting the Endsinger alongside my regained allies and friends, and suddenly they were all swept away and Zenos was there instead for that final battle, and it just felt so wrong. He did not narratively deserve to be there. He had not earned it.

It ruined our quiet emotional moment with Meteion afterwards as well, knowing he was standing there just out of frame, probably bored and waiting for us to be done with it.

If you're looking at Zenos through the lens of the Stormblood MSQ, then I see where you're coming from. He's lowkey been on our side since then, though. In particular, Shadowbringers had Zenos putting an end to Elidibus' plot to kill the clashing armies with the Black Rose poison. Zenos also had the opportunity to kill off both Gaius and Estinien in the follow-up fight, which is certainly something that he would have done in the Stormblood MSQ, but he offers them an out to escape. Likewise, the showdown with Jullus in Garlemald is another place where he would have ordinarily killed someone off for the enjoyment of it, but he seems to have somehow had a change of heart and perspective. I felt like they've teased his redemption arc for a while now.

He reminds me of Seifer in a lot of ways. Irritating and obnoxious at times, but you also get a sense that he's isolated himself as a function of his experiences, and had things been different you could have been friends working towards a common goal. Although with Seifer you're left with the sense that he at least has Fujin and Raijin to help him move on. I feel like Zenos is our responsibility in some ways.

I'm actually completely fine with Zenos turning up for the Endwalker finale. Partly because it was just a hilariously over-the-top answer to 'what else could they possibly pull out for this', partly because it brings previous villains to the table for the callback-heavy finale that aren't Emet-Selch (consider that Shinryu is just as much the result of Thordan, Ilberd and Nidhogg than Zenos), and partly because, honestly, it is a great resolution for Zenos' arc. He shows that he can do good and be a hero, that he actually did reflect on what Alisaie said and tried to helped people...

And most crucially, that he doesn't really want to. It's not in him to go be a big damn hero, he knows what he wants from life and it's not that. A redemption arc implies that the person doing so is better and more fulfilled for turning to what we see as 'good', and for Zenos, that's absolutely untrue.

My main problem wasn't with all that so much as with the fact that we can't turn him down for the fight and leave. Partly because I don't agree at all with how he defines the WoL, partly because it'd actually put his character growth to the test, and partly because I don't think I'm the only person who finished the Endsinger at like 3am because they assumed that was the end and then had to make that annoying choice of 'do I do the Zenos fight now when it feels right but I'm tired, or do I leave it until tomorrow and have a weirdly-timed ending'.

I'm not really a big fan of Zenos, but Endwalker was hardly the problem part of it. I've got a friend who once pointed out to me that Zenos almost feels like two, maybe two-and-a-half different characters that all happen to look and sound the same; Stormblood Zenos and Endwalker Zenos don't really flow into or complement each other, and while Shadowbringers Zenos does connect more cleanly to Endwalker Zenos they still don't really feel like the same character on the same journey. None of those journeys are necessarily bad, even if they are flawed (personally I feel like Zenos could've used some more EW scenes to show his growth rather than just turning up having already grown), but they just don't necessarily feel like one contiguous person's journey and development.