Black Mage - the solution for everything?

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

So to spin off of the above, which essentially gives 4 different HP pools, each weak/resistant to a different form of attack. How about Bosses that have multiple body parts, ALL of which need to be destroyed for the clear. So keeping the same 4 HP pools attach each to a different body part. Head/Arms/Legs/Torso

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I like this but people will still stack to eliminate the most dangerous "parts" of a mob if they attach attacks to it. Would be pretty cool though and would bring back disabling to the game a bit. Would also be pretty effective if they incorporated it as all 4 pools per body part but different resistances. Could also use it to ramp up difficulty through a boss fight as more and more body parts are disabled or trigger other abilities on other parts when one or more parts are eliminated. Lots of ways to go with it, all depends on how in depth they want the boss to be.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

2. Other MMO's are more gear dependent. In these fights, a well geared player will survive and perform substantially more DPS than someone without as much gear. In FFXIV, besides BLM, stacking up stats are truly minimal at most and FFXIV overall is more ability/skill dependent.

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From what I've seen, this is a two-fold problem. Firstly that gear still has small numbers in terms of stats unless you're double/triple melding materia. Secondly, stat scaling is not what it should be for melee and ranged to be on par with each other.

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3. Requirements to win the fight add difficulty to ranged, mage, and melee. Other MMOs (If you can't tell by now, I am mainly referencing to WoW) make conditions that make it difficult for the whole party, not just people near the boss. Right now, FFXIV only punishes players who are too close to the boss. Chimera is an example. He is hard enough without the poison being applied and that one large thunder attack people had to find a small exploit to avoid.

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Very much this. That's why I mentioned stuff like Shadow Crash that singles out ranged without affecting melee at all. You can have mechanics like this alongside with any risks for melee being tossed in. WoW bosses also have AoE that hit everyone, but by the same token healing a group in WoW is a lot easier than healing a group in FFXIV because of burst heals, HoTs and smart heals.

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4. FFXIV simply makes other jobs more convenient than others. BLM and WAR have access to many AoE abilities while DRG and MNK only get one real AoE attack that is on a large timer. You either need to tone down AoE on those jobs by making the AoE powerful, but the damage number divides by how many enemies you hit, or you need to give DRG/MNK more AoE usability. The first option makes it so DPS is on par with the other jobs, but it is hitting all enemies at once. Like WAR takes everything down slowly with AoE, but DRG and MNK take one by one down faster, matching the speed it takes for a WAR to take all of them down.

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This goes back to my comment about paradigms and how classes and jobs that are vying for the same role should be balanced around the same paradigm. WAR should not be this AoE beast of a job because it hurst the melee DPS as well as PLD since it has higher AoE capability. So you neither tone down WAR AoE damage so that it can be used frequently but for less damage per use, or up everyone else's AoE ability (or grant AoE ability in the case of PLD).

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5. All classes bring something to the table. In WoW, all classes have some special buff or debuff that really benefits the party. Rather it be a Paladin's King buff, a Hunter's Mark of the Wild, a Death Knight's Horn of Winter, and so on. These buffs bring a lot to the party, and why most raids have people seeking at least one of every class in a group. Bard is FFXIV's answer to this, but other jobs should have passive traits that benefit the party in a way that doesn't affect the Bard.

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If I were designing things, I'd make it so BRD has the short-duration but decently potent buffs, and give the other jobs something either passive (like giving PLDs an equivalent to Heroic Presence), or short-cast and long duration buffs that are less potent.

The problem is obviously very complex, but I agree that it can be solved.

I think another issue is that even if attacks can be avoided, a DD has their DPS affected by having to dodge all the time whereas for the most part BLM and BRD are free to continue unleashing hell on mobs. It might be possible to do content without blm and brd but it's a bit naive to think that it's entirely a community issue and that certain jobs don't experience some pretty harsh penalties.

mnk and drg have some pretty awkward positional combos to use whereas brd and blm have very very simple combos. blm only has to avoid being resisted (which is kind of present in mnk and drg's combos in the form of physical accuracy) in order to combo. brd in order to combo has to just use their first ws more than 8 malms from the target. While it isn't exactly hard to do the mnk and drg positional combos in normal situations, current endgame has mobs moving around a lot and require close range jobs to run out of range a lot, the latter of which hurts DPS without even taking into account combo positioning.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

I like BLM burns because they are fun in addition to being efficient. If you don't like BLM burns, don't do them, nobody is forcing you to. If you can't get into any parties but BLM burn parties, well, form you own. Again, nobody is stopping you from doing so.

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while I think blm burns are good and efficent and awesome they shouldn't be a viable option for EVERY fight they make

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Originally Posted by Majidah

while I think blm burns are good and efficent and awesome they shouldn't be a viable option for EVERY fight they make

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I never argued that it should be. My point is this: if you're not the party leader, you have no right to complain. Don't like what the leader is doing? Lead your own group.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

I never argued that they should be. My point is this: if you're not the party leader, you have no right to complain. Don't like what the leader is doing? Lead your own group.

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Again, MMO players are a hive. Opposing the hive gets you nowhere. Not to mention (again), playing the job and class you like should never be an uphill battle against other players.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Again, MMO players are a hive. Opposing the hive gets you nowhere.

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Only if you don't form your own groups and strategies.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

I never argued that it should be. My point is this: if you're not the party leader, you have no right to complain. Don't like what the leader is doing? Lead your own group.

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That sounds great in theory. The problem is, finding enough people to put in your group who don't expect you to go the "stacking BLMs" route because "it's how you're supposed to do it". Suggesting you're going to do it differently is going to get a lot of {thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass} responses.

I ran into that issue so many times in XI, and in other MMOs. It has as much to do with breaking people of their often drone-like insistance on "playing the way the guides and walkthroughs say you're supposed to".

So, while I am in agreement with you that people can form their own groups, it's not really a 100% solution to the problem. There has to be a way to get people away from the attitude of "X strategy is THE way to do this content and if you're not doing it that way then you're playing wrong" that permeates a MMO community. I think that's going to have to come from SE by introducing fights with strategies that require more variety in the group and in which stacking of a given class will not be a sound approach. I'd like to think more people would take the initiative to find alternate, and still viable strategies. Unfortunately, many people prefer to just do what everyone else is doing.

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

That sounds great in theory. The problem is, finding enough people to put in your group who don't expect you to go the "stacking BLMs" route because "it's how you're supposed to do it". Suggesting you're going to do it differently is going to get a lot of {thanks for the offer, but I'll have to pass} responses.

I ran into that issue so many times in XI, and in other MMOs. It has as much to do with breaking people of their often drone-like insistance on "playing the way the guides and walkthroughs say you're supposed to".

So, while I am in agreement with you that people can form their own groups, it's not really a 100% solution to the problem. There has to be a way to get people away from the attitude of "X strategy is THE way to do this content and if you're not doing it that way then you're playing wrong" that permeates a MMO community. I think that's going to have to come from SE by introducing fights with strategies that require more variety in the group and in which stacking of a given class will not be a sound approach. I'd like to think more people would take the initiative to find alternate, and still viable strategies. Unfortunately, many people prefer to just do what everyone else is doing.

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I haven't had any issues trying different strategies, other than death of course.

I dunno, not to sound cliche but people should just play what they want.

I made my first priority getting PGL/MNK to 50 because I really enjoy hand-to-hand type classes and I actually really enjoy what SE has done with the job/class thus far. Having said that, I'm now leveling THM and just unlocked BLM last night - because I wanted to. I happen to like having some versatility, so at 50 I'll be able to bring the pain by physical or magical means depending on what's needed.

Am I gonna be asked to play BLM more often than not by my LS or social pick-up groups? Maybe. Am I gonna enjoy it regardless? Hell yes, because if I'm not punching things in the face I'm still having a good time nuking the hell out of 'em. Why? I'm doing what I want to do.

If you're leveling BLM "because it's easy mode" or "it gets me invites to things", then that's your prerogative. If you're hating every minute of it because BLM is really not your bag, then it sucks to be you, but it's the choice YOU made at the end of the day.

Also - I don't know what server some of you folks played on, but I was on Ifrit and I never saw a lack of BLMs either before or after ToAU released. Yes, Aht Urhgan did do BLMs raw and hard, but everyone found a way around it via manaburns and doing non-ToAU camps when possible. People found a way regardless. And do keep in mind, SE included that amped magic resistance on ToAU mobs because the player base - mostly non-BLMs - whined about manaburns and how cheap and "easy mode" it was. (Just for the record, I was a pre-ToAU BLM and vastly enjoyed Magic Bursting onto a well-placed Skillchain in xp parties.)

It's funny how many of those same people had absolutely no issue hanging out in Korroloka Tunnel getting SMN-burned though. >_>; I think SMN-burning was far more of a menace to FFXI than BLM manaburning ever was.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Only if you don't form your own groups and strategies.

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BS reasoning is BS. For every one person that may by luck be open-minded you have 30 people who whine and want only the "accepted" strategies. Again, it shouldn't be an uphill battle. Making your own group does not negate the uphill battle part of forming a group.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

I never argued that it should be. My point is this: if you're not the party leader, you have no right to complain. Don't like what the leader is doing? Lead your own group.

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well, no you don't, but all the current main fights have a very low drop rate...
so they need to be done over and over.

currently the best way to do this on every fight is stacking blms.

I'm not going to take a route that's less than efficent and struggle when I need to defeat ifrit 60 times for the drop I want. (I enjoy playing blm, I'm just making a point)

I think the fault is not on the pt leaders, but on SE, who designed fights to be like this.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

well, no you don't, but all the current main fights have a very low drop rate...
so they need to be done over and over.

currently the best way to do this on every fight is stacking blms.

I'm not going to take a route that's less than efficent and struggle when I need to defeat ifrit 60 times for the drop I want. (I enjoy playing blm, I'm just making a point)

I think the fault is not on the pt leaders, but on SE, who designed fights to be like this.

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You can't have it both ways. BLM burn or go another route, it's your choice. The most efficient strategy is just that, whether it's a blm burn or something else. The communities preference is always going to be the easiest route to victory. You can either use the most efficient strategy, or something else, but nobody is frocing you do use the most efficient strategy. If you're the pt leader and you want to use a different strategy, do it. Oust any decenters and do it your own way.

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Originally Posted by Majidah

well, no you don't, but all the current main fights have a very low drop rate...
so they need to be done over and over.

currently the best way to do this on every fight is stacking blms.

I'm not going to take a route that's less than efficent and struggle when I need to defeat ifrit 60 times for the drop I want. (I enjoy playing blm, I'm just making a point)

I think the fault is not on the pt leaders, but on SE, who designed fights to be like this.

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I completely agree. There should be content that favors other party makeups.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

You can't have it both ways. BLM burn or go another route, it's your choice. The most efficient strategy is just that, whether it's a blm burn or something else. The communities preference is always going to be the easiest route to victory. You can either use the most efficient strategy, or something else, but nobody is frocing you do use the most efficient strategy. If you're the pt leader and you want to use a different strategy, do it. Oust any decenters and do it your own way.

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I think the point was more about SE's design leaning toward all content being BLM stack friendly at present, and needing some more flavor. Some content that really has more than one "good" way to get it done. If there's 4 different party makeups that can clear a single piece of content w/ equal difficulty and speed, then it's far more accessible than the stuff we have at present.

Of course people will always be looking for the "best" way, but if any party makeup can clear Ifrit in 7 mins with equal ease, relatively speaking, then BLM stacking becomes unnecessary, and Ifrit becomes accessible to everyone on any job, obviously your not gonna try to do it with 8 PLDs that could be interesting but not fast, but MNK DRG and PLD wouldn't be asked if they have THM or WHM every time out, or at least the sighs and frowning wouldn't be as bad.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

I completely agree. There should be content that favors other party makeups.




I think the point was more about SE's design leaning toward all content being BLM stack friendly at present, and needing some more flavor. Some content that really has more than one "good" way to get it done. If there's 4 different party makeups that can clear a single piece of content w/ equal difficulty and speed, then it's far more accessible than the stuff we have at present.

Of course people will always be looking for the "best" way, but if any party makeup can clear Ifrit in 7 mins with equal ease, relatively speaking, then BLM stacking becomes unnecessary, and Ifrit becomes accessible to everyone on any job, obviously your not gonna try to do it with 8 PLDs that could be interesting but not fast, but MNK DRG and PLD wouldn't be asked if they have THM or WHM every time out, or at least the sighs and frowning wouldn't be as bad.

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yea this is what I was trying to say ^ O: