Endwalker Main Scenario Commentary & Feedback

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Originally Posted by iheartlove42

Anyone have an idea of just how many hours of playtime the MSQ is now?

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It depends on how you approach it (side quests and all), but there's estimates around 70-80 hrs long

In retrospect, its cool how Dancers ShB is just a straight up EW advert, and we didnt even realize till now.

Something that bugs me is that we still have no clear answer as to the origins of the races.

It seems even more probable that they may have originally been creations of the Ancients given that we now know that while they cannot create souls directly, any offspring born by their creations would be gifted with them by the world.

Perhaps only the Hyurs themselves are direct descendants of the Ancients while the others are creations in whom the souls of ancients were eventually reborn...? For that matter, I'm curious how that ancient in one of the quests responds if you're a Hyur because he assumed I was a familiar because of the horns and scales.

So did anyone else notice...

That axolotl apparently follows you through time and space? You see it multiple times in certain quests, and stated it followed you from the ship when you see the Omnicrons

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Something that bugs me is that we still have no clear answer as to the origins of the races.

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Well, if Varis is to be believed, then:

https://i.imgur.com/4abHqBS.jpg

I seem to recall Emet saying something about "malformed creatures" after the sundering as well.

It's mostly the "why" of that possibility I'd want to know about, since a lot of creatures that originated in pre-sundering times appear no different from how they are in the present, so why would the Ancients be affected in such manner?

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

It depends on how you approach it (side quests and all), but there's estimates around 70-80 hrs long

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I'm talking about 1-90 MSQ time.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

It's mostly the "why" of that possibility I'd want to know about, since a lot of creatures that originated in pre-sundering times appear no different from how they are in the present, so why would the Ancients be affected in such manner?

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My thoughts...

Might have to do with how Hydaelyn wanted to dilute our souls aether so we can use dynamis

One thought occurred to me about depression

As powerful as our Ancient selves seem to be as a people they are ill equipped to handle depression. Hermes obviously had it, and people both around him and audience wise are quick to tell the dude to go away.

The ending fight

The battle between you and zenos at the end reminded me of Cloud vs sephiroth at the edge of creation and a bit of azures wrath with the punch out between us and him OH MAN it had me jumping out of my chair.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...023540_697.png TAKE THAT YOU B*****
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...022910_626.png

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

One thought occurred to me about depression

As powerful as our Ancient selves seem to be as a people they are ill equipped to handle depression. Hermes obviously had it, and people both around him and audience wise are quick to tell the dude to go away.

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Not something I entirely agree with, but still a bit of a point of discussion.

I don't think we can really say that Hermes 'obviously had depression', our only real evidence is that he's introspective and thinks about darker stuff than usual (frankly I'm more inclined to give that armchair diagnosis to Emet-Selch). But... honestly, if it were true, yeah, Amaurot would be a god-awful place at understanding that. It's a very conformist society, and for all its supposed wisdom, also a very ignorant one. Completely willing to stick their heads in the sand rather than consider a fault with their society or an alternative viewpoint. They'd suck REAL BAD at mental health issues!

I read someones post about a certain topic on reddit and I know wonder the same:

Is the story with the time travel even possible? In Shadowbringer our original future would have been that we die thanks to Black Rose. The calamity happens, the first is destroyed and 200 years later Graha awakes to change this.

Until the point that the scions and we are taken to the first everything should have happened the same way. Yet how does Hydaelyn and her plan exist if we died in the bad future? We would have no chance to tell Venat everything we knew at that time. Yet the loop was already in existence at that period of time.

IMO it would have made much more sense that because we are now alive and able to travel in the past that we do change their future.

Also wasnt it said that the sound came from within the earth? Yet Meteion was in space.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I read someones post about a certain topic on reddit and I know wonder the same:

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This is... honestly, kind of an overcomplication of things, I think.

I don't think we actually impacted Venat's plan overmuch. Ultimately, she was always going to stand up and become Hydaelyn, shackle Zodiark, cram him in the moon, and make the thing resemble an escape plan. And that's because, even if we weren't there, she still would have met with Emet, Hythlodaeus, and Hermes; she still would have been witness to Meteion's breakdown, learned about dynamis through that lens, and escaped Ktitsis with her memories intact and something resembling a plan. We might've helped her refine it a bit, but ultimately nothing Venat does because of our interference is out of character for her normally. It probably just would've taken her longer to get there.

Or alternatively: like in Alexander's story, it's a time loop that contains another time loop. G'raha was always going to survive the Calamity and then travel back to save the First, because an even bigger time loop requires this to have already happened. The Elpis time loop essentially creates the First time loop.

I mean, it's one of those two or it's 'we're not supposed to ask that many questions about time travel in this game, so don't worry about it'.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

I read someones post about a certain topic on reddit and I know wonder the same:

Is the story with the time travel even possible? In Shadowbringer our original future would have been that we die thanks to Black Rose. The calamity happens, the first is destroyed and 200 years later Graha awakes to change this.

Until the point that the scions and we are taken to the first everything should have happened the same way. Yet how does Hydaelyn and her plan exist if we died in the bad future? We would have no chance to tell Venat everything we knew at that time. Yet the loop was already in existence at that period of time.

IMO it would have made much more sense that because we are now alive and able to travel in the past that we do change their future.

Also wasnt it said that the sound came from within the earth? Yet Meteion was in space.

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Ill try to answer this the best I can:

This is the basic premise of how time travel would work, according to Albert Einstein. Simply put, even if it were possible to travel back in time, you would not be able to change any events in the past, because your future self would have already caused them to happen in the way that they did. No matter your intentions, everything that you did would only fulfill the past. The only thing that would change is your perception of the events.
Meanwhile Graha Tia's crew didnt simply traveled to the past but knowing how time travel works they managed to open a conection to a paralel world where a Graha Tia came from another future. Thats the reason why the Bad Future will never get to pass due to Graha Tias's interference in our world even if in future Graha Tia's world happened and WILL happen no matter what even if they traveled to their past, thats why old Cid and Nero mention that even if their successors manage to complete their project, they are doomed anyways because nothing will change and will only manage to save "another" world.

On one we just travel to the past, on the other Graha traveled to a paralel universe, but missed the point they wanted to reach in the time axis arriving a century too early

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Not something I entirely agree with, but still a bit of a point of discussion.

I don't think we can really say that Hermes 'obviously had depression', our only real evidence is that he's introspective and thinks about darker stuff than usual (frankly I'm more inclined to give that armchair diagnosis to Emet-Selch). But... honestly, if it were true, yeah, Amaurot would be a god-awful place at understanding that. It's a very conformist society, and for all its supposed wisdom, also a very ignorant one. Completely willing to stick their heads in the sand rather than consider a fault with their society or an alternative viewpoint. They'd suck REAL BAD at mental health issues!

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About depression

Thinking about "darker stuff than usual" is not depression itself. It's how you cope as well. There is also a difference between grieving which comes in stages that you may wish to join others in death due to loss. It's just part of the grief process, however Hermes/Fandaniel/Amon has terrible coping mechanisms. Much of what could have been resolved in talking more to people about possible loss and seeking out company with peers - was more alienation..and seemed moreso in his first life. His life as Amon also had that self destructive behavior as well

Spoiler stuff below. About everything I guess

I didn't dig the time travel stuff at all. I thought everything that happened in Shadowbringers had already established that going back in time can't be used to affect the present. I guess Alexander shows that "closed loop" time travel works, but I still feel as though it creates a lot of plot inconsistencies. What other current events are a result of time travel plots yet to come? Did Hydaelyn know everything all along and just decide not to tell us? Or was it that "timeline convergence" that apparently only completed when we met face to face? Convenient. It just seems like lazy writing; a way for us to quickly learn Meteion's location by having Hydaelyn suddenly remember by a quirk of fate.

There's a few other criticisms I have with the MSQ with regards to writing (mostly with regards to pacing and several parts which felt contrived), but from a lore and internal consistency perspective there's a few other things that have been bothering me.

• It felt SO DUMB that the Thavnairians worked so hard and devoted so much of their expertise and resources to successfully creating an anti-tempering talisman, and then we learn a short time later that the Garleans created one by accident, without even realizing. They couldn't have come up with a better reason for untempered Garleans to be in Garlemald?
  
• When you arrive in Mare Lamentorum the Watcher says he has managed to repair one of the 5 destroyed brands, meaning there should be two still functioning. Yet when Zenos arrives he destroys a single brand which breaks the seal on Zodiark. What happened to the repaired one?
  
• Venat says her magic that she senses on us is a "traveler's ward" that prevents our aether from being corrupted (i.e. tempering), but it's the Echo that prevents tempering, not the Blessing of Light. It's already been long established that the Echo is not Hydaelyn's thing. I guess it's possible that the Blessing of Light also prevents tempering, but since the Echo seems to be somewhat of a prerequisite, it's kind of redudant, is it not? The point of the Blessing of Light seems to be protection against Darkness and the ability to absorb and wield Light to enhance one's own abilities.
  
• The reveal that the Ascians "programmed" tempering into modern-day summoning rituals as a means of perpetuating them, and that "original" summoning (creation magic) has no such downside. So then what was all that stuff Emet spouted about the Convocation being tempered by Zodiark? With the reveal also that Venat is not simply Hydaelyn's "heart" but one and the same being, for this to make sense it would have to mean that either Elidibus voluntarily tempered his brethren, or the Convocation somehow imbued Zodiark with the uncontrollable ability to temper, or that Emet-Selch was simply lying about being tempered all along.

I'm not looking for some theory that explains this stuff, because anyone can fill in holes with their imagination. These are things which I think the story should have addressed or handled differently but didn't, at least as far as I could tell. Some of them feel like actual mistakes.

I'm also left with the question of what exactly IS the Echo in the end? I know it's some kind of awakening of a sundered soul, but why does it prevent tempering, why does it allow communion with Hydaelyn, understanding of all languages and persistence of the soul after death? Is the implication that these are simply all traits that the ancients had, and the Echo grants them to modern day mortals? But then, the interaction with Meteion also implies that the ability to understand any language is in fact caused by dynamis and she can do it with us because our lower concentration of aether allows us to sense emotions/intent via dynamis. Shouldn't that mean that all present-day mortals are capable of this? Why is it only people with the Echo like us and Krile then?

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Also wasnt it said that the sound came from within the earth? Yet Meteion was in space.

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Oh, the sights we shall see, the sights we shall see...

Perhaps there is another reason why we were sent back to that very specific point in time? To serve as someone's guiding star?

A thought about the final trial

Do you think the WoL became a Primal at the end? The Scions were praying and sending their hopes, with their poses even being deliberate callbacks to the cinematic where Louisoix became Phoenix

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

A thought about the final trial

Do you think the WoL became a Primal at the end? The Scions were praying and sending their hopes, with their poses even being deliberate callbacks to the cinematic where Louisoix became Phoenix

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I don't think so.

I think if anything their prayers just activated via dynamus to shield you. Primals are made with aether afterall, considering where everyone was I think their hope for the WOL's safety activating dynamus makes more sense than the WOL becoming a primal.

Anyone else really pleased with how they inclused the beastmen and the Primals in Endwalker? That just left a warm and fuzzy feeling. I love that they threw that redemption out there, any for anyone who has completed the Melee DPS role quest, how certian characters have changed since early game. It really felt good, as I never liked how Eorzea treated the Beastmen.

I've been mulling over my thoughts because my initial reaction to EW was not positive. I needed to sift through the negativity and disappointment to write something coherent. :P This turned out to be a lot longer than I thought, so I'll have to split it up into multiple replies. Assume full MSQ spoilers. 1/3

Inconsistencies:

I lost track of how many times I was given pause because the narrative in EW didn't match what had been presented in previous content. I hesitate to say "retcon" because I don't want to have to go through and make a bullet list of them for debate, but that was my first thought every time. I know it was the same writer, but it felt like either the story had been handed off to someone else for a different interpretation or they discarded the path they were charting in ShB which led to lore rewrites and dropped plot points.

Zodiark:

Learning that Zodiark in the 'Hydaelyn & Zodiark' saga was little more than Gundam suit was disappointing. A major 'character' who had been name dropped since ARR, who was either the greatest threat to life or the savior of it, had no presence at all. The only argument I've seen against this is that Elidibus was Zodiark, but I didn't find that satisfactory since we'd already dealt with him in ShB. I also took issue with his model. It may have looked cool, but such a monstrous looking being didn't fit thematically with what we know of the Ancients and why he was summoned.

Fandaniel:

Fandaniel is the worst antagonist of the series for me bar none, which made having to face him repeatedly all the more irritating. I like Zenos more than Fandaniel and I don't like Zenos. When the creator of the series' best antagonist, Emet-Selch, tells me he's her favorite character I'm expecting something marvelous. Instead, as someone else put it, we got "depressed Kefka" (and his tiresome attachment to Amon).

Hermes was not any more likeable either. It was obvious from the start he was an "aberration", as he put it, seemingly the only dissatisfied Ancient in their society (in large part because he was in the wrong profession). I couldn't relate or sympathize with him and, while that's not necessary for an antagonist, it is the surest way I lose interest in them. He came across as hypocritical and unhinged, which I found annoying instead of entertaining.

Assume full MSQ spoilers. 2/3

Hydaelyn:

Venat was an incredibly divisive character for me. They made her likeable in Elpis only to ruin it at the end. We essentially made her omniscient and for her to not do anything differently was unthinkable to me especially as none of her choices up to that point had resulted in saving the star. I firmly believe Elpis should have branched into an alternate timeline. Not talking to Emet and Hythlodaeus was nonsensical, especially as a handful of quests earlier she was teaching us how to view memories of the past. I found all of her excuses flawed and had to resign myself to the writer(s) wanting a closed time loop so badly that I would have to suffer through the illogic of it all.

I did not care for the 'montage' scene after the end of Elpis either. It confused too many people because what was depicted didn't match with events as detailed in ShB. The audacity of Venat, giving that sanctimonious speech while acting as judge, jury, and executioner to a civilization she doomed with her secrecy. Her character ended up not being much different than Hermes. I was not moved by her 'suffering' either, which was her choice knowing exactly how it would play out unlike everyone else who suffered from her choices in ignorance.

The problem with this is Venat/Hydaelyn is written unquestionably as a "good" character to the extent of being the loving motherly figure to all. There's no arguing that she was in the wrong because - and this is another of my gripes - all shades of grey were stripped from EW. Your WoL, the Scions, the other non-Ancient NPCs, all view her as benevolent and just. (I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised by this as the Scions have always been zealous regarding her.) The fact that she does have two moments of self-awareness also trick you into believing she's a better person than she is.

Her reasons for sundering also change from Elpis to the Mothercrystal. First it's because she believes the Ancients incapable of the change she deems necessary and then it's because they were too dense in aether to deal with dynamis, something she never told anyone they needed to figure out how to deal with in the first place. Here's an idea: how about you consult with your experts, apprehend and interrogate Hermes, and inform the public to allow them the opportunity to adapt instead of letting the Final Days descend with no one having any idea why or how to adjust. Venat wasn't smarter than anyone else, she simply had access to information they didn't and because of that we'll never know if there could've been an alternate path for them. Knowledge is power and she refused to share it.

Assume full MSQ spoilers. 3/3

Best zone in the game and you know which one I'm talking about without my saying it, don't you?

Going back to Elpis, it was both the best and one of the most heartbreaking parts of EW for me. Regardless of what Elidibus said, I felt the possibility of saving the Ancient world was on the table especially following an expansion that introduced alternate timelines in order to save the WoL's life and the First from being rejoined. Instead, after a lovely MSQ experience with my favorite characters, it's ripped away with a ludicrous mind wiping plot device. I was angry, devastated. It was one of the only two times in the game I not only sat and cried, but genuinely didn't feel like playing anymore. Needless to say, the second time was before the last dungeon. The Ancients could've had at least one timeline in which they weren't destroyed and I'd argue that morally that was the only correct choice (which is why it needed to be an alternate timeline since it obviously wouldn't work if the WoL ceased to exist). Elpis carried this expansion hard, which makes it all the more egregious that it ended in tragedy that could've been avoidable.

Scions:

Contrast this with the Scion's plot armor, likely why I have to keep watching my Ancient friends die because the writers/devs won't touch the protagonists. The reason they keep having to bring up losses of characters introduced in ARR is because no major character on the side of the protagonists has died since HW. Having our group discuss overcoming despair when comparatively they've lost the least of any of the peoples we help or fight against rang hollow. The only exceptions are G'raha and Estinien. It's not that I wanted Scions to die (though I'd easily trade over half of them for Emet and Hythlodaeus), but they always win and without having to incur much in the way of costs. Maybe this contributes to why I feel like the Ancients have a more compelling story and characters. As a comment on Reddit said, "I adore their story more than our story."

I felt bludgeoned by the theme and I have to wonder how much of that was pushed due to covid.

Unanswered questions:

Lastly, the sheer amount of unanswered questions, particularly from ShB. When/why did Azem leave the Convocation? Why did Azem not join Venat if she was their mentor? What was Azem's fate (aside from the obvious sundering)? How did the unsundered escape being sundered? What did Emet succeed in doing to Zenos? Why was Zenos dreaming about Amaurot? These are just off the top of my head.

TL;DR: EW is middle of the pack for me, I thought ShB and HW were better.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

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To both you and the person above you.

Yes 1000%. You both made such amazing points and all of the problems you both addressed are reasons i just…can’t take this expansion or really this game seriously anymore. The constant plot armor of the protags is ridiculous and the whole venat thing was just…bad writing plain and simple, especially with them forcing the benevolence thing. It’s so upsetting too because the thavnair and garlemald plots are so amazing but once you get to the moon the story just takes a major nose dive, letting up a little bit with the second thavnair arc but then back to nose diving. It’s so sad.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

I don't think so.

I think if anything their prayers just activated via dynamus to shield you. Primals are made with aether afterall, considering where everyone was I think their hope for the WOL's safety activating dynamus makes more sense than the WOL becoming a primal.

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This is a very concise and excellent observation.

There are some snippets here and there across the patch pointing for this course of direction in the near future.

As per example:

In context, the quest asks you to retrieve a crystal lantern for a gleaner. It has become a ritual to pray with it, while in the hopes of safe travels:

"Gleaner's Wish" quest dialogue
https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/G..._Wish#Dialogue

"Lanterns light the way through the darkness─a tool which can mean the difference between life and death. They are synonymous with safe passage, and as such, it has become custom in recent days to imbue the crystals inside with the prayers of a more seasoned traveler."

And the scientist follows:

https://i.postimg.cc/kgn6rsLS/akasa1.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/P52LdZkR/akasa2.jpg

A manner to already introduce and infer sporadically the basis of this concept - that will likely be developed most centrally further ahead in the future of the game - and how the WoL is apparently a powerhouse of it.

My thoughts on the story? Rather than go bit by bit, I'm going to hit it with my overall thoughts. This may be the best written the game has ever been. I've laughed, cried, smiled, and felt more emotion this entire expansion than I've ever felt in the game. I have not seen many things, if any, in the expansion that were nonsensical or not well foreshadowed ahead of time. So much more lore given to us here than we've ever had before. Ishikawa and the whole writing team outdid themselves this time, and I daresay it may be hard for the game to ever hit this high note again in storytelling.

I’ve read through the thread and wonder if some of us have been playing the same game this whole time.

There was no way after 11 years of the game that they were going to have a twist where Hydaelyn is malevolent. That would cheapen a lot of the game and a lot of what we’ve done for a weak payoff. It was apparent things were going to end this way when SE responded in an interview to say that we only had one side of the story.

The plot armor for the Scions is annoying but expected, since they’ve had plot armor since the beginning and Y’shtola herself has been in mortal peril at least 5 times off the top of my head (tsunami in 1.0, Flow in ARR, stabbed in SB, Flow 2 in ShB, and Meteion’d in EW). I didn’t expect any prior established characters to die who were in the Trust system or in existing branching quest lines.

The game has always been fairly saccharine with a message about love and friendship. Even the edgy DRK turns out to be a knight who uses the power of love. There are dark moments for sure, but none of expansions end on one, least of all the whole game’s storyline.

So overall I’m confused why the outcome comes to a surprise to some. Were people seriously expecting an end where the Ascians were right all along and half of the party is dead?

Most of my thoughts on the expansion have already been mentioned here by others. The writing seems to have been inconsistent compared to ShB, with wild changes to our understanding of existing lore with no explanation. Other times, it felt like the writers were casually going through a list of bullet points they have for unfinished plot threads and just throwing the solutions at us out of nowhere and then moving on quickly by the end.

Then specifically with the ending:

I felt like the Scions were in no danger at all because they beat us over the head with the foreshadowing for Azem’s Crystal and the teleporter as if to keep making triply sure we wouldn’t forget about those plot devices.

Overall I would rate it below ShB, which felt consistent and focused throughout and made me cry at the end. None of which EW did. I would rank it above or equal to HW, and definitely above ARR and SB, the saving grace being:

Impromptu “road trip” with my friends from 12,000 years ago being one of my highlights for the game as a whole, and the fact that I felt like while inconsistent and sometimes lost, the game at least didn’t bungle the end.

How can I put my thoughts on it... How dare Ishikawa and Yoshi P do that to me... I've NEVER fully cried during an expansion. Teared up a bit maybe, but flat out cried... not once, not twice, but FOUR (or five) TIMES!? Ye, gods was that an emotional roller coaster ride. I'm just glad my father was asleep or at work during most of this or he'd be looking at me all weird for the crying. shhhhiiii.....

I think i'm going to go into a corner and cry again

Edit: Before I do that (cause adulting) just one question in the last Area by the time we start going to the final boss, did anyone else get the 80's movie music vibe like I did with the zone music? (Can't wait to buy the album btw).

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I’ve read through the thread and wonder if some of us have been playing the same game this whole time.

There was no way after 11 years of the game that they were going to have a twist where Hydaelyn is malevolent. That would cheapen a lot of the game and a lot of what we’ve done for a weak payoff. It was apparent things were going to end this way when SE responded in an interview to say that we only had one side of the story.

The plot armor for the Scions is annoying but expected, since they’ve had plot armor since the beginning and Y’shtola herself has been in mortal peril at least 5 times off the top of my head (tsunami in 1.0, Flow in ARR, stabbed in SB, Flow 2 in ShB, and Meteion’d in EW). I didn’t expect any prior established characters to die who were in the Trust system or in existing branching quest lines.

The game has always been fairly saccharine with a message about love and friendship. Even the edgy DRK turns out to be a knight who uses the power of love. There are dark moments for sure, but none of expansions end on one, least of all the whole game’s storyline.

So overall I’m confused why the outcome comes to a surprise to some. Were people seriously expecting an end where the Ascians were right all along and half of the party is dead?

Most of my thoughts on the expansion have already been mentioned here by others. The writing seems to have been inconsistent compared to ShB, with wild changes to our understanding of existing lore with no explanation. Other times, it felt like the writers were casually going through a list of bullet points they have for unfinished plot threads and just throwing the solutions at us out of nowhere and then moving on quickly by the end.

Then specifically with the ending:

I felt like the Scions were in no danger at all because they beat us over the head with the foreshadowing for Azem’s Crystal and the teleporter as if to keep making triply sure we wouldn’t forget about those plot devices.

Overall I would rate it below ShB, which felt consistent and focused throughout and made me cry at the end. None of which EW did. I would rank it above or equal to HW, and definitely above ARR and SB, the saving grace being:

Impromptu “road trip” with my friends from 12,000 years ago being one of my highlights for the game as a whole, and the fact that I felt like while inconsistent and sometimes lost, the game at least didn’t bungle the end.

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I completely agree, the story even if still great feels at times disjointed and a step down from ShB. While ShB keep the quality high during the entire expansion here you see lows and ups making certain points awesome and others a real slog.

Its still a worthy finale but could be done better considering how good was ShB

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Edit: Before I do that (cause adulting) just one question in the last Area by the time we start going to the final boss, did anyone else get the 80's movie music vibe like I did with the zone music? (Can't wait to buy the album btw).

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Yeah, final zone goes through three different themes based on when in the MSQ you're at.

The only disappointing thing is that once you're done, it's just always playing Footfalls. I like Footfalls, but I preferred the second theme for traveling around.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Yeah, final zone goes through three different themes based on when in the MSQ you're at.

The only disappointing thing is that once you're done, it's just always playing Footfalls. I like Footfalls, but I preferred the second theme for traveling around.

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O.o when I go back there it's still playing Close in the Distance .... even after opening a dungeon... if i've confused anyone I mean the final zone area

Ultima Thule

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I’ve read through the thread and wonder if some of us have been playing the same game this whole time.

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Regarding that

Not making Hydaelyn evil is one thing the writers completely deserve commendation for. Over the years I've had to deal with so many people who were so convinced that twist was coming that it seemed like they were actually hoping for that most shallow and meaningless of subversions. "The good guy was the bad guy all along". It would have undermined the story so badly if it truly ended up being that simple. Imagine how awful the story would have ended up being if it was really just, the Ascians were right all along, Zodiark is a good guy and Hydaelyn has been deceiving you the whole time. Imagine if that's what we got instead of Shadowbringers.

In the end Hydaelyn is neither good nor evil, which is perfect. How you see her ends up coming down to whether you agree with her reasoning. Endwalker is far from the perfect ending in many respects but on that point at least I'm glad it played out the way it did

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

It did feel a bit odd to me.

Like, in all those planets, not ONE of them was in a good spot? Not one earlier along than Ethairis that hadn't run into an existential crisis yet? Not one that was finding a way to cope with it? Instead it's just everything sucks everywhere? You'd think she'd find SOME worlds in a good spot along Ethairis' level or even less developed. It's like her report was generated by an AI seeded with a bunch of cautionary tales.

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I believe I have the answer to that;

It's speculated by Urianger that if the world she was visiting didn't have a problem already, she might have accidentally caused one because of her nature and the sorrow her sisters felt over what they found, making a feedback loop. Good job Hermes

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Originally Posted by Rannie

O.o when I go back there it's still playing Close in the Distance .... even after opening a dungeon... if i've confused anyone I mean the final zone area

Ultima Thule

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Oh, I thought that was Footfalls. Yeah, it only plays that after completing the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I’ve read through the thread and wonder if some of us have been playing the same game this whole time.

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I started playing the game in around April or May and have felt this way about the entire lore forum. I thought it was just me not having the decade-long experience and familiarity. Or I am crazy, which is usually the correct answer.

In other places online, there are specific groups that tend to have more to talk about than "this zone was very slow, retcon, aether blade, etc." A lot of it is fanfic community and people who write.

Like, if you thought Labyrinthos was slow then maybe you weren't paying attention to the quests.

The quest where we have to find 8 distraught high-security-clearance scientists to comfort with loporrits, which are basically Venat's comfort toys for people in senior living facilities... I know the medium limits that quest a lot, but I felt like they were making a statement about what it means to live. People need companionship and someone to say, "Hey, are you okay?" And more often than in instances where they need CPR! Everyday anxieties and insecurities about whether we did everything we could. Existential dread that can come with being a scientist in a field faced with the end of civilization and asking you to fix an impossible problem (climate scientists, anyone who deals in environmental engineering, etc.... basically anyone in earth sciences, health, biology).

The things that give people the "boost" to make all this possible in FFXIV are magical in some kind of way -- whether it is moogles, flying pigs, dragons, loporrits and their technology...but in life we have to decide for ourselves what that magic spark is. The magic can even make a difference in these everyday situations that don't seem critical (the quest I mentioned was part of an instanced zone and the music that plays is like "I'm on a mission to save the world" music).

With Endwalker specifically, the story had to cover so much ground that they were stuck with uniting the bits thematically. And the themes of this game are very deep, personal, and meaningful themes.

What does it mean to live? What does it take to survive? Why do we need to fight? Is there a reason/answer? The collapse of civilizations. Despair.

I think geeking out about lore of stories naturally tries to avoid these ideas to get down to some kind of answer, and that Endwalker's STORY is saying, "You need to find your own answer within." This naturally feels at odds with the "facts" and how they change over the course of how the story is told (I admit, some of the facts still bother me--I am at the last trial).

However, I think there is a balance we can achieve here between this type of take and the lore details (which is just as, if not more important--don't get me wrong!!). There is no "story" forum. I have checked.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I felt bludgeoned by the theme and I have to wonder how much of that was pushed due to covid.

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In the speculation thread I was wondering if the story would change to reflect the pandemic. I thought that they would bring back some of the characters we thought were "dead-dead" to give them a proper sendoff and also give us time with main characters (the monologues and heart-to-hearts).

I wonder if they toned down the "end of the world" storyline. Probably also due to quarterly earnings and the second wind FFXIV has had lately! It felt like from Zone 5 onward that the pandemic and second wind changed things. And I think it may have added to the harsh reality of Zone 3. The characters were all so believable.

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Originally Posted by vormela

In the speculation thread I was wondering if the story would change to reflect the pandemic. I thought that they would bring back some of the characters we thought were "dead-dead" to give them a proper sendoff and also give us time with main characters (the monologues and heart-to-hearts).

I wonder if they toned down the "end of the world" storyline. Probably also due to quarterly earnings and the second wind FFXIV has had lately! It felt like from Zone 5 onward that the pandemic and second wind changed things. And I think it may have added to the harsh reality of Zone 3. The characters were all so believable.

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(I know this has probably nothing to do with the pandemic but

the fact that the inhabitants of the last zone are called Omicron (I know the variant is too new to have affected EW), that one of the mobs is called Delta (yes, I know, there's also alpha, beta and chi) and that one of the enemies literally looks like the stereotypical depiction of the covid virus felt kinda surreal. xD )

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

I’ve read through the thread and wonder if some of us have been playing the same game this whole time.

There was no way after 11 years of the game that they were going to have a twist where Hydaelyn is malevolent. That would cheapen a lot of the game and a lot of what we’ve done for a weak payoff. It was apparent things were going to end this way when SE responded in an interview to say that we only had one side of the story.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

Regarding that

Not making Hydaelyn evil is one thing the writers completely deserve commendation for. Over the years I've had to deal with so many people who were so convinced that twist was coming that it seemed like they were actually hoping for that most shallow and meaningless of subversions. "The good guy was the bad guy all along". It would have undermined the story so badly if it truly ended up being that simple. Imagine how awful the story would have ended up being if it was really just, the Ascians were right all along, Zodiark is a good guy and Hydaelyn has been deceiving you the whole time. Imagine if that's what we got instead of Shadowbringers.

In the end Hydaelyn is neither good nor evil, which is perfect. How you see her ends up coming down to whether you agree with her reasoning. Endwalker is far from the perfect ending in many respects but on that point at least I'm glad it played out the way it did

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I'm also very glad that

Hydaelin didn't turn out to be the evil manipulater after all.

But I think the reason why many players felt that the story could take that turn might have been because Shadowbringers did shift the tone quite a lot.
For the first time we had a story with "more shades of grey", if you will. It also felt a lot darker to me.
Whereas ARR and Stormblood felt kind of colourful, over-idealistic and ultimately more like "clichéed optimistic fantasy" (not saying this is a bad thing - just trying to put it into words) and Heavensward was sad, more serious but not, for the lack of a better word, "bizarre", Shadowbringers - in a good sense - felt a lot darker and gritter, with some storytelling elements almost borrowing from horror genres (e.g., when I saw Tesleen's tranformation I was positively shocked because that kind of depiction felt quite unprecedented in FF14).
In ARR, HW and SB an evil Hydaelin would not have made sense thematically. But within Shadowbringers it suddenly felt like it actually might. And because people assumed they would continue to tell the story as they did in ShB they probably expected the same kind of "shades of grey" and perhaps also the same kind of darkness/grittiness in EW. (I would even argue we did get the latter. The HR Giga inspired Telophoroi towers that made you think a xenomorph is waiting behind the next corner, some of Meteion's "creepy" scenes or people turning into monsters (and stomping their own children) really embodied that spirit.)

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Assume full MSQ spoilers. 2/3

Hydaelyn:

Venat was an incredibly divisive character for me. They made her likeable in Elpis only to ruin it at the end. We essentially made her omniscient and for her to not do anything differently was unthinkable to me especially as none of her choices up to that point had resulted in saving the star. I firmly believe Elpis should have branched into an alternate timeline. Not talking to Emet and Hythlodaeus was nonsensical, especially as a handful of quests earlier she was teaching us how to view memories of the past. I found all of her excuses flawed and had to resign myself to the writer(s) wanting a closed time loop so badly that I would have to suffer through the illogic of it all.

I did not care for the 'montage' scene after the end of Elpis either. It confused too many people because what was depicted didn't match with events as detailed in ShB. The audacity of Venat, giving that sanctimonious speech while acting as judge, jury, and executioner to a civilization she doomed with her secrecy. Her character ended up not being much different than Hermes. I was not moved by her 'suffering' either, which was her choice knowing exactly how it would play out unlike everyone else who suffered from her choices in ignorance.

The problem with this is Venat/Hydaelyn is written unquestionably as a "good" character to the extent of being the loving motherly figure to all. There's no arguing that she was in the wrong because - and this is another of my gripes - all shades of grey were stripped from EW. Your WoL, the Scions, the other non-Ancient NPCs, all view her as benevolent and just. (I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised by this as the Scions have always been zealous regarding her.) The fact that she does have two moments of self-awareness also trick you into believing she's a better person than she is.

Her reasons for sundering also change from Elpis to the Mothercrystal. First it's because she believes the Ancients incapable of the change she deems necessary and then it's because they were too dense in aether to deal with dynamis, something she never told anyone they needed to figure out how to deal with in the first place. Here's an idea: how about you consult with your experts, apprehend and interrogate Hermes, and inform the public to allow them the opportunity to adapt instead of letting the Final Days descend with no one having any idea why or how to adjust. Venat wasn't smarter than anyone else, she simply had access to information they didn't and because of that we'll never know if there could've been an alternate path for them. Knowledge is power and she refused to share it.

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I really agree with this analysis. Still, I do love

Venat. I know it's very easy and can be all too convenient to say "it was out of character" when a character you like does something you disagree with.

But in this case I'm really inclined to do so. The lack of logic behind her actions felt too inconsistent with her characterisation considering that people described her as outstandingly intelligent and very proactive. She is not perfect but Hydaelin's plan seemed like the opposite of these defining traits to me...

I was under the impression that all of her bad attempts at excuses and justifications were really just the writers desperately trying to excuse the plot through her mouth.


It seems to me that they really wanted to include the time travel element, maybe amongst others as a way to bring beloved characters like Emet-Selch (and the until then faceless Hythlodaeus) back and give us a glimpse at the Ascians' world that we can experience first hand, that is not just a tale or a flashback.

But at the same time they also knew that they didn't have the room or time in the remaining story anymore to incorporate the time travel in a way that really makes sense.
To account for all the effects that should logically have followed. It's easier to just say "btw everything else stays the same after you leave", so you don't have to spend time on explaining to the player all the things that have changed in the meantime compared to the original time line.

(I am aware that in the end the world has to be sundered either way because otherwise there is no Aldenard that we could return to and no WoL that could do the returning in the first place. But maybe they could have found a reason why the sundering still had to happen that was better than just "nothing will change" and "Only Venat can know because Hermes might pull a stunt if literally any other person than Venat learns about it".
How about telling just the other 13 members of the convocation and face Hermes together? Or at least tell Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus. Emet is a master-planner and Hythlo seems quite smart himself. Maybe the brainpower of three intelligent Ascians would have led to a better plan than only Venat's. Or maybe Hermes learning the truth and sabotaging Venat's and the others' efforts to change the future would be a good reason why the sundering ultimately still happens.
It would still be better than the excuses we were served.)

So in the end, I really agree with others here, I think the alternative branch as we had it in ShB would have made a lot more sense. I just cannot fathom why Venat would act as @Rulakir describes. Now that she knows what's happening she is more or less sentencing them to death because she is withholding knowledge, esp. from Emet and Hythlodaeus, that might have changed things. The story insisting that despite the time travel nothing can change and that the events have to play out like before make little sense to me.

But a loop is a lot easier to write and to justify if you bring up time travel in the second to last zone.

I loved Elpis - it was my favourite part of EW next to the final zone - and I would not want for it to be removed from the story under any circumstances. But I think they used it too late in the story for its revelations to be properly integrated into the rest of it.

Personally, my theory about why people thought the story would take that turn actually starts outside of the game rather than inside of it.

JRPGs are branded with that 'team up with your friends and kill God' cliche for a reason; it really does happen A LOT. I assume it's because in a game with a grand setting that nonetheless primarily provides violence as a means of interaction, people started wanting to enact violence against the biggest thing in the setting, which tended to be 'the analog for God'. Then eventually developers started indulging that, and things snowballed.

I don't think, deep down, people actually wanted to fight Hydaelyn because they thought she was evil; I think people expected to fight her, because at this point in the genre that's just the done thing, and were looking for a justification. Then Shadowbringers rolls around with a theme of 'light is not always good and sometimes has to be fought', and a pretty genocidal sadboy to say bad things about her, and bam, suddenly the justification has crystallized: that we'll fight Hydaelyn because she's evil. The fact we'll fight her was never really the part in question, it was just a matter of finding the path they had to backtrack down to explain why.

I know I expected we'd throw down with Hydaelyn, I just never bought into the 'because she's bad' explanation, and landed on something closer to what actually happened, that we'd have to fight her as part of some kind of rueful challenge that we'd ultimately feel sad about.