Now to be fair, class design is the only thing modern WoW does very very well in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by IruruCece
If FFXIV straight up copied their tank/healer design philosophy, it would be 3x the better game for it for example.
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01-22-2022, 02:13 AMOtakuSempai
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01-22-2022, 03:18 AMFerrinusFire and Paradox grant three more charges of Fire IV Ready, but watch out! Casting Blizzard 3 removes all stacks!Quote:
Originally Posted by VentVanitas
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01-22-2022, 03:58 AMThorneDynastyThis is just a design document from an alternate reality where BLM is one of the jobs the devs don't play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daralii
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01-22-2022, 04:50 AMIruruCeceBut I don't want to play WoW, which is why I've been playing FFXIV.Quote:
Originally Posted by OtakuSempai
Like there are a lot of flaws with this game right now, but they aren't so great that they can't be fixed without dramatically changing everything to be even more like some other game. We've got people with severe WoWbrain going on about how healers should "only heal" on the forums right now, and the last thing I'd want to see is the FFXIV devs cater to idiots like that. If that's the supposedly brilliant healer design coming out of WoW today, I can't imagine the nightmare that would be their tank design philosophy. -
01-22-2022, 07:18 AMOtakuSempaiOkay, and? Nowhere did I say FFXIV should emulate wow entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by IruruCece
You assume a lot don't you? You are aware the original design of this game was essentially a copy-paste of an earlier version of WoW?Quote:
Originally Posted by IruruCece
Idiots suggesting healers should only heal have been around for as long there have been RPGs, it has nothing to do with WoWbrain or WoW in general. This shows you have no idea how that game is actually played, which is not surprising considering how much of a bubble most of this community lives in.
Tank/Healer design in this game is atrociously bad, and frankly if they copied literally any other mmo out right now specifically in regards to that (and nothing else) it would be a much better game. I merely wanted to point out that those things are done really well in WoW and wanted to give credit where credit was due. -
01-23-2022, 07:30 AMAnaseSkyriderIt was clear to me before I even posted my contribution that you people are incapable of critical reading, but what's even more surprising is how you people conjure words that straight up were not *anywhere* in anything I said, at all, in any way, shape, or form, to any level of examination or magnification.Quote:
Originally Posted by IruruCece
Bravo.
[EDIT: Technically you didn't reply to me, but this *was* just below another post that accused me of trolling. If this was intended to not include me, then I retract my snark. Otherwise, it remains.]
Stop defending these stupid timers. BLM isn't "rewarded" for its high-skill play, it's balanced around correctly performing its rotation alongside all the other classes correctly performing their rotations. There is just "punishment" for failing a rotation that is arbitrarily more difficult to execute in play. Actually pressing the buttons is not hard in the slightest, it's introducing encounter mechanics to the rotation that is the problem since it is uniquely designed to interact worse with said mechanics. -
01-23-2022, 08:02 AMKabooaNo.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnaseSkyrider
There is zero reason to monumentally change the job, alter the actions, to mimic what we already have when the timers do it for us and allow us lateral decision making.
This is literally a case of "go play any other job" and have fun over there. We're doing just fine here. -
01-23-2022, 08:15 AMIruruCeceNo, I wasn't addressing you personally, but I will now. Feel free to "retract" your reactionary dumbass "apology", I'll keep your clownshoes BS quoted for posterity.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnaseSkyrider
Your ideas are bad, and have always been bad. Play a different job if BLM isn't for you anymore, the timers are fine and players with considerably more experience and skill than you or I have put in far more effort to explain why they work in the context of the game as it actually exists, and certainly more effort than your posts whining about how it feels "punishing to make *gasp* a mistake *abloo abloooooo*."
This game has so many options that cater to your interests. Play them instead. Or cancel your sub and improve the game and the forums in one shot. -
01-23-2022, 09:01 AMAnaseSkyriderStrange you say that, because nowhere in there was an apology. Probably because I had nothing to actually apologize for.Quote:
Originally Posted by IruruCece
And yet this cannot be demonstrated, because as has ALREADY been laid out in detail by others, there are other methods of achieving the same fun rotation with many if not all of the same properties it already has *while also* removing the unnecessary stance timers. From beginning to end, every argument in defense of them has already been debunked. Arguments like "It would become a static rotation! It's intended to be fluid!", when it already is largely static and is clearly not intended to be fluid because every time BLMs come out with something new, the devs patch it out. The timer *clearly* exists to structure the rotation in the same way melee combos structure the rotation, except it's way easier to break and adds punishment for no reward. Make a better structure.Quote:
Your ideas are bad, and have always been bad. [...] the timers are fine and players with considerably more experience and skill than you or I have put in far more effort to explain why they work
I know it's hard to accurately represent someone's position when honesty isn't your goal, but my complaints *indisputably* are not with the principle of being punished for making mistakes; it's about degrees. You probably wouldn't appreciate literally having 20s Silence placed on you if your rotation was even slightly messed up, because it would be excessively punishing, right? It took until EW for dropping Enochian to stop being a pseudo-silence on your main rotation.Quote:
whining about how it feels "punishing to make *gasp* a mistake *abloo abloooooo*."
My point from post#1 is that you can still have the same rotation that exists at various breakpoints in the leveling process and at EW end-game while not having to create bloated workarounds for problems inherent to BLM. And as Taranok points out, removing the timers leaves room for *better* mechanics.
The tagline for diehard players who insist the BLM design is perfect and beautiful really needs to be "better things aren't possible". -
01-23-2022, 09:05 AMIruruCeceWhen you actually start presenting better things that are possible you'll get whatever respect you're afforded. Until then, you're the jackass who came flying in here to say:Quote:
Originally Posted by AnaseSkyrider
Go cry misery elsewhere. Until you actually offer some of that same respect you demand, you're at best just another troll in a topic and discussion filled with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnaseSkyrider
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01-23-2022, 09:27 AMAetherdancer
Very good players are capable of internalizing the AF/UI timers, and that's the skeleton of my argument.
Practice and repetition will allow anyone to do the same, and that's important from the perspective of feeling rewarded by achieving mastery.
Some players don't want everyone to be able to play BLM well. Actually, if you haven't practiced the job, I *want* you to not be good at it, and for it to be hard for you. The idea of the "good black mage" would be diminished by making it easier, and that's what removing the timers would do. The community knows there's a HUGE difference between good and bad BLMs, and some of us like it that way. Very good BLMs always leave contingencies for when certain unpredictable attacks force them to move. Muscle memory can only take you so far on BLM, and very good BLMs make the most of it. There's a lot of risk/reward calculation.
As a person who cannot play BLM well, I enjoy finding "good black mages" and respect them. The difficulty in mastering BLM is knowing the entire choreography of encounters and where and when to plant themselves. They require the party to adjust to them more than any other DPS, for example, standing away from them to prevent baiting AoEs onto them. Most BLM mains enjoy taking on this challenge. The reward for top level BLM has consistently been the highest rDPS of any job at most points in the lifecycle of the game, and the timers have been an integral part of this risk/reward structure.
There is no way for top level BLM play to remain unchanged if you remove the AF/UI timers. It WILL become easier. When the risk isn't there, the reward isn't as sweet. Not to mention the classical justification for why their damage has traditionally topped the charts, would no longer be there. They'd need to forfeit that. You'd need to add another layer of difficulty, not merely some changes that make their optimal rotation continue to exist in an identical state. I have an idea for this: something like a 15s oGCD that gives them a buff that allows them to double the cast time of their next spell in exchange for tripling its potency. Beginning a cast will consume the buff. Canceling the cast forfeits the buff.
Now I don't necessarily agree with the timers from a job-fantasy perspective. I also don't like how fire spells are always your best strongest elemental spells and how they work against fire enemies, etc. FFXIV BLM is weird like that thematically, but I think it's justified by the gameplay design.
If you're willing to consider adding some extra risk/reward to the BLM gameplay loop, I'd be willing to replace AF/UI timers with it. But the crux of my position is this: BLM is challenging at the top level. The timers are an integral part of that. Removing them will remove obvious and subtle gameplay challenges that are opportunities for skill expression. It will bridge the gap between average players and experts, that's not debatable, and that's the opposite of what we want. -
01-23-2022, 09:29 AMFerrinusWhere has it been debunked? Can you quote or link to a post? It seems to me that when people describe the fluid nature of BLM spell sequencing in response to claims that it has a static "rotation" just like every melee job, those posts simply go ignored, only for the original complainant to repeat their original complaints a few pages later.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnaseSkyrider
Is the debunking just that the devs always patch out weird meme rotations? In the first place, that's not actually true, and in the second place, it's disingenuous to try to equate something like "never cast Fire IV or any spell with Blizzard in its name" to stuff like "delay your Paradox or cast it early in order to make room for procs you'd otherwise overwrite" or "replace your last Fire IV with a Despair to keep astral going" or "use swift or triplecast to refresh astral with 1s left on the timer". These on the spot dynamic modifications have no equivalent among classes that actually have static rotations because the only question that ever comes up with a static rotation is whether you can keep your GCD rolling or have to wait.
It seems like you, like some others in this thread, are confusing what a BLM does to a training dummy with what a BLM does to an enemy that can fight back. The unique thing about BLM is that, while these two things are identical for many jobs, they're very different for BLM. -
01-23-2022, 09:35 AMAnaseSkyriderThis isn't about respect, it's about arguing in good faith. I couldn't care less whether someone is respectful as long as they address the arguments, which you don't when you say things like:Quote:
Originally Posted by IruruCece
Do us all a favor and project somewhere else.Quote:
No, lets not and say we did.
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01-23-2022, 10:13 AMAnaseSkyriderIsn't the task of ABC itself what makes your rotation dynamic; trying to fill in with instant casts *somewhere* in the rotation so that you can keep big-CD abilities rolling and not drift? I won't pretend that *I, personally,* have an idea for a perfect mimicry of the very specific examples you gave (I'm too new to the FF14 and BLM to do that easily) like with handling placement of F1, F4, and Despair, but it looks to me like the previously posted ideas with a Paradox-lite mechanic or putting F4 on a charge system already accomplishes like 75% of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrinus
Whoa whoa, can you please elaborate on that?Quote:
Is the debunking just that the devs always patch out weird meme rotations? In the first place, that's not actually true, (emphasis added)
Can you explain further? I'm not really sure what you mean because I've even said things like ->Quote:
It seems like you, like some others in this thread, are confusing what a BLM does to a training dummy with what a BLM does to an enemy that can fight back. The unique thing about BLM is that, while these two things are identical for many jobs, they're very different for BLM.
Which clearly acknowledges the difference between performing on a dummy in a whiteroom vs in dealing with the actual array of encounter mechanics in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnaseSkyrider
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01-23-2022, 10:29 AMFerrinusA BLM's astral cycle basically looks like this: AAA-B-AAA-C. (A is fire 4, C is despair, B is fire or paradox). By default you can imagine one "blank" on either side of the B that another spell can go into without impacting your ability to finish the cycle. However, sometimes you need to insert two things in front of the B, or two things after the B, or despite your best efforts move when you'd prefer to be casting either the B or some of the As. That means that, unless you've planned things out carefully, you might have to place the B way earlier in the sequence than you intended and put another B later, or replace one (or more!) of the last As with a C, and so on. Not only does the order of spells in your astral cycle shuffle around, but the length of your astral cycle can expand or contract in response to changing circumstances, because a timer controls how many good spells as opposed to mediocre spells you can cram in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnaseSkyrider
If there was no timer, but rather an ammo/charge system, you should still be challenged to use your instant casts when movement is required and to use your instant casts of shortening the effective cast times of your slowest, hardest-hitting spells, but you'd never actually have to make tradeoffs or sacrifices in terms of how many of those spells you'd cast at all. You'd always, rather than just hopefully get to cast six F4s and one Despair per cycle.
Also a lot of tricks that feel great to pull off and get away with would simply cease to have relevance. For instance, if I have 4s left on my astral timer and a polyglot proc that's about to overwrite, I'd normally have to either sacrifice the Xeno or the Despair. But, if I have Swift or Triple up, I can do something cute: cast Xeno, activate Swift as my GCD rolls, and then cast Despair with 1 second left on the clock, breathing a huge sigh of relief as I refresh my timer and get both my hardest-hitting spells out. Without a timer, there's no pressure: my Despair is guaranteed, and the only thing I have to worry about is a delay.
As far as I know the "hypermeme" rotation from 5.X was never patched out unless you count 6.0 coming out, and we're in 6.05 right now with goofy paradox tricks intact. I expect some potency changes in 6.08 that will make it untenable to simply forswear Fire 4 or whatever, but I'm not sure if we can expect every last one of the Transpose optimizations floating around out there to be rendered inoperable, because why would they be?Quote:
Whoa whoa, can you please elaborate on that?
What I mean is like, a Dragoon or something that's on a dummy can just do their 1-2-3-4-5 every time with no problems. A Dragoon who is instead fighting a boss might have trouble maintaining uptime, so their rotation would look more like 1-2-3........4-5. The better they get, the smaller the gap between that 3 and that 4 becomes.Quote:
Can you explain further? I'm not really sure what you mean because I've even said things like ->
Which clearly acknowledges the difference between performing on a dummy in a whiteroom vs in dealing with the actual array of encounter mechanics in the game.
A Black Mage who has to deal with fight mechanics can't just do AAA-B-A...........AA-C, because they will lose Enochian. When they're still bad at the fight, they'll just have to settle for AAA-B-A-C or something. If they want to maintain "uptime" they literally need to concoct a new sequence of spells appropriate to that particular set of mechanics. -
01-23-2022, 02:16 PMGruntlerSomething to note about the caster role as defined as a playstyle. To greater or lesser degree, every caster has some sort of challenge in their kit they must overcome which includes casting spells but also involves refreshing timers (BLM Must Enochian (TM)), range, (RDM Must Stab (TM)) or adherence to strict schedule (SMN Must Trance (TM)) while giving them a plethora of tools in their kit which can be juxtaposed and rearranged with a measure of flexibility to solve those problems. So, while a caster can't simply repeat the same 12 step program of their rotation, they also aren't designed with that in mind. A Melee has their button sequence, and that's it. They're nonflexible or any flexibility really suuucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrinus
But that BLM might have trouble just doing AAA-B-AAA-C when they have to move in there, but they also have enough tools in their kit that they can work around that, going AAA-(sharpcast)B-AE(triplecast)AAC and adjusting things accordingly. That requirement to be flexible is both a disadvantage (in that you can't just tunnel on a set-in-stone sequence on any caster) but it is also a strength (in that if you enjoy being able to swap things around and be flexible as a dpser, you'll enjoy this playstyle considerably more.)
This additional vector of job-challenge is something that's really fleshed out the caster role in Endwalker, and that's why people are resisting wanting to remove this aspect to BLM by making their challenges (and therefore the value of caster-role-flexibility) lessened. BLM Must Timers (TM). So what do you do about this? You have more tools than spells to deal with this. So how do you handle it? -
01-28-2022, 02:46 PMTaranokThe issue is, BLM could have anything else. Timers just are not a fun mechanic. They are not necessary to flesh out the class. Even in a world absent timers, they would still be pretty well and truly challenged in their role, as is, because the class spends the overwhelming majority of its time sitting still with cast bars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gruntler
This isn't where the timer issue stops though. The simple fact is it's a major drag on the quality of black mage itself, and like Greased Lightning, it's a poor mechanic of the class. That is, I absolutely despise chain casting umbral soul between dungeon pulls. Every single class that has to do something like this has had the mechanic removed because there is no world where chain casting an ability between pulls or needing to set up literal macros to manage the timers during downtime is fun.
This is true in boss transitions where you have full control. Chain casting umbral soul is not a fun mechanic. And everyone here has suggested: "Just create a way to lock timers." You're creating mechanics to shore up a badly designed mechanic, when you can remove a bad mechanic and create newer mechanics and bring the class in a new direction for the first time since Heavensward. No, really, the class has played more or less the same as it has since heavensward, disregarding explicitly the change from the garbage mechanic that was HE enochian.
Beyond this, due to the garbage structure created by the timers, the class is a convoluted mess to learn and overly frustrating to fit into new content. The timers are the challenge you overcome to even play BLM as intended, they have next to no impact on the skill ceiling outside of explicitly managing when you despair right before a boss jumps so you don't waste time/excess mana on spells like Blizzard 4 right before a boss jumps. That is the extent of the timer's impact on the ceiling, right there. That is the only impact it has because timers really aren't a skill ceiling mechanic. Which means, if we remove them, the ceiling, the difficulty of the class, would still be there.
And if you, simply, get rid of a garbage-tier mechanic like the timers, then a new mechanic can actually be added. Monk didn't have a real mechanic until they removed greased lightning and added Masterful Blitz. And the class was being held back in terms of player enjoyment because of the sheer amount of positionals it had. Of those 2, Greased wasn't a real mechanic, it was a gatekeeper. Positionals were a mechanic, and we can argue until we're blue in the face over whether they're fun or not, but sometimes trimming something a minority loves helps bring the class as a whole to a better place.
Moving back to BLM, it has exactly 1 mechanic right now. Always be casting. That is the extent of it. Timers are not a mechanic, they are the bar you must jump over until you can play the class, and every time you play it, you must jump over it. It's an annoying, frustrating hurdle to the class and, just as with monk, Black Mage is being held back by this mechanic. I am not asking for a power vacuum, I want to maintain a lot of the core structure of the class even absent timers. Things that other black mages love, like needing to substitute out spells.
Most importantly, I'd love an actual mechanic added to the class, but one that slips in and enhances/enforces the way it currently plays, just without the frustrating, needlessly difficult and archaic timers. This mechanic can take many forms from something like: "Casting 2 fire 4s enables the cast of a new spell," to basically anything else. Which will help break up the rotation. Taking the paradox mechanic and dropping it down to when you get Sharpcast (and yeeting Sharpcast into the trash bin with the rest of the procs), but making it so Paradox increases the DPS of every fire 1 spell to be like Paradox itself so you're encouraged to do things other than fire 4 spam. But the class doesn't have a Masterful Blitz or Life of the Dragon or Stickers or pretty much anything that any other class has. It just has superfluous timers and awful procs.
I want to see the class have a leveling experience that doesn't require every fresh player of the class to relearn BLM 20 different times because of how wildly the class changes. The class is legitimately held back by its ancient design, and it's high time the class actually got a real, engaging mechanic than procs I literally ignore because T3 procs more often than not, and Sharpcast has a cooldown so short I can always use it for paradox. And the timers, those stupid timers, completely drag on the class itself to the point where the class feels absolutely awful to play.
The second I had to make a macro explicitly to manage maintaining umbral ice when I went into DRS as BLM, I knew instantly, then and there, just how awful a design this structure of the class is. And I have been masterfully using this class since the days of Heavensward when Enochian was complete trash.
To even suggest it's in the same realm of challenge as getting into melee for RDM when RDM has an actual class mechanic (black/white mana) is actually insulting to the class. And remember, even without timers, maintaining the AAA-B-AAA-C rotation would still be difficult.
Provided you reinforce the structure of AAA-B-AAA-C in any of its forms in any way, the class will be just fine without the timers. The timers are not necessary to this. Even without timers, even if the class was exclusively fire 4 spam, it would still be the single most punished class in the game simply from interrupting a single spell, because that is the primary difficulty challenge of black mage. The sooner BLM mains understand this, the sooner BLM can actually do something different than being literally the same class since Heavensward. -
01-28-2022, 02:55 PMtearagionWhat I glean from this post: you don't like the timers, and are unwilling to read the post 2 above yours, therefore BLM should be changed to accommodate your preference. Timers aren't a bad mechanic just because you don't like them. You're going to have to get over this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranok
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01-28-2022, 02:57 PMTaranokFun fact, after mathing it out, if you ever have to substitute in a Fire 1 into the level 90 rotation, it costs you 300 potency. 401, technically, but as it's a faster cast the actual impact comes down to about 300.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrinus
I think you can literally screw up a sticker (as in, do a 1-2-1-2-3 combo on SAM because you tapped the wrong button) to even approach that level of punishment.
If you have to interrupt a fire 4, it will cost you at least 400 potency. Closer to 900 if you interrupt it closer to the end, because fire 4 is, legitimately, a 958 potency spell (310 * 1.8 * 1.3 * 1.2 * 1.1). To put this into perspective, Midare Setsugeka comes in swinging for about 1118.7 potency. Higanbana is about 1356 potency. The newly buffed Xenoglossy is 1304.
Why is this relevant? Because anyone who thinks timers add anything interesting to the class in terms of challenge really have forgotten just how much of a challenge it is to not interrupt fire 4s, to greed standing in AoEs to greed out a cast to keep the cast time rolling. Because so much of BLM's damage is tied to individual, long spell casts that even interrupting a single one is on the same order of magnitude as screwing up something like Ten-Chi-Jin for Ninja.
In other news, I hate the new BLM AoE rotation as well. Because it bloats out a class with massively overbloated bars and also, simultaneously, is so long that I basically can only use it in one cycle before literally everything is dead. Between it, fouls, flares, and high fire 2s. Even the old one let you cycle several times on mobs.
To add this in since I do have more to say on this: I'm not asking, and have never asked, for timers to be removed with nothing to fill in the void. There are numerous things the timers accomplish that should be preserved. My question to you on this is: What could be added that maintains this flexibility and additional punishment you like, without having the timers? Because literally every other class in the game can have their rotation interrupted and not need to go through mental gymnastics to recover the rotation. To my mind, it has never even been a core part of the class. Just something I had to suffer through. It never gave me a sense of accomplishment or feel good, because you have to master this aspect just to play the class. This is why the timers are a gatekeeping mechanic and have no actual impact on the ceiling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrinus
So what could be done that accomplishes this playstyle without needing to cripple the rotation on a complete failure? Because every time someone, including you, defends timers, you assume the challenge cannot be acquired in some other way, or that the class wouldn't get something new. You just assume it will be removed as is. Actually, the part I find most ironic is when people agree with many of the negative things I say, such as dropping timers during boss transitions, but want to save the timers while preventing the drop, when the easier option is removing the timers and doing something else to the class than locking the timers' decay.
Recovery rotations aren't really something I consider a fun part of any class, and the devs seem to agree as they've systematically been nuking every last recovery rotation from the game, Black Mage and Bard being the final holdouts after Ninja, Dragoon, and Monk had their failures removed or, had a button to shore up a mechanic that used to be good, but has since decayed into bad. Bard's recovery being if they die mid-song. -
01-28-2022, 02:58 PMTaranokI read the post two above it, you just don't actually want to read an argument and instead dismiss it instantly.Quote:
Originally Posted by tearagion
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01-28-2022, 04:30 PMtearagionAlright, god, fine. Here's why you're wrong line by line:Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranok
Subjective. Timers are fun to me. Things can be well designed without timers sure, but BLM is well designed now with timers as has been outlined already.
People have detailed a solution to the Umbral Soul spam already and you despising it is subjective. I don't mind spamming US at all.
Read above, Enochian change is only a significant buff if you dropped your timer twice within 15 seconds.
The structure isn't garbage just because you say it is. It's not convoluted just because you refuse to understand. The impact on the skill ceiling is ever-present because respecting the timer is a core skill of BLM. Your statement that they don't effect the highest end players shows your lack of understanding of the job.
BLM with timers already adds new mechanics every expansion that create novel ways to approach the core gameplay, keeping timers demonstrably doesn't impact this.
Timers don't stop being a mechanic because you say so. They are by definition a gameplay mechanic.
You're asking for more stringent and boring mechanics than a timer. Endorsing for the removal of Sharpcast doesn't help your case. BLM doesn't need to be like the other classes.
The levelling experience is disappointing until level 60, though recently alleviated by making Aspect Mastery a level 1 trait so they are aware of the issue.
See US 7 lines above.
He didn't say exactly that.
The cycle is reinforced and enhanced already by timers as explained by Ferrinus.
Screwing up a rotation costs you damage. More at 11. A rotation that punishes you for screwing up isn't an inherently bad thing. I look for punishment and challenge when I'm job shopping.
And the last 3 epitomize "design the job around me because I personally don't like timers". -
01-28-2022, 04:31 PMIruruCeceNo, it isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranok
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01-28-2022, 05:17 PMVentVanitasLike what? A bank and spend gauge like Ninki/Kenki/Chakra/Beast/Blood? A phase change where you do more damage like Hypercharge/Enshroud/Life of the Dragon/Inner Release? A follow up attack like Starfall Dance/Blast Arrow/Ogi Namakiri?Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranok
You're giving SE way too much credit if you think they'd be able to replace AF/UI timers with anything new or interesting. -
01-28-2022, 05:28 PMTaranokThat's not an argument and offers nothing to the discussion. Or should we bring back BotD and Greased Lightning, which were likewise holding their respective classes back? Should we reduce the threshold of RDM's mana disparity system back to SB/ShB days? I don't see anyone complaining about the baseline level of RDM being easier to play. The class is at the best it's been when they lowered the skill ceiling. In fact, to keep parity with the old system, it would have to be reduced to a differential of 18.75 mana, meaning it got about 50% easier to run the same rotation.Quote:
Originally Posted by IruruCece
You're not even engaging the point, just saying: "No you," and being done with it.
You're not even trying to come up with a mechanic. Hell, I couldn't think of Masterful Blitz, and it's the first time Monk has had a real mechanic that wasn't just dancing around the boss forever for no real reason. I've already suggested ways to move back on this several times in this very thread. Ways to keep the current rotation while removing the timers. Ways that maintain the current rotation while removing timers. And that was without trying to add a new mechanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by VentVanitas
The idea I've floated around internally amongst my friends is that if you cast X number of a given spell, you are allowed to cast Y spell. Such as casting fire 4 twice enables high fire 4 to be cast once. This can have failure mechanics added back in, like making it if you cast anything else you lose the cast of high fire 4.
Go on, try, use your imagination instead of assuming that the only thing that's good is what we have, right now. -
01-28-2022, 07:00 PMIruruCeceThat's all your stance rates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranok
"Timers/positionals aren't mechanics because I say so, and we can have better because I say so!" doesn't actually mean you've said anything truthful or meaningful. There isn't anything to be gained with arguing with someone who decides that a mechanic isn't a mechanic simply because you hate it. You've already made up your mind, and you've also wasted the time of more patient and knowledgeable people by spending an incredible amount of time drafting up posts that can be boiled down to "Nuh uh!"
"the first time Monk has had a real mechanic" was Chakra, Greased Lightning, and it's positionals, which all combined at one point to make the job feel distinctly what it was from ARR to ShB. You don't have to like a mechanic for it to be a mechanic. If nothing else, Blitz is half baked nonsense that borrows the concept of jutsus from NIN, which did it better, while also serving as a lame excuse to recycle OGCD animations that were also stripped away from the job. -
01-28-2022, 07:53 PMFerrinusI don't really care about the magnitude of the potency loss. If it's too big it can just be massaged with numbers tweaks (a trait that increases Fire 1's potency once you've got Fire 4, faster cast times or higher damage on F3/B3 when you aren't in any aspect, something like that) - but I also don't particularly think it's too big.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranok
I genuinely don't think the flexible, improvisation-heavy nature of playing Black Mage could be preserved without some kind of time pressure. In another world, instead of being a timer on your job gauge it might be a timer on the enemy, like they're going to be vulnerable to fire for the next 5s, then vulnerable to thunder for the next 5s after that, but then the next vulnerability will be totally random, etc, and you have to try to squeeze in the appropriate spells before your window elapses or do other on-the-spot alterations to your plan as fuses burn out and procs go off, but if there isn't some kind of window closing on you regardless of what you yourself are doing the gameplay's not going to be preserved with any fidelity.Quote:
To add this in since I do have more to say on this: I'm not asking, and have never asked, for timers to be removed with nothing to fill in the void. There are numerous things the timers accomplish that should be preserved. My question to you on this is: What could be added that maintains this flexibility and additional punishment you like, without having the timers?
(A funny stopgap would be, instead of a timer, you literally lose MP while moving when in Astral mode)
Relatedly, I think you're actually overstating the extent to which Monk has been freed from its timer, because while it doesn't have GL upkeep anymore it does have to watch the expiration of both Disciplined Fist and Demolish, and those two status effects appear in different places and have slightly different durations and you'll lose more and more damage if you don't play around them. However, keeping up Disciplined Fist isn't nearly as fun as keeping up Enochian; there's no equivalent of the last-second swiftcast Despair. -
01-28-2022, 08:05 PMFerrinus
I also want to note that while I've long thought BLM should learn equivalents of F4 and B4 earlier in its level progression, that kind of becomes less and less important as the level cap grows and all jobs get their stuff spread later and later. Like, BLM 50 is still probably more indicative of your future experience than RPR 50. 60 is when MNK unlocks Blitz, etc.
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01-28-2022, 08:20 PMPyurBlueNo BLM can't have anything else, and in the context of FF14, the timer is fun. You can't get around the fact that whether it's liked or not is subjective and people do disagree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranok
The challenge will be severely diminished without the timer. It is the timer that provides the challenge because it is the only thing that forces a BLM player to really get creative with the rotation. Without the restriction of the timer, all you have to do is press your buttons in order. It's true that you may still have to deal with interrupted casts, but they become trivial because once whatever is keeping you from casting is gone, you just go back to pressing whatever button you need to without thought. What else is there to do?Quote:
They are not necessary to flesh out the class. Even in a world absent timers, they would still be pretty well and truly challenged in their role, as is, because the class spends the overwhelming majority of its time sitting still with cast bars.
Umbral Soul could definitely be better, but that has nothing to do with the timer and everything to do with US itself.Quote:
This isn't where the timer issue stops though. The simple fact is it's a major drag on the quality of black mage itself, and like Greased Lightning, it's a poor mechanic of the class. That is, I absolutely despise chain casting umbral soul between dungeon pulls. Every single class that has to do something like this has had the mechanic removed because there is no world where chain casting an ability between pulls or needing to set up literal macros to manage the timers during downtime is fun.
We're suggesting how to fix US without making unneeded and detrimental class changes.Quote:
This is true in boss transitions where you have full control. Chain casting umbral soul is not a fun mechanic. And everyone here has suggested: "Just create a way to lock timers." You're creating mechanics to shore up a badly designed mechanic, when you can remove a bad mechanic and create newer mechanics and bring the class in a new direction for the first time since Heavensward. No, really, the class has played more or less the same as it has since heavensward, disregarding explicitly the change from the garbage mechanic that was HE enochian.
The challenge of the timer is that you need to optimize your rotation on the fly. Without the timer the class becomes as simple as it's base rotation because that never needs to change outside of dealing with the last sliver of boss HP. Removing the timer dulls the class. I also have never found BLM to be frustrating in new content, even back when I was a new player. It's the class I use most often when going into new content blind.Quote:
Beyond this, due to the garbage structure created by the timers, the class is a convoluted mess to learn and overly frustrating to fit into new content. The timers are the challenge you overcome to even play BLM as intended, they have next to no impact on the skill ceiling outside of explicitly managing when you despair right before a boss jumps so you don't waste time/excess mana on spells like Blizzard 4 right before a boss jumps. That is the extent of the timer's impact on the ceiling, right there. That is the only impact it has because timers really aren't a skill ceiling mechanic. Which means, if we remove them, the ceiling, the difficulty of the class, would still be there.
BLM doesn't need to change. It's fun as it is. Leaving it alone is the better alternative to the change that you are requesting, at least for many. What you want is a new class. That's fine with me, but please don't ruin my game just to get the caster you want.Quote:
And if you, simply, get rid of a garbage-tier mechanic like the timers, then a new mechanic can actually be added. Monk didn't have a real mechanic until they removed greased lightning and added Masterful Blitz. And the class was being held back in terms of player enjoyment because of the sheer amount of positionals it had. Of those 2, Greased wasn't a real mechanic, it was a gatekeeper. Positionals were a mechanic, and we can argue until we're blue in the face over whether they're fun or not, but sometimes trimming something a minority loves helps bring the class as a whole to a better place.
Learning different rotation is unavoidable in FF14. BLM may be hit particularly bad, but again timers have nothing to do with it. PLD gets magic casts that are only good for attacking outside of melee, to being rigidly locked into their rotation as DPS tools, to being healing tools later on. Not to mention they have to deal with a DoT that breaks the rules of DoT's for some 8-10 levels, I forget how much, and outpowers their not DoT combo finisher. WHM enforces GCD healing from the start when endgame healing is completely the opposite, OGCD dominated. Even when you get to high levels, it still has its primary instant AoE heal locked all the way to 76, which really changes how it feels to heal raidwides.Quote:
I want to see the class have a leveling experience that doesn't require every fresh player of the class to relearn BLM 20 different times because of how wildly the class changes. The class is legitimately held back by its ancient design, and it's high time the class actually got a real, engaging mechanic than procs I literally ignore because T3 procs more often than not, and Sharpcast has a cooldown so short I can always use it for paradox. And the timers, those stupid timers, completely drag on the class itself to the point where the class feels absolutely awful to play.
The timer doesn't make BLM a mess to level, and if the BLM level experience is to be improved, low level BLM needs to be more like high level BLM. EW partially addressed this by making a 72 trait level 1 or whatever. US's level should be drastically reduced as well, and then BLM just needs some kind of stand in for F4 at level 30 the latest.
I'm curious, do you enjoy sub 50 BLM? The timer may as well not exist when it's constantly refreshed, yet the class is at it's most boring, at least in my opinion. The only interesting thing in the rotation is the occasional F3 proc, but they are one of the worst proc rewards in the game because of how little time you have to process them. F1 spam is subject to ABC, but that doesn't really make it interesting at all. ABC is just the nature of the game, not a mechanic that you build a class around.Quote:
Provided you reinforce the structure of AAA-B-AAA-C in any of its forms in any way, the class will be just fine without the timers. The timers are not necessary to this. Even without timers, even if the class was exclusively fire 4 spam, it would still be the single most punished class in the game simply from interrupting a single spell, because that is the primary difficulty challenge of black mage. The sooner BLM mains understand this, the sooner BLM can actually do something different than being literally the same class since Heavensward.
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01-29-2022, 03:02 AMFerrinus
It's also worth restating that reinforcing the structure of AAA-B-AAA-C would be bad. The beauty of BLM is that you are constantly changing up, stretching, or shrinking that structure in response to, you guessed it, the timer.
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01-29-2022, 12:16 PMVentVanitasSo in other words... a follow up attack? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranok
Ignoring how rigid it makes AF phase (because the two people above me have already said it better), I fail to see how this mechanic would require removing timers or why this particular suggestion would even need to exist on BLM in first place, because such things already exist in the game without needing to be a job central mechanic/gauge.
Nah, I don't feel like it because what we have works. If I want to spice up my BLM gameplay then I'll just swap jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranok
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01-29-2022, 02:44 PMGruntlerCouldn't fill with blizzard 1? What is a macro doing for you here?Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranok
I don't know. Honestly I don't care. This all just seems like a long winded way of saying 'I don't like Black Mage's core mechanics so it should be changed to a different caster job' when you could just as easily have said 'Can we have another caster job?'
There seems to be this idea in the community that it's okay to want to wreck a job's core gameplay for the people who love it in order to satisfy those who hate its core gameplay--see also 'RDMs' who want it to have dots because they heard dots are good on other jobs, or people who want to remove continuation from GNB, or... well you get the picture. -
01-31-2022, 02:07 AMTankHunter678
I would simply like the timer to be a bit longer, like 20 seconds or 30 seconds to accommodate the mechanics tempo.
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01-31-2022, 04:39 AMFerrinus
I would go the opposite direction: shorten the timer but make the difference between F4 and F1 (or Paradox, which is adjusted to be weaker than F4 overall) less dramatic, so that it's more common + justifiable to use multiple AF-refreshing spells during your astral cycle depending on how often you've had to move, how many procs you needed to discharge, etc. AAABAAAC would still be best but AABAABAC could be a little less of a loss.