The Problems With Ninja In Endwalker

I completely agree, most of the people saying just use throwing dagger LOL probably aren't ninja mains. I don't understand how people can complain about assassinate's animation lock (which I was fine with) but be completely OK with raijus. My major gripe is that they turned ninja into yet another fell cleave spamming job.

I completely agree, most of the people saying just use throwing dagger LOL probably aren't ninja mains. I don't understand how people can complain about assassinate's animation lock (which I was fine with) but be completely OK with raijus. My major gripe is that they turned ninja into yet another fell cleave spamming job.

When i first seen these abilities during the class showcase I thought one would be a gap closer and the other a gap opener, which I thought was pretty cool. But the reality is 2 back to back gap closers that you lose if you use any other weaponskill seems pointless. What is the point of having multiple charges without a reason to close the gap. Sure you can use Shukuchi to make a gap but as a controller player that is super awkward (maybe if there was a macro to make Shukuchi a gap opener like there is to make it a gap closer would make this better). I think the simple fix for this is make it to where using a weaponskill doesn't remove your charges. I would go one further and make it to where using ninjutsu doesn't activate its GCD, that way you can use it immediately after using Raiton. As is you can almost run to the target after catting Raiton before you can even use Forked

Yea, I agree with most on the issue with Raiju. If the restriction of "can't use other weapon skills" was taken away, it would most definitely fix the issue for me. I couldn't wait to get to 90 to get the new skill to sadly only feeling disappointed once I did. I had so much high hopes for the new skills. As it stands, I feel it almost single handedly sucked the life out of my favorite class and made it less fun to play for me. I'm probably going to shelve Ninja and play Reaper till hopefully this is addressed. Please fix this :-(

My Story first:
I beat Patch Day Vishap as NIN and faced multiple challenges as Ninja aswell, I loved the NIN Rework in Shadowbringers because everything lined up so well and my first impression of Endwalker's NIN was Gasp and Shock THEY REMOVED SHADOWFANG! and what is Huraijin!?

My Leveling Experience:
I lvled NIN with my Trusts and after a slow start, adjusting to Shadowfangless Ninja I come to grow to come to terms with it and even saw the positives like that I don't need to use Macros for my OCDs anymore because of my Controller playstyle. Now Dream within a Dream is where Shadowfang was before and I'd say NIN is playable but Raiju is a Problem!

I have multiple Problems with Raiju:
1. GCD Double Tap Gap Closer even though Shukuchi still exists with it's Raiton reset trait
2. Raiton proc requirement with a 15sec duration and it's easy to lose those procs
3. as a Result of Point 1 & 2 Raiju is heavily restricting and plays against the general design of NIN Playstyle (in my opinion)

My Idea to Fix Raiju:
Let the Phantom-Kamaitachi perform Raiju instead of the Player outside of Bunshin,
imagine it like this:
NIN does Raiton, gets Raiju proc, presses the Phantom-Kamaitachi button and the Phantom performs both Raiju Skills.
That way the NIN doesn't get restricted mobility like Raiju does now and to be frank, when I saw Raiju in the Job Action Trailer I thought to myself just why?^^ it's sad that this lvl90 skill causes so many problems

I think the removal of Shadowfang was a decent choice, it was kind of awkward in the NIN rotation and mostly just fluff dmg. If anything, NIN should get more multi-hit skills like Dream within a Dream (that also come to some degree, with animationlocks to increase Skillcap, but thats just my take on it) for the oldschool feel of Final Fantasy Ninjas.

Also, Which genius thought changing assassinate into this current mess was a good idea? If anything, NIN should get more ways to interact with ShB assassinate, not multiple ways to reapply freaking Huton. Applying it with Ninjutsus, Ten Chi Jin or Kassatsu (but dont tell anyone i ever said this) are more than enough ways to reapply it and keeping it up with Armor Crush was more than sufficient.

Also, the Shukiho III Trait is literally just a filler Ability, cmon Squeenix, you can do better than that.


RIP ShB NIN, you're going to be missed dearly.

well for me I timed Shadowfang with Trickattack, like I saw that Shadowfang was Up Okay Trickattack Time
and yes Shukiho III is quite a waste I'd rather have it that my Toad triggers Hollow instead ^^

This is my first expansión lanuch and i was wondering how soon do they do job balance updates typically? Mainly, because I dont want to waste my raid/extreme gear tokens/coffers on ninja now if it's gonna stay this way for a while before things are addressed. For me specifically hopefully taking the lost of Raiju using weapon skills away.

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Originally Posted by YourBoii

This is my first expansión lanuch and i was wondering how soon do they do job balance updates typically? Mainly, because I dont want to waste my raid/extreme gear tokens/coffers on ninja now if it's gonna stay this way for a while before things are addressed. For me specifically hopefully taking the lost of Raiju using weapon skills away.

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The first balance patch should be on Tuesday when Savage is released.

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

well for me I timed Shadowfang with Trickattack, like I saw that Shadowfang was Up Okay Trickattack Time
and yes Shukiho III is quite a waste I'd rather have it that my Toad triggers Hollow instead ^^

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But that's the thing... old Shadowfang should always be timed with trick attack due to the cooldown it had. Once you learn this, it becomes braindead as in just yet another button to push during the TA window. There's no room for thought there and Shadowfang didn't interact with anything else. If it was just a frontload damage action it would be the same.

Generally, a dot's defining gameplay is around the caveat of having to babysit them, procure the right timings to refresh and maybe mind snapshotting them to smaller buff windows. If a dot has a duration of 60s and a recast timer of 60s it becomes pointless as a dot, especially if your job is equipped with a 60s window buff.

The only (minor) issue I have with 6.0 NIN is that Raiju stacks fade if not used immediately. Otherwise, I really like all of the changes and the rotation feels great. Raiju isn't awkward at all - it fits nicely into the mid/tail end of TA, synergizes well with Bhavacakra and provides great utility on certain fights (Zodiark EX for example).

The complaint about Raiju being a gap closer are over-exaggerated.

https://luckybancho.ldblog.jp/archives/56364034.html
It's nice to see people are dropping NIN like crazy and moving to other jobs. Let's observe the Death of Ninja

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Originally Posted by xou_

https://luckybancho.ldblog.jp/archives/56364034.html
It's nice to see people are dropping NIN like crazy and moving to other jobs. Let's observe the Death of Ninja

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I wonder if the amount of Reapers will drop off hard at some point or if it will continue to be popular.
I really find myself getting bored when playing it for extended periods of time, it's too straight forward Enshroud isn't even rly that exciting to me.
The constant visual flash with the effects makes it feels too linear too imo, it's like a straight line visually instead of ups and downs of excitement.
Enshroud isn't even rly that different than your 1 2 3.

Maybe it's just because of how Gauge dependent it is, but it never really feels like I have a goal or am doing something which makes it feel monotonous to me.
On NIN you have clear goals and things to do and look forward to ( unless you hate the Raiju spam, which granted I actually don't ).

I can perfectly understand not liking any form of spam on NIN, but I do appreciate that Raiju takes just a teensy bit more thought than Fell Cleave or Heat Blast. (I've admittedly come around to liking it) It's really only spammy in 2 minute windows and opener.

I guess the bigger problem with the job is too much work for very little damage and utility. Currently Trick Attack contributes less than MNK's Brotherhood. What an odd reversal of roles this has become, huh.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

I can perfectly understand not liking any form of spam on NIN, but I do appreciate that Raiju takes just a teensy bit more thought than Fell Cleave or Heat Blast. (I've admittedly come around to liking it) It's really only spammy in 2 minute windows and opener.

I guess the bigger problem with the job is too much work for very little damage and utility. Currently Trick Attack contributes less than MNK's Brotherhood. What an odd reversal of roles this has become, huh.

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My main issue with Raiju really is that it doesn't all fit into Trick windows.
Having something else to do outside of Trick windows too at the end is cool I guess, but it kinda feels a bit weird I dunno, I am so used to fitting everything into a window.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

My main issue with Raiju really is that it doesn't all fit into Trick windows.
Having something else to do outside of Trick windows too at the end is cool I guess, but it kinda feels a bit weird I dunno, I am so used to fitting everything into a window.

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Go a year back on this forum, and you'll find that almost every thread about NIN includes at least one complaint about there not being enough to do outside of the Trick Attack Window.

The world turns.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

Go a year back on this forum, and you'll find that almost every thread about NIN includes at least one complaint about there not being enough to do outside of the Trick Attack Window.

The world turns.

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I do think it was too repetitive outside of windows too.
But I associate Raiju with the window because it's so much of what you do in it.
You're in the process of spamming Raiju and then the time runs out and you're also saving your Mudras for it.

Bhavacakra are also part of the window but it's not as heavily associated with it.

So based on what I understand from the patch notes.

Forked and Fleeting are now the same, one is just charge and the other is no charge ( charge as in '' rush to target '' ).
So if you didn't like the spammy nature there will now be less variety to it even ( in terms of animation ? ).

Phantom Kamaitachi also no longer requires a Bunshin stack and you don't lose it after you use up your Bunshin stacks you've got 45 sec to use it.

Hmm and that's it.
The potency buffs were nice at least I wonder if it's going to be enough tho.
Forked and Fleeting are now 560.

The thing that stands out to me however with Raiju is that it doesn't say if you only get one cast from Raiton now or if it's still two.
All it says is '' The status effect granted upon execution has been changed from "Forked Raiju Ready" to "Raiju Ready."
The status effect duration has been increased from 15 to 30 seconds. ''

That makes me think you can only use Raiju once instead of twice <_<.
Since both now use up '' Raiju Ready '' instead.
But we'll see I guess servers soon up again.

I didn't read anything about being able to use weapon skills with Raiju tho.
Only a potency increase and a separation of them so that one is now just a melee.
Which imo at least was a non-issue to begin with nothing will actually change unless I guess maybe the animation changed for the melee.

Just by reading this, I feel like this is a nerf to me. If we assume you do the TCJ combo and fit the two raiton casts into our trick attack window, We are losing 6 instances of instant aeolian edge or better damage. They turned the raiju combo into a one or other thing so now we only get 3 instances of 560 damage. Our combined 1200 + 1350 potency damage over the change this is now, 1680. Even just the single instance of raiton cast 560 versus 400+450 just seems like a decrease in damage output to me. Im not the brightest ninja out there tho, so maybe im not understanding something properly here or overlooking something? Anyway, I personally loved the raiju spam. Kinda reminded me of heatblast spam on mech. This is sad for me.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

So based on what I understand from the patch notes.

Forked and Fleeting are now the same, one is just charge and the other is no charge ( charge as in '' rush to target '' ).
So if you didn't like the spammy nature there will now be less variety to it even ( in terms of animation ? ).

Phantom Kamaitachi also no longer requires a Bunshin stack and you don't lose it after you use up your Bunshin stacks you've got 45 sec to use it.

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So now, the Raijus require two buttons, but Bunshin/Phantom were reduced to one.

Just checked, we only get one Raiju per Raiton. Seems to me they should have doubled Raiju's potency to compensate for the loss of one.

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Originally Posted by AC9Breaker

Our combined 1200 + 1350 potency damage over the change this is now, 1680. Even just the single instance of raiton cast 560 versus 400+450 just seems like a decrease in damage output to me.

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You're comparing 6gcd's vs 3gcd's here. Don't forget that after your 3 Forked/Fleeing Raiju you proceed with your Aeolian combo, so it's actually 1200+ 1350 before the patch vs. 1680 + 900 after the patch.

I already miss how the animations were always paired together.

Don't know why they increased the duration of the buff when it still goes away when you use anything else, I'm pretty sure that was all that was being asked of the skill.

Do you know for sure they go away after using it now? Have you used it yet? Trying t figure this out

For the buff on bunshin i like it, it's a good change for me and we neeed that (but maybe more potency on kamaitachi).

But on raiju, i really dont understand... now we have 2 buttons for no reason, except to do a dash on the boss but who care...i wont use a raiton to dash on boss...without exception.
30s stacks yeah... to loose it when u do ur 1 2 3 combo, they really dont understand the raiju spells... I am a bit mad :/

Love the bunshin change but the raiju change almost feels worst to me. It does solve the attacking while binding and max melee issues but I liked the animation of them back to back. My main issue was it breaking from weapon skills which many felt would also solve that issue and keep the cool animations but now that you dont have 2 to do forked then fleeting it feels less cool to me and underwhelming after doing it on a target dummy, and now I have a extra button to use for only said issue, and it still breaks on another weap skill use but its only one GCD now lost instead.....I dont know, I'll take it to an instance and see how it feels on a boss later.

Yeah, this Raiju change ain't it. It's just unnecessary bloat and being only able to use only one of them feels worse. I hope they revert it in 6.1.

What? Hell no. If they revert it back I’m done with nin.

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Originally Posted by Cyrexs

What? Hell no. If they revert it back I’m done with nin.

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why ? the raiju change isnt good, it's good for you ?

It’s not prefect but it’s SO much better than before. Being able to choose to use a gap closer or not makes it actually playable again. I’m honestly surprised to see people saying they want it changed back because they whole reason the changed it this patch was because everyone hated it. The only thing they need to do now is make it so it isn’t cancelled by the 1,2,3 combo.

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Originally Posted by Kreyd

You're comparing 6gcd's vs 3gcd's here. Don't forget that after your 3 Forked/Fleeing Raiju you proceed with your Aeolian combo, so it's actually 1200+ 1350 before the patch vs. 1680 + 900 after the patch.

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lol damn im dumb. Thank you for pointing out the obvious that I missed. After playing a few instances with it. The change isn't so bad. In fact this feels more natural. This is actually a buff for a ninja but only if you use your skills correctly and a nerf if you don't play correctly. The phantom kamitachi change is nice too. All in all these are nuanced changes that are pretty good once you get really get into it.

I think these changes are fantastic. I usually expect SE to respond to any issues with the most backwards solution possible, but this time they've surprised me. Not only does it solve the max melee and binding issues, it also reduces the awful one button spam - very efficient and elegant solution imo. They even kept the same amount of total keybinds but merging Kamaitachi with Bunshin right away, rather than only getting to that 2 patches later. Having option between melee and gap-closer also enforces flexibility.
Did the job design team get a new member or something?

As for NIN's damage, it seems more like a side-grade for now, so might still need buffs later, but it should be back to an enjoyable state gameplay-wise at least.

The only other thing I would love to make it better, would be turning Raijus into ogcds, but that is obviously subjective and dependent on whether or not you miss NIN being more busy with weaves rather than gcds.

I have such a hard time taking the people who complained about it before seriously.
If you died it wasn't because of Raiju...
And it requires melee regardless there is no difference in effect other than making for more weapn skills spam and now you don't have two charges per Raiton so you can't get one in then move out and just charge back in again with a single Raiton cast.
I've done all of the EW content countless times on NIN and I had absolutely zero issues it rly comes across as a totally imagined problem imho.

Ten Chi Jin is the actual problem in this regard, even moreso with random mechanics and people running into you and dropping AoE on your head.
Even just something like micro steps are infuriating with it, if I haven't played NIN in a while and go back I need to adjust and basically remember to always take my fingers completely off WASD and the mouse because if I don't even if I feel like I don't make a click it's like my character takes a micro step that can't even be seen and cancels it...
If people wanna complain about that stuff in regards to mobility, animation locks and being locked in place then Ten Chi Jin is the actual problem, Raiju wasn't an actual problem.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Ten Chi Jin is the actual problem in this regard, even moreso with random mechanics and people running into you and dropping AoE on your head.

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Everything is scripted in this game, so you can always plan how to use TCJ safely in advance, especially since its ranged. Talking about "random" mechanics honestly makes you sound kinda inexperienced, which would explain why you didn't see the problem with Raiju and don't understand why regular melee attack is better than a gap-closer in that regard. Even something like e6 normal would be an issue with the "garuda bacon strip" mechanic - many a DRG cried for that one due to jumps and even tanks had to hold their dashes. With six nearly unmovable Raijus it would've been a nightmare and that's just one mechanic from the top of my head. I remember there were several issues of staying at max-melee in the last tier as well.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I've done all of the EW content countless times on NIN and I had absolutely zero issues it rly comes across as a totally imagined problem imho.

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Are you sure you have actually done it all on NIN? Because there's bind mechanics in the first trial(normal and EX) which align with the 60 second burst and make it impossible to use gap-closers.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Everything is scripted in this game, so you can always plan how to use TCJ safely in advance, especially since its ranged. Talking about "random" mechanics honestly makes you sound kinda inexperienced, which would explain why you didn't see the problem with Raiju and don't understand why regular melee attack is better than a gap-closer in that regard. Even something like e6 normal would be an issue with the "garuda bacon strip" mechanic - many a DRG cried for that one due to jumps and even tanks had to hold their dashes. With six nearly unmovable Raijus it would've been a nightmare and that's just one mechanic from the top of my head. I remember there were several issues of staying at max-melee in the last tier as well.



Are you sure you have actually done it all on NIN? Because there's bind mechanics in the first trial(normal and EX) which align with the 60 second burst and make it impossible to use gap-closers.

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Yes I've done it and no I had no issues with it and yes I do the 60 sec burst windows just fine.
Garuda wouldn't be a problem your character doesn't charge forward all the way you can still hit them on the outer edge of their hitbox.
You'd have to have some weird Tank shenanigans going on where the Tank insisted on pulling Garuda in some really weird spot for it to be a problem.
I am fairly sure I got it in roulettes before on NIN but I am not 110% sure.
But I do know for a fact that I had no issues with it in EW first EX trial included.

And yes I am aware that the game has scripted boss fights but that doesn't mean that there is no randomness involved and that other players have no effect on you.
If I activate Ten Chi Jin and someone decided to run at me and drop AoE under me please explain to me what I am supposed to do about that?
If you think that makes me sound inexperienced when I call it '' random '' then you're being incredibly pedantic.
There's a lot of situations where you have to move either close to or after Ten Chi Jin, I don't think NIN should be punished that super hard for it.

I don't think that regular melee attacks so to speak are inherently better than ones with gap-closers it's a matter of context, however I do think that it worked really well as a re-engage on NIN and made for a very fluid feeling in and out that actually lined up.
Before you could use a Raiju charge, go out and then charge back in again now you can't and have to rely on Shukuchi which is pretty clunky to use imo.
There's really not much of a difference now except that it makes for more 1 2 3 spam and a more clunky re-engage.

Yes Raiju is a 1 spam.
But it's still different than your 1 2 3 weapon skills and a change in pace and variety.
I wouldn't have a problem with this either if they kept it as 2 stacks of Raiju, my primary issue is that it's 1 stack ( and also weapon skills still break it ).

Not really sure if you actually think that Ten Chi Jin is well designed either or if you're only defending it for the sake of disagreeing with me.
It becomes especially silly to me when you take such issue with Raiju.

It feels like this was a rushed fixed, and a more long term solution may happen in 6.1. The situation is all a bit weird to do a mini overhaul so soon on the newest introduced skills.

Potentially now though you could delete one raiju or the other, making room for the return of either assassinate or shadow fang. I'd keep the gap closer version, ditch fleeting.

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Originally Posted by Cyrexs

Do you know for sure they go away after using it now? Have you used it yet? Trying t figure this out

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I tested it. Raiju ready goes away with any weaponskill or a Raiju.

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Originally Posted by YourBoii

Love the bunshin change but the raiju change almost feels worst to me. It does solve the attacking while binding and max melee issues but I liked the animation of them back to back. My main issue was it breaking from weapon skills which many felt would also solve that issue and keep the cool animations but now that you dont have 2 to do forked then fleeting it feels less cool to me and underwhelming after doing it on a target dummy, and now I have a extra button to use for only said issue, and it still breaks on another weap skill use but its only one GCD now lost instead.....I dont know, I'll take it to an instance and see how it feels on a boss later.

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You have to back off, so you cast Raitons. When it's safe to move back in, you save time by using Forked Raiju to close the gap.
Personally,I'll be using Fleeting 90% of the time, and a shifted Raiju key for Forked when I need the occasional gap closer.
Unfortunately, we lost one of two 400 potency Raijus after each Raiton, and the increase to 560p doesn't fully compensate for that loss.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Garuda wouldn't be a problem your character doesn't charge forward all the way you can still hit them on the outer edge of their hitbox.

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Edge of the hitbox is often still way too close. If you use Forked Raiju at max melee, it will move you and when you need to stay at max melee to live or not kill other members of your party (which is a case in numerous savage mechanics) then you won't be able to use it - now you can just use Fleeting instead. I can also tell you - you did not gap close and live on Garuda. "Edge of the hitbox" here is still very much in the death zone and I well remember both dying there on GNB gap closer and hearing DRGs bemoan this mechanic, esp with bad pf strats forcing melees on Garuda party in savage.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I don't think that regular melee attacks so to speak are inherently better than ones with gap-closers it's a matter of context, however I do think that it worked really well as a re-engage on NIN and made for a very fluid feeling in and out that actually lined up.

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Of course they're not inherently better without context - which is why I said "in this regard". When you need to move, Forked will indeed be better, but that's the thing - you can still gap close with Forked, you just get a choice now instead of multiple back-to-back gap closers being forced on you.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Yes Raiju is a 1 spam. But it's still different than your 1 2 3 weapon skills and a change in pace and variety. I wouldn't have a problem with this either if they kept it as 2 stacks of Raiju, my primary issue is that it's 1 stack (and also weapon skills still break it ).

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Matter of taste I suppose. I highly prefer to mix those 1234s with a couple 5s instead of just mashing 5 continuously. I find that to be more varied of the two. Also weaponskills breaking it is a non-issue now, because you can just use Fleeting same as a melee skill. It even eats a Bunshin stack.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Not really sure if you actually think that Ten Chi Jin is well designed either or if you're only defending it for the sake of disagreeing with me.

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I don't see TCJ as an issue as much as a job mechanic to work around. The root is something I have to keep in mind, but the range makes the "temporary turret mode" useful in many situations as well. While it limits your movement, you can choose the spot you execute it at for yourself and it also doesn't take as long as 6 nearly back-to-back gap closers so it's far more flexible, it just requires a plan.

I can see how it may be frustrating in the chaos of Duty Finder, but I simply tend to not mind dps loses in casual content as I might as well lose far more dps due to getting deleted by a stray TB or any other reason. In EX/Savage/Ultimate, people shouldn't usually "randomly" run into you with a splash AoE, even in PF, making it a non-issue.

The only thing about TCJ is that they could maybe add a 0.5-1sec delay before it can be broken accidentally, because sometimes latency may cause the game to occasionally register you as still moving if you stopped right before executing the skill.

All they had to do was not make them you leave max melee, now they ruined everything.