Why was FFXI so great?

Where is this, where everyone is getting the idea that everything in Final Fantasy XIV is simply being handed to the players on a silver platter?

Artifact armor was never a great challenge in XI, and put bluntly, most of it was thoroughly mediocre, if not utterly useless - complaining about it being easy in XIV is to go beyond the relatively noncommittal term "Double standards", and vault squarely into the realm of hypocrisy.

The drop rates on equipment in the Vale and Cutter's Cry are a source of outcry, the rate on weapons for Ifrit and Moogle have always been complained about, and getting particularly good double or triple bonded armor is no cheap or easy task.

Just what exactly is being handed to the playerbase without any effort here? Can that question be answered definitively by someone?

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Yep, not having everything handed to you in 10 minutes is your idea of masochism. You should probably look up the word.

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http://kotaku.com/5036371/final-fant...-hours-to-beat

Took me whole day to just be able to ride a Chocobo and i could only rent one in those days. Same for samurai quest, it took a LVL 75 with for a whole day and lots of items to avoid detection to complete that stupid quest.
HNM with ridiculous spwan rates that forces you to camp for days on end.

Should i keep going?

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Originally Posted by Onidemon

http://kotaku.com/5036371/final-fant...-hours-to-beat

Took me whole day to just be able to ride a Chocobo and i could only rent one in those days. Same for samurai quest, it took a LVL 75 with for a whole day and lots of items to avoid detection to complete that stupid quest.
HNM with ridiculous spwan rates that forces you to camp for days on end.

Should i keep going? Didn't i tell you in the past that if you have no idea of what you are talking about, it's better to say nothing?

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I actually liked FFXI's pace and difficulty level. I have no problem with an NM that takes 18 hours to beat or a quest that takes a whole day to finish. They're things you do on a weekend gaming binge or in the case of a quest you do it a little at a time.

Many different aspects of FFXI kept me interested enough that I didn't feel like just falling asleep during the tedious parts. Everything puts me to sleep in XIV. It's like taking half a bottle of ambien and downing a quart of rum for me. I play full zombie mode (when I can fire up enough neurons to play, since my brain tends to go dead at the thought).

But it all comes down to personal preference. I mean one person's idea of masochism is different to another's. Right now, FFXIV is my idea of masochism, though it has drastically improved. I stick around because I know it's going to get better, not because it's fun to play right now.

I loved FFXI because:
1. I could be a kitty! I'm a girl irl, I also like cats. Tail & ears on a female frame is cute. =p
2. The community... I started @ PS2 release and people were really nice & helpful. I still remember that scary run to Jeuno as a low level player. I know there certainly were some major a-holes, but I have more fond memories of kind strangers & friends then memories of the jerks.
Also, despite how long it took to get some piece of gear from dynamis or limbus or whatever... I loved going because of the other players. They were just really fun to be around.
3. Content!
The stories were so great! My fave was Chains of Promathia.... and that was maybe the hardest expansion? I'm sure that is debatable. It was a wonderful challenge to have to be level capped after being used to some job at 75. Very humbling, sometimes frustrating but ... SO FUN!

Stuff that sucked:
1. losing a level after getting KO one to many times XD. I remember people getting REALLY MAD when they would die.
2. looking for party for hours ... even starting your own didn't always do the trick + it taking a few months to level up one job
3. the HNM's... that would spawn once every 48 hours or 24 hours or once a week... @_@ I remember once getting scolded for going to work because my ls needed me @ the NM. Total wtf moment lol.

Around the time of Abyssea:
They upped the cap from 75 to 99... they removed the lvl cap off of uhm... everything I think? Those sweet little parties of 6 ballooned into... I don't even know... peoples focus shifted to getting to 99 ASAP and getting all the leetest gear ASAP. For me that shift in mentality destroyed what I had loved initially about the game and I quit. It just was not fun any longer.

If only FFXIV could just find the middle ground, I would be thrilled.

I don't want stuff to take quite as long as in the heyday of ffxi, but ... gah something is just MISSING from FFXIV! It seems to promote the hurry up and get to end-game asap mentality.
I still like to enjoy "begin game" & "middle game" before shifting all focus to "end game". Sadly there really isn't much interesting content for begin & middle. :(

So right now my greatest joy in ffxiv is helping others with.. AF or some random nm fight or crafting & chatting with people in my social ls. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Tigercub

I actually liked FFXI's pace and difficulty level. I have no problem with an NM that takes 18 hours to beat or a quest that takes a whole day to finish. They're things you do on a weekend gaming binge or in the case of a quest you do it a little at a time.

Many different aspects of FFXI kept me interested enough that I didn't feel like just falling asleep during the tedious parts. Everything puts me to sleep in XIV. It's like taking half a bottle of ambien and downing a quart of rum for me. I play full zombie mode (when I can fire up enough neurons to play, since my brain tends to go dead at the thought).

But it all comes down to personal preference. I mean one person's idea of masochism is different to another's. Right now, FFXIV is my idea of masochism, though it has drastically improved. I stick around because I know it's going to get better, not because it's fun to play right now.

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No insult intended but if you have nothing against 18h to beat a boss then you prove my point of XI being for masochists or you may just be a no life gamer cuz let's be honest here, if you got 18h straight to dedicate to a game, then my friend you have a problem.

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Originally Posted by Onidemon

No insult intended but if you have nothing against 18h to beat a boss then you prove my point of XI being for masochists or you may just be a no life gamer cuz let's be honest here, if you got 18h straight to dedicate to a game, then my friend you have a problem.

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Well first, nobody ever said you have to do that fight, and most people didn't. Second, we've already established that our opinions on what is masochistic are different. Third, I do very occasionally have that much time to spend on a game. It's not something I'd ever do regularly. I work 60 to 70 hours a week but that doesn't stop me from enjoying the odd binge. But really, nice assumption, I'm sure you think I live in my parents' basement, too.

I'm not even sure why you think it's a problem that someone would spend a single free day in a month playing a game for long hours when we have kids basically being raised by their Xbox and people spending more time in WoW than reality.

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Originally Posted by Onidemon

No insult intended but if you have nothing against 18h to beat a boss then you prove my point of XI being for masochists or you may just be a no life gamer cuz let's be honest here, if you got 18h straight to dedicate to a game, then my friend you have a problem.

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You could spin that around and apply the same principle to WoW's raids, too. World Firsts, Realm Firsts they all wipe over and over on new content until they actually finish it. (Test Servers kind of ruin this but still) The ones that actually care about being the first to do things of course. This game probably has the same type of people.

Garuda will probably be the same way. You'll have people that will keep trying and trying until they beat it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not refuting that XI didn't have a masochistic undertone but you can apply your example to any game really. There will always be the niche of players who like to brag about being the best/was the first to do it/better than you mentality/dude you didn't even do that content your opinion is invalid/etc. In fact, just look at some of the sigs on this forum and that will tell you all you need to know.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

You could spin that around and apply the same principle to WoW's raids, too. World Firsts, Realm Firsts they all wipe over and over on new content until they actually finish it. (Test Servers kind of ruin this but still) The ones that actually care about being the first to do things of course. This game probably has the same type of people.

Garuda will probably be the same way. You'll have people that will keep trying and trying until they beat it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not refuting that XI didn't have a masochistic undertone but you can apply your example to any game really. There will always be the niche of players who like to brag about being the best/was the first to do it/better than you mentality/dude you didn't even do that content your opinion is invalid/etc. In fact, just look at some of the sigs on this forum and that will tell you all you need to know.

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That doesn't mean they don't have a problem. Also, in your example with WoW, that's a one time thing per major patch, and doesn't actually give anything besides an epeen title. Pandemonium Warden, by contrast, was an NM that dropped top tier gear and that could spawn whenever someone got to it--that means you could make it a semi-regular 18 hour timesink. Essentially, Blizzard used an ingame mechanism to acknowledge the epeen tendency of some, while SE designed a large part of their game to accommodate only obsessive players.

What really frustrated me was, at the time, some FFXI players were blaming the players for not trying a different strategy if it took so long--never mind the fact that it took them weeks, if not months to get to that point and they only had one shot, and had no way of knowing if that was the correct strat since they were the first to try it.

Let me emphasize that the majority of players I knew from my time in FFXI were great people and I still keep in touch with a few on facebook, but some players refuse to see any wrong in the game or acknowledge that there's any way to do something besides the FFXI way. You're seeing a good portion of them on this forum, and in this thread.

The Game felt like you had to accoplish something. The time you spent tryign to get to 75 or finishing a quest (rank, Tower, or to get to a Boss) was worth something. The gear in the game was worth obtaining, trying to farm 4mil for you body armor, or do dynamis/lymbis bi-weekly for items to get that awesome pices of armor. It was a little harder for the casual gamer (say a couple hours a day max) to get some of the tings done.. I know toward the end of my playing it was hard for me to lvl or get a fight that i needed done becuase i was not on during peak times due to work or school. then with WoG expansion things started going down for me.. i barely scratched the surface becuase i couldn;t get on , and i would build up my ribbons and then I would have to start over do to lack of playing.. and that got frustrating. But i will tell you playing FFXI for 8 years, that the story made you care, the jobs were balanced and fun, the only thing that deturned from the Game play was PL... and jobist players, that thought you had to have a PLD, whm, RDM, and BLM X3 to do anything. Poor Drk knight.. And BST SUPER FUN!!!! (pre party lvling style).
Thats what made it fun (Great) for me..

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Originally Posted by OJtheLIONKing

Let me emphasize that the majority of players I knew from my time in FFXI were great people and I still keep in touch with a few on facebook, but some refuse to see any wrong in the game or acknowledge that there's any way to do something besides the FFXI way. You're seeing a good portion of them on this forum, and in this thread.

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That's because some people have different opinions to you. Most people on both sides of the argument are so sure they're right. Simple fact is we just have different views. I'm sorry that I enjoy the things which you don't, and vice versa. This is probably never going to be reconciled.

Also saying that you're OK with the way FFXI did things is not the same as saying 'there's no other way to do things'. And I'd appreciate it if you'd stop implying I have "a problem" -_-

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Originally Posted by OJtheLIONKing

That doesn't mean they don't have a problem. Also, in your example with WoW, that's a one time thing per major patch, and doesn't actually give anything besides an epeen title. Pandemonium Warden, by contrast, was an NM that dropped top tier gear and that could spawn whenever someone got to it--that means you could make it a semi-regular 18 hour timesink. Essentially, Blizzard used an ingame mechanism to acknowledge the epeen tendency of some, while SE designed a large part of their game to accommodate only obsessive players.

What really frustrated me was, at the time, some FFXI players were blaming the players for not trying a different strategy if it took so long--never mind the fact that it took them weeks, if not months to get to that point and they only had one shot, and had no way of knowing if that was the correct strat since they were the first to try it.

Let me emphasize that the majority of players I knew from my time in FFXI were great people and I still keep in touch with a few on facebook, but some players refuse to see any wrong in the game or acknowledge that there's any way to do something besides the FFXI way. You're seeing a good portion of them on this forum, and in this thread.

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Whats funny though is the top guilds in WoW actually get sponsors for killing whatever first. Usually computer related hardware companies.

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Originally Posted by Tigercub

That's because some people have different opinions to you. Most people on both sides of the argument are so sure they're right. Simple fact is we just have different views. I'm sorry that I enjoy the things which you don't, and vice versa. This is probably never going to be reconciled.

Also saying that you're OK with the way FFXI did things is not the same as saying 'there's no other way to do things'. And I'd appreciate it if you'd stop implying I have "a problem" -_-

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Hey, it's fine to have different opinions. People are entitled to think that FFXI did some things well that I disagree with, some of those friends I mentioned included.

There's a difference between that and some of the ridiculous worshipful posts I've seen on this forum that treat FFXI like it was a landmark in human history that changed the face of gaming. I think it was a good game, not the best game I've ever played, but good. The MMO community as a whole treats it as a footnote at best, most people don't even know it introduced the modern concept of the auction house. Only a fraction of former players think it was a great sea change for gaming.

And sorry, but no one should spend 18 hours in one sitting on a game. People have died in net cafes with less time spent than that. It's completely unacceptable for any game to design anything to take even a third of that time in one sitting. I'm not one to accuse people of having issues, but I will say that's not a healthy thing to do, without singling you out personally. If you do it and take offense, that's your business.

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Whats funny though is the top guilds in WoW actually get sponsors for killing whatever first. Usually computer related hardware companies.

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That's true, and kind of sad. But it's not really Blizzard's dev team itself putting ingame incentives for doing it, it's a third party business capitalizing on it. There's a difference.

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

That Final Fantasy XI must have been from the mirror universe. It certainly was not from this one.

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Drop rates on items in FFXI were almost always above 15%, closer to 30% with a decent amount of HNM drops. This is opposed to the 1-2% drop rate per chest in current dungeons in FFXIV. In FFXI if you did something (whether it be once a day or less often) it was very likely your LS would get a drop.

Maybe you're the one living in the mirror universe.

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Originally Posted by Isaaru

Drop rates on items in FFXI were almost always above 15%, closer to 30% with a decent amount of HNM drops. This is opposed to the 1-2% drop rate per chest in current dungeons in FFXIV. In FFXI if you did something (whether it be once a day or less often) it was very likely your LS would get a drop.

Maybe you're the one living in the mirror universe.

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In his defense.
I been trying to get my Koga Chainmail for 5 years. I quit before I got one. Just one example I can think of.

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Originally Posted by OJtheLIONKing

And sorry, but no one should spend 18 hours in one sitting on a game. People have died in net cafes with less time spent than that.

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I agree it's not a healthy thing to do often. But done very occasionally I do not think it's remotely unhealthy unless you're suffering from some pretty extreme health problems or have already neglected to drink anything for 2 days. Nobody has ever died from playing a video game for 18 hours in one sitting (or the population of the United States would have taken a sharp dive when Skyrim was released). It's not uncommon for me to pull hours like that at work, and I work in a hazardous environment and high temperatures. Healthy people don't just die after 18 hours of sitting down for most of the day.

And I have gamed for 18 hours before. Probably about three times in the last ten years. I don't think this constitutes having a problem. I don't think anyone should be told they have issues for having done it before.

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Originally Posted by Tigercub

I agree it's not a healthy thing to do often. But done very occasionally I do not think it's remotely unhealthy unless you're suffering from some pretty extreme health problems or have already neglected to drink anything for 2 days. Nobody has ever died from playing a video game for 18 hours in one sitting (or the population of the United States would have taken a sharp dive when Skyrim was released). It's not uncommon for me to pull hours like that at work, and I work in a hazardous environment and high temperatures. Healthy people don't just die after 18 hours of sitting down for most of the day.

And I have gamed for 18 hours before. Probably about three times in the last ten years. I don't think this constitutes having a problem.

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I've worked 18 hour days in very unhealthy conditions myself, and I'm not dead. But it's not a healthy thing to do, and certainly shouldn't be encouraged by basing game content around it. The thing about "once in a while" is that you already have to have been putting in pretty extensive hours in the game to even get to the point of fighting something like Pandemonium Warden.

I put in some long hours when Skyrim came out, but I knew my limits. When I noticed I was spending a while, I turned the game off and did something outside for a bit, or slept depending on the time of day. The difference is Skyrim doesn't have any bosses or content that requires 18 hours, or even 30 minutes, to clear by itself--instead it has many many many many many smaller things to do that add up to probably the most epic thing I've ever played. I think other games could learn from that example. You can clear everything in Skyrim with no more than 15-20 minutes a night...probably over ten years, but the point is it doesn't require long hours.

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Originally Posted by Andrien

In his defense.
I been trying to get my Koga Chainmail for 5 years. I quit before I got one. Just one example I can think of.

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Dang, and I thought that guy that did Salvage for almost a year before getting his 35 body was unlucky.

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Originally Posted by Isaaru

Drop rates on items in FFXI were almost always above 15%, closer to 30% with a decent amount of HNM drops. This is opposed to the 1-2% drop rate per chest in current dungeons in FFXIV. In FFXI if you did something (whether it be once a day or less often) it was very likely your LS would get a drop.

Maybe you're the one living in the mirror universe.

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Seriously?

o.o

Seriously.



http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Nidhogg

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/King_Behemoth

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Aspidochelone

^ Minimum 72 hours between pops. One pop per server.



http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Proto-Omega

^ Minimum 144 hours to pop, if you farmed all four chips in one day with an LS of decent size, and then the 72 hour wait before you can re-enter Apollyon.


http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Proto-Ultima

Minimum 216 hours to pop, if you farmed all three first-tier chips in one day, then the 72 hour wait to farm the tier two chips, then the 72 hour wait to farm the actual NM.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Dynamis

Needs no explanation.


http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Salvage

Requires explanation simply by virtue of how ridiculous it was.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Citadel_Chelonian

Maximum one per day, two if you did not go the day before, which is, really, one per day. Also required 1,500 Assault points, which necessitated usage of two Assault tags, which necessitated not farming Nyzul. Or, if you were really good, one assault tag, which still means not farming Nyzul, because you only got one per day. Yay!

3.1% drop rate, same as what you're complaining about in XIV, only guess what? You can only go once per day, as opposed to however many you like.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Skirmish_Pephredo

Same damn thing, except it was not even guaranteed to pop. My LS was 2/144 attempts, he popped on seven of those 144 runs.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Qiqirn_Astrologer

Maximum two per run, once per day. 6.7%.

Going for any of these Salvage NMs meant not going for the others listed.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Sarameya

Required farming several tens of thousands of zeni to pop, which required either (A. Coordinated LS effort, or (B. if you were trying to get one for your own, to get an item, turning in at maximum 1,500 Zeni once per game day (every one hour). You would be fortunate to complete one a week, rounding people up to kill it. Drop rate ~13%.


I could go on.

You do need some limit to how fast you can do things...think about it. If everything is so easy and quick to get...everyone will be standing around complaining about nothing to do.

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Originally Posted by Jokerz

You do need some limit to how fast you can do things...think about it. If everything is so easy and quick to get...everyone will be standing around complaining about nothing to do.

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Isn't that kinda what's going on now with ffxiv? >_>
A friend of mine today /tell me "I might quit until 2.0 ... nothing to do" :(


To stay on topic of the OP's question:
Another thing I loved about FFXI was
LINKSHELL MESSAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ; ;

Oh and Summoner job. That one was my favorite before it was cool to be one... if it ever was cool to be one? lol
And it was HARD.. had to have max fame in the cities before you could even take a crack at the avatars... even then (when I was doing it) it was hard to get help. I ended up doing the mini fights and went totally broke ; ; BUT I HAD ALL MY SUMMONS! So while I was gil-less... I was giddy to be able to summon them!

Although there are lots of replies, I'm still going to throw my own into the mix.

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Why was FFXI 'so good'?

Content

I'm not going to lie. There were plenty of MMO's before FFXI, and successful ones at that. But what really pulled people into this one in particular? ... The Final Fantasy franchise. With so many games, and such a huge history, FFXI pulled many people into what would be their 'first' MMO. What makes a FF MMO different from other lore-based MMO's is the fact that Final Fantasy always has certain elements (such as chocobos, elements, avatars), but will not explore the same world twice (unless you are playing a sequel, and X-2 was not released until after XI came out). Therefore, you could play each new FF and 'fall in love with it' all over again, just as many people 'fell in love' with FFXI.

People often complain about the time sink compared with other MMO's. Yes, FFXI took SO MUCH TIME to level... but those 'grizzled veterans' coming to the MMO world from the Final Fantasy franchise were used to this. It took a long time to 'grind' your way up to get the best items and weapons in previous games... not a long time compared to the years you could easily log in an MMO, but FF players were a bit more tolerant of this type of time sink than others.

Timing

FFXI came out when MMO's were really starting to improve. There was always the iconic Everquest, but WoW would not come out for quite some time after the NA release of FFXI. By the time WoW did come out, so many people were already hooked on FFXI and absorbed into its world that they did not even bother with WoW, and if they did, they would usually come back disappointed. This is why you might notice a particularly large amount of hostility toward WoW in general with FFXI and FFXIV. Many FFXI and FFXIV player will bash WoW because it's 'so easy' (and it is in comparison), but the real reason you'll find it in this community over others is because the two were released at about the same time, and were each other's 'competition'.

Community

The time sink of FFXI really gave it this extra element of community that you would be hard pressed to find in other MMO's. There were NM's you would literally have to wait days for. Even the 'common' NM's would not pop for at least two hours, and there was no guarantee that it would pop or drop for you. Daily NM's could pop between 21-24 hours after they died, and only in 30 minute intervals between the start of the window and end of the window. Some NM's wouldn't pop for weeks. This left a lot of time to chat. You really got to 'know' your community. The theft of an item, or the betrayal of a friend, meant so much more in FFXI than any other MMO I've ever been a part of.

The time it took to level also allowed you to 'get to know' your party members. Because leveling wasn't easy for everyone, you got to know who was good and who was bad. The entire server 'knew' of each other. Some were famous while others were infamous. Applying to a linkshell required more than just skill -- it required attitude evaluation as well. When entering something like Dynamis (an instance that took 3+ hours to complete, IF you could complete it), you would want to make sure you liked the people you went with.

Identity

As a result of how hard it was to level, you really had to commit to your job. You had to spend weeks and weeks leveling it to 75, doing all of your job quests, and obtaining gear for it to be useful. Therefore, people got to KNOW you as that job. You weren't just your name. You were your name AND your job. I had three jobs at 75 -- Summoner, White Mage, and Black Mage. To this day, all of my FFXI friends know that my favorite job was and will always be summoner. In other games, it is easier to level. Having jobs at a cap level is not such a great accomplishment. Because the servers in FFXI were pretty small, you were more likely to recognize anyone you came across. Reputations developed... both good ones and bad ones. You knew who was likely to help out and who was a jerk.

Storylines

The 'story' of any FF game has always been SE's forte. The storylines took a long time to complete, and involved intricate lessons that you can really only appreciate if you did them. Each expansion was like a new FF in a familiar world. The content never left you 'high and dry'. There was literally ALWAYS something you could be doing.

Gear

One thing about FFXI that was very different from other MMO's is how your gear would remain at about the same quality no matter how long you took a break. The reason for this is because gear mattered a lot and so you would switch gear for each situation. Black Mages would switch to elemental staves depending on the spell, for instance. People would sometimes switch gear just to use a weapon skill. As a summoner, I would switch gear when using an avatar's ability. You switched gear a LOT, and so each piece of gear never became 'obsolete'; it was merely another option that you could be using. So, even if I took a break and came back years later, my gear was still great... And yet, despite this, there was always gear every person wanted to get and had to work to obtain. Very few people had everything they could possibly want.

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Why did Abyssea 'ruin' FFXI?

Level Cap

The level cap increase that came along with abyssea and other DLC brought about a huge flux in gameplay. After the NA release, the level cap was raised to 75 and left there for four expansions. Every single 'endgame' event was synced to this level cap, including content from all previous expansions. This is why content from the original expansion would be comparable to an expansion that came out many years later... because, unlike other MMO's, the level cap DID NOT change.

This change in level cap also more or less turned the gear you had spent years acquiring into garbage. All new gear was released, and somehow FFXI was thrown into the same category as other MMO's... with each level increase, or new content available, your previous gear became less and less likely to be used. To many players (such as myself) that could come back to the comforting thought that your gear would never be outdated, this ruined our desire to play the game. The FFXI we 'knew and loved' was torn apart by the level increase...

Not to mention, Abyssea itself more or less broke the game. The amount of experience points you received in Abyssea per time spent was staggering and unlike anything seen before. Obviously, they needed to do this to keep the game going (remember, it is older than WoW!), but more or less made it a different game. All endgame content was made easier so you could do it with less people (because there weren't as many people around). I, like many others, simply lost interest.

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In conclusion, I'll tell you what I see when I look back on FFXI. I see it with rose-tinted glasses and a nostalgic outlook. I will often sit around with my current FFXIV guild (all people I knew from FFXI...) and joke about how hard FFXI was, and all the ridiculous stories we have as a result. People would fall asleep waiting for monsters to pop, and somehow mysteriously not get mauled. Other fights were so hard (literally took days to master) that they were constantly imprinted in everyone's memory.

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Originally Posted by Jokerz

You do need some limit to how fast you can do things...think about it. If everything is so easy and quick to get...everyone will be standing around complaining about nothing to do.

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You can see the grim future my Son. PLer's will harken the death of this game save for those few who want to raid endlessly until the dark times come and the sun goes dark with age.

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You can see the grim future my Son. PLer's will harken the death of this game save for those few who want to raid endlessly until the dark times come and the sun goes dark with age.

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Raid endlessly til the dark times come?

From the person longing for XI? o___________________________O

This is precisely why the official forums are lambasted in polite Ul'Dahn society. The capacity for self-delusion amongst some posters here is utterly indefatigable.

Besides, hasn't Yoshi P already said that the method we use for PL at the moment is going away at or before 2.0? o______O

Personally, FFXI seemed like a way of life for me.

No matter what other MMO I played, FFXI was the MMO I always returned to, because:

-It felt more like home, you always wanted to come back to it, after a hard day of adventuring you could just chill in your mog house and chat away with your LS, the soothing music never got old.
-Everyone you connected with, LS or otherwise, seemed like it had purpose. Those who shared hardships and joy with you, would always remember you and vice versa.
-Everything was challenging, and frustratingly so. But the rewards were also enormous, and you felt a great sense of satisifaction.
-The Music; Yes FFXIV has great music too, but take the above points, add the music from FFXI... and you are instantly brought back to the memories of hardship, relaxation, joy, excitement, frustration and the great people you partied with. It brought out the best in all of us.
-Playing FFXI, you didn't feel detached from the character you were playing. No no, somehow you always felt "in the game" as opposed to "playing the game". Everything you did felt like a true reflection of yourself.

And those are my two cents =) Thanks for giving me the opportunity to have these awesome memories re-surface ZanarkandAbes.
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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

Raid endlessly til the dark times come?


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But this is the issue. This is what people will do until they get tired of the game. One thing you didn't really point out when pointing out all those endgame scenarios was how many of them had a process to them where you had to accomplish something first. Whether it be farming for a pop item or putting a set together to obtain one unique item. True FFXI did impose some artificial limits(but they did try to disguise them using lore) and FFXI did have it's fair share of casual events that still offered up decent options.

FFXI's endgame was different from other mmo's because of a horizontal endgame where there was no "1337" set. Top of the line gear was awesome to have, but there was content that was more casual friendly with gear that would allow even a casual player to hold their own.

However I seriously doubt we are anywhere near endgame scenarios with the current content, so really this whole discussion is kinda moot...

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But this is the issue. This is what people will do until they get tired of the game. One thing you didn't really point out when pointing out all those endgame scenarios was how many of them had a process to them where you had to accomplish something first. Whether it be farming for a pop item or putting a set together to obtain one unique item. True FFXI did impose some artificial limits(but they did try to disguise them using lore) and FFXI did have it's fair share of casual events that still offered up decent options.

FFXI's endgame was different from other mmo's because of a horizontal endgame where there was no "1337" set. Top of the line gear was awesome to have, but there was content that was more casual friendly with gear that would allow even a casual player to hold their own.

However I seriously doubt we are anywhere near endgame scenarios with the current content, so really this whole discussion is kinda moot...

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It really isn't moot, though, sir, because the developers are watching, and I am deathly afraid that they will take XIV in the direction of XI.

About Abyssesa

However a lot of people like myself hated the sidegrade nature of FFXI doing sky for 5 years ring a bell. So when abyssea did come out it was like a breath of fresh air, probably the greatest thing to happen to FFXI, most people who currently still play FFXI agree on this. Finally we got some upgrades and a new level cap to level up our jobs to keep us busy.

Its the people who quit because their gear wasn't the best anymore are the ones that kept bashing abyssea. Most people who still play FFXI really enjoyed it.

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

It really isn't moot, though, sir, because the developers are watching, and I am deathly afraid that they will take XIV in the direction of XI.

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I'm actually with you I don't want this game to turn out like FFXI either. There was a lot of things FFXI could have done better but some things FFXI did do was right and should be considered.

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One thing you didn't really point out when pointing out all those endgame scenarios was how many of them had a process to them where you had to accomplish something first.

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Just noticed this part.

Pray tell, what process was that? The process of getting to, and killing Dynamis Lord? Yes, that was a challenge, but it also required idiotic mechanics which became staple for most fights, known as CS.Stun. Stunlock is not great game design.

Horizontal development is also another way of saying "no improvement". Yoshi P said much the same in his reasoning behind implementing Jobs.

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I'm actually with you I don't want this game to turn out like FFXI either. There was a lot of things FFXI could have done better but some things FFXI did do was right and should be considered.

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I concur with that for sure. I'm just worried that so many of these threads idolize FFXI in a way that both confuses and worries me.

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However a lot of people like myself hated the sidegrade nature of FFXI doing sky for 5 years ring a bell. So when abyssea did come out it was like a breath of fresh air, probably the greatest thing to happen to FFXI, most people who currently still play FFXI agree on this. Finally we got some upgrades and a new level cap to level up our jobs to keep us busy.

Its the people who quit because their gear wasn't the best anymore are the ones that kept bashing abyssea. Most people who still play FFXI really enjoyed it.

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Indeed. If the Dev Team of Old had not returned to XI, my LS and I would still be attempting to balance time on XIV with time on XI. Abyssea was a thrill for our little linkshell, something we could work together on and achieve great successes and awesome rewards, if we just stuck with it. We could complete awesome gear sets for all of our members on multiple jobs, and not obtain only one Adaberk every couple of months with an Einherjar alliance.

This is what irritates me most when people complain about Abyssea. Abyssea enabled the average player without a massive linkshell to obtain awesome rewards, if they just worked hard and stuck with it. We did. We benefited. Anyone could do the same, and that is the entire point. Anyone could.

Hard work, persistence, and due rewards for both, in a system where anyone could join, as Abyssea enabled a variety of strategies with virtually any job combination. We had PLDs. We had BSTs. We had SMNs. Sometimes, we'd BLM burn just to cackle at the sheer nuking power. Sometimes, we'd go with three or four DRKs, just to see the chaos. We'd obtain "tokens" AKA totems/kupo charms for upgrading our individual armors, and be able to see steady progress as we worked towards our goals, and eventually completed them.

The posters who claim to long for a system that rewards hard work and perseverance, with tangible rewards for their time, and then proceed to decry Abyssea, are astonishing to me on a fundamental level. What they claim to want, they instead denigrate and demonize, and have not the capacity to see it, even as it is typed out in front of them! ; ;

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

It really isn't moot, though, sir, because the developers are watching, and I am deathly afraid that they will take XIV in the direction of XI.

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And what's wrong with the direction? Yes, XI had a lot of issues, but its style of progression and unique "side grade" gear kept the game a lot more interesting than most current (Including XIV) MMO's. XIV is, and should be, a spiritual sequel of sorts to XI. As such, it should take the core concepts and ideas from XI, improve upon them, and create a similar, enhanced product.

The reason XI players are so defensive on these boards is because most MMO's have begun to take a different path from the old EQ, UO, and XI days of past in favor of a more 'casual' (This is not a derogatory term) and perhaps 'solo friendly' approach, and XIV, being a spiritual sequel of sorts, is the closest thing they have to game in that older style. It's understandable as to why they get upset easily when others want this game to go in a direction far away from it's predecessor.

But I got side tracked. What was it about XI's style that you didn't like? Because, note that as a sequel, it's expected that they fix the bad and keep the good of the previous game. It's more than possible to make an XI style game more accessible with less time sinks.

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But I got side tracked. What was it about XI's style that you didn't like? Because, note that as a sequel, it's expected that they fix the bad and keep the good of the previous game. It more than possible to make an XI style game more accessible with less time sinks.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-FFXI-2/page12

As an answer, please hop over to this thread, and read my posts at #113, #114, #117, #118, and #124. I would copy them all over to here, but I am not sure if that would violate a spam rule or something. o.x Also, see my post at #152 here.

Eagleheart let me break it down for you.

FFXI was not for those who couldn't grasp the concept of being part of a whole. The game was designed from the ground up from the leveling to the end game to be beyond challenging and difficult. Almost to the point of being impossible without constant help.

Which was the point.

You did EVERYTHING with your LS. You fought together, you cried, together, and you shared the glorious warm honeid wine of victory together. The game was not going to let anyone progress without a solid LS behind them. Your LS in effect became the ever constant NPC cohorts that help you through your journey as you'll find in every FF title. All the negative things you mentioned about how FFXI was hard to get anything done in was not the case for me. Sure there were times when I had to shout. Lord knows how many PT's *I* made personally because I didn't want to wait in WG for 4 hours. Most of my time was spend efficiently since I had a great LS to fall back on.


FFXIV's will never reach that level of closeness in the LS groups. Because of the simple fact that we don't really *need* each other as much. Sure there are fights that having 7 people you can trust would be nice and the end game is better when shared with friends. There just isn't that bond anymore. That link of gratitude and faith you have in one another to come help you out after you have helped them become stronger themselves.

Also why you are noticing so many people putting pedestal is because WHAT THE FUG DO YOU EXPECT?! If SE had said, "Were making a new FF MMO with all new races in a new world with a new adventure." You wouldn't hear a peep out of me about how it scaled up to FFXI. That didn't happen.


First they ruined FFXI with Abbeysea for a cash grab. Something that undid 7 years of balance for the sake of letting new comers outpace and out gear those who worked for years on their characters. So they burned down our home. Then they made FFXIV featuring the SAME RACES from FFXI! Call them any name you'd like but it is still Humes, Elvaan, Mithra, Tarutaru, and Galka I see in game. When you export the races from a long running title into a new game of the same genre what the hell do you expect the fans to think? They wanted their subs from FFXI to come over to FFXIV. So they made the races familiar. Well that means that you're going to have thousands of subscribers, all with years of background with FFXI, scratching their heads as to why nothing is the same?

They wanted the fans but wanted to get more money so they have casualized the game. This was NOT the Fantasy we were a part of and I'm a bit peeve about how they handled the transition. I know I can't be the only one. So yes people are going to complain and point out the flaws in FFXIV and compare them to FFXI endlessly because this game is filled with people who played FFXI.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

Just noticed this part.

Pray tell, what process was that? The process of getting to, and killing Dynamis Lord? Yes, that was a challenge, but it also required idiotic mechanics which became staple for most fights, known as CS.Stun. Stunlock is not great game design.

Horizontal development is also another way of saying "no improvement". Yoshi P said much the same in his reasoning behind implementing Jobs.

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Salavage, salvage gear was incredibly impressive at it's time and required a tiered approach in acquiring them. In the event you had to know which path to take and which doors to open o get to the NM's you needed. Add to that the process of unlocking your jobs and how that would effect your run gave players a lot to figure out when it was released. Granted some items had a piss poor drop rate but the over all event was enjoyable to me.

Sea and ZNM's had tierd approaches to the NM's requiring you to fight a series of NM's before getting to the final big boss. You may ask what was the point of the smaller NM's? Well they often dropped decent gear as well so it wasn't for naught to fight these lower NM's.

Relics/emps/mythics were the most powerful weapons in the game and were understandable the most difficult/tedious to obtain. It wasn't as simple as running a raid and hoping to get the .001% drop for the best wep in the game, you had to obtain certain items and pretty much have the weapon created for you.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying these events were perfect and should be copy+paste.

I liked tiered events because you can't get it done in one night. Darklight is the best gear in FFXIV atm to the best of my knowledge well say I were to get lucky and get all the pieces I needed in one week, why the hell should I keep paying for and playing this game? A low percentage drop rate is one very weak way to limit a player base, one that you'll eventually get lucky and win. With a tiered approach I at least leave knowing I got something done, and I'll log on to continue working towards my goal.

I'd like to finish this post by saying I don't think everything should be like this. This game should/will be big enough to have a multitude of other options as well.

@ Zaaku

I'm going to write a long, long post to counter that.

Offhand, I'm just astonished, and can only say that every time you say FFXI had any semblance of balance, you erase your credibility further.

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-FFXI-2/page12

As an answer, please hop over to this thread, and read my posts at #113, #114, #117, #118, and #124. I would copy them all over to here, but I am not sure if that would violate a spam rule or something. o.x Also, see my post at #152 here.

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From what I read, it seemed that your major complaints were of balance (Not getting invites for playing certain jobs), time sinks (Waiting long term for a party), and pace (Fighting one mob at a time). Those are all valid complaints, but I don't feel that's what the core of XI consisted of. When I think of an "XI style game", I think of a game with large amounts of open world content, a focus on party as opposed to solo play, a long and very fleshed out story line (More so than most other MMO's), and a variety of "side grade" gear. Those are the core concepts I, and I believe most others think of when remembering XI. I would think it more than possible to create a game with those concepts without falling into the same traps XI did. Better class balance, better and faster party seeking implementation, and a game balanced around fighting multiple (But still challenging and unique) mobs are all possible in what I would consider an "XI style game", and that's what I truly would like to see from XIV. I doubt there are many here, even among the die hard XI fans, that really want to see XIV full of the pointless time sinks and balance issues that XI had, they just want a similarly styled experience with improvements to the formula, and really, is that so much to ask for a game that presented itself as a sequel to XI?

Tiered events were fine.

2% drop rates on items with a 24 hour lockout are not at all superior to 2% drop rates with a fifteen minute lockout. What we have here is romanticizing what was only tolerable because we had established friendships and linkshells.

That was the only reason it was tolerable.

What we've really got a problem with here is that people are not finding themselves, or making themselves, new communities, and I am sorry for that, but that is not a problem with the current game design. People shout for leve parties, they shout for darkhold parties, they shout for Ifrit parties, they shout for Moogle parties.

They shout for AF parties, they shout for EXP parties, they shout for Cutter's parties, and soon, they will shout for Garuda and Imperial Stronghold.

The game design is not the problem with most of the posters in these XI nostalgia threads. The problem is that the posters want their old friends and linkshells in this game, and they are not here, and so that emptiness is being attributed to faults within XIV.

It is only true to the extent that XIV crashed on initial release. The rest of it is simply players in denial.

To alleviate these problems, convince your old friends to wander over here, and cease tilting at windmills.

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

@ Zaaku

I'm going to write a long, long post to counter that.

Offhand, I'm just astonished, and can only say that every time you say FFXI had any semblance of balance, you erase your credibility further.

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I completed every single End Game event, (Save Limbus. SCREW Limbus) nearly every story line, and NM hunt on PUP.

Don't even begin to tell me how this game is unbalanced when I proved to every person I ever partied with that the *worst* perceived job in the game was actually one of the best :D