Ast cards 6.0 rework

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Six months on and this is still going?
We're not getting the old cards back, please get over it, for your own sake.

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Sorry Seraphor expect complaints until next media tour embargo is lifted and who knows how much better or god forbid worse things may become. This is what happens after changing a system people enjoyed for 4 yrs.

Enjoyed, or also, "only thing they knew".

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Originally Posted by Malmstrom

Enjoyed, or also, "only thing they knew".

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Why yes before 5.0 you would be correct but since we're what 7/8 months after launch people have put their taste in their prefered system by now so long as they tried it ofc (I mean anyone being critical of it should have else not as valued an opinion since going off looks/heresay).

Mm, I suppose that's fair. Time gets away from me sometimes when I try and think of how long something has been. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't a fair number of rose tinted glasses being worn.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Why yes before 5.0 you would be correct but since we're what 7/8 months after launch people have put their taste in their prefered system by now so long as they tried it ofc (I mean anyone being critical of it should have else not as valued an opinion since going off looks/heresay).

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I honestly don't mind waiting, all I want to hear is some feedback about hearing our complaints about the system and if they plan to change it or rework it in the coming future. That would give me hope to put up with this current mess for however long it takes.

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

I honestly don't mind waiting, all I want to hear is some feedback about hearing our complaints about the system and if they plan to change it or rework it in the coming future. That would give me hope to put up with this current mess for however long it takes.

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Hate to be the bearer of bad news then. Back in 5.05 or maybe it was 5.1, they did address the people who wanted the old system back and the complaints around the new one. Their answer then was essentially "we've heard the complaints, but there are people who like the new system and we don't want to upset them" ( you know, all 12 of them) despite the amount of people who prefer the older system far outweigh the people who prefer the new. Even the people I personally know now who still enjoy AST have all said they prefer the older one, they just play the current one because it has something to do, which the other 2 healers don't.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

despite the amount of people who prefer the older system far outweigh the people who prefer the new.

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Citation needed.

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Originally Posted by Malmstrom

Citation needed.

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Fflogs and the amount of complaints. Obviously I'd love to provide a survey, but until SE does one I can't do much there chief.

It logs people's opinions on card system?

Sorcery!

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Originally Posted by Malmstrom

It logs people's opinions on card system?

Sorcery!

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People's opinion on the class. Considering the amount of logs AST has despite it, by far,being the strongest healer certainly tells me people don't like something about it. And the vast amount of complaints I've seen both in game and on the forums are about AST's main gimmick, aka, the card system.

Well sure, why play AST when you can doze at your keyboard as a WHM for nearly the same results?

ZzzzZZZzZz

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Hate to be the bearer of bad news then. Back in 5.05 or maybe it was 5.1, they did address the people who wanted the old system back and the complaints around the new one. Their answer then was essentially "we've heard the complaints, but there are people who like the new system and we don't want to upset them" ( you know, all 12 of them) despite the amount of people who prefer the older system far outweigh the people who prefer the new. Even the people I personally know now who still enjoy AST have all said they prefer the older one, they just play the current one because it has something to do, which the other 2 healers don't.

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Makes me guess if they even look through the forums or just step up to the plate with a bat in attempts to just wing everything and see how it goes.

Y'all who are saying the "old system was better" only takes into account the fact that it was less clunky. The old card system was "Expand Balance or Bust (with Spear being acceptable)". Anyone who says otherwise is lying to themselves. There was no meaningful choice of cards, and, on top of this, so many of AST's lower level skills were dedicated to the card system that AST was awful to play below 52. This new system attempts to alleviate this problem by making every card the same, but the problems lie in every target needing manual placing instead of being AoE at base. Sleeve Draw just sucks without the ability to store cards. If they brought that back, or if cards were AoE in their base form, I don't think people would hate the cards so much.

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Originally Posted by inhaledcorn

The old card system was "Expand Balance or Bust (with Spear being acceptable)".

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As much as people like to keep beating a dead horse with this point, it really only affects those playing at the higher tiers. Stuff like speed-running fights. Beyond that, it's a nice bonus to have, but ultimately does not matter in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

As much as people like to keep beating a dead horse with this point, it really only affects those playing at the higher tiers. Stuff like speed-running fights. Beyond that, it's a nice bonus to have, but ultimately does not matter in the slightest.

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If by "higher tiers" you mean End Game content, that is essentially what the combat, jobs and systems of this game are made for. The PVE revolves around progression and optimization. Considering the massive boost you'd get to raid dps with the proper draws (10% or 5% extra damage for 30 seconds or 40 if using celestial opposition), and factoring in a lot of the raids would fail due to enrage timers being prevalent in most encounters I'd say AST RNG had a sizeable influence on whether a raid would succeed.


So they increased the potency of the buff (from 5 to 6%) , and halved its durarion. Then tried to paliate the effects of RNG with the seal system. Problem is, there is still RNG and now you fish for seals instead of fishing for Balance. The lows are still somewhat around even if they are less impactful overall (Considering you can still use divination if you have repeated seals, only the potency is lower.) and the highs are rather unimpactful.

Really, the thing its a system that doesn't feel good. You'd get a rush when you Expanded a Balance, or a Spear or even a Bole when big damage was comming.

Now it feels kind of underwhelming.

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Originally Posted by Malmstrom

Mm, I suppose that's fair. Time gets away from me sometimes when I try and think of how long something has been. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't a fair number of rose tinted glasses being worn.

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Speaking personally, I’ve been trying all expansion to enjoy AST as much as I have in the past. I’m even using it in TEA prog right now. I just can’t enjoy it, and it’s definitely not from a lack of trying.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

If by "higher tiers" you mean End Game content, that is essentially what the combat, jobs and systems of this game are made for. The PVE revolves around progression and optimization. Considering the massive boost you'd get to raid dps with the proper draws (10% or 5% extra damage for 30 seconds or 40 if using celestial opposition), and factoring in a lot of the raids would fail due to enrage timers being prevalent in most encounters I'd say AST RNG had a sizeable influence on whether a raid would succeed.

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Not really. If a group was hitting the enrages and needed that Balance to meet the check, either people are severely undergeared or aren't pulling their own weight. Progging is a different story though. We've haven't had an actual gear check since Gordias and look how 'well received' that tier was. Balance has always been the grand prize of the old card system. Fishing for balance only really matters at the highest levels of play aka. Speed running and World Prog race. It's a very nice bonus outside of that and is super satisfying to play. But now all we have is a system that is underwhelming as heck and feels horrible to play.

People can explain away devs' decision to make this new system by saying they didn't want so much "reliance on RNG" all you want, but the fact remains: fishing for (and getting random results) different seal cards is more RNG-reliant than the old card system ever was.

Another valid complaint about the current card system is that it makes the AST more or less effective depending on the makeup of the party. If your group happens to lack melee DPS, your contribution just got sliced. If you only have melee DPS, your contribution just got sliced.

You can't be surprised by fflogs. You can't be surprised that not many people want to play a job that requires a certain party composition to be at peak efficiency. (And also still, not many people want to play a job that requires 20 target switches per minute to operate at peak efficiency.)

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Originally Posted by Side-Eye

People can explain away devs' decision to make this new system by saying they didn't want so much "reliance on RNG" all you want, but the fact remains: fishing for (and getting random results) different seal cards is more RNG-reliant than the old card system ever was.

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That's a misrepresentation of what the actual problem was. The problem in previous expansion was that an AST could contibute a lot if it had good luck with draws, or very little if it had back luck. Now it contibutes a lot regardless of luck, just a tiny bit less if it's unlucky. In other words, the problem was the variability of rdps contribution depending on rng.

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Originally Posted by Side-Eye

Another valid complaint about the current card system is that it makes the AST more or less effective depending on the makeup of the party. If your group happens to lack melee DPS, your contribution just got sliced. If you only have melee DPS, your contribution just got sliced.

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It wasn't different in previous expansions though. Especially in HW when we had terrible balance and a high utility comp blew no utility comps out of the water. Actually, this is a problem for any job with high dps utility.

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Originally Posted by Side-Eye

You can't be surprised by fflogs. You can't be surprised that not many people want to play a job that requires a certain party composition to be at peak efficiency. (And also still, not many people want to play a job that requires 20 target switches per minute to operate at peak efficiency.)

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This here is the real problem. AST is just too busy and just marginally better than WHM in a full utility comp

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

That's a misrepresentation of what the actual problem was. The problem in previous expansion was that an AST could contibute a lot if it had good luck with draws, or very little if it had back luck. Now it contibutes a lot regardless of luck, just a tiny bit less if it's unlucky. In other words, the problem was the variability of rdps contribution depending on rng.

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That's anexaggeration, because AST, when well-played, would hold (and also enhance when possible) whichever card was going to help the party most for certain fights given its makeup, gear level, etc. There were so many times while doing roulettes when a bole was more useful than a balance would've been -- because if tank died, dps or healer was prob next and then what good was that little dmg+ buff? And if that dmg+ buff was the best card for the party, you'd likely have ample opportunity to stash one for when it was needed.

See, when you bemoan the old system's RNG reliance, you're neglecting to factor the tools we had to manipulate those cards and mitigate the randomness.

I also maintain that flexibility/adaptability was more potent than a set of cards which all do the same thing. And seriously: if the cards all do the same thing, lift the class restriction so anyone in the party can benefit ... it would at least get rid of one random aspect impacting the job's effectiveness.

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Originally Posted by Side-Eye

See, when you bemoan the old system's RNG reliance, you're neglecting to factor the tools we had to manipulate those cards and mitigate the randomness.

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I'm not. A bole in a dungeon just meant (maybe) 1 less gravity on a wall-to-wall pull to me. An Ewer or a Spire just meant royal road ->redraw->minor arcana, always, unless someone died right after using their refresh tools and there was no ranged dps in the party, which while theoretically possible, is so rare that's not even worth mentioning. I know how AST works, I've been playing it since the day it was released in HW. No matter how people say that you could "manipulate rng" or "use effectively all the cards" (false), at the end of the day good luck with the previous system directly translated to an obscene amount of rdps contribution and variability was high enough to make it a nightmare to balance.

If people like the rng aspect so much and are truly convinced that all cards were useful, they should ask for a card system where dps buffs do not compete with other situational utilities. As soon as you let rng dictate whether you draw a dps buff or another kind of utility, the former always wins and balance dies. And like it or not, the devs have stated several times that good balance is extremely important to them.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

If people like the rng aspect so much and are truly convinced that all cards were useful, they should ask for a card system where dps buffs do not compete with other situational utilities. As soon as you let rng dictate whether you draw a dps buff or another kind of utility, the former always wins and balance dies. And like it or not, the devs have stated several times that good balance is extremely important to them.

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Another poster and I have suggested before the idea of 2 Spreads: one that allows you to hold a utility card and another that allows you to hold a damage card. That way, Ewer and Bole stop competing for a Spread slot with Balance—and it allows you to hold and save them for a more opportune moment of use.

The new system is just really uninspired. The Seals exist purely as a way to give 4 of the cards a reason to exist. Because, otherwise, you could just reduce it to 2 cards—1 ranged and 1 melee. Different combinations of Seals don’t do really anything other than decrease the damage boost Divination gives, and Minor Arcana is as uninspired as the rest of the deck. They’re barely better than a regular arcana. And Sleeve Draw could just be outright deleted at this point. With how terribly cumbersome it is, the kit would be better off without it, imo.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Another poster and I have suggested before the idea of 2 Spreads: one that allows you to hold a utility card and another that allows you to hold a damage card. That way, Ewer and Bole stop competing for a Spread slot with Balance—and it allows you to hold and save them for a more opportune moment of use.

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That doesn't solve the problem at all. Balance would still compete with bole with the system you suggested when you draw or redraw, making that second spread a last resort when you don't get a dmg buff after you fished for it...but we already had a tool for that: minor arcana. And we both know that unless you draw an ewer exactly when you're oom because something went wrong or a bole when you realize at the last second that the tank forgot its cd before a tank buster (good luck with that), you'd just use minor arcana.

One thing they could do is keep divination as the only dmg up buff and repurpose all cards to be non-dps support utilities. Do realize, however, that the chance of having a system where dps buffs compete with other buffs is probably close to zero, for good reason.

Now I'm not saying the new system is not uninspired. But the previous system was a mess and had to be reworked.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

One thing they could do is keep divination as the only dmg up buff and repurpose all cards to be non-dps support utilities. Do realize, however, that the chance of having a system where dps buffs compete with other buffs is probably close to zero, for good reason.

Now I'm not saying the new system is not uninspired. But the previous system was a mess and had to be reworked.

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That's pretty much my thoughts on it. SE reslly cares about balance this time around and AST was begging to be fixed/standardized for a long time. It's not a perfect solution but, imo, better than the last 4 years.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

That doesn't solve the problem at all. Balance would still compete with bole with the system you suggested when you draw or redraw, making that second spread a last resort when you don't get a dmg buff after you fished for it...but we already had a tool for that: minor arcana. And we both know that unless you draw an ewer exactly when you're oom because something went wrong or a bole when you realize at the last second that the tank forgot its cd before a tank buster (good luck with that), you'd just use minor arcana.

One thing they could do is keep divination as the only dmg up buff and repurpose all cards to be non-dps support utilities. Do realize, however, that the chance of having a system where dps buffs compete with other buffs is probably close to zero, for good reason.

Now I'm not saying the new system is not uninspired. But the previous system was a mess and had to be reworked.

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This new system is worse than the old. There's no judgement in throwing cards on anyone. This system forces players to fish for a specific card for your highest DPS teammate and rinse and repeat until you get sleeve draw again while also fishing for seals. Trying to say this system as it stands is fine, is border line a joke. While it may have temporary solved the balance fishing, the cards, how it plays along with sleeve draw is worse of a mess than what it was 4 years ago. I've seen the outcry over it, it's upset more people than I want to count.

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

This new system is worse than the old.

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https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/01...g?v=1564765617

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Originally Posted by Malmstrom

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/01...g?v=1564765617

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Guess these are just also opinions huh?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...out-SE-and-Ast

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-expansion-pls

JP community are way more vocal about this than we are but I don't think you've noticed

That is exactly what opinions are, yes.

I also noted that one of the threads started off about fearing being overbuffed before you dragged your hate for the new system into it.

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Originally Posted by Malmstrom

That is exactly what opinions are, yes.

I also noted that one of the threads started off about fearing being overbuffed before you dragged your hate for the new system into it.

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Do you even play AST or do you just come here with a bad attitude toward people who express their discomfort with it

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

Do you even play AST or do you just come here with a bad attitude toward people who express their discomfort with it

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Leveled it to cap 4 times!

Is it really a bad attitude, or do you just perceive a different opinion as such?

I'm playing devil's advocate (albeit mildly trollishly) more than anything. I'm largely neutral about it either way.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

That's pretty much my thoughts on it. SE reslly cares about balance this time around and AST was begging to be fixed/standardized for a long time. It's not a perfect solution but, imo, better than the last 4 years.

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Balance at the expensive of gameplay it looks like. Warrior, Dark Knight, every healer and Monk are all complaining about how dull and uninspired either some or all aspects of their jobs are. And balance is only arguably better now. 5.0 was some of the worst decisions we've seen in years.

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Originally Posted by Malmstrom

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/01...g?v=1564765617

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An opinion, yes. But it's certainly the majority opinion amongst the online community. Be it here or reddit. The near universal opinion is Astro's new cards are boring and that Sleeve Draw is an utter mess. Even glancing at FFlogs suggests the job is simply not well liked. Never has Astro been as far behind Scholar or White Mage as it has been this tier. If that trend continues going into 5.2 when Astro offers higher damage output. That all but confirms people simply don't like it.

Mostly I saw a shining opportunity to use that when he stated that the current system was worse.

It may be a majority opinion, but it is nonetheless an opinion.

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Originally Posted by Malmstrom

Leveled it to cap 4 times!

Is it really a bad attitude, or do you just perceive a different opinion as such?

I'm playing devil's advocate (albeit mildly trollishly) more than anything. I'm largely neutral about it either way.

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Right. No further comment.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

That doesn't solve the problem at all. Balance would still compete with bole with the system you suggested when you draw or redraw, making that second spread a last resort when you don't get a dmg buff after you fished for it...but we already had a tool for that: minor arcana. And we both know that unless you draw an ewer exactly when you're oom because something went wrong or a bole when you realize at the last second that the tank forgot its cd before a tank buster (good luck with that), you'd just use minor arcana.

One thing they could do is keep divination as the only dmg up buff and repurpose all cards to be non-dps support utilities. Do realize, however, that the chance of having a system where dps buffs compete with other buffs is probably close to zero, for good reason.

Now I'm not saying the new system is not uninspired. But the previous system was a mess and had to be reworked.

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If those respective spread shots were offensive and defensive, it couldn't be Balance or bust. The second slot could only ever hold Bole, Ewer or Spire. If it's still a matter of prioritizing all your Redraws on offensive cards then make it two separate Draws abilities. That'd be better than the mess that is Sleeve Draw, especially since the second slot is only for utility, so you wouldn't need to Draw spam as aggressively.

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

Right. No further comment.

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I think that's twice you've done that, now?

At least that I've seen.

Oh, well!

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Balance at the expensive of gameplay it looks like. Warrior, Dark Knight, every healer and Monk are all complaining about how dull and uninspired either some or all aspects of their jobs are. And balance is only arguably better now. 5.0 was some of the worst decisions we've seen in years.

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Yes and as a result, 5.0 is the best expansion to date, especially the balance.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

An opinion, yes. But it's certainly the majority opinion amongst the online community. Be it here or reddit. The near universal opinion is Astro's new cards are boring and that Sleeve Draw is an utter mess. Even glancing at FFlogs suggests the job is simply not well liked. Never has Astro been as far behind Scholar or White Mage as it has been this tier. If that trend continues going into 5.2 when Astro offers higher damage output. That all but confirms people simply don't like it.

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Last reddit thread I saw, people the top comment wasn't even about cards. I think people are overestimating how much people want to change the card system back. I'm sure the devs have plenty of feedback by now, including their own statistics. If we don't see any QoL changes on Tuesday, then I can see where they stand, especially since they have commented on this in the past as well.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

Yes and as a result, 5.0 is the best expansion to date, especially the balance.

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I am all for balance but if it comes at the sake of gameplay, you trade one problem for another. Now we're seeing more and more complaints about how uninspired a lot of jobs feel. Both tanks and healers suffer from homogenizing, especially Warrior and Dark Knight which are almost identical to one another. Bard lacks even the slightest bit of nuance now, Monk is a complete mess and well, I think the sheer volume of complaints say everything about the healers.

5.1 is also when things started to balance out better. 5.0 was a complete train wreck.

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Last reddit thread I saw, people the top comment wasn't even about cards. I think people are overestimating how much people want to change the card system back. I'm sure the devs have plenty of feedback by now, including their own statistics.

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More than likely because at this point, no one expects the card system to change until 6.0. Look at Stormblood Dark Knight. They didn't touch it despite is slowly dropping into near obscurity.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I am all for balance but if it comes at the sake of gameplay, you trade one problem for another. Now we're seeing more and more complaints about how uninspired a lot of jobs feel. Both tanks and healers suffer from homogenizing, especially Warrior and Dark Knight which are almost identical to one another. Bard lacks even the slightest bit of nuance now, Monk is a complete mess and well, I think the sheer volume of complaints say everything about the healers.

5.1 is also when things started to balance out better. 5.0 was a complete train wreck.




More than likely because at this point, no one expects the card system to change until 6.0. Look at Stormblood Dark Knight. They didn't touch it despite is slowly dropping into near obscurity.

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AST 5.0 was god awful. The Regens were so bad it actually hurt my soul. Personal opinion I think it was the best expansion for a lot of other things, story, job actions, GnB, dancer and etc but not for balance. It wasn't job balance by far.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I am all for balance but if it comes at the sake of gameplay, you trade one problem for another. Now we're seeing more and more complaints about how uninspired a lot of jobs feel. Both tanks and healers suffer from homogenizing, especially Warrior and Dark Knight which are almost identical to one another. Bard lacks even the slightest bit of nuance now, Monk is a complete mess and well, I think the sheer volume of complaints say everything about the healers.

5.1 is also when things started to balance out better. 5.0 was a complete train wreck.

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To which I think homogenizing is good as I put balance up there. Of course I value fun too, but fun is subjective. Case in point, I enjoy the current AST over the old one. Also, do keep in mind that there are always more complainers than satisified people with these kind of things. Happy people tend to just play the game than complain.

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

AST 5.0 was god awful. The Regens were so bad it actually hurt my soul. Personal opinion I think it was the best expansion for a lot of other things, story, job actions, GnB, dancer and etc but not for balance. It wasn't job balance by far.

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This expansion is the best balance we've had in quite possibly the history of this game. 5.0 wasn't perfect was on the right track from the very start. Every job was serviceable. 5.1 rolls around and lingering issues get patched up leaving just the caster dilemna. Compare this to any other expansion like HW where there was an arms race of balance passes to fix jobs culminating to making AST overpowered in an effort to get more people playing. SB had this too with jobs like SCH and DRG were weak and they needed fixing.

Really with 5.2 and the balance pass on casters, we'd be at the most balanced FFXIV has been in its lifetime.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

To which I think homogenizing is good as I put balance up there. Of course I value fun too, but fun is subjective. Case in point, I enjoy the current AST over the old one. Also, do keep in mind that there are always more complainers than satisified people with these kind of things. Happy people tend to just play the game than complain.



This expansion is the best balance we've had in quite possibly the history of this game. 5.0 wasn't perfect was on the right track from the very start. Every job was serviceable. 5.1 rolls around and lingering issues get patched up leaving just the caster dilemna. Compare this to any other expansion like HW where there was an arms race of balance passes to fix jobs culminating to making AST overpowered in an effort to get more people playing. SB had this too with jobs like SCH and DRG were weak and they needed fixing.

Really with 5.2 and the balance pass on casters, we'd be at the most balanced FFXIV has been in its lifetime.

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At what cost? Satisfaction? Unique game play? There are so many issues still to be handled to this day but I won't go into detail with that can be easily noticeable with all the threads created. RDM was still suffering even with 5.0, and don't get me started on BRD's song utility. If they manage to come up with fixes to all these concerns from now to next expansion then I might agree with you but the fact remains jobs being balance isn't everything to people.