SMN Why don't we hear about egi glamours anymore?

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Originally Posted by OvernightSiren

I think a smart way to re-do summoner while removing the egis would be to sort of change the aestehtics of all of Summoner's abilities and make them all more akin to how Yuna's abilities are themed in Dissidia/Dissidia NT.

So for example instead of "BIO" as a DoT and poison based abilities, Summoner's dots could be called "Hellfire" and have the animation for it be a quick flash of Ifrit-egi or like Ifrit's head/a shadow of Ifrit's head (like how SMN's Akh Morn was just a Bahamut head above them back in HW before they got Demi-Bahamut). They could do similar things for their other abilities. Their two DoTs could be one based on Ifrit as a burning over time effect and the other based on Shiva to be sort of a frostbite effect, etc. etc. Idk, food for thought for the devs. It's clear they don't want the job to be pet based as it steps further away from that, but I feel like doing it this way would be the only way to make the job not pet-based while also feeling like it has any connection to the summons in the game.

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Turning the egis into a stance that triggers different animations and effects for certain spells could work. This is already baked into the notion of the demi-egis, to a degree, and I would not mind seeing such an approach extended and taken further to its logical conclusion. The egis/demi-egis as their own objects come with a load of different hassles and a lack of flexibility.

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Originally Posted by Leidolf

Dreadwyrm Trance was the "becoming Primal" option in HW and the reception was... divisive. There's a reason why they gave us the ability to Summon Bahamut in Stormblood.

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Wut? Did we even play the same quests? Trance was never the alternative to summoning. The reason Trance exists is cause lore wise we cant summon more than 3 egis, since summoning reqcuires you to bind aether to the primals aspect and our aether is spent on those egis. Trance was literally the mean to be able to summon more, it never was a replacement for bahamut. That we would get bahamut wasnt unexpected. Also Trance was well received back in hw. also to further prove my point, if it was like that why would we get a second one, not to mention if you ask anyone what they like about pheonix theyll say the spell transformations. Thats not pheonixs effect though, its the trances effect.

Regardless of what they do with Trances and Demi's, I would still like to have at least one more option for regular egi glamours.
If it's a case of animations, I'd even be ok if they kept them to the same elements.
So Ifrit could be glamoured with a Suzaku egi, Titan with say Sephirot, and Garuda with... Ravana? Bismarck? Byakko? Shinryu?
Or hell, just a single Shinryu Egi glam, that could work for any element.

Something I been wondering is that since

HEAVY SHADOWBRINGERS SPOILER

we got another soul fragment from ardbert, if we could get more egis, since we are aetherically denser, ie we have a larger pool of unbound aether

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Wut? Did we even play the same quests? Trance was never the alternative to summoning. The reason Trance exists is cause lore wise we cant summon more than 3 egis, since summoning reqcuires you to bind aether to the primals aspect and our aether is spent on those egis. Trance was literally the mean to be able to summon more, it never was a replacement for bahamut. That we would get bahamut wasnt unexpected. Also Trance was well received back in hw. also to further prove my point, if it was like that why would we get a second one, not to mention if you ask anyone what they like about pheonix theyll say the spell transformations. Thats not pheonixs effect though, its the trances effect.

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In the lore that's literally the reason. You aether capacity was capped with the egi you had so you couldn't summon Ramuh. Y'shtola's sister then came across the research for Trance from the Allagan's who ran afoul the same issue and got around external summoning by using Trance. She figured since everyone in Eorzea was caked in the aether of Bahamut that going to the place where it was at its peak would be the best way to draw it up since a normal Primal Trance wouldn't likely be sufficient against the lesser Ascian.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Wut? Did we even play the same quests? Trance was never the alternative to summoning. The reason Trance exists is cause lore wise we cant summon more than 3 egis, since summoning reqcuires you to bind aether to the primals aspect and our aether is spent on those egis. Trance was literally the mean to be able to summon more, it never was a replacement for bahamut. That we would get bahamut wasnt unexpected. Also Trance was well received back in hw. also to further prove my point, if it was like that why would we get a second one, not to mention if you ask anyone what they like about pheonix theyll say the spell transformations. Thats not pheonixs effect though, its the trances effect.

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No, he is exactly right. You can take the lore and flush because it doesn't mean jack. Devs design lore around gameplay, not the other way around and HW they wanted to focus more on the player than the player's pets.

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Originally Posted by FoxCh40s

Theyve literally been saying this for six damn years. It's just more bait on the hook to keep the fish interested. I honestly believe there is absolutely ZERO work being done on it, as weve been promised more Egi Glamour since freaking 2.1.

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https://bucket.bluegartr.com/d0a4981...b58d7f31ce.png

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

No, he is exactly right. You can take the lore and flush because it doesn't mean jack. Devs design lore around gameplay, not the other way around and HW they wanted to focus more on the player than the player's pets.
https://bucket.bluegartr.com/d0a4981...b58d7f31ce.png

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its a video game , story and gameplay are supposed to go hand in hand .you can prefer gameplay over story thats ok, but the story is literally the reasoning behind how the gameplay should be. Youre not the only one dissing on story but i honestly cant comprehend why you people think that doing something without any guidelines will lead to something fun when in reality its like trying to make a huge sentence without knowing what do you want that sentence to say or what people want to hear or even if you went to far.it is hard enough even when you have guidelines, for example my former sentence drags on and on and im sure that halfway through it gets tiring to read due to not having any punctuation marks. how do you think something more complex would be? and furthermore ,why shouldnt I ask for the story to evolve along with the gameplay? its not an one or the other thing, a good story enriches good gameplay and the opposite of that is also true.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

its a video game , story and gameplay are supposed to go hand in hand .you can prefer gameplay over story thats ok, but the story is literally the reasoning behind how the gameplay should be. Youre not the only one dissing on story but i honestly cant comprehend why you people think that doing something without any guidelines will lead to something fun when in reality its like trying to make a huge sentence without knowing what do you want that sentence to say or what people want to hear or even if you went to far.it is hard enough even when you have guidelines, for example my former sentence drags on and on and im sure that halfway through it gets tiring to read due to not having any punctuation marks. how do you think something more complex would be? and furthermore ,why shouldnt I ask for the story to evolve along with the gameplay? its not an one or the other thing, a good story enriches good gameplay and the opposite of that is also true.

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Facts are Facts, they build the gameplay first then have the story team build around it. Don't believe me? You can lookup past interviews yourself. That is how the game is made.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Facts are Facts, they build the gameplay first then have the story team build around it. Don't believe me? You can lookup past interviews yourself. That is how the game is made.

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as a sad point of support: let us recall the deep in-depth lore for each AST card on how and why they work that you learn as you go, which is now completely untrue with the "they're all identical" gameplay overhaul of ShB (to say nothing of MCH and it's removed drones)

You really can't build a solid game by tying lore and gameplay together rigidly. If gameplay suffers for lore you've made a bad game. It may be a good story, but it's still a bad game. If you're good at integration it may not be obvious that lore takes a backseat to gameplay, but at the end of the day it still needs to work that way.

Or how bout for the next expansion when summoners get to lvl90 they get a new passive that changes the base egis to bahumet/pheonix/a new egi. Now we just use B/P/new egi as a regular pet complete with extra moves as well as keeping akh morn/revelations/new egi power move as the big finisher.
If you want to keep the look of the original egis, there will be a option to make them as glam options.

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Originally Posted by JisKing98

Or how bout for the next expansion when summoners get to lvl90 they get a new passive that changes the base egis to bahumet/pheonix/a new egi. Now we just use B/P/new egi as a regular pet complete with extra moves as well as keeping akh morn/revelations/new egi power move as the big finisher.
If you want to keep the look of the original egis, there will be a option to make them as glam options.

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Well if you replace the egi with demi, then what is the point of summon demi? No, the next expansion should add one and done summons. Something that would require a charge up like mediation.

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Originally Posted by Leidolf

In the lore that's literally the reason. You aether capacity was capped with the egi you had so you couldn't summon Ramuh. Y'shtola's sister then came across the research for Trance from the Allagan's who ran afoul the same issue and got around external summoning by using Trance. She figured since everyone in Eorzea was caked in the aether of Bahamut that going to the place where it was at its peak would be the best way to draw it up since a normal Primal Trance wouldn't likely be sufficient against the lesser Ascian.

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The whole "3 egi's limit!" thing and subsequent trancing/demi thing is being looked at backwards. Lore is subservient to gameplay. The reason that was introduced is because obviously the devs don't want to have to do a new egi for every new primal you fight. Having to come up with a different set of abilities for each one and balancing them all would be a nightmare. Egi-Glamours were supposed to be a middle ground for this, getting the aesthetic without the ability bloat nightmare, but it appears nothing is getting done on that front.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Well if you replace the egi with demi, then what is the point of summon demi? No, the next expansion should add one and done summons. Something that would require a charge up like mediation.

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I've seen in proposed that ability animations could be replaced with primal summons, of a sort. So say, Tri-Disaster gets replaced with briefly summoning leviathan to hit the enemy with tainted water, or painflare could involve Ramuh unleashing a lightning bolt, outburst could be replaced with something else, like say Ravana doing a spin attack.

Going the Dissidia Yuna route with summons would help a lot with turning Summoner into something that actually fits the name. Just pop in, do a move that fits, pop out. Honestly that's kind of what I wanted the focus to be for Summoners. Build up resources, expend them for a burst summon, refresh.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

Going the Dissidia Yuna route with summons would help a lot with turning Summoner into something that actually fits the name. Just pop in, do a move that fits, pop out. Honestly, that's kind of what I wanted the focus to be for Summoners. Build up resources, expend them for a burst summon, refresh.

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I think that ship has sunk through. If they did this now, it would be a completely different job and while I do get where the appetite for it comes from.. it would be a bit shitty for those who like elements of the current style and have played it for six years. There's a bit of a lore issue for them to work around with that approach as well.

Personally i think they should double down on the trance and demis. I do appreciate why people do want Dissidia Yuna style gameplay though. I just think its too late for such a fundamental change.

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

I think that ship has sunk through. If they did this now, it would be a completely different job and while I do get where the appetite for it comes from.. it would be a bit shitty for those who like elements of the current style and have played it for six years. There's a bit of a lore issue for them to work around with that approach as well.

Personally i think they should double down on the trance and demis. I do appreciate why people do want Dissidia Yuna style gameplay though. I just think its too late for such a fundamental change.

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The lore team works around what the designers come up with. If they felt like adding primals for every attack the Lore team would come up with some explanation for why you can do it. "Untapped knowledge buried deep in the soul stone of stable arcanima-based Primals" or some such. As far as players who like the current design I wasn't really suggesting changing the mechanics. If they really like the specific aesthetics I'm not sure quite what to say. Though given how regularly they shift Summoner I'm not sure it's a huge issue to the team.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

The lore team works around what the designers come up with. If they felt like adding primals for every attack the Lore team would come up with some explanation for why you can do it. "Untapped knowledge buried deep in the soul stone of stable arcanima-based Primals" or some such. As far as players who like the current design I wasn't really suggesting changing the mechanics. If they really like the specific aesthetics I'm not sure quite what to say. Though given how regularly they shift Summoner I'm not sure it's a huge issue to the team.

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I did start a thread floating an idea of a demi Raktapakna, using the trances (like other Demis) and the idea of it begin a fusion of Ifrit and Garuda to bypass the restriction while showing an evolution of the SMN as the demi would necessitate the ability to summon two egi at once and then merge then together

Not really germane to egi glamours, but I though that put it up as an example of using lore to justify new summons.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I did start a thread floating an idea of a demi Raktapakna, using the trances (like other Demis) and the idea of it begin a fusion of Ifrit and Garuda to bypass the restriction while showing an evolution of the SMN as the demi would necessitate the ability to summon two egi at once and then merge then together

Not really germane to egi glamours, but I though that put it up as an example of using lore to justify new summons.

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Or! have trance be a grey state that changes with what egis you have . make it so that the first trance upgrades the egi into a "demi version", instead of having poor bahamut be as bad as it is now, and then make it so that the second trance have the option to 3 different kind of demi-summons depending on what egi is out. Unaspected summons would be either their own key or they could be something that would wipe the colour code clean .
All this is what i was expecting during stormblood ,instead they said fck aetherflow you dont get to have such a fluid rotation that everything worked seemlesly with one another.
Also even though i do want lore with gameplay i will agree with all of the peeps who pointed out that they stopped giving a shit about lore . if they did care aetherflow would be still here and the lvl 80 quest would say why we got pheonix instead of a pat in the back while singing youre the best around. though how we got pheonix is self explanatory , we tranced only once , it was the field where pheonix fought bahamut, we somehow tranced to both or their aether is connected and we find out during shadowbringers cause reasons "roll eyes"

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Or! have trance be a grey state that changes with what egis you have . make it so that the first trance upgrades the egi into a "demi version", instead of having poor bahamut be as bad as it is now, and then make it so that the second trance have the option to 3 different kind of demi-summons depending on what egi is out. Unaspected summons would be either their own key or they could be something that would wipe the colour code clean .
All this is what i was expecting during stormblood ,instead they said fck aetherflow you dont get to have such a fluid rotation that everything worked seemlesly with one another.
Also even though i do want lore with gameplay i will agree with all of the peeps who pointed out that they stopped giving a shit about lore . if they did care aetherflow would be still here and the lvl 80 quest would say why we got pheonix instead of a pat in the back while singing youre the best around. though how we got pheonix is self explanatory , we tranced only once , it was the field where pheonix fought bahamut, we somehow tranced to both or their aether is connected and we find out during shadowbringers cause reasons "roll eyes"

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I think the reasoning behind Phenix makes sense. When Lousoix defeated Bahamut, he released all the phoenix aether back to the land, at the same time Bahamuts aether was being dissipated. Essentially, we get Bahamut because everyone was bathed in his aether at the end of the calamity, the same is true of Phoenix. I do wish they had kept job quests to explain it, but i understand why they elected to suspend them while we were on the first and instead focus on the WOD/ Cardinals.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

The lore team works around what the designers come up with. If they felt like adding primals for every attack the Lore team would come up with some explanation for why you can do it. "Untapped knowledge buried deep in the soul stone of stable arcanima-based Primals" or some such. As far as players who like the current design I wasn't really suggesting changing the mechanics. If they really like the specific aesthetics I'm not sure quite what to say. Though given how regularly they shift Summoner I'm not sure it's a huge issue to the team.

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I suppose the reason i am a bit against it is i do not really like the manifesting of disembodied limbs that do something and vanish. Nor do i feel like the summoner having Demi's and egis and summoning disembodied primals to do moves would gel well. If we got signature spells from the primals we have beaten, I would be open to that more. The disembodied DWT Bahamut head still bothers me. Id much rather have the trance give the LB wings, but equally, i respect why you would the Dissidia style stuff, i just feel that that ship has sunk long ago and the trance > Demi's is a much better way of achieving it.

I mean, I'm totally fine with NT Yuna as inspiration too, where each spell is a clear Primal one while you have the one key summon. But I feel that would take a bit more shifting in some ways. But basically I just want to see Summons actually be more important to the job, and not in an invocation style (while neat and acceptable Summons are evocations in terms of ceremonial stuff, at least when a Summoner does them), or at least not solely that. It would also allow every summon to get some attention, as there are quite a lot of them to go through. And doubtless some fan favorites still haven't even been touched.

The OP alluded to past summons; I think that would be cool if SMN could summon things from other games like Espers. I like how the Tonberry is a summon in FF7, or Cebrebus in VIII. Creatures that many don't consider true summons.

I would like it if they pay homage to XI. Like having Yaguado and Quadav as summons. I feel like summons do not always have to be some epic lore story-line. That was never the case in past FF games. Some of the summons made no sense lol.

The beauty of things like a Yagudo or Tonberry, is they can be on screen full time due to their size while also being aesthetically pleasing. You could even get cute with it, making SMN the Super Smash Bros of FF, with summons from crossover events like how they had a Dragon Quest and XIV creatures playable in XI's Monstrosity mode.

Oh man a Tonberry summon would be so hilarious, slowly creeping toward the enemy one step at a time until *poke* MASSIVE DAMAGE. Kinda like old school Doom from WoW but without the demon popping out and murdering everyone, and much more aesthetically pleasing.

I feel like the mixed direction of job design is why we never really hear about egi glam anymore. The closer we get to a rotating cycle of demi-primals, the less egi matter. Without knowing what the job's thematic direction will be moving forward (we've seen major reworks for other jobs, so it's at least a possibility regardless of how slim), there isn't a reason to have the egi glam convo if it turns out that dev time/cost is better spent elsewhere. Besides, as it is, of the 3 egi regardless of glam, only 2 are viable, and each has a niche, so it's not like you can use whichever one you want whenever you want to.

The "rework the job to make summons/summon attacks the thematic toolkit" is a personal favorite of mine, and I think has merit and can be done well in this game with the roster of primals we've encountered through the story. Since the job's lore revolves around being steeped in primal aether, there's a strong case to be made that we have been VERY sufficiently steeped in lots of different primal aether and should be able to achieve channeling that aether into the same/similar spells/temporary quick summons using personal aether (obviously toned down to appropriate potencies). Really, it's the DoTs and DoT-centric stuff that needs to find a home on a new job for real change to happen for SMN.

I'd be perfectly fine if they got rid of the Egis honestly, so not hearing any rumors involving Egi glamours is actually good news for me.

Make something like Demi Nidhogg happen and give us a fully alternating Demi rotation.
That would feel like a real SMN to me. The Egis are graphically outdated and are overstaying at this point.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

I'd be perfectly fine if they got rid of the Egis honestly, so not hearing any rumors involving Egi glamours is actually good news for me.

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According to Yoshida himself (through the LL Revivals), they are working on them.
It's just that it's still a "long way off", apparently.

Also, the whole point of the Egi glamour system was to give us Egis from Primals we've defeated post-2.0 (with some Carbuncles on the side).

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Make something like Demi Nidhogg happen and give us a fully alternating Demi rotation.
That would feel like a real SMN to me. The Egis are graphically outdated and are overstaying at this point.

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Not gonna happen.
Lore-wise, Allagan Summoners create constructs (e.g. Egis) or Trances out of Primals, and Nidhogg was definitely not a Primal.

In any case, I sincerely hope they stick with Egis for "regular" Primals, and Trances/Demis for stronger ones (such as Alexander or Shinryu).

Eh, while he wasn't a Primal they could always come up with some explanation for it. I think the bigger issue is it's a lot of dragon (why I would hope no Shinryu too).

i presume Dragoon will get all the nidohog stuff and to be fair egi could really just go ,obviously keep Bahamut and Phoenix but SMN could really do with a Aesthetic overhaul so its attacks actually look like its summoning stuff instead of mostly being poison mage with pets.

I wouldn't mind a Warring Triad side-plot to give us Sephirot, Sophia and Zurvan egis, seeing as the model for Sephirot is already in the game.
Sure it may just be a colour palette swap on the Titan egi, but it's a new aesthetic option at least, and you could easily include all three within the same short quest about attuning to some device in Azyz Lla. Plus they line up with Titan/Garuda/Ifrit fairly well and could even use the same attacks.

Guys smn is basicly an engineer. He can make a coffee maker magic circuit if he so wished. Plus the allagans got the techniques from the ascians so it is possible to summon something Just from nothing. It Just reqcuires a fck ton of aether. This is why i keep saying smn doesnt have an identity crisis and if anything dots game play works smoothly and its fun.
Oh and something else. Miasma and bio is the magic way of what garland did with Black rose.
Srsly smn/acn/sch lore is too good. These jobs are properly explained magic users. I Just wish that they didnt take a shit on them in shb and also that they dont get lazy and make something as unappealing as a fester that looks like a summon. Jesus christ that is not summoning if anything its a diservice to an actual summon.

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

Not gonna happen.
Lore-wise, Allagan Summoners create constructs (e.g. Egis) or Trances out of Primals, and Nidhogg was definitely not a Primal.

In any case, I sincerely hope they stick with Egis for "regular" Primals, and Trances/Demis for stronger ones (such as Alexander or Shinryu).

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Personally...I give little to no importance at the lore explanations to back up the SMN Egi/Demi decisions. I'm gonna buy whatever unreasonable lmao explanation they come up with as long as I don't have to keep running around with a sparkly pikachu or a flying potato at level 90. If we don't have a Demi rotation on SMN on the next expansion, this job is gonna stay at 80 for me.
The "game wouldn't support it graphically" excuses are obviously a thing of the past now, so just, once and for all, make it happen. A real summon job with slightly smaller versions of threatening primals landing flashy attacks. Who the hell wouldn't want this.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Guys smn is basicly an engineer. He can make a coffee maker magic circuit if he so wished. Plus the allagans got the techniques from the ascians so it is possible to summon something Just from nothing. It Just reqcuires a fck ton of aether. This is why i keep saying smn doesnt have an identity crisis and if anything dots game play works smoothly and its fun.
Oh and something else. Miasma and bio is the magic way of what garland did with Black rose.
Srsly smn/acn/sch lore is too good. These jobs are properly explained magic users. I Just wish that they didnt take a [] on them in shb and also that they dont get lazy and make something as unappealing as a fester that looks like a summon. Jesus christ that is not summoning if anything its a diservice to an actual summon.

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The lore of having similar magic to black rose may be interesting but that's not summoning, and hard disagree that a fester in theme of summons is disservice compared to being mostly related to not summoning. ShB, after making the finger dance more friendly in the patch, imo is one of the best states the --summoner-- theme has been. I'm happy you like the dot mechanics or lore that doesn't relate to summoning at all but this isn't "garlean engineer" job it's a summoner, it should have a primary focus on summoning, and if it must it should cost other theme's that are unrelated to summoning to get to that state.

So while a summoned theme'd fester is not required it certainly wouldn't be a disservice to summoner as it lends towards it's theme (also Fester Summon is basically half the summons in the FF series that just one and done do something, only a few like FFX actually have you have a pet out- so I think calling it a disservice is further off because many FFs are just that). Though for giggles you could bring black rose in line with summons by making it a primal, that certainly would be interesting to have a manufactured molecular contagion primal and would actually make it sense in terms of what it does... though the lore implications of actually using even a fraction of what basically causes the end in one timeline is.. uh. . . . yeah... lol. That's some dark power right there haha. Yet in this way bio's looks could be upgraded but in similar visual theme to it's poisonous nature already. I don't think the bio stuff HAS to change to primal theme but I think it's a good opportunity, technically most summoners in FF games that were called that but didn't have job systems have had other tasks that they can do outside of summon (a feature in itself that is usually pretty useless by the end of the game if you grinded a lot like I did, like in FFX my Lulu could one inch throat punch the bee sisters with her doll); although, special note that in games that have jobs like the tactics/FFXI that summoner specifically only relates to summons and nothing else (which is why I think it's nice they gave summoner a wide set of tools, but I also think that set of tools should as much as possible be primal inspired, like instead of their cure they get a carbuncle cure, phoenix raise, etc- with a bit of flavor to each spell if possible so it feels primal touched and not a standard spell reskinned).

Like giving Samurai a bunch of skills that relate to shields, the few skills that relate to katana being like scabbard bash (making comparison to egi's with a rare super attack, before demis), having it have amazing lore built around the shields, while you are well within your right to think "wow this is nice", I think people are well within their right to say ...yeah less shields, why were there so many shields in the first place?, way more katana. And I would also argue while you might feel it's cool that a shield samurai is a samurai with an identity crisis- that identity crisis may be interesting but it is still an identity crisis (sometimes really unique things are made out of taking something and shifting it out of it's comfort zone; however, I don't think shifting summoner out of summoning makes it a more interesting summoner, especially in a system where your job needs to be an accurate title of your identity, and anything that goes into the summoner zone is better for something called summoner).

Though I am half referencing ARR SMN in that example, I actually feel they've come a long way and made SMN more and more SMN with every expansion, and while of course I'd love to see more and more primal content and less other stuff, I still feel at least at cap (when you've got it all, big chonker bahamut and phephe) that it's pretty neat and summoner-y. For those suggesting even more demi or other summoner related things (primal festers, demis, new one shot demi+1 mechanics, etc), something I do myself sometimes, I generally would probably like those changes, but compared to where we were from, in terms of the job's theme and visual composure, I think we're doing a lot better and when I see my level 80 SMN run around I actually feel the theme- honestly I never had much issue with the mechanical gameplay even in ARR I just thought the image, the theme, the identity crisis, wasn't right and have been thankful they've made adjustments each expansion. I know mechanically some of the adjustments have some people favoring them or not, but now that they made the job is a little bit less oGCD-rush so it feels smoother I think it feels nice to play mechanically as well as theme (which is a nice place to be in). I'm sure they can continue to refine play and theme but that's what all the jobs get each expansion lol.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

The lore of having similar magic to black rose may be interesting but that's not summoning, and hard disagree that a fester in theme of summons is disservice compared to being mostly related to not summoning. ShB, after making the finger dance more friendly in the patch, imo is one of the best states the --summoner-- theme has been. I'm happy you like the dot mechanics or lore that doesn't relate to summoning at all but this isn't "garlean engineer" job it's a summoner, it should have a primary focus on summoning, and if it must it should cost other theme's that are unrelated to summoning to get to that state.

So while a summoned theme'd fester is not required it certainly wouldn't be a disservice to summoner as it lends towards it's them (also Fester Summon is basically half the summons in the FF series that just one and done do something, only a few like FFX actually have you have a pet out- so I think calling it a disservice is further off because many FFs are just that). Though for giggles you could bring black rose in line with summons by making it a primal, that certainly would be interesting to have a manufactured molecular contagion primal and would actually make it sense in terms of what it does... though the lore implications of actually using even a fraction of what basically causes the end in one timeline is.. uh. . . . yeah... lol. That's some dark power right there haha. Yet in this way bio's looks could be upgraded but in similar visual theme to it's poisonous nature already. I don't think the bio stuff HAS to change to primal theme but I think it's a good opportunity, technically most summoners in FF games that were called that but didn't have job systems have had other tasks that they can do outside of summon (a feature in itself that is usually pretty useless by the end of the game if you grinded a lot like I did, like in FFX my Lulu could one inch throat punch the I]l.

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They actually did have more than summoning. Yuna was a healer as well. Garnet as well. Terra had Black magic. Ff8 summoning had them be also warriors. The thing is summoning isnt an exclusive art like Black magic or White magic, its a branch of the arcanima magic. Where every other job is an upgraded form of their class smn is a specialist. This is the thing everyone misses, this is why smn and sch having the same class works, and before someone goes ahead and tell me it doesnt. They fixed the artribute problem and any problem same actions had was also fixed with traits. But hey its the forums nobody gives a shit about a caster if you cant summon 50 fire 4s.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

They actually did have more than summoning. Yuna was a healer as well. Garnet as well. Terra had Black magic. Ff8 summoning had them be also warriors. The thing is summoning isnt an exclusive art like Black magic or White magic, its a branch of the arcanima magic. Where every other job is an upgraded form of their class smn is a specialist. This is the thing everyone misses, this is why smn and sch having the same class works, and before someone goes ahead and tell me it doesnt. They fixed the artribute problem and any problem same actions had was also fixed with traits. But hey its the forums nobody gives a shit about a caster if you cant summon 50 fire 4s.

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Looks like you only read part of what I said- I also mentioned the games that didn't have official job systems but had something called a summoner were able to multi-tasks (often this was true for all the characters, no one was just one job), yet any game that had a 'job system' summoning was specifically summoning as white magic and black magic were covered in their respective job titles.

I even commended SE for giving summoner multiple tools as some of the classic summoners that were part of the non-specific job systems, yet I tied it back around to what the title is and what the job title specific identifies- that for example even the summons represented this with their healing summons, raising summons, damage, debuff, etc (while also complimenting SE for the direction they've taken the theme since ARR). While also directly questioning that you think making Fester Primal related is not summoning since most of the FF summoners have simply been fester summoners in the sense that they summon something for ONE action and then the summon is out (if anything that represents quite a large portion of what a FF summoner has done, though of course FFX is a pretty popular rendition of summoner which is pet/direct command).

Seems to me you liked what SE did in the beginning, which is fine, but what you liked it for seems fairly distant from the actual classic 'summon' part of it (such that you even called something most of FF games have done, one off summons spells, a disgrace to summoning), so I'm going to have to say still disagree with you and say ShB (and demi content in general, each addition in the expansions) was good for SMN and that more summon related content is only a good thing for a job dedicated to summons.

Since I was here in the beginning asking for the change and I've seen SE work hard making the changes, I think it only fair that I stick around to compliment and thank them for doing so (which I do mean, thank you). That's not to say no one can suggest things (I do enjoy reading the ideas for unique one off big moves, more demi primals, primal related festers/bio attacks, etc), just that if anyone is trying to suggest a classic element like one off summon spells isn't summoner or more direct control summon content should be instead held at bay for the sake of things that have no direct link to summoning like bio/ruin/fest and black rose lore or that SE has not done well in lessening those elements by emphasizing summoning- well I'm going to have to jump in and disagree, and I only hope they continue to strengthen the primal bonds (no metaphorical whip of words, no salt, no begging, just cheering SE now as they make new and revise content).

Im sorry but ive honestly had this conversation too many times. Yes im extremely frustrated this is why i read sporadicly. Sure in older ffs the summon where coming did and effect and left but in 3 they also had rng abilities one White one Black ifrit actually healed. In 5 it also gave abilities such as a no cost random summon. In 6 every summon gave you magic and upped your stats. In 7 every summon was taking a spot of your spells you would have or other ability. During 8 you could boost them and they also would teach you abilities as well as up your stats, in 10 summon was its own entity, in 13 summon was fighting with you before doing his big attack. The biggest different between the one attack summon time and now is ofc the different genre but even then the attack also had passive attack even then though ff10 and onwards improved on that ff13 looking the most like a demi. Asking for one attack summon would be literally going backwards and also whats the different between that and egis? 3 less abilities and no need for the egi to walk so is it anything but a downgrade? Why would it not be a diservice to a summon when demis and egis do the same thing and more. And once again when i talk about summoning i dont mean any ff summoning i mean the ff14 summoning and anything that entails. We got the how summoning is done do we really need a complete different thing? We Will get more demis anyways we can get better egis. We Will summon more as we learn more things. Imo having to go through the steps of it aetherflow>trance>demi makes it more engaging and it also shows that even without the summon you arent completely useless.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Im sorry but ive honestly had this conversation too many times. Yes im extremely frustrated this is why i read sporadicly. Sure in older ffs the summon where coming did and effect and left but in 3 they also had rng abilities one White one Black ifrit actually healed. In 5 it also gave abilities such as a no cost random summon. In 6 every summon gave you magic and upped your stats. In 7 every summon was taking a spot of your spells you would have or other ability. During 8 you could boost them and they also would teach you abilities as well as up your stats, in 10 summon was its own entity, in 13 summon was fighting with you before doing his big attack. The biggest different between the one attack summon time and now is ofc the different genre but even then the attack also had passive attack even then though ff10 and onwards improved on that ff13 looking the most like a demi. Asking for one attack summon would be literally going backwards and also whats the different between that and egis? 3 less abilities and no need for the egi to walk so is it anything but a downgrade? Why would it not be a diservice to a summon when demis and egis do the same thing and more. And once again when i talk about summoning i dont mean any ff summoning i mean the ff14 summoning and anything that entails. We got the how summoning is done do we really need a complete different thing? We Will get more demis anyways we can get better egis. We Will summon more as we learn more things. Imo having to go through the steps of it aetherflow>trance>demi makes it more engaging and it also shows that even without the summon you arent completely useless.

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I personally don't see that as a downgrade, if you have Ifrit egi out it seems fair to me that your spells might be infused with fire as they become a sort of font that you feed in and out of- as you conspire to use that aspect aether it then aspects the rest of what you do, etc (but you're allowed to think it might not be that cool, subjective opinion is our own).

Just to be clear I'm not saying you can't have a preference lol, it might feel that way maybe- so wanted to explicitly say I'm not saying you're not allowed to feel differently lol, we all are, and ideally people don't lose stuff to gain stuff, I get that, I just wanted to set my own tent up in contrast since you said you didn't like ShB SMN and I thought it was pretty good :p.

I know it's difficult to do but if I had to list my own personal of summoner would be trying to make each summon feel more distinct for both the egi and demi (the new Phoenix Demi has some healing and aoe which helps and I appreciate that, but as much as possible without killing balance would be nice for all things primal). Though again that has huge balance consequences so... way easier said than done lol. But like if the egi's basic spells could be personalized just a bit more that'd be nice. They feel a bit too straight forward (which again I get is for balance, and glamours can make that a bit confusing but eeey that your choice/optional to do so- if SE tells me this spell is for Garuda Imma make it for Garuda XD). Like for Titan egi it would be neat if he could have some sort of baby tank mechanic for us (as I felt he lost a bit of his character when that went), perhaps a passive that he generates small amount of hp on his own health bar when out of combat or attacking and a unique auto cover move onto us that means he'll take damage whenever he has health (this means we're still the target, making balancing SMN easier in fights, and that our stoneskine can add to his health pool, but I feel it'll make it more like he's tanking rather than us- like when a Paladin slaps cover on you, of course keep him not target-able so no one is trying to cure him as his psudeo health goes down lol).

Also might be the unique benefit of one offs, is if the egi and demi system get too crowded and annoying for balance- can still add unique primal effects into those. Someone here, I think I got their name but don't want to get it wrong so I'd rather get the name of their system wrong, Tempus, which was an idea for these super primal moves- the ultimate throw back to big move summoner spells. Odin being one that would fit nicely in that.

Like I know you're not crazy into it but while I'd like to see more of the regular spells primal influenced I hope they're also made a bit special, like Carbuncle replacing the general cure with a unique gimmick (besides summoner cure is pretty bad so it could use a make over lol). Or their raise, in theme of phoenix could be raising them and dealing large radius aoe damage. (Or whatever else, lots of inspirations that could be had).

Anyway, I just wanted to be a foil lol. Carry on, as you are allowed- but I wanted to add some counter perspective :3. Especially as I, if not personally, even if indirectly, feel like SE has responded to some of my desires.

Id love to have a carbuncle that isnt a lesser summon. Id also love to have some sort of condition for an even bigger summon than a demi elder primals spring to mind. Id also love to finally get the teased power zenos had fusion of summoner and summon. What i had theorised back in stormblood was that we would have a colours system summoning a demi ranked egi and then every second or third summon we would have a combination to perform a summon bahamut or any other summon. I wanted devotion to be like enkindle different for every egi. But all this hopefully thinking was brought by how good of a core stormblood smn had. I dont ask for them to strengthen the core i only want aetherflow back and its chain and i also want to refine the trance the demis and the egis. Pheonix for example is a reskinned bahamut with an extra spell what makes him good is the trance effect of spell changing which is nice but if rather have those effect on the summon and trance to change into a stand alone phase with something else. The worst part for me currently is that the egis unless i ordered them they wont act on their own. They also have no healthbars and no presense theyre like a ghost rather than a summon Just a small robot which i got the remote. While in stormblood ifrit could aggro something and id be like godamnit ifrit or id let him deal with it or sometimes id aggro something and ifrit would slap and stun him and take the aggro for me. Or back in sb i was doing solo dragonskin maps a bit during the start of those days having titan tank and i had to manage my dps to not out aggro or i had to heal him. Egis existed while now they dont. This is my biggest gripe.

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Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

Id also love to finally get the teased power zenos had fusion of summoner and summon.

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That would be insane, and very cool. I kind of want a dedicated transformation job, and you could totally do both a transformation job and give summoner this.... but either way if Summoner temporarily just became some sort of hybrid primal thing. That would be pretty O_O. As we both agree there are loads of different kinds of summoner through the FF games, but allowing the player to BE the primal (portion/inspired/fragment/etc, not literal of course for lore reasons) would be pretty cool and feel a lot like the variants where the summon replaces your party in sRPG FFs. Especially if they gave it a kit that was different enough you felt like you had changed rather than just got a set of reskinned spells you already used (I mean they can have some vague similarity in mechanics so it doesn't mind break people but, feels different enough it's not just Ruin 8).

I want to reiterate I'd also love/still want a job that is dedicated to transformation, specially as I'm concerned if that caused too many disjointed pieces to the summoner; however, if it fit I bet it would be really awesome- espcially funny if you were going hybrid while you also had an egi out lol double primal action XD. And if it can't or whatever, I think a esperkin / Vincent job would be awesome (Terra Bradford inspired). You've hit a deep desire of mine lol, I'm a kid in the candy shop when it comes to magical transformations, primal inspired, zodiac, dark, gimmieeeeeee :3. So yeah if Summoner had it my eyes would probably explode but I would still hope for a job that is dedicated to it if possible (wouldn't complain but there is a hope that there would be a job dedicated to form shifting, ideally more frequently than WoW's- which sometimes is not often at all, obviously cause the forms are built around pure form role though and here it should probably be around styles).

I can see how you might feel that the egis are a bit empty in the head, conceptually I like that the pets don't have too much of a mind since they're just you extended (a chalice for you to fill for example) and I feel like Beastmaster would fit better with something that thinks for itself mostly; however, WHILE keeping the summoner command attacks (filling the chalice elements), which they can turn into combos and make more interesting if they want- they don't have to be simple press 1 for boop on the snoot, they could add a few auto actions to each egi for more flavor if they found it possible in balance. That each egi does a little thing on it's own, and you can command it to do a thing, both groups of things flavored to their roles, that would probably help them feel unique from each other with both sides coming together to build character (perhaps their 'brains' can have bias that makes them function better in certain situations, making them more obvious even, like Titan getting more excited if you personally are getting attacked and he's working hard to take damage onto himself (again thinking of that mechanic I mentioned where he 'covers' you with his health bar, such that if they think it's too imbalanced to have him actually tank then at least let him figuratively do so), or like your example of Ifrit might be that uniquely Ifrit channels that burning and spreadable aspect means where he'll go to town on anything near it (doing extra damage the first time each unique entity is within it's melee range, whether in combat or not)). I agree that Summoner getting things that make each primal that shows difference and character, charm, no matter how (in one offs, in egis, in demis, or something new)- it would be nice if each primal has a keener sense of it being 'that' primal. Though I don't think it has to be a complex brain or primarily autopilot (I think actually should be primarily controlled but some side auto-pilot isn't a bad idea), maybe one of them is abnormally smart like Ramuh and he can make some more interesting self choices, but I would ALL be for more character and differences (that don't destroy balance at least, but I feel they've some wiggle room they could work with still).

They can still add the glamour on top of that if they want, but that's that player's choice and so I'm fine saying that they don't be vague just in case someone glamours titan egi on top of garuda lol (I'd much rather each primal gets to speak for themselves than be able to change the color so free formerly that I can't even tell what I'm doing except for reading the tooltip- not that it has to be one or the other just setting a bias to if you had to choose one lol, I'd love to have more primals with characteristics over just differnet colors which is why I think it would be cool to make primal inspired spells (phoenix raise) but that it should also bespoke that characteristic.

(+1 for finding some agree-able territory lol, we may still hold our differences in some concepts, but definitely at least understand each other and have found other things to talk about).

Yeah, Summoner is not really close to being Summoner enough. It’s pretty obvious what Summons are. If you go through every FF and look at magic under the Summon category, there is a pretty darn consistent theme. You summon something. DoT spam is an entirely different magic style, and the themes of the spells are more Arcane Magick or maybe Green than anything resembling Summoning. Maybe if Doomtrain or Dryad was our partner summon that would hold more weight. As is it really is a disservice to the job, though hardly the only one.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

Yeah, Summoner is not really close to being Summoner enough. It’s pretty obvious what Summons are. If you go through every FF and look at magic under the Summon category, there is a pretty darn consistent theme. You summon something.

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Not this argument again...

Especially considering that:

1. Pre-FF10, summons were little more than glorified spells
2. Each FF game has different takes on certain jobs

Summoners in FF14 do summon something (Egis and Demis).
Now whether you agree with it or not is something else entirely.

Besides, the same could be said about every other job in the series in general (and FF14 in particular).
Like say, BLU or DRG in FF11, or SCH in FF14.

Personally, I'm OK with this incarnation of the Summoner job, and I'm hoping they continue expanding on it.