Why is RDM invisible right now? Where is the outrage?

"Red Mage is a learning and progression job that's not meant to farm or clear raids" is a meme people came up with to justify the class being terribly weak and in fact, has no basis in the game's actual systems, Red Mage is classed as a regular magical ranged DPS, not a Limited Job, and "progression-only job" doesn't exist for any other role no matter how easy or difficult a class might be.

"RDM is a jack of all trades so it should do awful damage" is also a meme. RDM is a DPS. Its purpose is to do DPS. RDM can't remotely replace a healer, so it should be balanced as a DPS.

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Originally Posted by RadicalPesto

"Red Mage is a learning and progression job that's not meant to farm or clear raids" is a meme people came up with to justify the class being terribly weak and in fact, has no basis in the game's actual systems, Red Mage is classed as a regular magical ranged DPS, not a Limited Job, and "progression-only job" doesn't exist for any other role no matter how easy or difficult a class might be.

"RDM is a jack of all trades so it should do awful damage" is also a meme. RDM is a DPS. Its purpose is to do DPS. RDM can't remotely replace a healer, so it should be balanced as a DPS.

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I’ve been saying I don’t know why people seem to think it’s ok for one role to have “progression jobs”. RDM was known for being the caster job you play to learn a fight, and then switch to SMN or BLM in SB. This has gotten exponentially worse in ShB. RDM and SMN have these heavy raise taxes.

No other role deals with this. The raise tax needs to be looked at. Give RDM more damage utility. Boost SMN potency. Give them the ranged treatment. BLM is pure DPS, SMN is damage with some utility, and then RDM is damage with high DPS utility.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I’ve been saying I don’t know why people seem to think it’s ok for one role to have “progression jobs”. RDM was known for being the caster job you play to learn a fight, and then switch to SMN or BLM in SB. This has gotten exponentially worse in ShB. RDM and SMN have these heavy raise taxes.

No other role deals with this. The raise tax needs to be looked at. Give RDM more damage utility. Boost SMN potency. Give them the ranged treatment. BLM is pure DPS, SMN is damage with some utility, and then RDM is damage with high DPS utility.

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There are so many different ways they could fix the balance, but my personal preference would be something like this: Give RDM actual healing tools so that they are capable of slotting in in place of one of the healers. Let's be honest, in everything but savage content, RDM's damage ability is perfectly fine for what is needed. It is in the high end content where it falls short simply because its competition is so much better. Similarly, you don't *really* need two dedicated healers.

Imagine if, instead, skilled Red Mages were taking a sort of "off-healer+DPS" role in raids with a strong "main" healer like a white mage by its side, while still doing the kind of DPS-like damage it currently does. Imagine RDMs popping medicas or aspected helios type skills with dualcast or using an oGCD big cure in between damage casts. Imagine replacing the 5-6k damage from a 2nd healer with a RDM who performs adequately enough to replace their heals while also dishing out 12k, maybe down to 11k rDPS depending on fight and skill level. Maybe that would make RDM too powerful, I dunno, but I sure think it would be fun. And I think that would make it a really true Red Mage as well.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

Taking away raise wouldn't strip RDM of it's identity
Yeah its a common spell RDM had in past games but so was Protect for WHM

They are not gonna take it away in ShB RDM will most likely only get pot buff and we gotta deal with storm blood rdm with verscathe and Scorch for two more years

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You don't even have to strip RDM of Verraise to have it not be balanced around a permanent Raise tax. You just need to put it under on-use tax, such as by having it cost some amount of Black/White Mana. There, your dps is slightly reduced every time you use Verraise, and otherwise not at all.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

There are so many different ways they could fix the balance, but my personal preference would be something like this: Give RDM actual healing tools so that they are capable of slotting in in place of one of the healers.

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There's been a lot of bad ideas being thrown out, but this one probably takes the cake.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

There's been a lot of bad ideas being thrown out, but this one probably takes the cake.

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There's no reason why you should think this is a bad idea. Frankly, you shouldn't need two healers in a party with a Red Mage. That honestly doesn't even make sense. How can you be a Red Mage if your white magic is so bad you still need two dedicated healers around you? It boggles my mind that you can even call that a red mage at all. That's not a red mage, it's a weak black mage with a bag of potions.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

There's no reason why you should think this is a bad idea. Frankly, you shouldn't need two healers in a party with a Red Mage. That honestly doesn't even make sense. How can you be a Red Mage if your white magic is so bad you still need two dedicated healers around you? It boggles my mind that you can even call that a red mage at all. That's not a red mage, it's a weak black mage with a bag of potions.

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All this hell over class balance is being made over the possibility of having 2k more DPS.

Your suggestion literally is 6k more total DPS to the team at the expense of -healers-.

In an expansion where healing satisfaction has hit an all time low.

I shouldn't need to explain this.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

All this hell over class balance is being made over the possibility of having 2k more DPS.

Your suggestion literally is 6k more total DPS to the team at the expense of -healers-.

In an expansion where healing satisfaction has hit an all time low.

I shouldn't need to explain this.

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Maybe those healers should "just play Red Mage bro lol".

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You don't even have to strip RDM of Verraise to have it not be balanced around a permanent Raise tax. You just need to put it under on-use tax, such as by having it cost some amount of Black/White Mana. There, your dps is slightly reduced every time you use Verraise, and otherwise not at all.

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To be fair, there is already the opportunity cost for mana (11 mana by default is the opportunity cost) as well as the opportunity cost for potency output, 310 potency flat (+10 potency for a 50% chance to proc an ability that does 20 more potency than Jolt 2). The question then becomes "What should a verraise cost?" I don't know, personally, I don't know what cost would assuage the tax that's placed on us.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Maybe those healers should "just play Red Mage bro lol".

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Red Mage's damage would need to be dropped significantly, to tank-level at most if not just above actual healer level. What you're suggesting would put healers in a ridiculously bad spot. In fact, the best way to implement what you're suggesting without throwing healers into complete disarray would be to make Red Mage a healer.

Humorously, if people wanted a more "hybrid" style Red Mage, making it a healer would be the best way to do it since the way healers play in this game is already a hybrid of healing and damaging. Though that hinges on making it a full-fledged healer, with everything that entails.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

"What should a verraise cost?".

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It comes down to a few things.

1. Shifting burden of MP
2. Minimizing potential cost of GCDs
3. Availability outside Healer Role

Verraise in its current form does all 3. Summoner does it with 2, and with swiftcast can do all 3.

At the bare minimum, to equalize the casters, Black Mage needs 2 of those 3, and it needs it in a form that is either comparable to Summoner or unique to itself.

*looks at Mana Shift*

Or get rid of it, or make a role version and heavily reduce its frequency.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

It comes down to a few things.

1. Shifting burden of MP
2. Minimizing potential cost of GCDs
3. Availability outside Healer Role

Verraise in its current form does all 3. Summoner does it with 2, and with swiftcast can do all 3.

At the bare minimum, to equalize the casters, Black Mage needs 2 of those 3, and it needs it in a form that is either comparable to Summoner or unique to itself.

*looks at Mana Shift*

Or get rid of it, or make a role version and heavily reduce its frequency.

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Personally I'm on team "get rid of it." I would compromise with "raise becomes a role skill." In either case, basically no matter the scope of Shurrikan's suggestion (increase verraise's cost (damage and mana gauge)), it wouldn't be enough, which is also sort of my point as a response to Shurri. Even back when verraise bankrupted RDM basically on first cast, you would find people saying "its fine their damage is low, they have verraise."

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Personally I'm on team "get rid of it."

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okay soooo I have to ask you then how exactly is FFXIV RDM a Red Mage if the solution is to just get rid of raise? Without raise what we have is just vercure, then stone and aero which are supposed to be our "white magic." I don't like being told that we can't do better damage because of raise either, and apparently actually giving RDM real healing tools is a "bad idea", so in what way is this monstrosity of a class supposed to be a red mage? If we can't actually heal then we don't really use white magic, we're just a weak black mage with a crappy gimmick that's supposed to *represent* the use of white magic and a tacked-on melee combo.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

snip.

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But what you're suggesting is making RDM a weak white mage with a crappy gimmick.

Pick your poison.

Also what the previous fellow was trying to tell you was that if you shouldn't need "2 healers with a Red Mage in the party". You know for a fact people will find a way to heal with 2 RDM and get a rdps boost.

So how would we deal with that problem? Nerf damage? Nerf healing? Ooh ooh go the FFXI route and turn it into a refresh gimp that you dragged along, forced to sit in the corner and cast refresh every so often while the real jobs do their thing?

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Originally Posted by Razard

But what you're suggesting is making RDM a weak white mage with a crappy gimmick.

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Not even close, it would be a versatile caster/fighter hybrid with healing tools. You know... A Red Mage.

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Originally Posted by Razard

Also what the previous fellow was trying to tell you was that if you shouldn't need "2 healers with a Red Mage in the party". You know for a fact people will find a way to heal with 2 RDM and get a rdps boost

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That sounds like more of a problem with raid design than anything else. RDM shouldn't be able to heal well enough to be the sole healer, but it *should* be able to heal well enough to be the secondary healer in a party with a single dedicated one. If the fights don't require a dedicated healer, then they should be made more healing-intensive.

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Originally Posted by Razard

So how would we deal with that problem? Nerf damage? Nerf healing?

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I'm sure there are many ways they could go about it, but some ideas include making the heals themselves relatively weak but include beefy shields or strong regens.

They're not even trying with RDM right now, that's the problem.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

okay soooo I have to ask you then how exactly is FFXIV RDM a Red Mage if the solution is to just get rid of raise? Without raise what we have is just vercure, then stone and aero which are supposed to be our "white magic." I don't like being told that we can't do better damage because of raise either, and apparently actually giving RDM real healing tools is a "bad idea", so in what way is this monstrosity of a class supposed to be a red mage? If we can't actually heal then we don't really use white magic, we're just a weak black mage with a crappy gimmick that's supposed to *represent* the use of white magic and a tacked-on melee combo.

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What kind of Red Mage is better at any white magic than White Mage? Why is Red Mage better at casting verraise than White Mage is at casting Raise?

This isn't a game where hybrids work. You want Red Mage to be a healer, that's the end-of for your suggestion. If RDM can stand in for a healer while being a DPS you've put the healer role on suicide watch...more than it already is.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

What kind of Red Mage is better at any white magic than White Mage? Why is Red Mage better at casting verraise than White Mage is at casting Raise?

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RDM had both dualcast and raise as far back as FFV so it's not like it's unheard of.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

You want Red Mage to be a healer, that's the end-of for your suggestion.

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What's clear is that you *want* that to be the end-of for my suggestion, but in reality, no. I don't want RDM to be a healer. I want it to be the versatile caster/fighter hybrid RDM is supposed to be, and that means it should be able to heal. Why do you think "This isn't a game where hybrids work"? There's absolutely no reason why a hybrid should simply not be able to work, that is just an excuse for someone who is either too lazy to make it work or simply doesn't want it to work.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

If RDM can stand in for a healer while being a DPS you've put the healer role on suicide watch...more than it already is.

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You act like just because RDM has the capability to stand in for a healer that that automatically means every party is going to want a red mage to stand in for a healer. If your argument is "We need to stop Red Mage from being a Red Mage because then everyone would realize our game doesn't actually require two dedicated healers" then you might as well be saying the game should force people to take healers even when they aren't necessary. How is that supposed to be acceptable game design.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

It comes down to a few things.

1. Shifting burden of MP
2. Minimizing potential cost of GCDs
3. Availability outside Healer Role

Verraise in its current form does all 3. Summoner does it with 2, and with swiftcast can do all 3.

At the bare minimum, to equalize the casters, Black Mage needs 2 of those 3, and it needs it in a form that is either comparable to Summoner or unique to itself.

*looks at Mana Shift*

Or get rid of it, or make a role version and heavily reduce its frequency.

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considering how each expansion they want healers to focus on more and more things
wont surprise me if SMN and RDM lose raise

and i welcome it tbh

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

RDM had both dualcast and raise as far back as FFV so it's not like it's unheard of.

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Did Raise cost more than a single turn to cast in FFV?

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What's clear is that you *want* that to be the end-of for my suggestion, but in reality, no.

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No, I'm just reading your suggestion into reality. There is no room for hybrids in Final Fantasy XIV.

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I don't want RDM to be a healer. I want it to be the versatile caster/fighter hybrid RDM is supposed to be, and that means it should be able to heal. Why do you think "This isn't a game where hybrids work"? There's absolutely no reason why a hybrid should simply not be able to work, that is just an excuse for someone who is either too lazy to make it work or simply doesn't want it to work.

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Final Fantasy XIV has been a supremely DPS-oriented game since Heavensward. Not even just DPS, but tanks and healers are likewise expected to output optimal damage. Paladin was left by the wayside because it couldn't output the DPS necessary to keep up with Dark Knight. Astrologian was initially left out because it didn't have the healing or damage necessary to keep up, and once buffed, it left White Mage by the wayside because their DPS couldn't keep up with the DPS that Astro offered to the party through cards; this continued throughout most of Stormblood. These are all non-DPS roles, left by the way because of DPS.

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You act like just because RDM has the capability to stand in for a healer that that automatically means every party is going to want a red mage to stand in for a healer.

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I act like that because that's reality. I'm going to come at this argument from two ways: for one, Solo Healing is already a thing in this game, and both Ultimates (hardest tuned fights in the game) were solo healed. Giving any room to take a DPS instead of a healer means that a DPS will be taken instead of a healer, especially if it can actually act as a sub-healer. Second angle: at the moment Red Mages are useless because of the gap between them and Black Mage in Savage: the gap between Red Mage and White Mage (strongest healer in rDPS) is much, much wider, so letting Red Mage stand in for a healer means that you would only ever take Red Mage + Healer, and in the worst case you'd probably have people going Red Mage + Red Mage as the healing duo, especially if both regens and shields are available to them.

In E4S 95th percentile, Black Mage is 14,846 rDPS. Red Mage is at 13,216. That's a difference of 1,630 rDPS. White Mage, the strongest healer, is at 7,421 rDPS. That's a difference of 5,795 rDPS. Almost 6,000 extra groupwide damage just for grabbing a Red Mage as the sub healer. If 1,630 rDPS is enough to invalidate RDM in favor of BLM, then 5,795 is more than enough to decimate any co-healing team one group may try to have. Again, keep in mind people already roll solo healing in this game, there would be plenty of groups that drop the two-healer standard to grab a Red Mage instead.

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If your argument is "We need to stop Red Mage from being a Red Mage because then everyone would realize our game doesn't actually require two dedicated healers"

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Everyone already realizes that this game doesn't need two dedicated healers. Red Mage can't be a sub-healer because it would decimate the healing role, which is already poorly balanced. If they made Red Mage a full healer, you'd have your fantasy because healers in this game already act as a hybrid "chucking heals and nukes in equal measure" style of gameplay. Hence why I stated your suggestion begins and ends with "Make Red Mage a healer."

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then you might as well be saying the game should force people to take healers even when they aren't necessary. How is that supposed to be acceptable game design.

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It's a gameplay design that has been the foundation since ARR, and countless times iterated upon to the point the game would need to be uprooted almost entirely, again. Even if you could convince them to take that financial leap, plenty of people like the game as it plays now, because that's the game they've gotten used to.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Even back when verraise bankrupted RDM basically on first cast, you would find people saying "its fine their damage is low, they have verraise."

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On the other hand, those were players, not devs (who have been rather quiet about RDM all expansion aside from the MP buffs in direct defiance of that bankruptcy).

Personally I'd say heavily reduce its frequency for RDM without making a role version (like giving it a CD/limited charges), or as Shurri suggested (which I've also said before), make its DPS penalty per-use rather than a constant tax.
I can see SMN losing Resurrect, but I can't imagine any world where BLM gets access to a Raise even as a role action. Not to mention that that would mean giving a Raise to any future casters.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

On the other hand, those were players, not devs (who have been rather quiet about RDM all expansion aside from the MP buffs in direct defiance of that bankruptcy).

Personally I'd say heavily reduce its frequency for RDM without making a role version (like giving it a CD/limited charges), or as Shurri suggested (which I've also said before), make its DPS penalty per-use rather than a constant tax.
I can see SMN losing Resurrect, but I can't imagine any world where BLM gets access to a Raise even as a role action. Not to mention that that would mean giving a Raise to any future casters.

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The thing with raise is that just having it will incur a tax. It doesn't matter if you get penalized for using it. Just being able to raise is the issue, having it in your back pocket. Being able to raise a dead healer, when a BLM cannot is what causes BLM to get that boosted rebate DPS. "You don't have a raise of any form so here take extra damage for your troubles." Trading Recovery Utility for Damage is a terrible bartering system, but its the system we're bound to at the moment.

I've though about what Kabooa has said before too, I think it might be too on the nail cheesy though. An OGCD that gives a healer back 1/4 of their MP, and makes their next raise instantcast. Put it on a 1 minute cool down and its pretty similar to SMN in raise potential, with each having their own weakness. A little convoluted but gives BLM an option for recovery support. Most BLMs wouldn't want that though Id wager.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Not even close, it would be a versatile caster/fighter hybrid with healing tools. You know... A Red Mage.


That sounds like more of a problem with raid design than anything else. RDM shouldn't be able to heal well enough to be the sole healer, but it *should* be able to heal well enough to be the secondary healer in a party with a single dedicated one. If the fights don't require a dedicated healer, then they should be made more healing-intensive.




I'm sure there are many ways they could go about it, but some ideas include making the heals themselves relatively weak but include beefy shields or strong regens.

They're not even trying with RDM right now, that's the problem.

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I would like this very much, and I agree, I would like red mage to BE a red mage and not a reskinned Black mage

People are asking for red mage to get rid of rez it's white magic kit like, if you don't like having a Rez, there's another selfish DPS job you can take, it's a black mage

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

I would like this very much, and I agree, I would like red mage to BE a red mage and not a reskinned Black mage

People are asking for red mage to get rid of rez it's white magic kit like, if you don't like having a Rez, there's another selfish DPS job you can take, it's a black mage

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it's not that people don't want white magic expansions, it's that there is a fine line to walk and what can be reasonably expected. if RDM got a weakned healing kit thats more effective in alot of scenarios than it realistically should be. you end up in a much more dire scenario where teams are taking RDM and the Best Healer and for a total of 5 dps. the reverse is what we're experiencing where RDM has so little WHM parts in it's kit, that it might just be easier to remove whats holding it back and expand on RDM in more dps positive scenarios. More raid buffs, more damage, more mobility, and things of that nature. If RDM were to get more defensive utility, it'd have to be weak enough that RDM can't realistically replace a healer but the job would still need to be comparable to BLM and SMNs performance to not be completely overshadowed. it basically needs to get defensive utility for free for this to be worth doing

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

RDM had both dualcast and raise as far back as FFV so it's not like it's unheard of.


What's clear is that you *want* that to be the end-of for my suggestion, but in reality, no. I don't want RDM to be a healer. I want it to be the versatile caster/fighter hybrid RDM is supposed to be, and that means it should be able to heal. Why do you think "This isn't a game where hybrids work"? There's absolutely no reason why a hybrid should simply not be able to work, that is just an excuse for someone who is either too lazy to make it work or simply doesn't want it to work.


You act like just because RDM has the capability to stand in for a healer that that automatically means every party is going to want a red mage to stand in for a healer. If your argument is "We need to stop Red Mage from being a Red Mage because then everyone would realize our game doesn't actually require two dedicated healers" then you might as well be saying the game should force people to take healers even when they aren't necessary. How is that supposed to be acceptable game design.

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What you're asking for is impossible. Just look at BLU.
Hybrid jobs don't work in this game, you either make RDM a healer or a dps and if it is a dps its healing tools must be weak enough that rdm doesn't jeopardize the whole healing role.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Hybrid jobs don't work in this game.

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Even as keen to agree as I may be... there's actually zero proof yet that hybrids wouldn't work in this game seeing as we have yet to see even a single non-comically haphazard attempt at such.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Even as keen to agree as I may be... there's actually zero proof yet that hybrids wouldn't work in this game seeing as we have yet to see even a single non-comically haphazard attempt at such.

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Let me answer your question with another question.

In any MMO has there ever been a hybrid that wasn't:

A) Shunned from group play, where specialization for efficiency is king, for being meh at everything
B) Only kept around for the one thing they inexplicably do well, for example WoW Paladin Auras or R(efresh)DM from FFXI
C) Only used in extremely niche circumstances, which somehow justifies it being absolute pants at every other part of the game.

FFXIV design wishes to make sure every class can at least beat any content within the 2 Tank, 2 Healer and 4 Damage framework. Remember Ramuh EX anyone? When Titan Egi could Tank it better than the gosh darned tanks so all the tanks where excluded for more damage dealers. I never seen S-E patch so fast.

And what suggestion from Katie Kitty?

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

beefy shields or strong regens.

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May as well delete SCH and AST right there and then.

But I know what this is. I've seen this waaaay too many times on this forum to count. It a good old fashioned "I don't care how many classes and other players get shafted as long as I get the vision of my Pet Class that I want."

Just another to add to my pile of examples that I will bring up when people whine about BLU favoring identity over substance.

B) Only kept around for the one thing they inexplicably do well, for example WoW Paladin Auras or R(efresh)DM from FFXI


FFXI Dancer can heal using it's Curing Walts using TP for healing, as long as your ACC hits and use your steps ( Box step, quick step, Feather step or stutter step) and use reverse flourish to get your TP back from performing Finishing Moved, you can perform as a healer if necessary.

And Dancer can acts like a hybrid but could also be a good Debuffing DD job


Also Red mage isn't there for Refreshing anymore, they have GEO and BRD from that now

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

FFXI Dancer can heal using it's Curing Walts using TP for healing, as long as your ACC hits and use your steps ( Box step, quick step, Feather step or stutter step) and use reverse flourish to get your TP back from performing Finishing Moved, you can perform as a healer if necessary.

And Dancer can acts like a hybrid but could also be a good Debuffing DD job

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Sing it with me now!

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A) Shunned from group play, where specialization for efficiency is king, for being meh at everything

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To be fair people only used the class for Sub Jobbing. Doesn't really help when your best part is making another job better.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

Also Red mage isn't there for Refreshing anymore, they have GEO and BRD from that now

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So what you are saying is RDM got bumped down from:

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B) Only kept around for the one thing they inexplicably do well

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To

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A) Shunned from group play, where specialization for efficiency is king, for being meh at everything

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In summation, the problem with RDM is the Trinity?

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Originally Posted by Razard

Snip

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To be fair, I main Dancer with a subjob for /WAR to get the best damage output for me

My point I'm getting at is there is room for hybrid, while a white mage can perform better at healing, if played right or if the white mage does, can be a good healer

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"So what you are saying is RDM got bumped down from:
B) Only kept around for the one thing they inexplicably do well
To
A) Shunned from group play, where specialization for efficiency is king, for being meh at everything

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And no, red mage is not shunned from group play, i see people asking for Red mage for endgame content all the time in FFXI in the chat

Here is a guide for you for FFXI red mage since you don't know what FFXI red mage is anymore


https://youtu.be/weFGFpHmcNY

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

I've though about what Kabooa has said before too, I think it might be too on the nail cheesy though. An OGCD that gives a healer back 1/4 of their MP, and makes their next raise instantcast. Put it on a 1 minute cool down and its pretty similar to SMN in raise potential, with each having their own weakness. A little convoluted but gives BLM an option for recovery support. Most BLMs wouldn't want that though Id wager.

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The thing is you could remove the 'instant cast raise' part and leave it as a 1 minute CD. This gives it a fair amount of flexibility all around. It's MP for the healers, it's MP for Paladin, it's MP for Dark Knight if that changed (I haven'ted tested since can't), it's just a bundle of MP that anyone can use. It satisfies two of the three things Raise brings, and it can, with Sharpcasts increased frequency, be utilized more often with optimization in mind and not just recovery.

One of the first non-potency suggestions that came up in Deltascape was making Mana Shift better and exclusive to Black Mage.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

snip

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So anecdotes and a vid that I don't care to watch.

Ok hun this has been an adorable non sequitur, but it doesn't really help anything or really help what "afflicts" RDM in this game. And good job admitting that a lot of the complaints are "It isn't FFXI (insert pet job) so it sucks". New and original.

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Originally Posted by Wolfsbane706

In summation, the problem with RDM is the Trinity?

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That's the excuse, not necessarily the problem. People either don't have the guts or the creativity to make it work.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

The thing with raise is that just having it will incur a tax. It doesn't matter if you get penalized for using it. Just being able to raise is the issue, having it in your back pocket. Being able to raise a dead healer, when a BLM cannot is what causes BLM to get that boosted rebate DPS. "You don't have a raise of any form so here take extra damage for your troubles."

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Sure, and I have no expectation RDM would be equal in DPS potential to BLM in such a case -- granting that that would already be true regardless so long as RDM has Embolden and BLM has minimal utility potential.

And on the other hand, even with the ability to Mana Shift to a healer to give them a free and instant rez, RDM's utility would still be of higher value in that department than BLM purely because it isn't reliant on meeting halfway and having someone else finish the job for you; if all the healers are dead, Mana Shift means nothing. If RDM's recovery potential was drastically reduced without being removed on the other hand, not only would the rezbot meme die off but its value would diminish, thereby creating space for other, more frequent but weaker utilities to fill the space.

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Originally Posted by Razard

So anecdotes and a vid that I don't care to watch.

Ok hun this has been an adorable non sequitur, but it doesn't really help anything or really help what "afflicts" RDM in this game. And good job admitting that a lot of the complaints are "It isn't FFXI (insert pet job) so it sucks". New and original.

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What? Your saying that FFXI is a Refresh Not while it's not like that in current FFXI so it seemed like you needed an update.

FFXI red mage is what a red mage should be I think, FFXIV red mage should also use enfeebling spells

Well to be fair, FFXIV battle is a shallow pond of water, there is no depth, just DPS, and that's someone whose been playing the game since 2.0

If FFXIV had a Support Role, Red mage, Bard, Dancer,Summoner would fit right in

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

What? Your saying that FFXI is a Refresh Not while it's not like that in current FFXI so it seemed like you needed an update.

FFXI red mage is what a red mage should be I think, FFXIV red mage should also use enfeebling spells

Well to be fair, FFXIV battle is a shallow pond of water, there is no depth, just DPS, and that's someone whose been playing the game since 2.0

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He's probably speaking from someone who played during XI's lvl 75 heyday, as oppose to what it is now. And as someone who also played XI I think he exaggerates, but I don't think he's wrong in how he addresses the way XI handled RDM and the other jobs.
And not to be rude or anything, but you pretty much proved his point in that you let your experience from XI cloud the way you see other iterations of the jobs in other games. It almost feels like you'd much rather go play XI's version of the jobs than XIV. Which is fine, but you shouldn't expect XIV to take direct notes from XI. That's just unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by Auryan

He's probably speaking from someone who played during XI's lvl 75 heyday, as oppose to what it is now. And as someone who also played XI I think he exaggerates, but I don't think he's wrong in how he addresses the way XI handled RDM and the other jobs.
And not to be rude or anything, but you pretty much proved his point in that you let your experience from XI cloud the way you see other iterations of the jobs in other games. It almost feels like you'd much rather go play XI's version of the jobs than XIV. Which is fine, but you shouldn't expect XIV to take direct notes from XI. That's just unrealistic.

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I started ffxi last year and I was blown away how much depth the battle system and jobs are from FFXIV.

So I didn't let XI cloud my judgement nor am I speaking from nostalgia

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

I started ffxi last year and I was blown away how much depth the battle system and jobs are from FFXIV.

So I didn't let XI cloud my judgement nor am I speaking from nostalgia

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I didn't say your bias comes from a place of nostalgia. It could very well be a recency bias type of deal. Regardless, you suggested XIV's RDM should be more like XI's RDM's, because...why? Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't mind seeing some supportive abilities for RDM, but I take an issue of just lifting things from XI. Seeing XIV's get Slow, Paralyze and some en-spells would just be lame.

And it's nice to see someone play XI. I played XI around mid 2000s to about 2010. My first MMO actually. I look back on it fondly, but I'm very critical of what I remember. It was/is an amazing, but deeply flawed game. And what it could get away with, wouldn't work for XIV. And vice-versa.

If we went with FFXI RDM we should give it refresh and let it sit in the back as a healer since that's how most people used it in 11 and since the sub job system isn't in place to allow for it to do other things. In all seriousness though, this was bound to happen and the job probably will get boosted in DPS here soon. Probably some potency buffs. As for wanting something super creative thought with jobs and a more in depth system? You're probably not going to get that. Outside of Savage raids, FF14 doesn't take much thought to get through most of it's content. And if this were like 11, the job balance would be way worse. At least 14 doesn't let a job sit far behind the rest for several years.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

If FFXIV had a Support Role, Red mage, Bard, Dancer,Summoner would fit right in

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Oh yes I remember Summoner being a "Support" class in FFXI. Do you know how many of my own spells I used for leveling in groups?

None.

Also Thanks for proving my point. This has been a nice little aside, but unless you want to address my actual point in my original post, which was how does any of this help RDM in THIS game, good day. By the way XIV isn't "shallow" It just doesn't have arbitrary rip currents that suck you underwater.