The Blue Mage Argument at a glance

I really wonder if the BLU design stems from 14's current refusal to allow customization of jobs.

I loved the cross-job skills of the original design. I thought the role actions were boring by comparison, and now we just get everything, which is even more boring.

BLU by its very nature has too many skills, so you have to customize. But no other job is like that.

Instead of making BLU the outlier and banning it from content, I wish more jobs had the ability to pick and choose abilities. It would help with hotbar bloat and make your job feel more personal.

Yes, I would appreciate seeing more people express a desire to work towards a unified solution instead of this "us or them" mentality that is rampant.

One thing is certain, if SE decides to go through with readjusting Blue Mage so that it is compatible with the raid scene, if they wish to not destroy what they have already created for the job, they will be forced to expand the usual limitations of what a job can do. Which I consider to be a good thing.

In a sense, it could be argued that Limited Jobs are expanding the usual limitations, but I would only consider that to be true if Blue Mage was a means to an end. I don't consider it to be an expansion of the existing system when it's a separate system of its own that is kept apart.

SE hasn't given us any indication that the Limited title is intended to be lifted at any point in the future. If anything, the opposite was heavily implied, with references to how the Limited system can be used to implement other jobs that "wouldn't work" in their MMO. Anything can work. It just has to be adapted. And there are ways to do that without forcing it into a cookie-cutter formula.

If we truly were mistaken about how far SE intends to take Limited Jobs, I would have expected word from a community manager by now. "Hey guys! Just so we're clear, the development team wants to raise Blue Mage to level 80 during Shadowbringers' patch cycle. Sorry for the misunderstanding." A comment such as that would go a long way to quell the concerns that many players have expressed. And yet, here we are, a month later, with no words of reassurance given to the community.

And that is why I say that the community should be vocal. We should want and express a desire for SE to take what is good about Limited jobs and have it applied to future jobs that are compatible with their existing formula. Blue Mage included.

You Guys Don't get it do you there is a Reason behind SE Actions for Blue Mage or Game + and this is their way to do things Backwards. Congrats You can now become Level 70 get to the 1 - 50 Zones? Congrats your Level 80 GET to Level 1-50 Zones, Congrats your Level 90 get to the loveable 1-50 Zones, Congrats your 100 do the 1-50 Zones They are going so far as mark they must do Level 1 to 50 Zones Locked down and if Must be Ad's saying get to 1-50 Zones. why Because of the Must needed New Players. Just because they say you can be Level 70 in the Game + doesn't mean they don't want New Players not to see you there. When MMO's get up to higher Levels lets say 80's the low levels become empty and what would happen if you were a new player either wonder where all the player base is and hope to catch up or well leave which is most of what happens. notice when they said that if you start Game plus you will have to do the whole story and can't do just certain Quest. we have low end Servers instead of shutting them down by merging Servers lets get the players to Visit them. The whole Fanfest was a Catch 22. To be Blue Mage you must first level up a Class\Job to level 50 where you can unlock The Blue Mage where you will go back through the 1 to 50 Zones and you will be seen in the open where the new player base will see you except you can not do all things like Deep Dungeon (where they can't see you) or PVP where they will not be until level 30. We will get new players and they will stay longer if they have someone there in the same Zones they are in. And if this doesn't work well we are getting Trust. now normally New players would receive a Story skip which would be easy but not the Class\Job skip to many Jobs in the game to pick from to make them all lets say 70 to keep up and what about all the story they would skip out on. Yes they could do Game + but how many new players would do that???

ng+ could be a boon to people doing extra jobs, plus theres a bunch of really awesome quests i want to be able to do again (drk 30/50, that one quest where you fight raubahn, or the nadaam <3)

as for blue, using the current setup to make it dfable is completely possible based on current knowledge (once we have the full list of abilities maybe not? but i doubt ALL of their abilities are going to have potencies in the broken range or nearing logos awesome)

first off, make 5-7 slots in the 24 slot book require a certain type of spell like single target, cone, AoE, buff, CC, line, heal. having these basics covered allows you to df while still allowing blues to be distinct (ie blue 1 likes bad breath but blue 2 prefers flamethrower, while blue 3 has hecatomb wave as their required, and blue 4 has all of those because he loves cone spells and has all his free slots filled with them)

to cover level sync give each spell slot a level threshold they become accessible (ie satasha you have access to the first 9 spell slots, by 50 you can use all 24) this puts blue action count and versatility somewhat in line with other classes at x level (but given the very role action feel of the spellbook it means blues keep their aesthetic intact but arent slinging everything at low levels)

beyond that ilvl sync, potency, and contractual boss immunity takes care of the actual mechanical issues with balance blue might have

Blue Mage is intended to solo level-synced content.
This means it needs to be able to do what a full party does. Which at the most fundamental level means its average potency has to be 2.5x that of any other dps.
Even before you consider the gimmicks like level 5 death, its already going to be overpowered once its skills have been acquired, and utterly impotent before.
There is no middle ground, especially given that this is a horizontal progression job. You're not supposed to collect all of the skills in a weekend then throw it into raids, collected the skills is the challenge, working out which skills you need in order to do x content so that you can learn y skill to do z content...

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Blue Mage is intended to solo level-synced content. This means it needs to be able to do what a full party does.

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Source? I never heard this anywhere.

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Originally Posted by GrenGarm

Source? I never heard this anywhere.

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The trailers shows you soloing Shiva.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

The trailers shows you soloing Shiva.

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The Shadowbringers trailer shows switching jobs in the middle of combat. Doesn't mean it's going to happen that way.

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Originally Posted by GrenGarm

The Shadowbringers trailer shows switching jobs in the middle of combat. Doesn't mean it's going to happen that way.

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You're seriously comparing ingame footage to prerendered cgi?

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

There is no middle ground, especially given that this is a horizontal progression job. You're not supposed to collect all of the skills in a weekend then throw it into raids, collected the skills is the challenge, working out which skills you need in order to do x content so that you can learn y skill to do z content...

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Middle ground would have been to have a way to still have this OP solo job as a DF setting or toggle and a combat job that could be used in the full game. It's not an either or scenario. It would definitely take a large amount of resources so why is it fine for one group of players to ask for something and not another group? Most taking part in this debate could have got the type of content that they are MOST interested in without it being at the cost of what the others want.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Middle ground would have been to have a way to still have this OP solo job as a DF setting or toggle and a combat job that could be used in the full game. It's not an either or scenario. It would definitely take a large amount of resources so why is it fine for one group of players to ask for something and not another group? Most taking part in this debate could have got the type of content that they are MOST interested in without it being at the cost of what the others want.

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Sure, you can have your cake and eat it, but that requires two cakes.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Sure, you can have your cake and eat it, but that requires two cakes.

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Would be less work to be done on the animations since those could be shared and more work on the concept and balancing side. Probably not much more than adding any other combat job unless they did add a multi role or talent system. I still don't see a problem with that. That would be way to start pushing past the trinity system so that would be a good thing.

A lot of us were asking for a blu that we could main and we will still be asking for it.

theres nothing in the overworld that needs blue mage to be more powerful than the weakest job currently in the game since the world is currently balanced for solo players (hell there are times when ive killed overworld mobs 9 levels above me for hunts), and blue mages have access to pf for grouped content, so if blue mage is so op that they break the party system and the triad supposedly... why allow them into parties in the first place?

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Middle ground would have been to have a way to still have this OP solo job as a DF setting or toggle and a combat job that could be used in the full game. It's not an either or scenario. It would definitely take a large amount of resources so why is it fine for one group of players to ask for something and not another group? Most taking part in this debate could have got the type of content that they are MOST interested in without it being at the cost of what the others want.

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In what way would having an imbalanced kit -- where imbalance in nearly all cases reduces the number of viable choices one has available to them -- be more entertaining than simply having a balanced kit with some four times the normal amount of choices by which to make that kit?

It's kind of like asking for the unpolished product because of certain favorite quirks formed from the expense to other components of the design, rather than just the polished design. Given the polished design, all the unique gameplay can be provided by as little as reducing enemy status effect resistance. There's no unique advantage to the unpolished version. But there's a ton of stuff from which they'd be excluded by the unpolished version.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Sure, you can have your cake and eat it, but that requires two cakes.

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Except in this case it's not two distinct products. You get half a cake to eat, or you get the whole cake. In the first case, only half the cake was ever made anyways; in the latter case, the whole. Development time is not split between producing a solo-content oriented BLU and broadly viable BLU. It just requires more (broadly beneficial, to all jobs, not just BLU) features and mechanics that allow for the solo job its broad viability and balance and to allow for a larger plethora of choices for each fight, rather than merely taking Death and being done with it because "it's traditional (to one-shot fights?)". At present we're aimed towards Magica Wheel type play, only a fourth at most of the abilities being viable at a time according to the fight being approached, rather than each skill having actual synergies and relative value. That's the difference. Reducing BLU to solo play only does not uniquely retain any characteristic qualities of BLU; it merely allows you to half-ass the design.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

In what way would having an imbalanced kit -- where imbalance in nearly all cases reduces the number of viable choices one has available to them -- be more entertaining than simply having a balanced kit with some four times the normal amount of choices by which to make that kit?

It's kind of like asking for the unpolished product because of certain favorite quirks formed from the expense to other components of the design, rather than just the polished design. Given the polished design, all the unique gameplay can be provided by as little as reducing enemy status effect resistance. There's no unique advantage to the unpolished version. But there's a ton of stuff from which they'd be excluded by the unpolished version.

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I'm not advocating for THIS OP solo job but I also don't have a problem with it as long as there is a way for blu to be used in the full game. I've been saying for awhile now that I'm in favor of most players getting what they want but not at the cost of what others want. You and I are on the same "side" in the limited job debate. I remember you having a much more intense and fleshed out concept for how I thought blu was going to be. My impression from this debate has been that a loooot of players want to get rid of the trinity system or at least push what is allowed within it. Then just some feel limited jobs is a good way to get there, some think it could get us there, and then some of us think it's the wrong way or won't get us there at all.

I'm not against A OP solo job but don't feel this is the way it should be done. I'm all for the onion knight/freelancer/mimic concept (that could use the framework that has already been built for limited blu) that could have a lot larger scope of gameplay. That people could build their solo job through that and then complete a challenge. That would then allow you to take the solo job that the player has built outside of that system and into what would be allowed under the "limited job" rules. I'm against the proposed version of limited jobs but not entirely against the idea. “The man who chases two rabbits catches none.” I want SE to make sure that they have a good hold on the rabbit they already caught (those of us that were mostly fine with the game as is) before going after the other rabbit (those that didn't like the game as is or have been complaining a lot about it). That turning a very requested job into side content is risking loosing the rabbit they already caught. It's similar to the mistake other companies in the industry are making. Assuming their established customers will still be there while they try to attract a new type of customer. Those companies that have done it right gave the established base something while showing off the new thing that could appeal to other audiences. IF limited jobs were something that was just more content that you could choose to do and not take away jobs from the full game I would be fine with it. If SE then turned the limited job concept into something that was larger than "learn enemy spells and a Carnival" and was something they could build up instead of multiple separate boxes then I would be a huge advocate for that.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

You're seriously comparing ingame footage to prerendered cgi?

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What's the difference? It's a trailer. Just because they don't show anyone else in the frame doesn't mean you're intended to solo raid bosses. That's a huge assumption with no basis in fact.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

The trailers shows you soloing Shiva.

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Originally Posted by GrenGarm

The Shadowbringers trailer shows switching jobs in the middle of combat. Doesn't mean it's going to happen that way.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

You're seriously comparing ingame footage to prerendered cgi?

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I have to agree with Seraphor here. The implication was pretty strong not just from the clip, but when and how it was presented (e.g. among what text to the same implication).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I have to agree with Seraphor here. The implication was pretty strong not just from the clip, but when and how it was presented (e.g. among what text to the same implication).

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I got to agree, this is definitely being geared to the solo end of the spectrum which to be fair does seem to be a major theme throughout the systems they are implementing in the expansion from the details we have gotten. While I have been a strong voice in asking for reason. The calls for passionate people to continue to speak out are not unfounded. I think there is a lot more at play here than any of us can fully understand however I must agree with one sentiment. This does not have to be a all or nothing approach.

However with that said. We are getting it one set way. We know this, it's an indisputable fact. We are getting the implementation we are getting. Now before I get killed here let me say this as well. We need to accept the fact that this limited job system is not going anywhere however this does not mean that we should become complacent in asking for better or more.

I also have to agree that using in game footage as part of a comparison with a pre-rendered cinematic is... foolhardy at best, but the in game footage should also be taken with a grain of salt. How many times have we seen in game footage that is just Yoshi P's lala getting smacked around? The solo BLU in the Shiva fight was nothing more than footage showing that some primal abilities would be learnable and I don't read anything more into it than that.

But hey few more weeks and we'll at least be able to play it and we can start seeing some real interesting posts backed by experience and I'm excited for that.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

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I agree with your most of your post but want to bring up a couple of things.

I would add the Shiva footage was also to show that BLU would be able to stun them. We don't know how often or how reliable that move will be. Just that it will be possible.

The game will be getting this limited job just as they have announced and there is no changing that. But this only has to apply to Shadowbringers. The 6.0 expac could change limited jobs to be something different like what I've said I would be completely in favor of instead of adding BST and/or PUP as they are with BLU at this time. It will all depend on the feedback they got now and in the coming months.

It is passion that is pushing a lot of us to speak out on how BLU is coming to the game at this time. Be that from people that wanted to main blu, those that worry their favorite job could be added in a limited state one day, and people that are just flat out against solo content. I'm in that first group and can empathize with the second. The third group I don't agree with. I also think that some of us also have played WoW for years and are concerned that XIV can be starting down a similar path. Putting out more and more various types of content that are not just little pieces of content or mini games but something that will take a decent amount of resources to be invested for a long term. WoW started to do this I'd say back in 2012 and some would argue before that. That resources and dev time started to be spread more and more thing until you started to see a lot of content become more shallow. Then those devs felt they had to either put rewards so good that it basically "forced" players into content they didn't want to take part in or intentionally make it almost impossible to reach your end goal that you kept running the correct type of content over and over and over. I don't think XIV would do exactly that but probably just have so many shallow pieces of content that don't do much to convince people they are worth subbing each month. This is why I would like to see THIS version of limited jobs scrapped and a singular limited job system take its place or some other form of solo content that is open to all jobs.

Alright, I'll freely admit after the new live letter I'm a bit confused as to why it was so important to do this limited system outside of the whole Mighty Guard tank stance thing. I mean it's definitely got most of the base line to build multiple rotations and even the potential to fill multiple roles, but yea... definitely more confused now than what I was as to the importance of this limited job system... That live letter left me with more questions than answers.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Alright, I'll freely admit after the new live letter I'm a bit confused as to why it was so important to do this limited system outside of the whole Mighty Guard tank stance thing. I mean it's definitely got most of the base line to build multiple rotations and even the potential to fill multiple roles, but yea... definitely more confused now than what I was as to the importance of this limited job system... That live letter left me with more questions than answers.

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Even more now does it seem to me that blu could have been made into a full job and been the first multi-role job. Looks like work was done towards that goal and then they decided to not do it.

Were you still interested in making that thread? I've checked a couple of times if it was up so I could show my support but I suppose it would take some time to write.

yeah cause honestly if a tank is getting out tanked by an mdps with tank stance on (that is likely to die to the first tankbuster anyway)... you really need to up your gear or get better at aggro management, and this is from someone who mains smn and pal

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Even more now does it seem to me that blu could have been made into a full job and been the first multi-role job. Looks like work was done towards that goal and then they decided to not do it.

Were you still interested in making that thread? I've checked a couple of times if it was up so I could show my support but I suppose it would take some time to write.

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I do still plan to write a thread on the limited system and my concerns with it, but it will be a bit with the holidays, and i do still plan to wrtie a post on my feedback on blue mage but both will likely be done after the patch notes are released and i have taken some time to experience both. Though I do plan to start writing my concerns on the limited system tonight when i get home from work.