Make relics have the same iLVL as the Raid weapons and released at the same time

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

I would be totally favorable to a relic that requires a very light grind, but also requires to complete the hardest content in the game. In that case, there wouldn't be anything wrong with a BiS relic. Unfortunately, the dev team wants the relic to be locked behind content that anyone can easily clear, so that's not going to happen.

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Of course they do, because they want casual players to keep playing their game so they stay subbed longer.

Do people just not understand where the money in the MMO markets is nowadays?

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Originally Posted by Lumis_Arvalo

Of course they do, because they want casual players to keep playing their game so they stay subbed longer.

Do people just not understand where the money in the MMO markets is nowadays?

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I never said they're wrong. I perfectly understand why they do that. Still, I believe their system has a lot of room for improvement.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

I would be totally favorable to a relic that requires a very light grind, but also requires to complete the hardest content in the game. In that case, there wouldn't be anything wrong with a BiS relic. Unfortunately, the dev team wants the relic to be locked behind content that anyone can easily clear, so that's not going to happen.

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Where is even the point in locking all the stuff behind raiding?

This game already has Ex trail weapons, savage raid weapons, ultimate raid weapons and you get the upgrade token for the tomestone weapon also from the savage raid (until they put in in the 24 man raid in a few months).

Isn't that enough weapons locked behind harder content? There really should be other options to get weapons too, and the relic is one of these options and should not be taken away.

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Originally Posted by Lumis_Arvalo

Bottom line is that the tomestome weapon is higher ilevel because it takes 7 weeks of real-world time for a non-raider to get for a single class (which can't be circumvented without raiding), while the relic weapon can theoretically be obtained by a non-raider very quickly and at their own pace. Does the relic require more effort put into it to get? Absolutely, but the time-gating is the big factor here as the tomestone weapon is intended to be a long-term carrot-on-the-stick for non-raiders that keeps them subbed.

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I think it's hard to say whether it takes more time or effort for relic grinds. I mean, I'm not a "hardcore" raider, it took my group like 6 weeks, raiding 9ish hours per week, to finally down 11s and move on to M+F. Average groups are still on 11s after nearly 8 weeks. So you got 50ish hours worth of time in one, put 50 hours in the other and it's probably about the same results, and of course there's hardcore types on both sides that will get it done much faster. Overall I'd lean towards more time and effort being required for raid rewards, there's too many factors outside the content itself that have no equivalent in a relic grind. From building and maintaining a raid group to dealing with schedule conflicts, egos, strategies, performance, etc etc

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Originally Posted by Lumis_Arvalo

I know a number of people who had their first elemental weapon within a week of Pagos dropping. I'll agree that's not the "norm", but let's not act like these people don't exist.

Bottom line is that the tomestome weapon is higher ilevel because it takes 7 weeks of real-world time for a non-raider to get for a single class (which can't be circumvented without raiding), while the relic weapon can theoretically be obtained by a non-raider very quickly and at their own pace. Does the relic require more effort put into it to get? Absolutely, but the time-gating is the big factor here as the tomestone weapon is intended to be a long-term carrot-on-the-stick for non-raiders that keeps them subbed.



So you want a weapon that was designed to be for casual players to grind out over time to be gated behind items that come from raid content, and thus be for raiders? That's... really dumb. That's not what the relic is supposed to be in this game. If that's how it was in FFXI and you enjoyed that, then go back to FFXI. That system sounds terrible for a game like this.

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There you go again with the idiotic "go play FFXI if you love it so much" mentality just because someone suggest something from said game.
There are already plenty of weapons you can get if you are not committed to raiding. Coincidentally, if you're not into raids, then why do you even need/want such a strong weapon? There is no need for it. The relic system in this game makes no sense to me.

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Originally Posted by RyoXander

There you go again with the idiotic "go play FFXI if you love it so much" mentality just because someone suggest something from said game.
There are already plenty of weapons you can get if you are not committed to raiding. Coincidentally, if you're not into raids, then why do you even need/want such a strong weapon? There is no need for it. The relic system in this game makes no sense to me.

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There are already weapons you can get if you're committed to raiding (raid weapon, early access to tomestone weapon, Ultimate weapon (when applicable). Coincidentally, if you're not into speedrunning or Ultimate (a fraction of the already small raiding community), why do you even need/want such a strong weapon? There is no need for it.

I wonder why people using the "you don't need it" argument conveniently forget only a minute fraction of raiders actually need that ilvl?
Because if you apply it honestly to the whole playerbase, it falls apart.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

I wonder why people using the "you don't need it" argument conveniently forget only a minute fraction of raiders actually need that ilvl?
Because if you apply it honestly to the whole playerbase, it falls apart.

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Then by this logic relic weapon doesn't need to be the same strength as raid weapons, either. If raiders don't need the extra item level than neither do non-raiders, right?

If people desire a meaningful reward for grinding then you best participate in meaningful content. AFK content simply shouldn't carry the same reward as challenging content. Pretty much the end of the story bro.

That being, as another poster alluded to, perhaps they should have multiple paths for completing relic quests. Maybe Eureka could take you so far but to get further you'd have to do extremes and/or savage until the next catch-up patch. Or make it possible to skip Eureka (or equivalent future steps) by completing the raids or whatever. I'd be down with something like that.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

That being, as another poster alluded to, perhaps they should have multiple paths for completing relic quests. Maybe Eureka could take you so far but to get further you'd have to do extremes and/or savage until the next catch-up patch. Or make it possible to skip Eureka (or equivalent future steps) by completing the raids or whatever. I'd be down with something like that.

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Raiders already receive enough benefits from higher end content. How about no. Extremes though I could deal with. I don't need a relic to be on par with raiding weapons, but again, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. They usually get there, or close to it, at the final step. And that's perfectly fine.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Raiders already receive enough benefits from higher end content. How about no. Extremes though I could deal with. I don't need a relic to be on par with raiding weapons, but again, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. They usually get there, or close to it, at the final step. And that's perfectly fine.

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Come again? Raiders have access to higher ilvl drops for only four months at best plus a weapon only five ilvls higher. That's hardly any benefit at all, especially when most games don't allow people to catch up to raid relevant gear nearly as quickly as FFXIV does. Well, apparently, WoW went down that path with BfA and people aren't happy about it.

One of the primary complaints if a fair amount of non-raiders have is that nothing lasts in this game. This is due to SE making it so casual players can always catch up easily whereas in many other games, you'd be told to either do the hardest content or settle with lesser gear.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Raiders already receive enough benefits from higher end content. How about no. Extremes though I could deal with. I don't need a relic to be on par with raiding weapons, but again, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things. They usually get there, or close to it, at the final step. And that's perfectly fine.

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An average static will need around 50-60 hours to clear a whole savage tier. Then you need to be lucky with your drops, because given how the weekly lockout works, you can easily go several weeks without dropping anything. If you're unlucky, you will have to kill the final floor eight times to make sure you obtain the weapon. The average raider will not see the weapon for the first 2-3 months. And things get even worse if we're talking about gear that drops in the first 2 turns. Finally, if you're pugging savage good luck, you probably won't even be able to obtain your weapon.

I honestly think that non-raiders don't really understand how terrible the weekly lockout in savage is and severely underestimate the amount of time and effort that raiding requires.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

An average static will need around 50-60 hours to clear a whole savage tier. Then you need to be lucky with your drops, because given how the weekly lockout works, you can easily go several weeks without dropping anything. If you're unlucky, you will have to kill the final floor eight times to make sure you obtain the weapon. The average raider will not see the weapon for the first 2-3 months. And things get even worse if we're talking about gear that drops in the first 2 turns. Finally, if you're pugging savage good luck, you probably won't even be able to obtain your weapon.

I honestly think that non-raiders don't really understand how terrible the weekly lockout in savage is and severely underestimate the amount of time and effort that raiding requires.

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Fair enough. I suppose you are right in that people who don't really raid probably don't "get it" and I never really looked at it this way personally.