Dear Healers who don't DPS

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Originally Posted by NinjaTaru72

I swear, wasn't there some comment by yoshi about healers not being dps?

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From what I heard he doesn't like it. But last I remember he made a comment on it and said it's not mandatory, you don't have to dps as a healer. And that did not settle well for the pro healer dps crowd.

You could make damage spells cost no mana, have no cast time, all be oGCD and have a 1 second recast and these healers wouldn't DPS. I recently broke my right wrist (dominant hand) and I stilll DPS and heal in dungeons. It's not a matter of skill. There is something fundamentally off in the heads of these players. I wouldn't bother with them. Avoiding commending them and kick from party whenever possible.

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Originally Posted by NinjaTaru72

If SE wants healers to heal... When you get into a party of 4+, they should reduce healers dps potency to nothing. I'm sure they could get it in the system. That would be a good definitive way to say "hey, healers are healers, not dps"

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That's a great way to turn off a bunch of people from healing. I'm a heal main and I wouldn't touch dungeons for TEN cracked clusters if you told me I couldn't DPS in those instances. This isn't an MMO that requires constant healing. If you're telling me to stand around and do nothing just to settle a stupid forum argument, then hi there will be one more DPS player clogging up the queue.

If a healer doesn't want to DPS that's on them. I won't comm them and if they /follow and endlessly spam heals on full-health people I will curse myself for coming as a different role. But telling one side or the other "You must/shouldn't DPS!" is stupid.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Thankfully the game isn't as one dimensional and narrow viewed as your reference. Might want to check that comment in it's entirety.

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I dug out the full quote:

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Q3.) So...healers now have their DPS scale with Mind AND accuracy is no longer an issue. Do you think this will lead to players having even higher expectations of healers to contribute DPS to content since it is a much easier thing to do now?

A.) First of all, we do not expect healers to contribute to DPS. However we know a lot of the cutting edge players enjoy this aspect about the job and that those progressing in the raids early on use it help clear the fights. We decided to make it so that the idea was more approachable and less punishing so that if a player wants to try it, they aren’t sacrificing all of their healing capabilities to do so like they were with the old Cleric Stance. We didn’t like seeing healers doing entire dungeons in Cleric Stance, especially if they forget to switch back and heal!

That being said, and I want you to really reinforce this to your viewers, I firmly believe it shouldn’t be mandatory and we do NOT have the expectation of them to DPS.

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So it's not a 100% "no, healers don't DPS!" but they didn't like seeing healers spending half the fight DPSing. So if you're going to make snide remarks, perhaps you yourself should read the entire quote.

There's also this, which is about how they do not include healer DPS numbers when balancing fights:

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Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible. While we could take this into account, and assume a different item level in the next update which would then make it impossible to clear even with the healer DPS, we'd eliminate this type of play for highly skilled players who use communication, items, and a high level of understanding to come up with those last second clears. That would be a tough decision to make, so I still think it should be up to each party's own plans.

This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be.

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So the game is clearly not designed around an expectation of healers NEEDING to DPS.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

So the game is clearly not designed around an expectation of healers NEEDING to DPS.

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If you look at the latter quote, healer DPS is required to beat the raids for at least until the party has reached the intended item level (and even after that unless the DDs and tanks are playing at 85%-90% of their capacity, in which case, it makes no sense for the healers in the same group to be playing at below 50% of their capacity...).

But more importantly, the question isn't if healer DPS is 100% required for the party to beat a fight. The question is, are healers able to contribute to the party DPS while covering the fight's healing requirements, and since the answer to that question is yes, they should. Especially since if they don't contribute, they will be significantly less active than their party members, which means they're making everyone else work harder than they themselves are willing to.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

So the game is clearly not designed around an expectation of healers NEEDING to DPS.

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No one said this game is designed around an expectation of healers needing to dps. Some people have just been smart enough to realize that dps is much more beneficial to the group than standing idle or healing people who are already at full hp. I don't really know why, but many people seem to struggle with this for some reason.

A fringe portion of the game's population requiring healer DPS to push at minimum ilvl to me hardly constitutes that the game is designed around the healers needing to DPS. Unfortunately, as he said, people watch those world first clear videos, see the healers DPSing, and for some reason use it to bash players in casual DF content, where you really shouldn't be expecting much anyways. Why treat this as some epic battle of fairness and ethics? It's just a daily roulette. Half the time DPS don't use their utility, I don't give them a hard time for "not working as hard" either. The majority of bards I have met in roulettes since SB was released don't even use songs, and that's a core part of their class!

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Why treat this as some epic battle of fairness and ethics? It's just a daily roulette. Half the time DPS don't use their utility, I don't give them a hard time for "not working as hard" either. The majority of bards I have met in roulettes since SB was released don't even use songs, and that's a core part of their class!

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I guess we just have different expectations for our party members? I do expect my healers to DPS (at least try to), my BRDs to sing and provide TP/MP, my melees to use Goad and so on. If they don't, I will point it out and give them advice so they can improve. If they refuse to co-operate, I may kick them. I think everyone should try to be active and effective party members when they participate in group content.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

The difference here is that no one is defending dps who don't use their utility.

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This too, I've only ever seen this kind of lazy "play style choice" defended for healers.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

A fringe portion of the game's population requiring healer DPS to push at minimum ilvl to me hardly constitutes that the game is designed around the healers needing to DPS. Unfortunately, as he said, people watch those world first clear videos, see the healers DPSing, and for some reason use it to bash players in casual DF content, where you really shouldn't be expecting much anyways. Why treat this as some epic battle of fairness and ethics? It's just a daily roulette. Half the time DPS don't use their utility, I don't give them a hard time for "not working as hard" either. The majority of bards I have met in roulettes since SB was released don't even use songs, and that's a core part of their class!

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The difference here is that no one is defending dps who don't use their utility.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I guess we just have different expectations for our party members? I do expect my healers to DPS (at least try to), my BRDs to sing and provide TP/MP, my melees to use Goad and so on. If they don't, I will point it out and give them advice so they can improve. If they refuse to co-operate, I may kick them. I think everyone should try to be active and effective party members when they participate in group content.

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It just comes down to that I don't think it's worth the effort. I don't think it's worth the time spent talking to someone who likely isn't going to listen, and I don't think it's worth the time waiting for somebody else to fill in the spot if we kick (you're not even supposed to kick for that stuff anyways, but SE has stopped caring about people who abuse vote kick). When I'm on a DPS class and the dungeon is going just fine without the healer DPSing, why am I going to throw a fit? It's just not worth it. I like to DPS as a healer. But I fully accept that there are those who don't. I just don't think it's worth it.

I think we can all come to the realization that it's unlikely anybody's minds will be changed here. I hope that one day SE will make it so that healers have to spend the majority of their time healing. But I just really don't think it's worth the energy to complain when people don't in DF.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

The difference here is that no one is defending dps who don't use their utility.

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When is the last time you've seen a thread solely directed at DPS who don't use their utility, with an OP such as this one, with a tank refusing to tank? My guess is never. Healer DPS threads seem to be a daily occurrence around here; even more frequent if you participate in FFXIV groups outside of the forums, like on Facebook, even MORE if you for some reason hang around shout chat in Rhalgr's Reach.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

It just comes down to that I don't think it's worth the effort. I don't think it's worth the time spent talking to someone who likely isn't going to listen[...]

I think we can all come to the realization that it's unlikely anybody's minds will be changed here.

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I guess I just have higher hopes for people than you do. :D Usually when I ask a healer to DPS, they do it, if even for a little. Similarly, often when I advice tanks on how to pull (in leveling content) or DDs on better rotations (those BLMs...) they do at least try. And I know that if someone will give me advice on a job I'm not very familiar with, I will gladly accept it.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

IWhen is the last time you've seen a thread solely directed at DPS who don't use their utility, with an OP such as this one, with a tank refusing to tank?

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Like said, it's probably because it's not really a matter of discussion, because you aren't likely to find anyone to defend such a "play style" (unlike for non-DPS healers). A while ago I did start a thread about DDs who never LB, though, and there are many posts about these kind of DD and tank players in the DF stories thread.

I would argue that people defend healers not DPSing because 1.) like with DPS using their utility (MP/TP restore, etc) it's almost never needed in DF content; I HAVE seen instances in groups where someone pointed out a DPS not using utility and the response from either them or the group was "let's just not worry about it" and 2.) when healers don't DPS, the reaction from people is, for some reason, much much stronger - like the OP. No wonder people have stopped playing healers.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

So the game is clearly not designed around an expectation of healers NEEDING to DPS.

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Content is tuned at ilvl 330

Groups start attempting content at ilvl 320.

Healer DPS will be required for the later turns usually until you have a month or so of tome gear under your belts. More so if your DPS aren't top notch

I'm sorry if you really can't grasp this.

Why are people still arguing about this? You don't need to DPS in most content indeed, but it also evidently makes you a terrible healer. If you ignore half of your class utility then you are not playing the class well enough.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

So it's not a 100% "no, healers don't DPS!" but they didn't like seeing healers spending half the fight DPSing. So if you're going to make snide remarks, perhaps you yourself should read the entire quote.

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And I hate to say it, but until they actually take a firm stance on this, encounter difficulties are going to continue being a joke.

The problem is simple: when designing a raid encounter, they need to design it with the idea that a certain percentage of players will get hit by avoidable damage and healers will need to heal them.

But when you toss a premade group in there, one that can basically ensure that no avoidable damage is taken, now you have 2 "Green DPS" that can make otherwise challenging DPS checks extremely easy to reach.

It makes the gap between a skilled raid group and a middling raid group THAT much bigger by making fights significantly easier if healers can DPS nearly the entire time.

By saying "We don't factor in healer DPS", they're basically saying "We design raid encounters with the expectation that 1-2 DPS will spend the entire fight dead because f**k logic!"

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Originally Posted by Elamys

When is the last time you've seen a thread solely directed at DPS who don't use their utility, with an OP such as this one,

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Front Page DPS forums. It's not utility per se, but it's not playing the class to the full potential.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...that-never-aoe

But by that logic, dps should never use VerCure, VerRaise, Raise(SMN), Second Wind, Blood Bath, Aggro reducing tools. Cause hey, it's not doing damage, what a DPS is supposed to do.

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

You could make damage spells cost no mana, have no cast time, all be oGCD and have a 1 second recast and these healers wouldn't DPS. I recently broke my right wrist (dominant hand) and I stilll DPS and heal in dungeons. It's not a matter of skill. There is something fundamentally off in the heads of these players. I wouldn't bother with them. Avoiding commending them and kick from party whenever possible.

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Are you calling them stupid for not wanting to dps..?

Speaking of the thread, I have a question that might be useful to all of us:

So, I encountered a case where one of my healer (WHM) deals way less damage than a melee LB3 in a Savage raid, at around 1/3rd of an LB3. The other healer (SCH) deals twice the LB3 damage. I heard that the O3S and O4S will only have tougher DPS checks. The problem is how I should approach this problem. Should I really tell this healer to output more DPS at this point? On a base scale, how much DPS does a healer need in Savage raids in order to be more passable in terms of team contribution?

Any help would be appreciated. :)

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Originally Posted by Rubiss

You could make damage spells cost no mana, have no cast time, all be oGCD and have a 1 second recast and these healers wouldn't DPS. I recently broke my right wrist (dominant hand) and I stilll DPS and heal in dungeons. It's not a matter of skill. There is something fundamentally off in the heads of these players. I wouldn't bother with them. Avoiding commending them and kick from party whenever possible.

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I mean, you're not WRONG, but at the same time, players who play healers often do so to HEAL, not to heal an average of 20% or less of the time and DPS the rest of the time.

I shelved my level 70 AST when I realized how little healing healers actually do in this game.

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Originally Posted by Lyrai_Celestine

Speaking of the thread, I have a question that might be useful to all of us:

So, I encountered a case where one of my healer (WHM) deals way less damage than a melee LB3 in a Savage raid, at around 1/3rd of an LB3. The other healer (SCH) deals twice the LB3 damage. I heard that the O3S and O4S will only have tougher DPS checks. The problem is how I should approach this problem. Should I really tell this healer to output more DPS at this point? On a base scale, how much DPS does a healer need in Savage raids in order to be more passable in terms of team contribution?

Any help would be appreciated. :)

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Things are different in savage. If your group needs the DPS to pass, than it needs the DPS to pass. But you also need to analyze more than just the numbers, you also need to look at the environment: is the WHM doing most of the healing?

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Content is tuned at ilvl 330

Groups start attempting content at ilvl 320.

Healer DPS will be required for the later turns usually until you have a month or so of tome gear under your belts. More so if your DPS aren't top notch

I'm sorry if you really can't grasp this.

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Do you realize how few people push raids at minimum ilvl? A few hardcore statics using healer DPS to push fights in the lowest possible gear does not constitute "fight is designed for healer DPS" which is a fact that is literally addressed in that quote. I'm really sorry if you can't grasp that.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Things are different in savage. If your group needs the DPS to pass, than it needs the DPS to pass. But you also need to analyze more than just the numbers, you also need to look at the environment: is the WHM doing most of the healing?

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My WHM's doing most of the healing, yet my SCH heals at almost the same rate. Still, you're right. I guess I should really tell the healer to improve DPS, but only when we die at enrage even with our best efforts and with no deaths. Healer DPS will be last scenario for me.

Thanks for the advice. :)

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Do you realize how few people push raids at minimum ilvl? A few hardcore statics using healer DPS to push fights in the lowest possible gear does not constitute "fight is designed for healer DPS" which is a fact that is literally addressed in that quote. I'm really sorry if you can't grasp that.

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A few statics?

Lets see now. Logs has 1114 unique groups listed with an O3S kill and 261 groups with O4S, that's not including successive kills, pugs or groups that just don't bother uploading, not to mention that's merged some FC's with multiple teams into one.

Let me make this as simple as I can for you:

The encounters are designed around a DPS baseline, if your group doesn't meet that, you may need your healers to help you get there.

Your obsession with 'THIS ISN'T DESIGNED FOR HEALER DPS' is a narrow minded viewpoint that is entirely missing the point. Healer DPS, Tank DPS, DPS DPS, it's all irrelevant. What matters here is the combined DPS of your entire group.

Does your group hit the check? If so, fantastic, GJ, heres hoping for good drops.

If you don't hit the check, you've got options. More casual groups might wait for more gear via tomes and early turn drops. Whereas more progression orientated groups (And there's more than a few) will turn to their healers and tanks to make up the gap rather than waiting until they have more gear down the line.

Are encounters designed for healer DPS? No, the caveat here of course is the level that the encounter was tuned to vs what you'll have when the content patch hits. Gordias was the most standout example of a tier with a bar that was set too high, whereas many would argue that with Creator, the bar was set too low. Where an individual's static sits in relation to that bar is what defines their healer dps requirements, not you, not I, nor anything anyone else preaches on this thread.

Do I need to DPS as a healer in my savage group? Yes? No? Both are the wrong answer. In reality the correct answer is much more complex.

The days of Gordias and Midas are long gone, early progression rewards flexibility as much as it does raw skill and gear. Stop thinking in hard black and white terms and look at the big picture for a minute.

Does that make sense to you?

As a side note, I'll also add that ironically, I think it was Yoshida refusing to factor in healer DPS that caused many of the issues with Creator and Zurvan in particular. Being able to push a phase early and skip key encounter gimmicks and in some cases, entire phases is one thing when you're overgearing an encounter. But it's entirely another thing when you're doing it within the first week or two because your group is putting out significantly more damage than the designers planned for. Thankfully it doesn't look like SE made the same mistake with Omega (Or my group sucks).

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Originally Posted by Lyrai_Celestine

So, I encountered a case where one of my healer (WHM) deals way less damage than a melee LB3 in a Savage raid, at around 1/3rd of an LB3. The other healer (SCH) deals twice the LB3 damage. I heard that the O3S and O4S will only have tougher DPS checks.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Things are different in savage. If your group needs the DPS to pass, than it needs the DPS to pass. But you also need to analyze more than just the numbers, you also need to look at the environment: is the WHM doing most of the healing?

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As above, look at more than just the raw DPS numbers, if the WHM is carrying the healing then the SCH may need to help more for the WHM to start pushing out more DPS. Sometimes you may need to get your tanks to play a little more cautiously to help things overall as well.

Lastly, it's do keep in mind that by pressuring them to do more DPS, you'll likely be upsetting and shifting their flow of play. If your group is hitting enrage and needs the extra DPS then it's something that'll need to be done. If you haven't hit enrage yet then putting pressure on them is just as likely to cause additional mistakes and wipes as they readjust and get comfortable again. You guys need to be sure that it's even going to be needed in the first place and that the initial fallout will be tolerable.

If they themselves want to try to push a bit more DPS, suggest they focus on getting into the habit of maintaining dots. Aero II can be thrown during movement with very little thought, and once you've got that down, it's pretty easy to start finding windows to keep Aero III ticking away as well.

Looks like you've got the right idea on it tho, good luck with O3, it's fantastic encounter imo.

Everytime you guys talk about faster runs, it ALMOST makes playing the game sound like a chore.

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Originally Posted by Lyrai_Celestine

Speaking of the thread, I have a question that might be useful to all of us:

So, I encountered a case where one of my healer (WHM) deals way less damage than a melee LB3 in a Savage raid, at around 1/3rd of an LB3. The other healer (SCH) deals twice the LB3 damage. I heard that the O3S and O4S will only have tougher DPS checks. The problem is how I should approach this problem. Should I really tell this healer to output more DPS at this point? On a base scale, how much DPS does a healer need in Savage raids in order to be more passable in terms of team contribution?

Any help would be appreciated. :)

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My rule of thumb with my group is "mechanics first, DPS second". You won't even get to enrage if everyone is dying left, right, and center to mechanics. However, with understanding of the mechanics you'll also have an understanding of the best ways to optimize for DPS and healing and coordinating mechanics in such a way to minimize DPS loss as best as you can.

In the case of your healers, I would look first at how much they're both healing for and how much of it is overheal and how much healing is split between the two as well. There are two important things here: (1) making sure both healers are comfortable doing what they're doing and (2) ensuring there isn't wasted GCDs on overhealing so both can focus more attention to DPS if you need that extra umph to hit the DPS check. It's important to work towards both healer's comfort level. While it's more optimized to have both DPS hard and heal equally, it might not be the most beneficial way to run your particular pair of healers.

For example, in my static the AST I'm partnered with would rather heal more than DPS. This leads us to have more of a 40-45% split of me healing and 55-60% of them healing which allows me to focus more DPS uptime which in turn also means our DPS difference is fairly high - especially when you compare WHM personal DPS versus AST. What's important for me here is this works for us, we're both comfortable, and we've made it to O4S and going through that too.

What I'm getting at is you don't necessarily have to tell your healers "Man up and git gud" but you may have to coach them to work together and see what they can do together and optimize together. Minimize overheal and maximize healing CDs to meet the healing checks then spend the rest of the time burning GCDs for DPS to help the group meet the DPS check. You can still work within the confines of the WHM healing > SCH healing, you just need to minimize "waste" as best as you can.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I do everything in my power to give you breathing room. I use my Def GCD's liberally, rotating them...

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You do, but others do not. You're making this out as an issue that can be pointed to a single thing. Unfortunately, it's not. Take into consideration the other things besides healers being lazy.

* Tanks who run and don't use proper cool down management

* Tanks who don't stay in their stances at the right times. (Switching from DPS to Tank stance is fine but only if you're able to maintain yourself for the opening)

* DPS who stand in harms way. Low DPS also can contribute to needing to heal more if some of the other conditions apply.

* With taking in consideration one or more of the above, there's also some mobs that in a pack make things harder and need to die and they're ignored making some things harder.

The list goes on, and yes some can be lazy by nature. Also some have played way too much and that encourages laziness. You should deal with this per healer in your party. Also consider helping others out to make the healer have that gap like you do. You shouldn't be facing just healers. Turn around and look at your tanks. Don't worry, I took up WAR for my main for 4.0 so I'll slap on my banana hammock, lather myself in oil and grab my g.axe and will help teach the world too...except DRG's they're a lost cause.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

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the argument we're posing here isn't about the group's overall dps. it's if, when the fight is being balanced, that the devs say "okay, the amount of dps you need can't be reached by dps alone, so do we include healer dps in here as a requirement to meet the minimum, or do we lower the requirement so that it can be reached with only the dps doing damage?" And the statement we've been given is that, no, you do not NEED your healers to dps unless your group is cutting edge, at minimum ilvl. For the vast majority of the game's players, you do not NEED healer DPS to pass because by the time you reach it, you've already passed the minimum ilvl.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

the argument we're posing here isn't about the group's overall dps. it's if, when the fight is being balanced, that the devs say "okay, the amount of dps you need can't be reached by dps alone, so do we include healer dps in here as a requirement to meet the minimum, or do we lower the requirement so that it can be reached with only the dps doing damage?" And the statement we've been given is that, no, you do not NEED your healers to dps unless your group is cutting edge, at minimum ilvl. For the vast majority of the game's players, you do not NEED healer DPS to pass because by the time you reach it, you've already passed the minimum ilvl.

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They don't mean you need healer DPS at the minimum item level requirement of the content. They mean you need healer DPS until you are higher item level than what's available to you when the content is released. For example, when Omega Savage came out, the item level available for players was around 320. But the fights are balanced to be beaten at let's say (because they haven't given us the specifics) i330 (or higher), and even then only when your DDs and tanks are pushing 85-90% of their maximum possible performance. Those are the circumstances in which the fights are balanced by developers to be beaten without healer DPS.

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Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers.

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Source: https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125732-Game-Watch-Translation-Yoshida-Interview-on-Heavensward-%28EU-Media-Event-5-19%29

Currently, the great majority of the players doing that content are below the designed item level. And even at that item level, it's really not fair to ask your tanks and DDs to push for 85-90% optimal performance while the healers are somewhere below 50%. :D

Right, but this discussion wasn't really about Savage to begin with. It's just the idea if the fights are overall designed with the intent of healers to DPS, and they aren't. If your group needs the healer DPS to clear, by all means they should be DPSing, but that's a different animal than DF, where 99% of the "why aren't my healers DPSing!!!" complaints come from.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

It's just the idea if the fights are overall designed with the intent of healers to DPS, and they aren't.

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It doesn't matter if the fights are designed to require healer DPS or not. Healers, as all other party members, should do their best to be effective team members and help their group, no matter if it's absolutely required for the win or not. And healer roles in this game are designed to include strong DPS abilities, and the content is designed in a way that healers will only need to use limited time on healing and have a lot of free time to DPS.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Right, but this discussion wasn't really about Savage to begin with. It's just the idea if the fights are overall designed with the intent of healers to DPS, and they aren't. If your group needs the healer DPS to clear, by all means they should be DPSing, but that's a different animal than DF, where 99% of the "why aren't my healers DPSing!!!" complaints come from.

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I had that thought when I did my EX rou last night(Ala Mhigo), healer was a WHM and didn't need to heal the PLD all that much(more had to heal us DPS as we were taking agro even using the Diversion/Lucid/whatnot every time we could...but that's neither here nor there) but didn't DPS. We were still ripping things apart rather quickly, so it didn't faze any of us(there was no chat aside from the initial hi from me, then a little later the healer). I'm not sure if it's just the groups people have bad luck with, but I almost never see someone complain about the healer DPSing(or lack there of).

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Right, but this discussion wasn't really about Savage to begin with.

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There isn't really an debate to be had outside of savage content tho. The EX primals are typically tuned to the min ilvl now and have reasonably generous enrage timers, whereas story content and dungeons are tuned to the point where half the group can typically carry the run. Healer DPS is definitely a luxury that the majority appreciates, but it's pretty hard to make any case that suggests it's flat out required either by design or even ineptitude from the rest of the group. I certainly don't disagree with you there <3

Otherwise ya, Taika has it covered above.

what the hell is the hard concept of team work people

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

As above, look at more than just the raw DPS numbers, if the WHM is carrying the healing then the SCH may need to help more for the WHM to start pushing out more DPS. Sometimes you may need to get your tanks to play a little more cautiously to help things overall as well.

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Ah yes. I'm the Main Tank PLD, and I'm the leader of my own static. I decided to use a parser for O2S on the 2nd clear. Continuing from where I left off, the WHM did 48% of healing, SCH did 45% of healing. I decided to stay in Sword Oath for the whole duration of the fight (with proper CD usage) and actually get to win with less than 10 seconds to enrage. So it was definitely pretty close.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Lastly, it's do keep in mind that by pressuring them to do more DPS, you'll likely be upsetting and shifting their flow of play. If your group is hitting enrage and needs the extra DPS then it's something that'll need to be done.

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I am aware of this, and I experienced myself how daunting it is to alter how you play a class. This is why I asked to ask for help in the forums. I don't want to upset my healers' flow that already works for them. I wanted to find the best way to approach this matter. :)

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

If they themselves want to try to push a bit more DPS, suggest they focus on getting into the habit of maintaining dots.

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Dear healers who don't DPS. Read this. I hope my healers keep improving... even if it's little, I will appreciate their efforts!

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Looks like you've got the right idea on it tho, good luck with O3, it's fantastic encounter imo.

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Many thanks! My static's about to start practicing O3S after clearing O1S and O2S in one day on the 2nd week, so I think I'll just shelf this healer DPS problem for later. :)

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

My rule of thumb with my group is "mechanics first, DPS second". You won't even get to enrage if everyone is dying left, right, and center to mechanics. However, with understanding of the mechanics you'll also have an understanding of the best ways to optimize for DPS and healing and coordinating mechanics in such a way to minimize DPS loss as best as you can.

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Certainly! For O2S, me (MT) and my OT have both positioned the boss in the most optimal position (within melee range from the center) and this has helped a lot in minimizing DPS loss! It's also become my rule of thumb for when to use parser, being "I won't use parser until we clear for the first time."

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Minimize overheal and maximize healing CDs to meet the healing checks then spend the rest of the time burning GCDs for DPS to help the group meet the DPS check. You can still work within the confines of the WHM healing > SCH healing, you just need to minimize "waste" as best as you can.

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Got it. I will tell the healers just that as a way to improve. Each week I'll be parsing and watching their improvements as they (hopefully) take O1S and O2S as second nature.

In S/NES Era final fantasies where you had one character be a dedicated healer, you didn't just have them stand there for a turn when healing wasn't needed.

Why are we treating this game any different?

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Originally Posted by Avatre

I had that thought when I did my EX rou last night(Ala Mhigo), healer was a WHM and didn't need to heal the PLD all that much(more had to heal us DPS as we were taking agro even using the Diversion/Lucid/whatnot every time we could...but that's neither here nor there) but didn't DPS. We were still ripping things apart rather quickly, so it didn't faze any of us(there was no chat aside from the initial hi from me, then a little later the healer). I'm not sure if it's just the groups people have bad luck with, but I almost never see someone complain about the healer DPSing(or lack there of).

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Personally I don't care much whether it's "required" or not; I just don't understand the mentality behind players standing around doing nothing while healing isn't necessary.

Healer is probably the only role for which some players think it's acceptable not to maximize GCDs. Even if a tank is slacking and just phoning it in with 100% tank stance and enmity combo, they are doing more than an idle healer.

While I find it disappointing when healers don't so much as attempt to DPS in routine situations, I'm usually giving them benefit of the doubt that they are inexperienced. In the event that they truly are just lazy and doing nothing but casting a heal every 5-10 seconds is so taxing, I really don't want them trying to type at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Taika

It doesn't matter if the fights are designed to require healer DPS or not. Healers, as all other party members, should do their best to be effective team members and help their group, no matter if it's absolutely required for the win or not. And healer roles in this game are designed to include strong DPS abilities, and the content is designed in a way that healers will only need to use limited time on healing and have a lot of free time to DPS.

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I realize this, there was just a side conversation arising about a quote Yoshida made discussing whether or not healer DPS was required in the game's design, and the answer is that it wasn't. We seem to all be in agreement on this point.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Dear tanks that don't pop CDs, you suck
Dear DPS that don't AoE, you suck
Dear Healers that don't DPS, you suck.

/thread.

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Yeah, but no.
Healers wasting mana on DPS EVERY time they arent healing are bad.
Im so sick of neckbeards crying about not being able to speed run every thing. We get it. You want to speed through content and get cool gear so noobs ask where you got it; and then complain about being bored because youve done every dungeon/raid/trial 15000 times.

I just give up trying, honestly. Last night I DPS'd the shit out of a dungeon, and still got told I suck ass for not dpsing. The morale of this eternal argument: You can't win. You will always suck. Stop trying to please others.

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Originally Posted by Nhisso

Yeah, but no.
Healers wasting mana on DPS EVERY time they arent healing are bad.

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Considering that there is no benefit to having unspent mana, it doesn't make sense to hoard it to the max.

Generally speaking, casting offensive spells while not healing is exactly what you want to be doing. You have to be seriously hurting for MP for some reason to have to stop casting.