Thank you SE

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

You have it backwards and apparently can't properly read FFlogs. Higher percentile = more skilled players, not less skilled.

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Let me hand you wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentile

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The term percentile and the related term percentile rank are often used in the reporting of scores from norm-referenced tests. For example, if a score is at the 86th percentile, where 86 is the percentile rank, it is equal to the value below which 86% of the observations may be found (carefully contrast with in the 86th percentile, which means the score is at or below the value of which 86% of the observations may be found - every score is in the 100th percentile). The 25th percentile is also known as the first quartile (Q1), the 50th percentile as the median or second quartile (Q2), and the 75th percentile as the third quartile (Q3). In general, percentiles and quartiles are specific types of quantiles.

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You know... when they told you in school you were in the 90% Percentile... that means 90% of people were in the group you were in... If your score was '90% percentile'... 90% of people got to that ranking. That is basically the very bottom swimmers on the barrel... This is why EVERYONE is in the 100% percentile - even the guy who dropped out of school on day one.

If you look at 70% the statistics would be heavily affected by pug groups who are still stuck in pld MT war OT mentality, if you tell pld to pull the boss, take 3 assails in first phase, and no tank swaps to share mitigation burden, and possibly no shadewalker/shirk, of course the war OT would do higher. However looking at top 10 dps is also not a good idea since there are a lot of padded parses. I wouldn't take the 3.6k dps parse with over 7 min clear time seriously. I'd rather check the top 10-20 groups in static speed ranking and see how much their tanks do. Pld is definitely doing higher than war/drk in those optimized runs, but nowhere near 300-400 more dps.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

Let me hand you wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentile

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"For example, if a score is at the 86th percentile, where 86 is the percentile rank, it is equal to the value below which 86% of the observations may be found (carefully contrast with in the 86th percentile, which means the score is at or below the value of which 86% of the observations may be found - every score is in the 100th percentile)."

Do you even read lol?

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Originally Posted by Makeda

You know... when they told you in school you were in the 90% Percentile... that means 90% of people were in the group you were in... If your score was '90% percentile'... 90% of people got to that ranking. That is basically the very bottom swimmers on the barrel... This is why EVERYONE is in the 100% percentile - even the guy who dropped out of school on day one.

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That's actually incorrect. Being in 90th percentile means 90% of remaining observations are below that score. Saying otherwise is like saying 90+90=100.

You might think those gray/green/blue numbers are awesome but they're not.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

So you have stats from only 10 individual players for each boss, and you call that meaningful?

I have stats for the top 70% of ALL fflogs players, for those two bosses. I think my stats have a LOT more tracking to them...

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Yo I'm really happy for you, and I'MA LET YOU FINISH!!! But:

Susano's Top 100 Tanks: 74 Paladins, 17 Warriors and 9 Dark Knights.
Lakshimi's Top 100 Tanks: 58 Paladins, 31 Warriors, 11 Dark Knights.

Something something... OF ALL TIME!

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Originally Posted by Makeda

You know... when they told you in school

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They told me in school not to use Wikipedia as a source.

Edit: you also have percentiles backwards XD

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Originally Posted by DWolfwood

I think your point is pretty clear. Some of us just think being upset over a small DPS nerf on PLD is ludicrous considering we just want the tanks to be balanced.

Being upset as in, "Boooo... oh well" is one thing, but the extent that PLDs are acting like its the end of the world for them is a serious slap in the face to the other tanks. By all means keep believing whatever you want though.

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Again with the hyperbole strawman for PLDs, thanks for proving my point once again.

u dont need yo feel sorry for anyone. Get off ur high horse. Ill be fine i wont be pushed outof my raid group but u know as much as me the community only cares about DPS. So newer plds wanting to get into groups will have a harder time. Doesnt mean they wont get into a group. People putting together new groups will want top 2 dps more often then not. And when DRK and WAR have faster and more big def CDs make them better for MT and will have more dps to OT. Thats what i said. Ive always said PLD should have lowest dps but NOT by a large margin. We might have more utility but it doesnt add to DPS. Personally i dont care about what classes r in raid as long as we dont penalize the LB, i wont turn away a good player for a mediocre player just because there class

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Originally Posted by LadyCeles

Personally i dont care about what classes r in raid as long as we dont penalize the LB, i wont turn away a good player for a mediocre player just because there class

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And you think other people won't think this way? Even if "DPS" means everything, if the margins are close to each other the way they should be, people would have to be incredibly obnoxious to rule out the lowest damaging class. In fact, if you get turned down from a group because of your job, it should be a good indicator that you should probably not be raiding with that group in the first place. Obnoxious pricks. -_-

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Originally Posted by LadyCeles

u dont need yo feel sorry for anyone. Get off ur high horse. Ill be fine i wont be pushed outof my raid group but u know as much as me the community only cares about DPS. So newer plds wanting to get into groups will have a harder time. Doesnt mean they wont get into a group. People putting together new groups will want top 2 dps more often then not. And when DRK and WAR have faster and more big def CDs make them better for MT and will have more dps to OT. Thats what i said. Ive always said PLD should have lowest dps but NOT by a large margin. We might have more utility but it doesnt add to DPS. Personally i dont care about what classes r in raid as long as we dont penalize the LB, i wont turn away a good player for a mediocre player just because there class

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Um...I've never turned away anyone because of class lol

Not even in raids.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

Yo I'm really happy for you, and I'MA LET YOU FINISH!!! But:

Susano's Top 100 Tanks: 74 Paladins, 17 Warriors and 9 Dark Knights.
Lakshimi's Top 100 Tanks: 58 Paladins, 31 Warriors, 11 Dark Knights.

Something something... OF ALL TIME!

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Something something WAR mitigation awesome MT better then PLD.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

So...Yes this is 70th percentile.
If you go to 100% percentile... thereby adding in the 30% of LEAST SKILLED players... Paladin rises to the top, but only by a thin hair line.
The lower the percentile you go into, the more skilled the player base, the more Paladin falls in the ranking.

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Top 5 highest parsing pld dps
1. 3590.1
2. 3580.5
3. 3329.0
4. 3303.0
5. 3292.9
Top 5 wars
1. 3216.3
2. 3215.9
3. 3198.8
4. 3194.4
5. 3153.6
You are wrong.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

Top 5 highest parsing pld dps

1. 3590.1

Top 5 wars

1. 3216.3

You are wrong.

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How the heck is a slight increase in casting time going to cost them 300-500 in dps to make them so much worse?

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

Do you even read lol?

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Not the first time they have ignored what was actually being said.


http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4287561

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

Top 5 highest parsing pld dps
1. 3590.1
2. 3580.5
3. 3329.0
4. 3303.0
5. 3292.9
Top 5 wars
1. 3216.3
2. 3215.9
3. 3198.8
4. 3194.4
5. 3153.6
You are wrong.

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Even if Makeda got it wrong regarding how percentiles work, the point still stands: PLD is only sitting at the 1st place at the 90th and above. Any other percentile will see PLD being 2nd or 3rd place, with WAR being 1st.

But if you only want to only look at the top 5, which represents something like 0.02% of the current total parses, then sure. However you should understand that some people actually want relevant data, and not cherry picked parses.

Imho opinion. The only relevant data for balance should be the ones taken from the top percentiles because that is where things are played properly and towards the peak. It's been seen time and time again that the general playerbase is incapable of bringing out any class' true potential when they, to this day and probrably forever more, shove PLDs in the MT slot and have an unnrcessarily high ShO uptime as well as do the majority of the tanking. Thus the data is unreliable because the majority of PLDs are not given equal enviroments to bring out their potential and/or are bad.

Excuse the grandma, im on phone and cbs fixing it atm

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Originally Posted by Fyce

if you only want to only look at the top 5, which represents something like 0.02% of the current total parses, then sure. However you should understand that some people actually want relevant data, and not cherry picked parses.

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While I have no actual data to back this up I do have a pretty good guess why this is, there was a HUGE skill gap in 3.xx when it came to warrior, with most not being able to come even close to the top players. Now most of those less skilled players hopped to pld and drk due to the bad spot war has been in and how difficult and punishing the rotation is, i believe the warriors remaining have a much higher skill lvl across the board than the pld and drk base especially when it comes to the percenrile range you are pointing out. Also there are not nearly as many warrior parses as the other two so the data when looking at percentiles is skewed in the direction of war. The best metric is to look at what a job is capable of. Because pld is capable of higher dps that cannot be debated it is fact.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

While I have. O actual data to ba k this up I do have a pretty good guess why this is, there was a HUGE skill gap in 3.xx when it came to warrior, with most not being able to come even close to the top players. Now most of those players hopped to pld and drk, the warriors remaining have a much higher skill lol across the board than the pld and drk base. Also there are not nearly as many warrior parses as the other two so the data when looking at percentiles is skewed in the direction of war. The best metric is to look at what a job is capable of.

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Susano and Lakshmi are encounters that people can very easily speedrun and pull padded parses out of. The top 5 parses are not "what these jobs are capable of", it's more about the group as a whole being exceptionally good.
The question is: can you reproduce that in savage? And in super savage? As well as: how much people can reproduce that?

If things aren't balanced for a very small subset of players/groups, then it simply becomes an exception. Perfect balance is impossible to achieve. So trying to reach it while screwing everything for the vast majority of players is probably not the best thing to do in a MMORPG.
Balancing things around the very top can be a good thing in a competitive game, but not really here. There's nothing to gain from that. Especially if you base your balance on a very small and innacurate data.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Excuse the grandma, im on phone and cbs fixing it atm

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LMAO this just made my day! xD

And Dizzy_Derp has the right of it. When we are looking for the job that has the highest damage potential, the accurate place to look at is what the top players are capable of doing. He even did a great job explaining why the percentiles are skewed toward Warriors.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Susano and Lakshmi are encounters that people can very easily speedrun and pull padded parses out of. The top 5 parses are not "what these jobs are capable of", it's more about the group as a whole being exceptionally good.
The question is: can you reproduce that in savage? And in super savage? As well as: how much people can reproduce that?

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The group does not have to be good to get good damage, that's a misconception, I was still able to get a 99th percentile parse in Susano in a full pug with no cheese at a long af time. People wanna act like it has to be set up but it doesn't. You just gotta be good. And yes reproducing that at savage will be possible, it will actually be easier because more tanks will play conservatively due to the higher skill required so getting that high will be a cake walk.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Even if Makeda got it wrong regarding how percentiles work, the point still stands: PLD is only sitting at the 1st place at the 90th and above. Any other percentile will see PLD being 2nd or 3rd place, with WAR being 1st.

But if you only want to only look at the top 5, which represents something like 0.02% of the current total parses, then sure. However you should understand that some people actually want relevant data, and not cherry picked parses.

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At lower percentiles you still see a lot of groups pushing pld into MT role and war into OT role, that's why for anything below optimized runs the edge goes to war, not because of the job inherently doing more dps, but because they're pushed into the lazy role. If you put two equally skilled players into a group as a pld and a war, and tell the pld to pull the boss without shadewalker, take all cleaves/busters without doing tank swaps unless necessary, obviously the pld would do less dps since they can't stay in sword oath all the time. For a fair comparison you need both tanks in dps stance nearly all the time, which is only possible in an optimized run.

Btw I also disagree with picking top parses from the dps leaderboard like dizzy posted above, since some of those parses are obviously padded (some had really slow kill time at 8 min+, some even had 80%+ balance uptime only on the tank). I'd rather look at static speed ranking and choose the pld/war/drk in the fastest groups for comparison.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

The group does not have to be good to get good damage, that's a misconception, I was still able to get a 99th percentile parse in Susano in a full pug with no cheese at a long af time. People wanna act like it has to be set up but it doesn't. You just gotta be good. And yes reproducing that at savage will be possible, it will actually be easier because more tanks will play conservatively due to the higher skill required so getting that high will be a cake walk.

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Okay, then, let's look at the 99th percentile if that's what you want. Average DPS are: PLD-2884, WAR-2808, DRK-2783 (at the time of writting. The numbers already changed a little bit). As you can see, there's a HUGE difference between the 99th percentile and the 100th. This clearly shows how bad it is to assume that the top 5 is representative of anything.
In short, the difference between tanks is no way near what some people (you included) say it is, simply because using top parses only is meaningless for 99.98% of players.

Oh dear I see that auto correct now.

Anyways @dizzy I only want to say that warrior in 3.0 was mindlessly easy. Like SAM levels of low effort high results easy so I can't at all agree that there was a reasonable skill gap present. The majority of "top" WAR parsing is honeslty just how many Fell Crits you got and if you had balance. Otherwise the rotation was a joke and I'd even say the PLD rotation was slightly more complex, both equally braindead and can be top parsed with one hand however.

I wouldn't say current WAR rotation is as hard as people make it out to be right now but as you say that there might be a higher quality of players in WAR, I honestly would say the majority og quality players who played WAR have either swapped to PLD or left the role altogether.

Naturally these are all guesses so take it as you will.

Optimizing the current war rotation is a lot harder due to infuriate's new trait. Maximizing infuriate usage outside berserk may require delaying subsequent berserks by a few gcds and thus misaligning it with other buffs like trick attack, embolden etc, or even worse you might risk losing berserk usage/uptime depending on mechanics/phase pushes, so it's very fight/phase/group dependent. However, holding infuriate and using it exclusively for berserk doesn't seem to cause too much dps loss anyway.

While I agree that it is a little trickier to get the timing, especially when you factor in mechanics, I always try to maintain above 50 gauge so I have at least 5% crit at all times and if I see that IR and Berserk is up but Infuriate is <15 secs till off cd I use it because the two FC's at the start and the gcds will have it up for when I need to use it.

Just a good rule of thumb really if you have Berserk up, 100 gauge and Infuriate is <15 secs you can go Berserk. Timing and FC priority will determine how much you can force Infuriate out of cd but you can technically go up to < 25 secs on Infuriate reuse when you first pop IR and berserk.

When it comes to party alignment its really a loss for us since we only get our burst going after 30 seconds into the fight since we need to build gauge to 100 for full burst. Unless you are willing to give up two fell cleaves in the IR rotation for 50 gauge at the start.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

When it comes to party alignment its really a loss for us since we only get our burst going after 30 seconds into the fight since we need to build gauge to 100 for full burst. Unless you are willing to give up two fell cleaves in the IR rotation for 50 gauge at the start.

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It's a huge dps loss to actually build to 100 on the opener. Its never gonna be worth it unless it's like lakshimi where you can build your gauge before the boss drops and everyone else starts those openers. Its just way too much to lose out on all of the raid wide buffs you can't recoup it. Same as in 3.x how it was higher damage to do a double cleave in the opener rather than building for the triple.

Use Infuriate first thing into the fight, and pop Berserk/Inner Release right after Storm's Eye. Getting 4 Fell Cleaves in is worth more than holding on to Berserk/Inner Release/Infuriate to land 6 of them.

If you do this in Lakshmimi you can get in 2 Inner Release rotations before she transitions.

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Originally Posted by LadyCeles

PLD utility lowers there DPS further

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PLD loses nothing for their utility. Neither Intervention/DV/Cov affect their DPS in any way. You may have an argument for PoA, but that depends how long it needs to be channeled.

"Oh no WAR can stance dance again all the other Tanks are now garbage ....except not really..." PLD's are stronger then ever... real paladins wanted the nerf to holy spirit spam... They dont want to be meta they just wanted to be useful which they are now.

Personally, I want every tank to be overpowered because I main and enjoy all three of them.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

Use Infuriate first thing into the fight, and pop Berserk/Inner Release right after Storm's Eye. Getting 4 Fell Cleaves in is worth more than holding on to Berserk/Inner Release/Infuriate to land 6 of them.

If you do this in Lakshmimi you can get in 2 Inner Release rotations before she transitions.

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You shouldn't be popping seek after eye you should be after the following maim.

So, all y'alls looking at FFLogs are wrong. You need to look at the percentiles, not the top parsers (because if, say, only 1 person played WAR and 10 million played PLD of course the top parses will all be PLD that got lucky), but the -Balance feature is only for the top parses so right now there's no really meaningful way to look at the numbers.

Look at how Balance messes up DRK's rankings (they move way up if you remove Balance, which makes sense since they aren't likely to get it other than RR spread and they don't have a "burst" phase like WAR) and it's pretty clear looking at the numbers that include Balance is totally meaningless.

All the WAR salt lol just play all 3 tanks ya bums.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

So, all y'alls looking at FFLogs are wrong. You need to look at the percentiles, not the top parsers (because if, say, only 1 person played WAR and 10 million played PLD of course the top parses will all be PLD that got lucky), but the -Balance feature is only for the top parses so right now there's no really meaningful way to look at the numbers.

Look at how Balance messes up DRK's rankings (they move way up if you remove Balance, which makes sense since they aren't likely to get it other than RR spread and they don't have a "burst" phase like WAR) and it's pretty clear looking at the numbers that include Balance is totally meaningless.

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yea, that is why I don't understand how ppl judge a job's dps with top value, the average number is more important because it's most likely one's dps. I think even top players would say: I try to maximize my dps every time and not I do maximum dps everytime.

Seems gonna be fun tanking again :D

Yeah, I will actually feel like main tanking with my Warrior now and roulette will be more fun. That's all I ever wanted.

Meanwhile Paladins are gonna cry about their slight DPS loss, completely ignoring the fact that their playstyle allows them to help their party out in a lot of situations and is something a lot of Warriors are jealous of. Like how many times have you tried to clear people in Sephirot and just wished you could have done something about that IDIOT who didn't know where to stand for Earthshaker?