Silly tank melds

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Originally Posted by MistressAthena

Yet I'm apparently an extremely good player, and a tank people want to have in their group... Go figure...

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Oh Sweetie, they just wanted your tank queue.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Oh Sweetie, they just wanted your tank queue.

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Plenty of other tanks to choose over me lol

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Oh Sweetie, they just wanted your tank queue.

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I never leave tank stance either and just spam flash / my enmity combo, use cooldowns and clemency myself and no one ever complains. I wish high end raiders would keep their min maxing mentality in savage and extreme where it belongs.

Edit, yes I also use Holy Spirit, my DoTs and other damage abilities. I just don't leave tank stance. Why put extra strain on the healer who should already be trying to dps as well?

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

I wish high end raiders would keep their min maxing mentality in savage and extreme where it belongs.

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The problem I see with how FFXIV tanking is designed or balanced, is that following basic advice given by the game, obvious and intuitive choices, can actually lead to a player being labeled an stupid ignorant lazy ass unwilling to git gud who is a liability to everyone else.

When players are being regarded and treated like garbage due to no fault of their own, but rather due to mis-implementation or mis-balance of the game, then there is a real problem that needs to be solved.

Remember, we're not playing a game of solve-the-trick-question. We're playing an RPG.

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Keep telling tanks to play DPS if they want to "DPS", I am sure there are no negative repercussions from telling tanks that. /s

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More tanks do need to be told that, though. I say that as a tank myself. As far as I'm concerned, the tanks that stubbornly stick to their i270 STR right side when it is really not warranted are a plague to the role (that, with any mercy whatsoever, we will soon no longer have to put up with)

It's different with healers because their primary stat helps them both heal and DPS. They don't have to make any choices gear-wise.

As things stand right now with tanks, the way their stats work force them to choose between survivability and DPS with their accessories.

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

I never leave tank stance either and just spam flash / my enmity combo, use cooldowns and clemency myself and no one ever complains. I wish high end raiders would keep their min maxing mentality in savage and extreme where it belongs.

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There's just so many "I nevers" you can do before "apparently an amazing player" stops really being a realistic descriptor. People are free to play how they choose, but if they never plan to do better then they'll never be amazing- and that's perfectly 100% fine. But if they won't put any 2k gil T4 materia into their gear because they're against it, or never leave tank stance in even the safest of conditions then there's too much room ahead of them for them to be considered "amazing".

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

But the problem is it wouldn't benefit off tanks. Personally I think having/needing a second tank in 8-man raids and trials is stupid in the first place, but I see it as a result of SE's lackluster design (tank swaps & passive mitigation).

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Absolutely true, however that is gameplay.

Having multiple gearsets is a positive in my eyes. A big part of my post is about horizontal progression rather than linear. It would be amazing if we actually had gearing options.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

More tanks do need to be told that, though. I say that as a tank myself. As far as I'm concerned, the tanks that stubbornly stick to their i270 STR right side when it is really not warranted are a plague to the role (that, with any mercy whatsoever, we will soon no longer have to put up with)

It's different with healers because their primary stat helps them both heal and DPS. They don't have to make any choices gear-wise.

As things stand right now with tanks, the way their stats work force them to choose between survivability and DPS with their accessories.

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Then why don't we get vit scaling back? Then Tada, everyone's happy like they were before.

I mean, a tank's job is to tank, so they don't need damage. That's the excuse. So isn't a healer's job to heal? Why not make us have to wear int accessories for damage? (Oh wait that'd kill the role too.)

All the secondary stats matter so little in the grand scheme of things. That 1-2% don't matter if a player spaces out and misses a chain. Or when a BLM loses his Enochian. Or when someone falls to the floor.
Point is no one plays perfectly all the time. Why try to pick bones out of an egg?

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Then why don't we get vit scaling back? Then Tada, everyone's happy like they were before.

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The likely reason why it got reverted was because they wanted to make weakness not reduce everyone's HP anymore. Fair enough, considering weakness tended to cause people to just die over and over due to not being able to survive anything.

In order to do this, they needed to make it so that it didn't reduce vitality. But by doing this, they also would have made it so that weakness does not impair tanks' damage as much as everyone else, making things imbalanced.

So to get around this, they had to revert us back to STR mattering, and to keep people from going back to STR accessories they started job-locking accessories. Problem is, they halfassed it and didn't job-lock the pre-SB accessories, presumably because they thought "surely these imbeciles won't try to use level 60 accessories all the time for high end level 70 content, right??" Wrong.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

This is the only trinity based MMO I have seen where tanks are expected to out DPS the DPS, and healers are expected to do any DPS at all...

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Originally Posted by Velthice

The thing is though, that\\'s how the game is designed. In other mmos tanks typically can\\'t come anywhere close to touching even terrible dps and healers even less so.

But in this game the dynamic is different.

Edit: I removed the last paragraph that was here, it was rude. My point is though that ffxiv is not other mmos. The tank and healer role function differently here than what others are traditionally used to.

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And yet it was in fact YOU that said:

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Originally Posted by Velthice

This has to be the only game I've ever played where people not only knowingly make bad decisions, ... choosing only to heal ...

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You will note that my reply was in response to your claim there.

Oh and, it will NOT take an incredible rework to make this MMO have a pure trinity. They could do it by simply nerfing tank and healer DPS.

Numbers like this are not a matter of design needs, but design preferences. They are very easily changed.

WoW has in fact had a period where tank's had higher DPS than DPS, and the top healer was a match to any mid-range DPS. For about half of the 'Cata' expansion, they had a stat they called Vengeance that got higher and higher the more aggro you had - and it then boosted your DPS. On any big pull, the tank with aggro alone could do the DPS of the entire rest of the part COMBINED... It kind of became a bit of an issue... because tank swaps got tricky when the other tank lacked all of that absurd threat lead, as soon as a taunt wore off, the first tank would get it back for some of the classes... and the top healer, the 'Discipline Priest' - primarily healed by casting an attack spell, which caused EVERYONE in the group to healed for the amount of DPS that the priest did... and it scaled absurdly well back then...

A few patches later and things were "WoW normal" with tanks at about 80% of DPS (where they are today), and healers either at 0 DPS, or for the Discipline Priest... maybe 50-60%... (the Disc priest has currently been nerfed into near unplayability, at least up until I left in patch 7.2...)

- So WoW went through a more radically swing up and down than this game has ever seen or is seeing now, and people managed to adjust to it. I am not saying the swing WoW did was a good thing, but that the game and it's community survived it.

These issues can be adjusted pretty easily...

A fight takes '100%' to defeat... all the devs need to do is divy up that 100 into different ratios between the roles.

Right now they seem to presume that the balance should be, in a Full Party: 10% for each tank, 10% for each healer, and then 15% for each DPS.
The community on the other hand seems to think it should be 15% for each tank, 15% for each healer, and 10% for each DPS... The amount of slack this community allows DPS to get away with is astounding given how tight the demands are that it puts on the tanks and healers... I could understand it if we were 'extreme mode' about everyone's roles, or if the community was 'lackadaisical' about everyone's roles... but the fact that there is no pressure put on DPS in this community to actually DPS is just... peculiar...

But they could easily make this 5% for each healer, 10% for each tank, and 17.5% for each DPS - and the only thing they would need to do for that is adjust how much damage your abilities do in your 'role stance' and then "weaken" key aspects of the 'out of role' stance.

For example, WoW used to cause tanks in DPS stance to take 10% more damage from all attacks and lose their crit immunity... This actually persisted for about 5-8 years of the game's lifespan and tank players 'learned' how to handle solo content despite it... (there were actually 3 stances for people on a tank 'spec'...)

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Originally Posted by Makeda

The amount of slack this community allows DPS to get away with is astounding.

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It is! I've even started making a game of how low I can let my dps get without anyone telling me anything~ So far I've gotten to spamming Cooldown with Bishop turret and not a comment given! Of course, this comes with the caveat that the healer is DPSing. If they aren't then I play properly.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

Right now they seem to presume that the balance should be, in a Full Party: 10% for each tank, 10% for each healer, and then 15% for each DPS.
The community on the other hand seems to think it should be 15% for each tank, 15% for each healer, and 10% for each DPS... The amount of slack this community allows DPS to get away with is astounding given how tight the demands are that it puts on the tanks and healers... I could understand it if we were 'extreme mode' about everyone's roles, or if the community was 'lackadaisical' about everyone's roles... but the fact that there is no pressure put on DPS in this community to actually DPS is just... peculiar...

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You're making some pretty bad assumptions there. You don't see much talk about dps contribution from the community here because the main metric that there contribution is based on can't be discussed in game or on this forum. Go to any other place this game is discussed and you'll see just as much if not more talk about bad dps. As for the %s in that post, I don't know where you came up with them. But they're so laughably off as to make it seem like you're talking about a different game entirely

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

Stuff like this is why the game needs to show percentages on secondary stats.

I mean WoW has done it for years, I don't know why the devs feel the need to be so cryptic about how their stats are weighted.

We shouldn't have to have people auto-attacking a dummy for hours (with a parser which you can't do on PS4) or trawling through forums to find out exactly how much benefit they are getting.

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I so agree with this. In most games you have an idea what each start does on a percentage basis so you don't need to go outside the game to figure out the best starts.

Silly tank melds are ones that aren't tenacity.

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Originally Posted by MistressAthena

TLDR: Coming from a paladin MT who's apparently doing literally everything wrong.... You're literally arguing over straws here. None of it matters.. Except (Maybe) in savage which not many do anyway.

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as many great players has commented here, none of this really matters if you can't play your class to its max potential and for that you need to know how to play first, lot's of people complaining for this extra 5% or that extra 2% but can't even squish every last drop their class can actually offer. keep playing the way you know how and odnt let others tell you otherwise because is more valuable someone who knows how to properly play their class than some over melded wanna be failing to AOE mechanics.

to my personal opinion, tenacity was a skill directly made for tanks, whatever the team had in mind for this stat is what they intent tanks to have, you can either do some damage and have some extra defense or you can go all damage which is still a minor difference ( in other words CHOICE PPL) something we've been asking so enjoy YOUR CHOISE and let others enjoy it as well.

as for the meld I will use, RIGHT side STR and LEFT Side mix of tenacity enough to get 1.5k and crits and thats it. the rest is insignificant amount of dmg that can contribute.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

It is! I've even started making a game of how low I can let my dps get without anyone telling me anything~ So far I've gotten to spamming Cooldown with Bishop turret and not a comment given! Of course, this comes with the caveat that the healer is DPSing. If they aren't then I play properly.

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Yeeah, but you're doing it on a MCH. No one really expects you to outdps a drunk goldfish, much less have an actual impact on the run.

Would like to get a damage formula for calulations to see where tenacity fits into it. People saying its only an extra 2% for damage output and reduction however the impact could be far more noticeable depending on where that 2% modifier is inserted into the equation.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Would like to get a damage formula for calulations to see where tenacity fits into it. People saying its only an extra 2% for damage output and reduction however the impact could be far more noticeable depending on where that 2% modifier is inserted into the equation.

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As far as I know the theorycrafters are currently working on a document.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...alues/dk1oq9v/

I went full Tenacity on day one of early access for levelling and learning(survival and enmity are pretty important at first). I assumed it would be useful. I also didnt expect my dps to plummet or the weights to change again..

I'm just waiting for more information before I make changes. I barely play anyways..

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Originally Posted by AngelyLowell

Hi guys.

Based on the calculation that I search. 1000 Tenacity give approximately 5% of defense.

Since the majority of tanks meld STR in they accessories, you have 13 slots to put Tenacity Materia.

13 x 40 = 520.

IF your gear don't give the cap of tenacity already, the total can be even lower.

with 520 more tenacity, you will gain 2.5% more defense.

If your healer think that will make a diference, than YES you have to meld it, if not, I don't see why not put a materia to increase DPS.

Remember, a fast clear means less healing and less damage taken.

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If my healer thinks that makes a difference they're getting kicked lol.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

It is! I've even started making a game of how low I can let my dps get without anyone telling me anything~ So far I've gotten to spamming Cooldown with Bishop turret and not a comment given! Of course, this comes with the caveat that the healer is DPSing. If they aren't then I play properly.

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Thunda. You're so confusing. Do you look at your parser and then ask yourself "There's too much group damage going out, I better pull it back."?
You admit to putting as much effort as you can to do as poorly as you can (AKA Griefing) and wear it with a badge of honor that you're confirming what a "proper" group DPS threshhold should be. News flash- Healers/Tanks can DPS without a DPS doing poorly. Believe it or not they can actually ADD to great group damage!

Miraculous I know.

Alas, I doubt your DPSing is really making up for the healer not dpsing.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

Since when was FFXIV a game where you have to keep up on the latest theorycrafting and analysis or else you are wilfully negligent?

This is really sad.

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Since second coil.

After seeing a tank with skill speed melds I thought I'd try it out anduring I even like it :) People are letting this get to their heads... I mean when you're playing with friends who cares what the meta is so long as you're having fun

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Originally Posted by Dreggit

After seeing a tank with skill speed melds I thought I'd try it out anduring I even like it :) People are letting this get to their heads... I mean when you're playing with friends who cares what the meta is so long as you're having fun

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:) Meta be damned. I'm leading with Tenacity, then Det and Skill speed. Each of them impacts more than one aspect of tanking, seems like better value per slot to me. If I have room, and spare slots, I'll drop in what STR I can.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Thunda. You're so confusing.

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I'd say it more highlights just how prevalent the healer/tank must dps meta is that the dps can pretty much do whatever and very few, if any, people will even care to point something out.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I'd say it more highlights just how prevalent the healer/tank must dps meta is that the dps can pretty much do whatever and very few, if any, people will even care to point something out.

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No I'd say that it highlights that you're a griefer. When people don't play how you want you do your very best to do your very worst.