Large pulls VS Small pulls... in leveling dungeons?

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Originally Posted by Niyuka

On my SAM, I want the biggest pulls possible. My AOE DPS is so insane, especially when backed by a TP-supporting class, that it far far outweighs any token DPS the healer could throw in. Stuff is dead before the tank goes through his entire cooldown rotation, so we ll be done under 18 minutes, which is the goal with farm content. I wouldnt even be able to remember the old speedpull instances if they didnt show up in roulettes now and then lolz.

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Wut? I also play as SAM most of the time and unless it's the new AoEs after lvl 60 that do insane dmg, the standard AoE combo before 60 does "meh" compared to say a BLM or a SMN.

I just dont get this post as in 50 and up content tanks have abilities that they take no damage that can be used 2 to 3 times per dungeon,, for example the first dungeon in sb i pulled everything per usual pop hologround on the second trash pull, then after second boss pull all the adds pop hg again iits not that hard to where you have to pull 4 adds at a time. if its a drk liiving dead,

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Originally Posted by Conquistadork

Wut? I also play as SAM most of the time and unless it's the new AoEs after lvl 60 that do insane dmg, the standard AoE combo before 60 does "meh" compared to say a BLM or a SMN.

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I am talking about the full lvl 70 skillset. You get 2 2-step AOE combos, one massive kenki-based super-AOE (its lvl 70) and another OCD kenki-dump AOE, plus the normal 2-sen finisher of course. I am not sure if its more than BLM, but stuff just melts.

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Originally Posted by Niyuka

I am talking about the full lvl 70 skillset. You get 2 2-step AOE combos, one massive kenki-based super-AOE (its lvl 70) and another OCD kenki-dump AOE, plus the normal 2-sen finisher of course. I am not sure if its more than BLM, but stuff just melts.

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This entire thread was about leveling dungeons.

The new mobs in SB hit like a freight train, more than 3 and you pretty much dicing with death most time, I am not pulling like I was end of HW because it is just completely stupid, like described you end up either over taxing an healer than already as the community bitching at him to DPS more that they are too shit scared to actually heal and then the tank it hitting all cooldowns under the sun to try and keep a pulse.

Other day I did the Lokshimi (however you spell it) on my PLD I ended up in the OFF-Tank role since it was my 1st time, I spent more time during the fight acting as a 3rd healer! The mentality in SB that you can just go in and mass pull everything is ridiculous because the system as changed, they have also increased the output of the mobs as well.

Pre-max level dungeoneering should always be executed with care. You don't know the other party member skill levels only their general item level which doesn't say much. I employ a similar tactic to yours in appraising my fellow party members proficiency at various pull sizes. I throttle it back if someone is uncomfortable with the pull size ,or rev it up if people feel they can handle more. The item levels we enter dungeons at for the first time tend to be lower end of desirable so tanks are a bit squishier ,and dps is a bit slower in most cases. I have to say in Heavensward I didn't feel quite so vulnerable in the leveling dungeons , but there were some major tank modifications made so it's to be expected I suppose.

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Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

It's a combination of things. As a healer main, I can tell you that tanks complaining about bad healers isn't entirely unfounded. There is a significant lack of good healers in this game.

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Having tanked exactly all the dungeon/trial/ex/savage content I have thus far seen in FF14, I don't really agree with this. I've had maybe 5-10% of my DF healers be below par, and I have only grouped premade/FC like halfa dozen times? All my experience in group content is via DF randoms.

What I think there is a shortage of, if such a thing exists, is healers who can cover for undergeared bizarro tanks who pull big when the have no business doing so and are counting on their healers and DPS to bail them out of a dumbass decision. In every DF random I do, I always pull the first pack small, and we'll see how easy it goes. That tells me a ton about my group, and I will decide pull methodology from there. But I think it is the tank's responsibility to present a reliable, smooth and predictable drop in Effective HP to the healer, so they can more easily plan and execute their role. If I overpull and things get frantic, I fail at that responsibility...i.e. I fail the healer and the group.

Said another way, the shortage of healers depends on who is tanking. For me and how I tank...there's good healers everywhere, and bad healers are the exception, not the rule.

lulz - three to five minutes. What's your rush? Got a meeting with the prime minister?

Reminds me of those folks who pass everybody in sight, you run into at the red light.

Nice try, whatever it was you were after. lulz - three to five minutes.

I think pull size is largely dependent on the skill level of your players and the ilevel of their gear. An undergeared tank or one who doesn't know what a cooldown is should not be making large pulls. Some healers can't handle the healing of a large pull regardless of tank skill/gear. Some dps can just wreck a group, others can't, and if the dps aren't up to the task of killing quickly there's no benefit to a large pull. Ultimately, there's no right or wrong answer here, it all comes down to who the roulette paired you with.

As a tank, I always pull small by default. However, if someone ask for bigger pulls, I will be happy to accommodate but they will need to speak up. I usaully get no one answering my question when I ask small or big pulls so now its small by default.

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Originally Posted by Evaddaragon

SNIP

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Interesting you noticed this. Bardam's mettle in particular is a terrible dungeon to pull big on. I've healed and DPS'ed that dungeon and I've done big pulls just fine as both but there's two specific pulls that tanks ALWAYS seem to grab big on and it's the ones with the bird who gives the tank windburn and it's a nasty nasty dot. No idea why that dungeon seems to be the one they pull big on. Especially when EVERY expert I get into they pull three mobs and only three mobs.

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Originally Posted by Venjenz

Having tanked exactly all the dungeon/trial/ex/savage content I have thus far seen in FF14, I don't really agree with this. I've had maybe 5-10% of my DF healers be below par, and I have only grouped premade/FC like halfa dozen times? All my experience in group content is via DF randoms.

What I think there is a shortage of, if such a thing exists, is healers who can cover for undergeared bizarro tanks who pull big when the have no business doing so and are counting on their healers and DPS to bail them out of a dumbass decision. In every DF random I do, I always pull the first pack small, and we'll see how easy it goes. That tells me a ton about my group, and I will decide pull methodology from there. But I think it is the tank's responsibility to present a reliable, smooth and predictable drop in Effective HP to the healer, so they can more easily plan and execute their role. If I overpull and things get frantic, I fail at that responsibility...i.e. I fail the healer and the group.

Said another way, the shortage of healers depends on who is tanking. For me and how I tank...there's good healers everywhere, and bad healers are the exception, not the rule.

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I can agree with most of that. I wouldn't say there's a shortage of competent healers. I suppose when I say "good" I mean healers who can be relied on to virtually never let the tank die, no matter how nutty things get, be it the tank being undergeared/eating extra hits/bad cooldown usage, or the DPS being slow or getting themselves wrecked.

I definitely wish more tanks could keep their HP drain a bit more steady. I can keep an eye on how long their defensive buffs have left to some extent, but a tank that can juggle cooldowns properly to keep a constant flow of damage reduction is very nice to heal.