Please do not nerf Astrologian instead buff WHM/SCH

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

^^^^^^^

Failing that though, Balance at the LEAST needs to be looked at/addressed. A flat 10% DPS increase on everyone in the raid is something no other healer comes even close to emulating in value.

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Instead of messing with Balance, wouldn't be better to improve Chain Stratagem and/or whatever utility WHM has? (I don't have the job)

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Instead of messing with Balance, wouldn't be better to improve Chain Stratagem and/or whatever utility WHM has? (I don't have the job)

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(they have none)

(I'm not even being sarcastic)

(they have an AoE stun, a knockback/bind, and a sleep, but Square decided that CC isn't a thing in dungeons or raids)

Benediction-is 180 cd that more often then not don't even save the person cuz of its delay.

Essential dignity-heals ALMOST just as much as a benediction it's on a 15-30 sec cd (idr) and best part of all no delay!

Asylum - is no where near being considered a "strong" ogcd it's more like "oh it's up might as well toss it somewhere"

Tetra* only skill I can consider "strong" even tho it's just a insta cure2 but weaker and on a longer cd then essential dignity

Assize* was a great skill was one of a kind only skill in game that heal and did damage......and then ast got earthly star lol. Fun fact you don't need wait the 10 seconds for earthly star you can insta pop it and it's still pretty damn strong

But hey since your so ungrateful about your essential dignity and think benediction is all that maybe just maybe we can work together to get se to swap skills? I'll even throw in pi and my 68 trait and my lily's just for essential dignity.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

And how exactly is it that a difficult to use character is worthless? That's such a backwards idea it just doesn't make sense.

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Because skill gap is a real concern of SE's. They simply don't want to implement a job that's built from the core to be "hard mode" at it's main role. This isn't like a fighting game where whipping someone with a bottom tier character is a sign of great skill. This is a game where you have to coordinate with others.

So, as an example, you have two healer players of equal skill. One is an Ast and it's a healing intensive fight. Is the WHM/SCH now expected to pick up the potency slack? Should WHM or SCH be balanced with this in mind? Wouldn't that make them overpowered as healers? What about groups running WHM/WHM, SCH/SCH or WHM/SCH? What about if the second healer is another AST? Would you be able to meet heal checks then?

That's why they need to be on equal footing.

I would be pissed off if AST got a nerf. It took an entire expansion to get
it where it's at right now. Have any of you played 3.0 patch AST? We were terrible.
Open for list:

1. Card Duration was too low.
2. Shuffling the same damn card you had in your hands.
3. Ewer sucked back then and was only good for DRK.
4. Benefic was terrible for the MP cost.
5. Lightspeed was crap.
6. Other stuff that I forgot and/or don't wanna remember lol
7. Oh wait, Healing potency was too low and we wasted a lot of mana.
8. Noct stance was rendered useless.

AST was always the weird healer job, as it tried to be two jobs with card tricks.
WHM doesn't have really any new tricks and a lot of the utility is in Roles.
SCH? I have no idea whatsoever why they nerfed it to the ground.
As an AST main since 3.0, I even think the recent Noct buff was unneeded.
Let SCH have SOMETHING.

To continue, they've been juggling with healers since 3.0 and they need to make them
all equal and loved if we ever hope to get another healer in 5.0. I don't wanna see another
undertuned healer or OP healer and have one or some sitting in the backrow. We can't afford
it especially when they aren't enough healers to go around.

Balance is busted.

That's the main thing that needs to be adjusted to fix the healing meta.

AST was underwhelming at 3.0.
It got buffed
and buffed
and buffed..

Then seems like SE forgot to hit the brakes on it and just continued to overtune it.

Tone down balance and you will likely see a lot more groups willing to run without an AST.

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Originally Posted by simiii

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How is it not saving someone? Isn't it an instant cast like essential? Essential used to be 60s now its what 40s. So I can understand why whm would be upset with how long a cooldown of benediction is.

Well, I doubt people are instant popping star it's not that great at the first level and timing the skill by far more helpful. Unless you're going to save someone with it immediately, why pop it. timing and knowing the fight is far more productive use of star when you can time it to hit an aoe dmg and save some mp. If your bitter about the damage I could honestly lose the damage on it I don't use star for the damage. Its more about saving some mp on heals after aoe dmg.

I personally like astro were its sitting at but I didn't have all to much trouble even before it was buffed.Then again I don't try to match it next to other heals. I play it becouse I like its toolkit and style.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Balance is busted.

That's the main thing that needs to be adjusted to fix the healing meta.

AST was underwhelming at 3.0.
It got buffed
and buffed
and buffed..

Then seems like SE forgot to hit the brakes on it and just continued to overtune it.

Tone down balance and you will likely see a lot more groups willing to run without an AST.

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I don't understand where people are getting this groups not willing to run without an ast, I have never even seen on pf astro only party or something. Granted I am in a static and an amazing fc so don't have to search all to often to group but I really don't think I have ever seen a party say no to other heals. How often is it actually happening?

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Originally Posted by Verdan

Funny, because they just took the white mage template and slapped cards on it, then panicked and let it switch between hots or shields. The Ast is a bad design that will continue to be either too powerful or too weak, cause it just heals like the other two and has cards. Without a total rework, it will be a thorn in the healing balance forever.

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I definitely agree with this. They need to make more than 2 ways to heal (pure healing and shielding), not only does it cause the balancing problems, but they can't keep doing it when they introduce more healers (and they have plenty more to choose from FF wise, not including the "original classes" they want to make).

I just have one very basic question for the OP or anyone who agrees with them...

What changes to SCH and WHM will make them equal to AST? Take in to account shielding/regen spells, mp management, party utility and heal potency.

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Originally Posted by Minizomb

How is it not saving someone? Isn't it an instant cast like essential? Essential used to be 60s now its what 40s. So I can understand why whm would be upset with how long a cooldown of benediction is.

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Benediction, as with Hallowed Ground, only takes effect after the ANIMATION is complete. Ask paladins how many times they've hit that button and died, and it's the same with us.

Also, the heal at level 1? That's much better than Assize. It's actually the same as Cure 3.

How I feel as an omnihealer main:

AST is where it needs to be now. Don't mess with it, please.

WHM is doing alright, but the lack of Stoneskin hurts. 4.0 skills are kind of pointlessly redundant (can we have a little utility, please?), and the lilies system needs to be tweaked; just too flaky.

SCH is... painful. Healing potency is pitiful and the mitigation doesn't balance it out at all. MP recovery was overly nerfed to the point I have to take Lucid Dreaming over Eye for an Eye, which in turn makes Deployment Tactics absolutely worthless.

Nope. The Balance card should be removed. Or at least nerfed.

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Originally Posted by Minizomb

I don't understand where people are getting this groups not willing to run without an ast, I have never even seen on pf astro only party or something. Granted I am in a static and an amazing fc so don't have to search all to often to group but I really don't think I have ever seen a party say no to other heals. How often is it actually happening?

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It's less about specifically restricting a heal slot to AST-only in PF, but more about people being a little disgruntled when they don't have one.
I also run mostly with the FC and friends, so rarely PF as well.. However a friend of mine on the EU server has said that PF groups have been filtering out WHM/SCH in one of the healer slots for some content..

You will likely see this in speedruns / farm parties more than anything I presume. While I don't experience it myself (being far from a healer main), it does happen.

Benediction is insta cast the heal itself has a delay to it. Idk how explain it if you ever used benediction you would notice. I don't even use it as a emergency heal anymore I just use it as a "I don't want stop dpsing" heal.

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Originally Posted by Minizomb

I don't understand where people are getting this groups not willing to run without an ast, I have never even seen on pf astro only party or something. Granted I am in a static and an amazing fc so don't have to search all to often to group but I really don't think I have ever seen a party say no to other heals. How often is it actually happening?

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Wait for Omega Savage. You'll probably see a few if they don't fix things by then.
I think they're waiting on feedback WITH Savage to really fine tune anyone.

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Originally Posted by Verdan

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Why do you have to yell animation, lol.

That is rather annoying it's like the stall of celestial opposition and takes a few before it actually pops the status and that one drives me nuts, they really should change benediction. Nothing worse than thinking your saving someone and it wasn't fast enough and you hit yourself instead. Lots of timing associated with benediction then, have to count in your animation like celestial which is annoying, would be worse for benediction celestial really more timing and knowing the fight then popping it just in case. They really need to reduce the timer then on benediction and fix it to instant cast would probably help the most for it.

What heals at level one? We start at 30, so I don't even remember a level one? Do you mean ben at lvl 2? or do you mean you get essential to soon? That only really matters in roulette and I think we get it at 15.

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Originally Posted by Mikhaill

Wait for Omega Savage. You'll probably see a few if they don't fix things by then.
I think they're waiting on feedback WITH Savage to really fine tune anyone.

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But guess it depends on the party composition or the leads. I have seen some salty parties have strict amounts they like but was always foisted upon the dps not heals. I don't think even in random pugs have I seen a heal get booted. Though I feel like Savage isn't something to go off because I run into way more people who are casual that complain then raiders, could also be that I have been end game too long have a group of people to play with. Though met some whiny savage players too, just not as often and it's usually over voice chat, lol. Guess depends on play style I expect some pretty epic Omega savage modes, especially that D2 or even 3 with the sand. So hopefully they get some changes to scholar and whm so they can enjoy it too.

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Originally Posted by Altena

....esume. While I don't experience it myself (being far from a healer main), it does happen.

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Well, while I don't believe in elitism or denying based on class. It is built into the system to choose so guess it's there right but I find it hard to believe people focus on that. Specially whm I can understand sch being screwed out, but I love parties with whms my static partner is a whm. Hmm, guess I'll start checking the PF more often and seeing what is up. Would be hard for a newer player to establish themselves if that is indeed happening a lot.

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Originally Posted by HyperSMB

I've said it once, I will say it again, the fact SCH has no oGCD shield/mitigation ability is garbage. Excog should have been an instant shield so we could save DPS who are about to eat something strong. Fits way more.

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I agree with this suggestion entirely. Excog was a nice idea, but it doesn't fit the SCH toolkit.

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Originally Posted by Minizomb

What heals at level one? We start at 30, so I don't even remember a level one? Do you mean ben at lvl 2? or do you mean you get essential to soon? That only really matters in roulette and I think we get it at 15.

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I thought it was clear enough in context that I was talking about Earthly Star level 1, but I guess not. It's heal is a potency of 540, which is more than Assize's 300. It's basically the same as Cure 3's 550.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

Instead of messing with Balance, wouldn't be better to improve Chain Stratagem and/or whatever utility WHM has? (I don't have the job)

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Say they buff Chain Strategem so that somehow it maths out to be a 10% raid-wide DPS increase. Okay, then what? If you play with classes that don't stack crit you're gonna take WHM/AST maybe because SCH's healing and MP issues are kinda busted and they're just not worth it. But let's say everyone is still stacking crit because it's still a bongos-good stat and the devs have seemingly learned nothing from HW about it as a stat. Well, WHMs are now taking the piss over being left out of raids again, so what do we do? We give them some kind of haste that equals a 10% raid-wide DPS increase? Except haste still consumes resources, so SCH/AST is the go-to still. Give them personal DPS so high it makes up for the lack of AOE Balance? Congrats, they're now busted for 4-man and solo content.

Easiest solution is also the most boring: EVERY healer gets a flat 10% raid-wide DPS increase every two minutes. Even then though, ASTs will still be taken because Bole and Arrow, while nowhere near as good as Balance, are probably still better than most WHM and maybe current-SCH things, to say nothing of the potential of actual well-coordinated Spears on certain DPS.

In my opinion, the best solution is also the most labor-intensive one: rework AST so that it doesn't just copy WHM and SCH, and is instead a unique healer job with unique strengths and weaknesses so that they're not always a good choice healing-wise for an encounter over a WHM:SCH combo, even taking Balance into account. This is an expac's worth of work though, so that's why I'm mostly suggesting just nerfing or removing Balance in the interim.

The easiest fix to AST right now would be to either Nerf it's heals so they have to work harder to clear content, while still offering absolutely amazing utility, or Nerf their utility down to 3.0 levels or beyond so that they're no longer mandatory. Easiest way to fix AST for now is to completely neuter one of those two aspects, like SCH's AoE.

I have to agree with the thread OP as well. I mean SE really needs to stop it with this whole bullcrap where their idea of "balancing" Healers/Tanks is to take the current most favored Job of a particular role and nerf it deep into the ground. Meanwhile also buffing the previously least favored Job of that role sky high. Since all it ever does is reverse the situation. They need to finally realize that balance means having all the jobs equally desirable in some way instead of doing things in extremes.