Mogstation and New Content

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Haven't you heard? The game is dying! It'll shut down in a half a year, tops. /s

Folks were saying the same thing about FFXI, back in 2006, when the game was just three years old. It had plenty of glory years left to it after that, and is in fact still chugging along, albeit as a shadow of what it once was (but still pretty darned impressive for a game showing its age as badly as it does).

You'll never have to look far on the General Forums to find folks spouting doom 'n gloom who really have no idea what they're talking about.

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My favorite was when WoW came out and they said it'd kill Everquest. WoW came out in 2004, 2005 had EQ's highest subscription. Its on its like 24th expansion now.

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Originally Posted by ChocoFeru

Many of the Mogstation articles were from past-events that we got for free.

I'm just concerned about where the money goes; does it go to SE in general or FFXIV? If it goes directly to FFXIV then I'm ok paying for some glamours, because I can and want some of them and I'll feel better if it helps the game somehow.

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moving EU servers to europe
upgrading servers for bigger inventory
moving NA servers to somewhere else
maybe more server stuff in future

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Judging by the amount of cash the mogstation brings in, and the lack of noticeable difference in content quality or quantity pre cash shop and post cash shop, I reckon it goes to SE in general.

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Don't just look at the stage (what you see ingame), but also to the backstage (mostly hardware stuff)

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Originally Posted by Ririta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_aliYN8hNk
Winning is subjective, for some it may be clearing the latest raid, for others it may be controlling the market boards, etc.

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As I do wish that more interactive/glamour questlines were added, this comment doesn't apply to MS stuff as none of it is marketable nor tradeable (unless u want to go into losing your furniture item due to placing in public(fc) access/use housing. So it still isn't anything to be considered pay to win.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

I don't understand what's with the modern video-game players that defend anti-consumer practices especially on a game that started without them like ours. It doesn't helps that the game really did get more content before cash shop... both extra events and actual playable content.

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Preach. Thank you for this post. I feel less alone.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

I don't understand what's with the modern video-game players that defend anti-consumer practices especially on a game that started without them like ours.

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Don't weigh on them too much. This practice has been normalized for their gaming generation, and because they don't know any better, they hand wave and accept it.

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Originally Posted by NolLacnala

Don't weigh on them too much. This practice has been normalized for their gaming generation, and because they don't know any better, they hand wave and accept it.

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I've been gaming since before the NES, and I have no problem with these supposedly "anti-consumer" practices. The fact is, game development budgets have gotten completely out of control, and they need to make that money somewhere. Instead of continually raising game prices, everyone went with a DLC model. At first I hated it, because it felt like I was being forced to pay for the full game, but eventually I got over that (and now I spend more on DLC than I did back then).

The idea that optional content is "anti-consumer" is just nonsense, though. It's basically a progressive tax. Instead of charging everyone more money, they get more money by allowing some people to spend far more than others. As long as they don't add anything that you're forced, gameplay-wise, to buy, I am totally fine with it. I don't care how much you love glamours, or whether that's the reason you play, it's still optional content. If they start charging for something that you essentially need to play (like F2P game stamina type stuff), I'm out. I hate free to play with a passion, not because they're charging me for a bunch of stuff, but because they're continually charging me to actually play the game*. That's not happening here, so I'm fine with it.

(*EDIT: As someone pointed out, this statement is totally ridiculous when applied to the fact that this game has a subscription. So I should clarify that the difference to me is that the subscription is a small, set amount, and doesn't change based on how or how much I play the game. But... yeah that was pretty dumb to say.)

If you're opposed to the cash shop, you have to ask yourself, would you rather they raised subscription prices? Now I think it's pretty clear they wouldn't do that, because it would be suicide in the current gaming sphere. But that's why they have a cash shop. Relying solely on cheap subscriptions you can't raise is leaving money on the table. If you begrudge them trying to make more money... well sorry, but welcome to real life. I've long since given up on railing against businesses for daring to charge me for things, and I highly recommend you do the same. You'll feel better!

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Its funny because some will say the game is bleeding pop. I find that hard to believe when I read such a post while waiting in a server queue. Won't be the first game I've experienced this in.

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People point to the unofficial censuses we've had for those excuses but conveniently forget despite the sharp decline we did see back when Gordias was content, subs have seen gone up. Creator showed the largest climb since Heavenward launched. So it'll be interesting how Omega fairs as they have said the difficulty will remain the same for Savage.

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Originally Posted by Ririta

Almost every game has them now because instead of uniting to show developers that we don't want such thing, we argue between ourselves and pay for them anyway.

I don't understand what's with the modern video-game players that defend anti-consumer practices especially on a game that started without them like ours. It doesn't helps that the game really did get more content before cash shop... both extra events and actual playable content.

In my opinion arguing in favor of cash shops is a disrespect to both the game and the developers, since you're basically saying that you'd rather pay than play the game's content to obtain your items.

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Thank you!

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Originally Posted by Ririta

Almost every game has them now because instead of uniting to show developers that we don't want such thing, we argue between ourselves and pay for them anyway.

I remember one day when they were asked why FFXI never had a cash shop and the answer was something like "the playerbase would never accept it". The European Ragnarok Online (euRO) also stopped on very basic items (that you could easily get better in game) because the playerbase wouldn't accept what other ROs were getting.

I don't understand what's with the modern video-game players that defend anti-consumer practices especially on a game that started without them like ours. It doesn't helps that the game really did get more content before cash shop... both extra events and actual playable content.

https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Category:Events

3 out of 5 extra events were added before the cash shop (Lightning, Shantotto and Dragon Quest).

In my opinion arguing in favor of cash shops is a disrespect to both the game and the developers, since you're basically saying that you'd rather pay than play the game's content to obtain your items.

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Because not everyone feels the same way. I, for one, have no qualms with DLC, provided it's worthwhile content. When developers have attempted to nickel and dime, people have called them out. BioWare has taken a beating for their day one DLC practices and Square Enix themselves caved to the overwhelmingly negative response to "augment my pre-order."

Another aspect is the realization and acceptance innovation isn't free. You seem to presume companies will simply eat financial losses. They won't. Stuff on the cash shop simply wouldn't exist if said shop were rejected by the community. In that same vein, if people refused to purchase DLC, game prices would skyrocket. The cost of development have increased exponentially over the years and companies will always look for new venues they can explore to recoup those costs. In 2010, Final Fantasy X's entire budget was estimated around 35 million. Nowadays, triple A titles break into the hundred million range; marketing only extends it further. We can't have it all. People want better graphics and technical advances. Well, those cost money. We're either going to pay for it through add ons or at the base cost. I prefer the former because it allows me to opt out. That moogle mount is too expensive for me? Good thing I don't have to purchase it.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

If they start charging for something that you essentially need to play (like F2P game stamina type stuff), I'm out. I hate free to play with a passion, not because they're charging me for a bunch of stuff, but because they're continually charging me to actually play the game. That's not happening here, so I'm fine with it.

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*blinks*
So...uh... what exactly is the subscription to you?

I mean, except that you don't "essentially" need it to play, but "literally" need it to play?

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Originally Posted by Zojha

*blinks*
So...uh... what exactly is the subscription to you?

I mean, except that you don't "essentially" need it to play, but "literally" need it to play?

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OK I'll grant I didn't completely think that one through, lol. But the subscription is a known amount, and it's far, far less than a typical F2P game would cost to play as much as I play FFXIV. No matter how much I play, it's already budgeted for.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I hate free to play with a passion, not because they're charging me for a bunch of stuff, but because they're continually charging me to actually play the game. That's not happening here, so I'm fine with it.

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Well, if you want to get technical, SE IS charging you to actually play the game. That's what a subscription is all about! One might even say the FTP is a step up from that, because you only have to pay to play the game if you WANT to play it to a greater degree than is allowed by the free options. The best way to enjoy FTP games is to find one where you're satisfied with the gameplay that's offered for free. At that point, any purchases you choose to make do not feel obligatory - you make them because you want to, not because you feel that you have to. FTP is a fine option, so long as you understand and can tolerate the limits that are imposed by playing free.

I agree with you on other points, though. I first cut my teeth on gaming with stuff programmed in BASIC (yay DONKEY.BAS!), and my first console was the Atari 2600. I've watched how gaming pricing models have evolved over the years. (I was quite impressed with DOOM's model - distribute the first chapter for free, and charge for the full game. Got so much enjoyment out of that first chapter that I happily forked over for the full game, even on my limited teenaged budget!) While the DLC phenomenon wasn't something I was expecting, I've generally made my peace with it.

And as far as DLC goes, FFXIV's case is ridiculously easy to forgive. Unless you count the expansions themselves as DLC (and technically speaking, they are, but this is a practice that has been typified by MMOs for a long time now, so I consider them to be Grandfathered in), there's no Mogstation items that lock away storylines, dungeons, raids, or anything along those lines. There's nothing offered that provides a direct enhancement to you that would make you more desirable in endgame content. The mounts move at the same speed, the gear has no stats worth speaking of. It's all stuff that changes your appearance, in one way or another, without changing your gameplay. I can definitely live with that!

Taking myself for example:
Heavensward: $129.99
Subscription from June 23, 2015- June 20, 2017: 24 months x $8 (legacy) = $192
Total: 321.99

^ This is just to play the game.

Add in retainer service which is $288.00 for 6 retainers over 24 months.
Total for me to play the game as I choose: $609.99

I also have bought:
Heavensward: FINAL FANTASY® XIV Original Soundtrack [BLU-RAY MUSIC DISC]: $49.99
FINAL FANTASY® XIV: HEAVENSWARD™ The Art of Ishgard -Stone and Steel- [Art Book]: $39.99
FINAL FANTASY® XIV: HEAVENSWARD™ WAYWARD HATCHLING PLUSHIE: $29.99
FINAL FANTASY® XIV: HEAVENSWARD™ CAIT SITH DOLL PLUSHIE: $36.99
FINAL FANTASY® XIV: Duality [Blu-ray Music Disc]: $39.99
Encyclopaedia Eorzea - The World of FINAL FANTASY XIV - [Book]: $49.99
FINAL FANTASY® XIV MEISTER QUALITY FIGURE ODIN: $139.99
FINAL FANTASY® XIV BABY BEHEMOTH PLUSHIE: $34.99
FINAL FANTASY® XIV HEAVENSWARD™ –The Scars of War- [Book]: $39.99
Pre-Order: THE FAR EDGE OF FATE: FINAL FANTASY® XIV ORIGINAL SOUNDTRACK [BLU-RAY MUSIC DISC]: $49.99
2016 Amazon DLC promotion: $19.99
2016-17 Fanfest Live streams: NA: $29.99, JP: $29.99, EU: $29.99 Total: $89.97
Total: $621.86

^ This is to make sure I do not lose out on potentially limited items.

Now my mogstation purchase in Heavensward alone:
10/18/2015: Minions Tataru, Alisaie, Papalymo, Yda, Y'shtola, Urianger $5 each = $30.00
11/10/2015: Papalymo's Attire: $8.00, Urianger's Attire: $8.00
2/6/2016: Mount: White Devil: $12.00, Mount: Red Baron: $12.00, Mount: Sleipnir: $13.99
3/22/2016: Yda's Attire: $8.00
9/4/2016: Mount: Fat Moogle: $29.99
10/23/2016: Far Eastern Garb for Women: $18.00
11/12/2016: Miniature Dreadwyrm: $15.00
2/27/2017: Emote: Backflip: $7.00, Emote: Play Dead: $7.00
Cash Shop Digital Items Total: 168.98
^I still do not own everything only available on the cash shop.

So outside of the $609.99 I pay for my subscription and retainers during Heavensward, Yoshida and Team expects collectors to dish out another $790.84+ (since I still haven't bought everything on Mog Station) for minions, gear, hairstyles, mounts, housing items, emotes, orchestrion rolls that have never been obtainable by playing the game.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

As long as they don't add anything that you're forced, gameplay-wise, to buy, I am totally fine with it. I don't care how much you love glamours, or whether that's the reason you play, it's still optional content.

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It's a game. And if it's a freaking feature in a game, then it is content! Guess what, raiding is optional content, too. Nothing in this game is forcing me to raid. How about we put that on the Mogstation?

I know how well that would go over, though. That's a double standard.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

It's a game. And if it's a freaking feature in a game, then it is content! Guess what, raiding is optional content, too. Nothing in this game is forcing me to raid. How about we put that on the Mogstation?

I know how well that would go over, though. That's a double standard.

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Semantics battle at this point really. Opposing points battling over which side gets to use the word "content" in their argument.

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Originally Posted by Oriens

Yoshida and Team expects collectors to dish out another $790.84+ (since I still haven't bought everything on Mog Station) for minions, gear, hairstyles, mounts, housing items, emotes, orchestrion rolls that have never been obtainable by playing the game.

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They don't expect anything. You choose to collect everything, which comes at additional costs. Bear in mind, it's incredibly unlikely Yoshida has control over cash shop decisions. That would be mandated by Square Enix, whose only concern is profit. Your expenditure decisions proves their current business model has been very effective. I mean, no offense, but think about this from a purely business perspective.

You have spent: $1300.83
Average sub only player: $311.76 (same 24 month span)

And you wonder why there's a cash shop, among other merchandise alternatives? :p

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Originally Posted by Naunet

It's a game. And if it's a freaking feature in a game, then it is content! Guess what, raiding is optional content, too. Nothing in this game is forcing me to raid. How about we put that on the Mogstation?

I know how well that would go over, though. That's a double standard.

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Gameplay and cosmetics are note even remotely comparable. You're building a massive strawman here.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Gameplay and cosmetics are note even remotely comparable. You're building a massive strawman here.

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Not a strawman at all. I haven't raided in this game in years. Raiding is 100% optional. Content is content, however, and one type of content should not be treated differently than the next. Cosmetics and aesthetic are literally THE reason I play this game. I get my raiding jollies in WildStar, which incidentally has a far better costume system than this one. And I can get all the store costumes without ever spending a dime of real life cash if I so choose...

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Not a strawman at all. I haven't raided in this game in years. Raiding is 100% optional. Content is content, however, and one type of content should not be treated differently than the next. Cosmetics and aesthetic are literally THE reason I play this game. I get my raiding jollies in WildStar, which incidentally has a far better costume system than this one. And I can get all the store costumes without ever spending a dime of real life cash if I so choose...

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It is because you are comparing two radically different features and attempting to draw parallels. You may only care for glamour, however games exist for their gameplay. Without it, you have no game to play whereas the game remains functionally unchanged whether you play it wearing armour or walking around naked. Aesthetics in no way impact this, thus they are not comparable. As for Wildstar... considering it's dire financial state, it's not exactly a great example.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You choose to collect everything

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I'm very aware of my choices and do not regret them. The point of this thread is that it's becoming more rampant. I've stated before, elsewhere, the preorder is cancelled and the sub is cancelled. Until I see content worth paying for they are not getting another cent from me for this game.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Content is content, however, and one type of content should not be treated differently than the next.

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It should be. Why? Because -I- want it to be. I want to be able to purchase cosmetics for my character. You on the other hand have no right to take away what I have or what I want. Take the hateful envy elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

It is because you are comparing two radically different features and attempting to draw parallels. You may only care for glamour, however games exist for their gameplay. Without it, you have no game to play whereas the game remains functionally unchanged whether you play it wearing armour or walking around naked. Aesthetics in no way impact this, thus they are not comparable. As for Wildstar... considering it's dire financial state, it's not exactly a great example.

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Without appealing armor appearances, I see very little point in engaging in any combat gameplay. Or are you comfortable running around as a grey box?

Aesthetics impact gameplay. This is simply fact.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Without appealing armor appearances, I see very little point in engaging in any combat gameplay. Or are you comfortable running around as a grey box?

Aesthetics impact gameplay. This is simply fact.

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This is an MMO, not a dress-up simulator. The focus and primary reason to play this game is NOT to decorate your character, but to go on adventures. Dress-up options are offered as a secondary gameplay feature. This is why folks would be almost universally pissed off if "going on adventures" required paying extra money to the cash shop, but there is much more debate when it comes to cosmetics. You are correct that no one wants to run around as a "grey box", but the game presents an ENORMOUS number of options to enable you to avoid this. There are hundreds of potential glamours available! If this array of options is not enough, SE offers additional options, for a fee.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

Without appealing armor appearances, I see very little point in engaging in any combat gameplay. Or are you comfortable running around as a grey box?

Aesthetics impact gameplay. This is simply fact.

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Aesthetics are about your gameplay, they don't affect anyone else. That's why it's acceptable to have them be an optional feature. Nothing anyone else can do is going to compel you to buy glamour items, the same is not true of gameplay advantages. They wouldn't truly be "optional."

The cash shop always worried me since if it starts going down the wrong path theres no correcting it once it has the game's development in a chokehold. If FF14 turns into another Mabinogi which endgame literally is glamour since no content is worth doing and everyone just AFKs in the main city showing off their cash shop clothes and a cash shop with thousands of clothes,armor and weapons and very VERY slow content updates then Id be quite upset.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Its funny because some will say the game is bleeding pop. I find that hard to believe when I read such a post while waiting in a server queue. Won't be the first game I've experienced this in.

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You do know that the que is a lot of times an error on SE server side. Balmung almost always has a que but its fake. 50 or 5 people click it off and reenter instantly. The only time that has never worked was when it climbs to around 1k.

We are also in the up swing of subs before expansion. 3.3 through 3.4 Balmung actually had character creation open during the days. While that does not directly tie to subs. It does show that players had grown disinterested during that phase of the game.

Sadly, but also true. If X player buys the equivalent of two lost subs SE has a net gain. Since that player can't consume three players worth of bandwidth, which SE pays for. Right now SE has not seemed to have cross the line of subs lost is more then cash gained from mogstation.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

It is because you are comparing two radically different features and attempting to draw parallels. You may only care for glamour, however games exist for their gameplay. Without it, you have no game to play whereas the game remains functionally unchanged whether you play it wearing armour or walking around naked. Aesthetics in no way impact this, thus they are not comparable. As for Wildstar... considering it's dire financial state, it's not exactly a great example.

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I think MMOs have more substance then just the gameplay. At least for me, sometimes I log in just to talk to FC/LS. I would not consider it a strong connection as I most likely would not talk to anyone outside the game/game forums, so for outside the game content it does provide the social aspect is counted as part of the reason I keep my sub going even during the down/slow period leading up to stormblood expansion.

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Originally Posted by Moonlite

You do know that the que is a lot of times an error on SE server side. Balmung almost always has a que but its fake. 50 or 5 people click it off and reenter instantly.

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It's actually not "fake". When you attempt to enter, your position in the queue is snapshotted. The next time you try to enter, whether it's by canceling and reentering, or by waiting for the timer to attempt to enter you again, it checks to see whether the 50 people ahead of you are in. In pretty much every case, they ARE - it's just that canceling and trying again is faster than waiting for the program to do it (I think the program tries only once every 30 seconds, or something like that). You have not cheated your way in, and the queue is not fake. Those 50 folks ahead of you really were ahead of you, but got into the game in literally less than a second. 50 folks logged out to make room in that small space of time.

The reason 1k queues seem more "real" is because they happen only when a server has just come up. There's no one logging off to make room; everyone's trying to get in at once, and only so many can do so at a time.