seeing all these total newbie tank is hilarious

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

Speaking to the topic at hand, and with the above in mind why are the dps not equally at fault?

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Somehow things got twisted around in MMOs. Back in the day in EQ1, if DPS drew aggro, they got clowned on, abused, kicked, etc. Nobody ever blamed a tank for losing aggro to overzealous DPS because the mechanics were such that aggro building was a raid/group wide concern, and it was everybody's job to make sure it stayed on the tank. Somewhere in like the 3rd/4th xpac for WoW, that all changed. Now, any time an add finds their way to a healer or DPS, or a mob in a pack peels off from the tank...the tank takes all the blame like 90% of the time. Not sure why, but that's how it is now.

Something about long queues makes DPS cranky? Don't really know.

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Originally Posted by Venjenz

Not sure why, but that's how it is now.

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Because of game design. If hate is easy to hold, people assume you will, and in FFXIV tanks have abundant hate generation. Don't know about other games.

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Originally Posted by Venjenz

Snip.

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More like FF14 is super easy mode and a tank that wants to keep hate, will have hate vs DPS, It's not the most efficient, but if you're going for that should probably gather a team to consistently run with you.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Because of game design. If hate is easy to hold, people assume you will, and in FFXIV tanks have abundant hate generation. Don't know about other games.

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This is only true if you're equally geared. As I mentioned in my other post even just missing 2 points of weapon damage can make a significant difference. This is further magnified when a tank doesn't have their tanking stance(pre-30 for war/drk and pre-40 for pld). In my scenario in expert I wouldn't have been able to hold hate without my tanking stance, again that was with losing ONLY 2 weapon damage. I know what I'm doing, and know how to generate a lot of hate, you take a newbie who's still learning, drop them in dungeons without their tanking stance, and not level and item synced, then no they do not have "abundant hate generation".

I don't lose hate to i275 DPS on my PLD with an i235 weapon who sits in SwO after 3 GCDs in the opener so I've no idea how you're managing to lose hate on WAR with only a 15 ilvl difference. It sounds like you're either doing something wrong or you're being trolled with Smokescreen. Also if all else fails you can just stay in Defiance for a little longer, maybe trade out your Berserk'd FC for a Berserk'd Steel Cyclone if you're really desperate.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I don't lose hate to i275 DPS on my PLD with an i235 weapon who sits in SwO after 3 GCDs in the opener so I've no idea how you're managing to lose hate on WAR with only a 15 ilvl difference. It sounds like you're either doing something wrong or you're being trolled with Smokescreen. Also if all else fails you can just stay in Defiance for a little longer, maybe trade out your Berserk'd FC for a Berserk'd Steel Cyclone if you're really desperate.

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It doesn't happen quickly. I do an unchained berserk opener and sit in deliverance for the fight. In deliverance with a 260 weapon a 275 dps does outpace my hate generation. It's not a major problem at all, at most I'd only have to jump back into defiance for one hate combo. I was merely using as an example of what a difference a relatively small ilevel makes, especially without tank stance and relating it to newbie tanks who don't know every tiny nuance of the game.

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Originally Posted by Seku

More like FF14 is super easy mode and a tank that wants to keep hate, will have hate vs DPS, It's not the most efficient, but if you're going for that should probably gather a team to consistently run with you.

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I only ever run content from DF. Never done PF and maybe just a handful of FC premade. I have no issues with holding hate, and I don't really have those "must run dungeon perfectly efficient" OCD worries. I go into DF figuring some slop, and I don't sweat it when slop occurs.

Just saying that what used to be a group dynamic (even in games where tanks had similar aggro generation tools) is now the responsibility of one player. Somewhere along the timeline of MMO history, it shifted, simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Venjenz

I only ever run content from DF. Never done PF and maybe just a handful of FC premade. I have no issues with holding hate, and I don't really have those "must run dungeon perfectly efficient" OCD worries. I go into DF figuring some slop, and I don't sweat it when slop occurs.

Just saying that what used to be a group dynamic (even in games where tanks had similar aggro generation tools) is now the responsibility of one player. Somewhere along the timeline of MMO history, it shifted, simple as that.

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I distinctly remember in the Dark Age of Camelot game that managing aggro was a thing that was (while primarily the concern of the tank), was considered a party-wide responsibility. Then again, if I remember correctly aside from a few things you were kind of expected to be able to eat damage from a mob without instantly keeling over.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Because of game design. If hate is easy to hold, people assume you will, and in FFXIV tanks have abundant hate generation. Don't know about other games.

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The last two games I played, BnS and WoW, totally dumbed down hate generation but in return tanking is more active and timing is way more important.

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Originally Posted by spelley

I distinctly remember in the Dark Age of Camelot game that managing aggro was a thing that was (while primarily the concern of the tank), was considered a party-wide responsibility. Then again, if I remember correctly aside from a few things you were kind of expected to be able to eat damage from a mob without instantly keeling over.

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What I remember from healing and DPS back in the day was it being my job to not take aggro from the tank. That was the challenge - to DPS max possible without drawing aggro. In EQ1 raiding, when they introduced summoning, the goal was to stay out of the top four on the hate list, iirc, or you got summoned to boss and squashed. I know the vanilla AO raids on stuff like Ian Warr/Ace Camp were very long, drawn out affairs of building tank aggro, and DPS followed really strict rules to not wreck it.

It's just different now, where DPS are expected to go HAM and if the tank loses aggro, the tank sucks. A new paradigm in the genre, as it were.

Uhm, Honestly though, mind you i did skim over some of the pages.
Has anyone actually given any thought to the fact, said tank in the OP's little anecdote, could have been just a kid around 13-14 years old?
Given the PG rating of the game being rated at Teen, one should account for that.

And getting into games and mmo's in particular myself at that age I can surely attest to the fact that a 13 year old kid pulls of some dumbass shyte, not because he doesn't want to learn to play the game, or his class for that matter, but simply because youthful impatience and the drive to do "this one cool thing after this other cool thing" tends to take priority over all the rest.

And let's hypothetically assume that this was the case in the OP's story, then, the aforementioned statements of trying to teach this person how to play and explaining it over a multitude of times and having patience with that player is not only a necessity, but also our duty as older more experienced players.

These are just my 2 cents, i merely figured I should raise the point as it had seemingly not been done so before now.

Greets.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

You are missing one important thing from that list: Your weapon. The weapon is by far the most important piece of equipment for doing damage and generating aggro.

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Thanks for catching that. Have an upvote. I also had a regular level 15 sword and shield at the time, eventually getting the item level 17 ones during dungeon. However, my point still stands since others have brought up the level discrepancy and the job stones increases damage output from other party members.

As a player who's returned after a year and a half, and who's been considering leveling his PLD, this thread is making me seriously think twice about it; especially as my PLD is lvl 52. Who's going to believe someone with this level is "new again" to the class and cut them some slack? Who's going to believe that said player isn't prepared to do speed runs with massive AoE trains pulled to just before the boss? Reading all of this vitriol about tanks from the tanking community personally has me astounded. We all know the pressures of tanking and accept that as part of the role, but as a community we should be supporting up-and-coming or returning tanks rather than tearing them down.

As soon as I got the PLD job I didn't most of my leveling via dungeons so I had a pretty good grasp of the class at the time. However; after coming back and trying out a couple guildhests to see if I remembered anything proved to me that I had lost "the touch". In this case it didn't have anything to do with not knowing skills, it was about lost muscle memory and getting the mental state of tanking back.

One may disparage new, inexperienced, or less-than-perfect tanks; just keep in mind that these people are trying, and that most "new" peoples' circumstances are different from those who've been playing regularly for years. If, for some reason you find yourself in a dungeon as DD, keep in mind that someone else is tanking so that you can level your damage class, just as you play your tank so someone else can DD.

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Originally Posted by Illmaeran

*snip*.

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I'm in almost the exact same situation as you. Came back after a 1.5 year absence (birth of my son), played as my DRG exclusively for a couple weeks to get back into things and now pretty nervous about getting back into using my DRK. Basically went trial by fire and ran a couple of Expert Roulettes after doing some dummy tests. Felt really awkward and I apologized ahead of time doing large pulls. Likely, I'll just do smaller pulls in the future until I get my muscle memory back and I'd suggest you do the same. Pull as much as you feel comfortable and come out at the start saying that you are just back from a long hiatus and getting back into the game. Thus far I haven't run into any assholes.

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Originally Posted by spelley

Thus far I haven't run into any assholes.

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For the most part they're rare. Just get them through the dungeon in a reasonable competent manner and you'll be fine and get back into things rather quickly. You might occasionally get someone telling you to pull more but in that case just do it and if you die, oh well now they look stupid.