[SUGGESTION] Modify the function of "Need" option for loot

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Originally Posted by Mholito

Gearing two jobs at the same time, alternating for each dungeon, for example? My need of gear for the job I'm not currently using is more important to me than your seals and/or desynth.

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Simple solution: Focus one job at a time. I'm sorry, but if I can be bothered to play a job for a specific type of gear I need to desynth, I am needing. The system ain't broken, it's people with mentality that they should have everything without putting in the effort/using what they lot for that is broken.

Edit: And again, why is dungeon gear, that is replaced in a week or two, or less, more important than our long term goals/gear?

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Originally Posted by Mholito

Gearing two jobs at the same time, alternating for each dungeon, for example? My need of gear for the job I'm not currently using is more important to me than your seals and/or desynth.

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Focus on the bold here. You are putting your need above someone else's. Think about it. That's no different than keeping the Need function as is.

Let me turn this around for you:

My need of gear for seals and/or desynth is more important to me than the job you're not currently using.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

I consider the greeded gear a nice bonus - I still have to roll against three (or seven) other people to get it. So securing some gear beforehand by picking the job for it, is just careful planning.
You get the need option for the job you're on too - if thats not the job you want gear for, you're obviously playing the wrong job.

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How do you plan for what randomly chose gear is gonna drop from whatever instance you do? If everyone rolled need on everything they could, you'd have a 1 in 7 chance (for amrour. 1 in 13 for weapons) to get a guaranteed piece of loot each time something dropped. If everyone greeded on everything that dropped, you'd have a 1 in 4 chance (or 1 in 8 if it's an 8-man party) to get any piece of gear that dropped. People are severely overestimating how much such a change is gonna affect their seal aquisition.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

How do you plan for what randomly chose gear is gonna drop from whatever instance you do? If everyone rolled need on everything they could, you'd have a 1 in 7 chance (for amrour. 1 in 13 for weapons) to get a guaranteed piece of loot each time something dropped. If everyone greeded on everything that dropped, you'd have a 1 in 4 chance (or 1 in 8 if it's an 8-man party) to get any piece of gear that dropped. People are severely overestimating how much such a change is gonna affect their seal aquisition.

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Are you seriously just gonna repeat what this thread has already been through? Have you even read more than the first page? If nothing drops for our job, cool, no biggie, can run again. If something drops for our job, and we still can't get anything because our lots are low, this is pushing it. We have more a chance of getting stuff by being able to need what may drop, than by having to greed everything.

Edit: Oh, and don't forget tanks and healers, why would they need to be tanking and healing when they have the same chance of their gear on other jobs? Everyone role dps!

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Originally Posted by Zigabar

Focus on the bold here. You are putting your need above someone else's. Think about it. That's no different than keeping the Need function as is.

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The bolded part was added deliberately. It's the same thing Settisama said about her needs. We both have our own reasons for why we want the loot that drops, so why should one of those be prioritized over the other?

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Originally Posted by Mholito

The bolded part was added deliberately. It's the same thing Settisama said about her needs. We both have our own reasons for why we want the loot that drops, so why should one of those be prioritized over the other?

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Because I am ON the job I am NEEDING on. I am playing a job to get that specifically, therefore my NEED is greater than your 'need' for what you ain't bothering to play at the time. That's why it works for me, not for you.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

How do you plan for what randomly chose gear is gonna drop from whatever instance you do?

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Simple: I plan what I want gear for and choose the right job for it. I was refering to other needs than seals - as in: my retainers (I'll choose the job they're on) or desynth (I'll choose a job that gets gear for my crafters to take apart - for example a healer when I want to push my weaver).
You're all about "making it fair" and "giving everyone a fair chance" when you fail to realise that everyone HAS a fair chance since everyone can go into every dungeon at every class and get the need-option for gear for that class.

this is a troll thread right

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Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

this is a troll thread right

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Unfortunately not, it's an argument from another thread that the OP decided was worth another thread. While some things may seem Troll-like, the detail she went into would have been trolling herself if not completely legit.

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

Are you seriously just gonna repeat what this thread has already been through? Have you even read more than the first page? If nothing drops for our job, cool, no biggie, can run again. If something drops for our job, and we still can't get anything because our lots are low, this is pushing it. We have more a chance of getting stuff by being able to need what may drop, than by having to greed everything.

Edit: Oh, and don't forget tanks and healers, why would they need to be tanking and healing when they have the same chance of their gear on other jobs? Everyone role dps!

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Are there any counterpoints other than "I don't like change", "Don't take away my seals" and "Don't be so entitled"?
Remember: It's not just you who is no longer rolling need on anything. The vast majority of people you'll run into will also not be needing on anything. Let's look at the numbers again:

"Greed only": 1/4 chance to get stuff in dungeons.
"Need only": 1/7 chance to be able to need on armour + 3/7 chance that nobody will be able to need on armour, in which case 1/4 chance to get it through greed. Total: 1/7 + 3/7 * 1/4 = 1/4 Little to no change in loot gotten from dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

Are there any counterpoints other than "I don't like change", "Don't take away my seals" and "Don't be so entitled"?

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How about "fine as is" or "working as intended" or "use POTD and never want for leveling gear again"

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Originally Posted by Mholito

Are there any counterpoints other than "I don't like change", "Don't take away my seals" and "Don't be so entitled"?
Remember: It's not just you who is no longer rolling need on anything. The vast majority of people you'll run into will also not be needing on anything. Let's look at the numbers again:

"Greed only": 1/4 chance to get stuff in dungeons.
"Need only": 1/7 chance to be able to need on armour + 3/7 chance that nobody will be able to need on armour, in which case 1/4 chance to get it through greed. Total: 1/7 + 3/7 * 1/4 = 1/4 Little to no change in loot gotten from dungeons.

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I need cloth gear. Smn gear drops, no other Smn or Blm. 100% chance to get it with need, 25% chance to get with greed. Yeah, I'll take my 100%. If I wanted leather, I would go Nin or Mnk, see the point?

Sorry, but this system is fair as it is. Want the gear, play the job, simple solution. The biggest counterpoint, is that the system ain't broken, we shouldn't be fixing what ain't broke. YOU need to try to validate your points for a change, but all you are doing is repeating what has already been discussed pages back, and has already been shot down by logic.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

Are there any counterpoints other than "I don't like change", "Don't take away my seals" and "Don't be so entitled"?
Remember: It's not just you who is no longer rolling need on anything. The vast majority of people you'll run into will also not be needing on anything. Let's look at the numbers again:

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I'm a bit surprised right now that all those "Remove need"-people didnt simply propose a token-system... like we had for several ARR-dungeons (snowcloak, Qarn etc. - tokens that could be exchanged for the ilvl90-job-gear) - so everyone could roll need on everything adn just get what they want in the end... but I guess that would be to easy...

Other than that, just as Settiesama said: I'll take my 100% on some drops and accept that others have a 100% aswell over 25% on all drops...

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Originally Posted by Mholito

Are there any counterpoints other than "I don't like change", "Don't take away my seals" and "Don't be so entitled"?

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none of those points matter. the only thing that does matter is you choose to play a job for that instance you get the benefits of playing that job for that instance. you reward effort.

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

I need cloth gear. Smn gear drops, no other Smn or Blm. 100% chance to get it with need, 25% chance to get with greed. Yeah, I'll take my 100%. If I wanted leather, I would go Nin or Mnk, see the point?

Sorry, but this system is fair as it is. Want the gear, play the job, simple solution. The biggest counterpoint, is that the system ain't broken, we shouldn't be fixing what ain't broke. YOU need to try to validate your points for a change, but all you are doing is repeating what has already been discussed pages back, and has already been shot down by logic.

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It seems we will not be able to find an agreement in this matter. I am in support of this system because it would reserve the need button only for those that want that particular item, as opposed to those that only want it for its numeric value. The only other change it would have, is that whether or not you get a drop is determined when people are rolling, rather than when the drop is determined. I see this as the ideal use of the need/greed system. It is clear that most people do not share this view though, so I'll leave it here.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

It seems we will not be able to find an agreement in this matter. I am in support of this system because it would reserve the need button only for those that want that particular item, as opposed to those that only want it for its numeric value. The only other change it would have, is that whether or not you get a drop is determined when people are rolling, rather than when the drop is determined. I see this as the ideal use of the need/greed system. It is clear that most people do not share this view though, so I'll leave it here.

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What exactly is the problem with asking if you want a certain piece? Play the job, get the loot for that job. Not on the job, ask if you may have it. Why is this so hard? That 'numeric value' is more important to alot of people than the piece itself as it helps them to get something even more important to them. For ilvl, it will be replaced VERY quickly. For glamour? Choose the job or ask.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

Are there any counterpoints other than "I don't like change", "Don't take away my seals" and "Don't be so entitled"?

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Perhaps read the actual thread where plenty of suggestions were made. Suggestions that enhance fairness of the current system. Instead of enhancing laziness and entitlement of a secondary perk.

If players actually ran content on the job they wanted gear for instead of a chance at Greed lotting it on others. Duty finder in all level ranges would have more diversity. With DPS Role being the highest % of players, Alt leveling and gearing other Roles with DF is an overall community gain. As you are learning and gaining XP on said job/role in group content, which benefits everyone.

Players relying on Greed Perking for Alt jobs or want the system changed to benefit them devalues player skill within the community IMO. Which is a highly discussed and controversial topic on these forums.

The progression in FFXIV is swift and there's always a chance to get the gear so not looting a gear that is an upgrade is not as problematic as in WoW, where there are weekly and daily locks on loot per run meaning that people could lose a week of progression because other just wanted some gold that could be farmed in less than 1 hour (which, curiously enough, is why the Need Before Greed looting system -the one DF uses- was born).

A system like that could be made? Yeah. But it's not really that urgent (though, since I started in WoW, seeing people Needing on stuff for anything but glamour or gearing up, will always kill me a bit inside)

On the other side, and regarding all these complaints about the OP: How is avoiding overgeared people Need on items punishing? If it works for 4 or 8 players in the party, that systems would have you stand an actual chance to obtain gear to desynthetize/GC/whatever for gear that someone else in your party would need otherwise even if overgeared. Literally, you take out the barrier of the Need button when you farm though dungeons. If one run only gives NIN gear, the whole party won't be outright denied their chance to get loot by the only NIN that's there. And since there're more chances that loot that isn't for your Job to appear, it just would be an improvement on a personal side.

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

What exactly is the problem with asking if you want a certain piece? Play the job, get the loot for that job. Not on the job, ask if you may have it. Why is this so hard? That 'numeric value' is more important to alot of people than the piece itself as it helps them to get something even more important to them. For ilvl, it will be replaced VERY quickly. For glamour? Choose the job or ask.

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The need button should still only be available for the appropriate class/job. You want a particular drop for glamour? Run with a job that can equip it, and you're guaranteed to get it if it drops, unles there is someone else in the party that is also there for that particular item. Want gear for two jobs at the same time? Run as one of them, and you're practically guaranteed to get all gear for the job you run, and have a 1/4 chance to get gear for the other if it drops. Want seals? Greed on everything, and you'll get about a fourth of the loot that drops.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

The need button should still only be available for the appropriate class/job. You want a particular drop for glamour? Run with a job that can equip it, and you're guaranteed to get it if it drops, unles there is someone else in the party that is also there for that particular item. Want gear for two jobs at the same time? Run as one of them, and you're practically guaranteed to get all gear for the job you run, and have a 1/4 chance to get gear for the other if it drops. Want seals? Greed on everything, and you'll get about a fourth of the loot that drops.

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So, basically roll need for the role you play and greed on everything else? Is that not what we have right now?

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Originally Posted by Mholito

The need button should still only be available for the appropriate class/job. You want a particular drop for glamour? Run with a job that can equip it, and you're guaranteed to get it if it drops, unles there is someone else in the party that is also there for that particular item. Want gear for two jobs at the same time? Run as one of them, and you're practically guaranteed to get all gear for the job you run, and have a 1/4 chance to get gear for the other if it drops. Want seals? Greed on everything, and you'll get about a fourth of the loot that drops.

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Why are my seals AND DESYNTHS less important than gear you'll replace in a few days or glamour on a job you can't be bothered to play?

Read the entire thread before you spit out what has already been debated.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

I don't understand the logic of pushing for a system that punishes tanks and healers for using duty finder.

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Lol, reached post limit. They have literally only come up with one reason for this push, one reason, no matter how different they have worded it, it's still a sole reason: They think looting for gear on a job they won't/don't want to play as for said gear is more important than a person playing said job needing gear for progress other than ilvl/glamour.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

Seals < ilevel increase for job being played currently
Seals = ilevel increase for job not being played currently
Glamour for job being played currently = ilevel increase for job being played currently

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You seem to keep missing out Desynths for some odd reason, is this because you can't defend your case against it? Joining as a job to specifically need a certain type of gear?

You STILL have not answered how your short term ilvl increase for a job you won't even use for the gear is more important than/equal to our long term goal/gear from Seals and Desynths

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Originally Posted by Mholito

There is loosing a roll due to luck of the draw. Then there is loosing a roll due to someone who doesn't give a rat's behind about that particular item deciding that the 800 seals they could get from it is important enough to completely remove your chance of getting a 30 ilevel increase for one of the other jobs you're leveling at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Mholito

Edit: Just because I don't think your 800 seals are worth more than my 20 ilevel upgrade for an alt, doesn't mean I think the opposite is the case. I believe they are roughly equal in importance, and therefore should have an equal priority in determining who gets it.

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Lol wut? Your first post basically stated that you thought the value of seals =/= 20ilevel increase. But then all the sudden you think they are equal priority... Ok?

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Originally Posted by Mholito

It seems we will not be able to find an agreement in this matter. I am in support of this system because it would reserve the need button only for those that want that particular item, as opposed to those that only want it for its numeric value.

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So what exactly is your point then....?

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Originally Posted by Mholito

The need button should still only be available for the appropriate class/job. You want a particular drop for glamour? Run with a job that can equip it, and you're guaranteed to get it if it drops, unles there is someone else in the party that is also there for that particular item. Want gear for two jobs at the same time? Run as one of them, and you're practically guaranteed to get all gear for the job you run, and have a 1/4 chance to get gear for the other if it drops. Want seals? Greed on everything, and you'll get about a fourth of the loot that drops.

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Oh I get it... you're back to the beginning where you think seals < ilevel increase.

So let me get this straight then, you want people to click greed if they want them for seals simply because someone else may happen to need it for ilevel increase, but in all other examples you will allow for Need rolls?

I'm amazed at your inability to realize that in all your posts, everything is a complete contradiction.

A dragoon is not and should not be equally deserving of healer gear as the WHM thats actually running the dungeon. It doesn't matter what the WHM intends to do with the gear, they queued as the class, they get first dibs. If they dont want it, everyone else has a chance to win it. The system is fair, it doesn't need to be tinkered with.

Queue times are already going to be shit come 4.0 launch. I don't understand the logic of pushing for a system that punishes tanks and healers for using duty finder.

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

Lol, reached post limit. They have literally only come up with one reason for this push, one reason, no matter how different they have worded it, it's still a sole reason: They think looting for gear on a job they won't/don't want to play as for said gear is more important than a person playing said job needing gear for progress other than ilvl/glamour.

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The wild thing is, if they actually ran as those lesser played rolls they (apparently) want gear for so so so sososos so badly, they'd be actively helping the game solve the "wait 15+ min for a tank that bails when the blue gate drops" problem we have.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

A dragoon is not and should not be equally deserving of healer gear as the WHM thats actually running the dungeon. It doesn't matter what the WHM intends to do with the gear, they queued as the class, they get first dibs. If they dont want it, everyone else has a chance to win it. The system is fair, it doesn't need to be tinkered with.

Queue times are already going to be shit come 4.0 launch. I don't understand the logic of pushing for a system that punishes tanks and healers for using duty finder.



The wild thing is, if they actually ran as those lesser played rolls they (apparently) want gear for so so so sososos so badly, they'd be actively helping the game solve the "wait 15+ min for a tank that bails when the blue gate drops" problem we have.

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perhaps the proponents of the OPs concept have missed the reasons for tank mounts and Adventurer in Need bonuses? The changes they appear to want would negate those incentive to an extent, which appears to me to be extremely counter productive.

Selfish at best.

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Originally Posted by mylam

Lol wut? Your first post basically stated that you thought the value of seals =/= 20ilevel increase. But then all the sudden you think they are equal priority... Ok?



So what exactly is your point then....?



Oh I get it... you're back to the beginning where you think seals < ilevel increase.

So let me get this straight then, you want people to click greed if they want them for seals simply because someone else may happen to need it for ilevel increase, but in all other examples you will allow for Need rolls?

I'm amazed at your inability to realize that in all your posts, everything is a complete contradiction.

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I never once said gear for classes not being played currently is worth less than an ilevel increase. Let me make it simple for you:

Seals < ilevel increase for job being played currently
Seals = ilevel increase for job not being played currently
Glamour for job being played currently = ilevel increase for job being played currently

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Originally Posted by Mholito

I never once said gear for classes not being played currently is worth less than an ilevel increase. Let me make it simple for you:

Seals < ilevel increase for job being played currently
Seals = ilevel increase for job not being played currently
Glamour for job being played currently = ilevel increase for job being played currently

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And once again: You do not get to decide what is < or =