[DEV Question] Why is this allowed?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

So, you don't like it, that's why it needs to change, despite that's how SE purposely made the system for balancing.

---

Really? In an entire thread where everyone is moaning about how calculating average item level isn't good enough for entry into DF parties? This is what you're going with here?

SE purposely made average item level the determining factor for DF entry. But because you don't like it, it has to change.

Am I doing it right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callinon

Really? In an entire thread where everyone is moaning about how calculating average item level isn't good enough for entry into DF parties? This is what you're going with here?

SE purposely made average item level the determining factor for DF entry. But because you don't like it, it has to change.

Am I doing it right?

---

I asked why you said it needed to change while saying WD is a stat capper and brings balance to the game. You said the difference between WD and main stat is nuts and no stat should be worth as high as 25 times the next, which equates to.... you... don't like it...? I'm sory, that's all I was able to infer.

Also, the thread is pointing out how people are able to bypass an average item level system and still severely hinder the party or downright make it impossible, as per Miste's example here. Discussed solutions are not perfect, but are in many ways better than what we have now, as it's exploitable.

So, no, you're doing it wrong. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callinon

Really? In an entire thread where everyone is moaning about how calculating average item level isn't good enough for entry into DF parties? This is what you're going with here?

SE purposely made average item level the determining factor for DF entry. But because you don't like it, it has to change.

Am I doing it right?

---

You are not doing it right. There is an issue here and that issue is exploiting the system to a point where people entering dungeons they are not ready for. I like to know why you have a habit of going to extremes to prove a non-existent point to fight what people are asking to change?

Not only does average needs to be met but each slot should have a minimum .
example (since we found weighed average can still be exploited)
current expert
Entry requirements:
weapon 220+
all other slots 200+
average level 230

it is not asking for a lot, nd ALL as in EVERY DF needs this

Sastasha:
all slots level 1+
weapon 10+
average, level 8

Anything under that, even in sastasha is not functional. I met a tank that was in level 1-5 gear and he was too hard to heal, even for me tying to full time it. It i way too stressful and I should not suffer a 30 min cooldown dealing with BS because people do it because they are allowed to.

We are not asking for stricter requirements to sound elitists, we are asking for higher requirements so people can function.

You know what I don't get? Why does SE allow players to wear accessories that clearly aren't for their class (Healer wearing tank accessories to boost their ilvl) Why are the shire accessories all class? It makes no sense and it only leads to the issue that the OP pointed out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Bringing attention to a loophole is a thing. Stating a solution for that loophole is another. And frankly, I still think the problem here is that the weapon is too important. For example, we all know that accessories cost less tome than little pieces or armor, which in turn cost less that big pieces. It's because accessories give the least stat and big armors give the most.

But, with such a huge emphasis put on weapons, we could end in situation where upgrading several pieces of armor would give you less DPS than the weapon alone, even tough the weapon is clearly "cheaper".

---

Why shouldn't the weapon be weighted heavily? It's intended to be our highest contributing damage boost. Making it more comparable to accessories seems silly. I, likewise, don't see why requiring people to have say ilvl 220 gear equipped to enter a ilvl 230 fight is an issue. Reducing gear weight just to accommodate people too lazy to properly upgrade is precisely why people don't. They already lack the incentive due to how easy content is. This only further diminishes it.

that's very annoying had a ninja get into a12n using 120 ironworks gear his dps was low as shit and even tried to blame myself and other dps for being bad when we were out dps'ing him and the idiot wasnt even doing mechs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

I wouldn't survive...because I didn't even have the average ilvl to enter Sohia EX. Yet I did enough DPS because I had a higher weapon.

---

But you wouldn't be able to replicate that in Sophia EX, as you would be dead most of the fight. Now swap that around with being in i255 gear and whatever ilvl your crappy gear was for the weapon. You'll be able to survive, but you go from being a glass cannon to a... well I guess tank stance DPS :I

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

That would have made sense...if only every piece of armor wouldn't add to your main damaging stat...

---

Barely. My i260 Anima has 65 more points of INT than my i270 gear :T

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

You realize that they changed main stat weight for tanks and that the world didn't crumble ?

---

Yeah the world didn't crumble with the tank change but do you realize the tank change was extremely minor? It only dealt with 2 stats and one role type. Also tanks DID lose some DPS, but since tanks don't really need high DPS (yes the community likes it, but the game doesn't require it), it didn't really affect much of anything.

Your change deals with all main stats and all jobs.

Also your idea changes SE's original design for the equipment system while mine only adds a few extra firewall rules to entry requirements for DF.

So, sorry, I still disagree that my idea is problematic compared to yours.

Mine only deals with DF entry requirements and not changing the original equipment system like yours does.

PS. Another thing is the Relic quest lines will become obsolete if weapon is the same as every other piece of gear. They won't be worth getting anymore if the weapon is only as good as an accessory piece. All that work for a piece of equip that does the same as a 375 Scripture accessory? Nope.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callinon

SE purposely made average item level the determining factor for DF entry. But because you don't like it, it has to change.

---

At this point you are just stuck on the idea that people want it changed simply because they don't like it and you are not actually adding anything to the discussion.

I pointed it out because it has a flaw. Liking or disliking it has nothing to do with it at all.

It is flawed if a player can go into a duty unable to do their main role. The DF should disallow players from queuing for something they cannot actually do properly due to lack of proper gear. The system mostly works; the only problem is the weapon being worth a lot more than other pieces.

So adding some extra requirements to the DF to acknowledge this imbalance will assist players from making mistakes not realizing they cannot do their role. Also would stop players who do it to troll or to get others to carry them so they don't need to do any work themselves.

Main point: People shouldn't be allowed to queue with gear that would make it so the team they get must carry them in order to clear the content or gear that would make it so if the team they get cannot carry them they will be completely unable to clear the content.

If I equip a level 50 i110 weapon on my BLM and queue for level 60 content I will be doing 50% less DPS than I should be doing for that content...who is going to do the extra 50% I am missing so we can clear? I guess we better hope the group I get can otherwise we are all going to waste time wiping all because the DF didn't check my weapon before letting me queue.

Did you look at my post about failing the DPS Alex Creator Normal (avg i230) check in SSS with an i110 weapon even tho the rest of my gear was 7 i270 pieces, 2 i260 pieces, and 2 i250 pieces? The weapon made it so my damage was not appropriate for the content. So if I go queue for it wearing that i110 weapon I cannot do the DPS I am required to do for the content no matter how skilled I am at the job.

Yeah, someone else might be able to pick me up and backpack me to a clear, but this shouldn't be happening simply because of improper gear which the DF queue system can and should be checking. If I get people who are unable to carry my low DPS then I wasted everyone's time by wiping the group over and over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vivi_Bushido

It's posts like these that allow someone to get away with playing like an Ice Mage in Dungeons.

---

I give you Kudos for the effors to dig 'em all!

Btw, OP is lamenting about a DUTY FINDER group. You know, a pug. A PUG. And, on top of that, of a duty they successfully done.

Tbh, this is more suited to an entitled elitism than a sincere concern about the use of duty finder. It feels to me as "I run with a PUG but I got people not geared as I demand they have to be. Fix that plox". Don't know if I need to laugh or cry.

I saw in the past people "cheating" the required ilevel using "exotic" accessories, but with a weapon, it is a first.

The proposal to require the weapon il as minimal is not viable, because when I level my characters from 1 to 59, hardly happened to get a decent weapon in the process, call it bad luck or anything else, but that proposal may lock away even legit people so it is difficult to accept as a solution, it is not uncommon to get a duty with a weapon not on par, while you are in your road to gear or level cap.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalaRu

snip

---

It's still a Level 50 weapon that is both 10 levels and 120 item levels below the content OP did. Even if it's just a PUG and even if they still eventually won (though since OP joined in progress, wipes most likely happened), why are you enabling bad playstyle and accusing OP for elitism?

If this were a tank and/or healer (bonus points if two/four) with the crappy weapon, wipes would be guaranteed and no progress would be made (especially in the unrealistic case of two tanks and healers with crappy weapons). A tank with a level 50 i110 weapon cannot hold hate against a DPS with a level 60 i255 weapon, for example. They wouldn't be able to hold hate from a single Cure.

I am amzed that this is okay with some people. Can I go into dungeons as a healer with tank stat accessories and a bad weapon too?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nestama

...why are you enabling bad playstyle and accusing OP for elitism?...

---

I had put accent on the fact that pugs are a bestiary and complaining about them is pointless.

If you join in progress you accept to go into the worst case scenario: when everything is fine, people doesn't leave.

It may happen some legit dc or people that must go, but it isn't the norm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalaRu

Btw, OP is lamenting about a DUTY FINDER group. You know, a pug. A PUG. And, on top of that, of a duty they successfully done.

---

Only after OP had to contribute to above and beyond their role. It's not as simple as your proclaimed 'people are not as geared as I want them to be' straw-man argument.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nestama

Barely. My i260 Anima has 65 more points of INT than my i270 gear :T

---

Anima 260 : INT+169
Body piece 270 : INT +169

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

Your change deals with all main stats and all jobs.

---

All jobs use the exact same formula for damage, which uses Attack Power, Weapon Damage and Determination...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

Another thing is the Relic quest lines will become obsolete if weapon is the same as every other piece of gear. They won't be worth getting anymore if the weapon is only as good as an accessory piece. All that work for a piece of equip that does the same as a 375 Scripture accessory? Nope.

---

Not "as good as 375 script acc", but not "better than all your accessories combined, including the belt". Besides, you do realize that HQ crafted cost a lot of money despite being only a slight boost compared to NQ. When you want to min-max, you take everything you can. And guess what ? If weapon is not the uber-most-important part of your gear, you can suddenly give them unique properties without breaking the balance...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

I pointed it out because it has a flaw. Liking or disliking it has nothing to do with it at all.

---

And once the weapon's weight is increased, you'll have people joining that will suddenly won't have enough HP because they will be able to enter will even lower armor than now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalaRu

I had put accent on the fact that pugs are a bestiary and complaining about them is pointless.

---

Alrighty. I expect you to carry me through content from now on (especially if you join in progress), since you see it pointless to complain about people using a weapon that makes the user mostly useless.
Of course, I won't do that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalaRu

The proposal to require the weapon il as minimal is not viable

---

Who proposed this? I didn't. So maybe you should read the thread? None of my suggestions has said that the weapon would have to be the same minimum ilevel as the content. None. I said the main problem is that level 50 weapons have no place in level 60 end game content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalaRu

because when I level my characters from 1 to 59, hardly happened to get a decent weapon in the process, call it bad luck or anything else, but that proposal may lock away even legit people so it is difficult to accept as a solution, it is not uncommon to get a duty with a weapon not on par, while you are in your road to gear or level cap.

---

My topic has nothing to do with "leveling" content. Level 60 end game content is not leveling content.

Alexander Creator Normal is not leveling content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalaRu

OP is lamenting about a DUTY FINDER group. You know, a pug. A PUG. And, on top of that, of a duty they successfully done. Tbh, this is more suited to an entitled elitism than a sincere concern about the use of duty finder. Don't know if I need to laugh or cry.

---

You have a really rude attitude towards me you know that? Pretty sure I never did or said anything rude to you so I am at a loss here. You just saw my topic and immediately labelled me something that I am actually not so you are treating me rudely over something that isn't even true no matter how much you try to paint me that way.

You know absolutely nothing about me as a person or how I play/interact with others in this game. So claiming that I am just expressing entitled elitism and I am not "sincere" as you put it just proves you have no real argument to stand on and you are just making weak attacks against me.

Pointing out a flaw with the DF system is not entitlement or elitism. Why you would think that is beyond my comprehension.

PS. I am not demanding others be geared as I see fit. I am saying the game itself should demand players be geared properly so they are actually able to do the job needed to clear the content they queue for. There should be a limit (the limit doesn't have to be minimum ilevel btw can be lower but only up to a reasonable point) on how much lower your weapon is compared to the content you are doing because, as I also proved with testing, the weapon matters too much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

...stuff...

---

I've nothing against you and don't want make any personal attack. I just expressed my thoughts about your issue. They can be questionable, of course, and you are free to disagree, as the others, and my apologies if you read it all as a personal attack against you as a person.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

All jobs use the exact same formula for damage, which uses Attack Power, Weapon Damage and Determination

---

You're still advocating changing SE's original system which they are way less likely to accept or do. Which is why I don't agree about my method being more problematic than yours.

Changing all those attributes still entails more work than just adding a line of code to the DF script which simply checks the item level of the weapon you have equipped.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Not "as good as 375 script acc", but not "better than all your accessories combined, including the belt"

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

homogenizing the value of all equipped items.

---

^this quote is what you said. Homogenizing means to make everything uniform which means to make it all equal or the same. So based on what you said to me then yeah how I replied about it ruining the relic quest because the work needed wouldn't be worth the effort/time for a piece that was the same as a 375 scripture accessory is accurate..I mean based on what you told me you wanted anyway.

If that isn't what you meant then I guess we just confused each other.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

And once the weapon's weight is increased, you'll have people joining that will suddenly won't have enough HP because they will be able to enter will even lower armor than now.

---

I never said to change the weapon's ilevel weighting....not sure where you got this from.

Adding a line to the code for the DF to check the weapon slot has nothing to do with changing the weapon slot's weight for avg item level. It's not the same thing or what I meant.

PS. Thanks for discussing this with me btw, you are pretty cool to talk back and forth with : )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalaRu

my apologies if you read it all as a personal attack against you as a person.

---

Well basically throwing "entitled" and "elitism" at me while also questioning my sincerity isn't the best way to share your thoughts imo which is why I responded how I did, but thank you for the apology I appreciate it and I am glad that we could clear that up. I also apologize if I sounded rude to you, not my intention either. I was just very confused about the things you were saying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Anima 260 : INT+169
Body piece 270 : INT +169

---

In hindsight, it probably wasn't a good idea to hastily check my own Lodestone and just hovering over one piece before heading to work. Regardless, if you nerf weapon damage, then the work going towards the Anima just... why bother?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

^this quote is what you said.

---

This is what I said just before :

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

For example, we all know that accessories cost less tome than little pieces or armor, which in turn cost less that big pieces. It's because accessories give the least stat and big armors give the most. But, with such a huge emphasis put on weapons, we could end in situation where upgrading several pieces of armor would give you less DPS than the weapon alone, even tough the weapon is clearly "cheaper".

---

So, when I said "homogenizing" the "value" it's about the ratio cost/benefit. For example, right now, a tome weapon cost 1000 tomes, and seven gear. Since obtaining the gear is not particuraly costly, especially since creator also drop loot, let's say that the "cost" is "waiting 7 weeks". In 7 weeks, you can accumulate 3150 tomestone, that you can spend in many different ways. 1000 of them can be used to buy either the weapon of the "light" armor (Head, hands, for example), yet the benefit of the weapon is just on a whole another level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

I never said to change the weapon's ilevel weighting....not sure where you got this from.

---

You're right, this exact idea was not yours. So you wouldn't cheese the system with crap armor...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nestama

Regardless, if you nerf weapon damage, then the work going towards the Anima just... why bother?

---

Again, if you want to be optimal, any point count. It wasn't uncommon for people to complain about a non-optimal Novus weapon, when Det IV and Crit IV cost millions of gils, even tough it was barely noticeable compared to the main stats. And, as I said earlier, less emphasis on pure damage could be a good way to introduce special skills on weapons. If the Anima Weapon was not obviously more powerful than any armor you could farm, you'd have less content where you'd be rejected for not having one.

I don't really understand how people can justify this. Even a regular ol crafted LEVEL 58 WEAPON is vastly more powerful than a 110 relic. Even a weapon from the FIRST LEVELING DUNGEON OF HW is more powerful than a 110 weapon. As much as I hate throwing deadweight into PVP, just doing like 5 Frontlines is enough to have an i235 weapon for one job baseline, completing ignoring stuff like Bismarck EX (designed for people in i140 gear), crafted gear (not all of it is the expensive i250 stuff), HUNTS (FFS easiest way to get a semi-decent weapon), or sacking Lore tomes to buy the i230 one (or doing the fairly easy, heavily nerfed relic steps up to the i230 point).

This person was either a troll, threw his actual weapon away accidentally which sucks but is NOT the problem of the 7 other people trying to clear the content, or equipped the wrong weapon by accident and for some heinous reason no one asked him about it in chat (didn't read the whole thread, have no clue if anyone even said anything to him). The fact that there are people defending this is just sad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

The fact that there are people defending this is just sad.

---

You're missing the real issue here. "Required ilvl" is made to ensure that your character is able to properly do its part. If the game decided that this BLM was able to enter, then it's not a problem that he's here in that state. If he had a higher weapon, then switched it, resulting in a lower ilvl than required, then it would be a problem.

Building on that, the discussion is how the system could be tweaked to ensure that "Required ilvl" is a proper measurement. Some people advocate for higher emphasis en weapon ilvl either by adjusting the weight or putting a "min weapon ilvl required", I suggested that weapon should not have such a vastly superior impact than basically every other piece of gear, since all items are chosen in regards to their damage increase.

If armor would not increase DPS (And weapon would not increase survivability, even if only a little), I'd be totally ok to put a "AP required" and "VIT required" on duties, akin to the multiple requirements of GC Squadrons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

Okay so I know the DF has rules in place for average item level in order to queue for specific content, but I find what I just saw to be very ridiculous in terms of what the DF will allow players to do.

http://i.imgur.com/zMiA9S0.png?1
...

---

haha awesome we actually agree on something yea, this is crazy no way he should be in there with a main hand weapon like that, the only thing Id say could be off is the accessories because you have to get from crafters are drops from dungeons. But yea this player was just lazy you can buy a 150 staff just from a vender they prob where playing a different job and just said screw it and went in , totally bad idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

You're missing the real issue here. "Required ilvl" is made to ensure that your character is able to properly do its part. If the game decided that this BLM was able to enter, then it's not a problem that he's here in that state. If he had a higher weapon, then switched it, resulting in a lower ilvl than required, then it would be a problem.

---

Weren't people able to enter Duties with Crafting/Gathering accessories? or rather, entirely dressed in Crafting/Gathering gear? Or are they still able to?

It is a problem if a person is using a weapon that is both ten levels and a hundred and twenty item levels below the minimum ilvl of the content. If SE went with your suggestion, the BLM would actually do even less damage since their weapon is now more "balanced" towards i110 gear (and those secondary stats they went with... what even).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nestama

If SE went with your suggestion, the BLM would actually do even less damage since their weapon is now more "balanced" towards i110 gear (and those secondary stats they went with... what even).

---

No, the BLM would do more damage since its Attack Power would have a greater impact

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nestama

Weren't people able to enter Duties with Crafting/Gathering accessories? or rather, entirely dressed in Crafting/Gathering gear? Or are they still able to?

---

It is still possible to enter a duty only wearing crafter gear, you need only high enough average item level and you could enter ARF maybe higher, depending on your weapon and individual style of gear mixup.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, the BLM would do more damage since its Attack Power would have a greater impact

---

So let me get this straight... if SE goes with your idea and a player with a level 50 weapon, possibly in the i90 range and they enter level 60 content with mostly i260-270 gear and accessories, their DPS will still be decent because of their gear stats? What even is the point of a weapon then? i230-240, 250 and 260-270 gear are very easy to acquire (Savage being the exception), whereas a weapon requires you to earn it either by grinding PotD, doing Alexander Midas/Creator 4 or 7 times to get tokens, beating Primals, beating Alexander Prime Savage, or doing the long Anima quest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Legion88

It is still possible to enter a duty only wearing crafter gear, you need only high enough average item level and you could enter ARF maybe higher, depending on your weapon and individual style of gear mixup.

---

Alrighty, so if I find a way to equip crafter gear and still be able to enter The Creator, Reynhart would have to concede that this is perfectly alright, since the game decided to let me enter :^)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

"Required ilvl" is made to ensure that your character is able to properly do its part.

---

You cannot properly do your part with a level 50 i110 weapon in level 60 end game content. Not sure why I would have to repeat this fact at this point in the thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

If the game decided that this BLM was able to enter, then it's not a problem that he's here in that state.

---

No....I've basically shown that it is a problem with that in progress run with the BLM in my original post and also the testing I did.

The group wiped (possibly multiple times) before people ditched and DF eventually replaced half the group with people who could carry this player's low DPS due to the BLM's massively improper weapon. So not only did he waste his own time; he wasted the time of up to 11+ other players (the party was half missing when I joined). I believe the DF itself shouldn't let that happen.

As soon as you argue that "it is not a problem because the game let him queue" then...that means I could dress my tank in the full i150 crafter gear and queue for ARF/Fractal/Neverreap and no one should have any problem with it even though I won't be able to actually tank or do my job. Still no problem?

This is the gear I could wear on my tank and still queue:

http://xivdb.com/item/11959/chimeric...an+of+crafting
http://xivdb.com/item/11964/chimeric...et+of+crafting
http://xivdb.com/item/11977/chimerical+felt+skirt
http://xivdb.com/item/11982/serpentskin+shoes
http://xivdb.com/item/11969/serpents...es+of+crafting

To top all this off I could even equip healing accessories to go with this crafting gear and still queue so I would have almost no VIT and no STR.

This is just an example and it isn't really end game content (more like entry level end game) but it is basically an example showing you that the game might let you queue but obviously there are times when it shouldn't (just like my original post) and that it is a problem whether you want to accept it or not.

This is seriously not a problem that I am there in that state because the game let me queue? If you still think that then I don't know what to say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

If the game decided that this BLM was able to enter, then it's not a problem that he's here in that state.

---

Seems to me you're the one missing the problem here - unless we want to assume that having a weapon this far below the requirements for the duty is "working as intended", the system is obviously flawed, because this shouldnt happen (and I cant imagine that the devs really had this sort of thing in mind when creating the average ilvl requirement...).
Asking for this to change is totally legit - we got the minimum ilvl because it was pointed out that people were entering dungeons without proper gear. This system doesnt has to be fixed - just because the game allows for it right now doesnt mean it shouldnt be discussed how to change it to prevent such "abuse" (you cant be fine with this sort of gear in this sort of content).

So saying "But the game says its fine!" is a pretty lame answer, specially when the whole thread was about "This shouldnt be fine, please change the system somehow". Just because something is okay/"legal" at somepoint doesnt mean it cant or shouldnt change...

Oh, good. The game's still casual and impossible to fail. I was looking for something mindless as I watched my DVD collection.

hmm probably around 3000-4000 damage on fire 4 is acceptable when the ilvl requirement asks for around 5000-6000... People are only defending this coz its a dps, if it was any other role it wouldn't be tolerated for a second.

Mhmm the babysitting is real in this thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Underdog2204

People are only defending this coz its a dps, if it was any other role it wouldn't be tolerated for a second.

---

You say that, but people are also defending healers only using a fraction of their toolkit because "muh role".

Tanks are probably the only ones getting screwed out of the deal here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zojha

You say that, but people are also defending healers only using a fraction of their toolkit because "muh role".

Tanks are probably the only ones getting screwed out of the deal here.

---

Thats true but the difference is the healer wouldn't even be healing like they should.

I have been in this exact situation on a gubal hard run with WHM using a ilvl 145 cane. Couldn't keep the tank up on basic pulls.... Too right we booted that one xD

Quote:

---

Tanks are probably the only ones getting screwed out of the deal here.

---

Only shitty tanks are screwed. Good tanks do not try to be the least usefull as possible.
Nah in fact, good players in general try to perform their role as best as they are able to.
I'm pretty tolerant toward low standard dps, as long as it does not has consequences.
Still, it is not ellitis to expect a minimum from team mates. Having them endure a nice reality slap in their face is good from time to time.
Stop defending every one. When you queue in a lvl 60 content with lvl 50 weapon, you are NOT defendable.

And I approve the idea of being unable to equip a piece of gear below the minimum lvl required for the duty. Gearing up in this game is far too easy to allow such behaviors.

the white knighting is real in this thread holy fuk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

No....I've basically shown that it is a problem with that in progress run with the BLM in my original post and also the testing I did.

---

Maybe you should have read the next sentence...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Building on that, the discussion is how the system could be tweaked to ensure that "Required ilvl" is a proper measurement.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vidu

Seems to me you're the one missing the problem here - unless we want to assume that having a weapon this far below the requirements for the duty is "working as intended", the system is obviously flawed, because this shouldnt happen

---

If the same player came with i110 head, hands, and feet, no one would even have noticed...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vidu

This system doesnt has to be fixed - just because the game allows for it right now doesnt mean it shouldnt be discussed how to change it to prevent such "abuse" (you cant be fine with this sort of gear in this sort of content).

---

Hmm, yeah...that's what we do here...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Underdog2204

People are only defending this coz its a dps, if it was any other role it wouldn't be tolerated for a second.

---

Let me borrow your sentence, please. People are only bitching about this coz it's a weapon, if it was any other piece, it wouldn't matter at all.

why is this a topic? Vote Dismiss is a thing, use it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nestama

Weren't people able to enter Duties with Crafting/Gathering accessories? or rather, entirely dressed in Crafting/Gathering gear? Or are they still able to?

---

They had been able to until 1) SE made it so if the gear was so far under the ilevel for the dungeon, no EXP was gained (cannot SB) and 2) locked newer gear to Discipline of Land or Hand. Before that, yes, it was fairly common to see people in half crafting or gathering gear to SB for materia. It was incredibly frustrating.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

If the same player came with i110 head, hands, and feet, no one would even have noticed...

People are only bitching about this coz it's a weapon, if it was any other piece, it wouldn't matter at all.

---

Then you come across someone like me who says, "Dude. Why the hell are you using something that's 60 main stat below the minimum?" if it was an accessory, then probably kick them after advising them that they still need to gear up and this as not the current place to use to gear up.

While I'm sure the last sentence was sarcasm, Underdog2204 was pointing out a valid observation. People tend to overlook DPS unless things go wrong, like failing a DPS check. Which can imply various things, including, but not limited to:

1) multiple DPS are under-geared;
2) one DPS is severely under-geared to the point others are unable to make up the loss;
3) everyone's gear is fine, but they are not utilizing things correctly).

It's much easier to pick up on if a tank is under-geared (HP being below thresholds that are common) or if a healer is ill-equipped and struggling to keep the party up.

However, yes, it's all the more important in this situation since the weapon caps your other stats. As it's been stated before, and I'll use my own experience testing it, with all 270 gear but the weapon, which was i110, my DPS and healing potential was halved. Just because of the weapon. That's a huge issue and the current minimum ilevel requirement allows this flaw to slip by.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JunseiKei

As it's been stated before, and I'll use my own experience testing it, with all 270 gear but the weapon, which was i110, my DPS and healing potential was halved. Just because of the weapon. That's a huge issue and the current minimum ilevel requirement allows this flaw to slip by.

---

And I still think that your potential with an i110 head, hands, waist and feet and other gear i270 including the weapon should not be miles above having an i110 weapon and all other gear i270. That's why I suggested that more emphasis should be on Attack Power than pure weapon damage.

Yet, I'm still convinced that, if you join a party with someone having a really low body piece, you wouldn't even notice, since the DPS would be fairly acceptable for the fight. Especially on A9 which is pretty low on party-wide damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

If the same player came with i110 head, hands, and feet, no one would even have noticed...
Let me borrow your sentence, please. People are only bitching about this coz it's a weapon, if it was any other piece, it wouldn't matter at all.

---

Yeah, but thats the issue here: ONE piece of gear making a huge difference (specially compared to accessories).
So there are basically three options:
1) Average ilvl is calculated based on the "weight" the piece is contirbuting - aka weapon more than the bodypiece and the bodypiece more than your earrings
2) We seperate ilvl and weapon-ilvl
3) The contribution of the weapon to the overall damage gets lowered (atm it seems that it makes up about half of the damage instead of the 1/13 or 2/13 that it is when calculating the average ilvl)

The issue is simply: not having appropriate gear always sucks, but when it comes to the weapon is especially bad because of the system that is in place. So this seems to be a problem that should be adressed - again, just because the game allows someone with an ilvl110 weapon to enter Alexander at the moment, doesnt mean that that is okay (and quite frankly I cant imagine that thats "working as intended") and doesnt has to change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

And I still think that your potential with an i110 head, hands, waist and feet and other gear i270 including the weapon should not be miles above having an i110 weapon and all other gear i270. That's why I suggested that more emphasis should be on Attack Power than pure weapon damage.

Yet, I'm still convinced that, if you join a party with someone having a really low body piece, you wouldn't even notice, since the DPS would be fairly acceptable for the fight. Especially on A9 which is pretty low on party-wide damage.

---

Ah, now I'm getting your point - you'd go for option 3) then? And make the weapon "weaker"?
Mmh... not sure if I like that tbh - while I do see the problem here with questlines like the relic and weapons being the ultimate reward from raids I can understand that they're giving the most boost when it comes to damage - just like armor gives you more HP/protection for incoming damage. The weapon is what deals damage, the rest of the gear is what protects you - seems pretty intutive to me...
And its also a bit more "interesting" - we dont have that many choices in the game after all, but if every piece of gear basically does the same those options get even lowered when it doesnt matter if you get a new weapon or a new bodypiece.

(and btw: I do notice when the DPS, tank or healer are missing good gear in dungeons - and depending on the duty I'll say something. Had a tank in DV recently, best accessory was a level 39 earring, everything else was way below. We couldnt do the duty because the healer couldnt keep him up - probably because they were missing 2-3k HP...? And yes, this was a tank - but why should dps NOT have to care about gear?)