I'm assuming maybe Caster LB. But I may be wrong. Could be cool to see if they could make a magical version of the ranged LB or Melee LB though.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaFox
Red Mage is Range Combat? (Discussion)
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12-28-2016, 06:41 AMVanilleFang
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12-28-2016, 06:55 AMFeliAikoThe impression I get of RDM, in regards to XIV, is that the hybrid element will be expressed in combining ranged and melee abilities, as opposed to combining white and black magic. So in that sense the hybrid archetype of the Job would be retained. I expect it to get at least one (self)-heal though.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark
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12-28-2016, 07:18 AMVelhart
I mean people have to have realized beforehand that the job with how this game's mechanics work that RDM would not be one 100% in a traditional sense. I think in terms of mixing melee and ranged as a DPS is pretty much as close as you can get in keeping the tradition of RDM in the context of FFXIV's concepts.
I like this, it is a unique concept in the DoM role. -
12-28-2016, 08:07 AMAveraxThey won't. Pure DPS. A hybrid job would not work in FFXIV, Yoshi P stated this in an interview. The absolute most i expect to see is that they can cross class with THM/CNJ and get swiftcast/raise/cleric stance/cure. If they're an int job like we suspect, cleric stance will work backwards and turn it into MND, thus empowering cure. At most i'd expect them to be a last effort emergency healer.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark
They played on the words used to describe RDM to bend it to fit the game. "They use both white and black magic" turned into "They use both white and black magic...fused together". Lest we not forget that white magic in this game is not all restorative spells. -
12-28-2016, 08:24 AMAlphaFoxI mean more like the skill itself. :3Quote:
Originally Posted by VanilleFang
If its not the skill we saw, the only thing that I can even imagine is like Shantottos "Play Rough" in Dissidia, just a bombardment of spells on the location. -
12-28-2016, 08:30 AMGMERCWell, they could always (as a nod to Twincast, which is sort of the opposite of Dualcast) give them Twin Meteor (W Meteor).Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaFox
It wouldn't be too out there. The "Flare-like" spell from the footage we saw screams Pyroblast (Mini Flare, also known as Pyro in some EN translations) to me, and that was also a Twincast ability. -
12-28-2016, 10:18 AMhagareI hope it's not twin meteor. Just because I don't want another LB that blinds me everytime it goes off.Quote:
Originally Posted by GMERC
Though due to twincast I hope it's a combination of white and black magic like a fusion of holy and flare. -
12-28-2016, 11:15 AMKhalitharI'm sure there will be a nod to their traditional hybrid white magic skills, they'll probably have some sort of defensive cooldown/self heal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Averax
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12-28-2016, 12:19 PMNorthernLadMSPThen you may as well start getting pissed right now. The interview that just came out today quoted Yoshi stating they are "Pure DPS." So, they will not have support healing abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark
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12-28-2016, 12:57 PMBlonde_Huntress
I for one am excited for it. Reminds me of FFTA2, in concept at least.
Rapier and magick, but looking like a very awesome Melee DPS. Very nice addition in my opinion. I'm eager to see how it evolves, skill wise. I'm also curious if it may get its own repertoire of magick to use (like Arcan magick in XII).
#hype -
12-28-2016, 02:12 PMHagen
I wonder if it will have white magic utility spells like Haste, Phalanx for the party or even Refresh, we do miss a class with a MP Goad. At least a raise like SMN has. I think it will be wasted opportunity to not have something that helps healers out a bit, kinda like Clemency but a regen instead.
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12-28-2016, 02:19 PMGeminaThey might get their own cure spell, or be able to cross cure/physick, but that will be about it. Nothing that would allow them to keep a party up, and DPS pushers will not want to use up a gcd on a weak heal. I'd imagine they will get something though so they can survive solo battles.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark
I wanted a healing RDM as well, but have accepted this is the path they chose. It is DPS, and RDM versatility will have to pertain to this role. It really is the best way to get the most out of what FFXIV can give RDM. I'm confident it will still get support spells that can be labeled as white magic such as haste, phalanx, refresh, and perhaps even their own raise/resurrection ability. But there is no doubt that the job is geared around rapid chainspell casts mixed with melee combat to optimize damage. -
12-28-2016, 02:20 PMAlphaFoxI'd have to imagine they would be given some kind of battle raise or healing, even if your core job is DPS a skill here or there to just make a nod to its role as being able to use black and white magic. Granted calling it "red magic", lore wise, guess we just have to wait and see in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagen
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12-28-2016, 02:33 PMMhaericSince they were listed as primarily Ranged DPS in the slide, with a sub explanation of melee/ranged hybrid, I am fairly confident that they'll get a handful of support type abilities like the BRD/MCH. At the very least similar to NIN's ratio of dps to support abilities. (I am in no way saying they'll have the same function as NIN abilities, just comparing the relative focus on support.) That said, I too don't see any healing abilities being added, except maybe like a mantra or second wind. A melee range aoe Phalanx ability (e.g. 20% damage reduced for 15s for all party members within 15y of the target enemy) would be more likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
My guess for support abilities: debuff to magic and/or slashing, phalanx, speed buff, slow, silence, stun, heavy, tp/mp regen. -
12-29-2016, 12:51 AMDarkstrideOr debuff to piercing rather than slashing. Red Mage uses thrusting attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhaeric
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12-29-2016, 08:05 AMMadrone
LB & shared/unique gear are a really big deal as far as party comp goes. Need to know what they will be to get a better picture of where this hybrid DPS will fit in.
Slashing is covered with WAR or NIN. Blunt is covered by the only one who benefits from it. Piercing debuff is somewhat likely for RDM IMO, unless all its damage dealt is magical. DRG has a monopoly, and it potentially effects more than just the DRG. I'd also be fine with a more tactical/more universal damage taken debuff on a long cooldown though. Either one, or both.
Think of the utility across the board of DPS jobs (minus Ranged). RDM would have a similar degree even though its usually very high in utility, else it will be unbalanced and potentially niche itself into every "good" party comp.
ST= Single target by the way.
NIN: ST Enmity +/-, ST Slashing & All Vulnerability inflictions, ST Bind, ST heavy, ST Stun/Silence, ST TP recovery, ST normal item drop amount increase (4 pretty good things + typical debuffs)
DRG: AoE Crit rate up, ST Piercing Vulnerability infliction, ST Slow, ST Stun (2 good things, and some typical melee debuffs)
MNK: AoE Healing received +, ST Blunt Vulnerability infliction, ST Stun, ST INT -, ST Dispel (nothing all that great/pretty independent)
BLM: AoE Sleep, AoE Bind, ST Slow/Heavy, ST STR/DEX down, ST Magic damage taken -%, E4E, weak Physick (alot of cc and debuffs, and 1 good thing apocatastasis)
SMN: ST & AoE Blind, AoE Bind, ST STR/DEX/MND/INT down, combat Raise, E4E, weak Physick. Pets: ST Stun, ST knockback, weak tanking, weak damage reflection (whole lot of debuffs/flexibility, 2 good things raise/supervirus)
And then they mostly have personal things to mitigate/avoid damage, self hp/tp/mp recovery, drain-on-hit/siphon mp, and various ways to enhance personal speed/damage. NIN, SMN, BLM are on the high side of this spectrum (although caster debuffs/cc aren't that great for pve content), while DRG has less, but what it has is high value. MNK lags behind in utility due to being a personal DPS monster. I expect RDM to be on the high side like its caster brothers and NIN, and 1-2 things would be high value, even if Single Target.
Out of all that, I think RDM would have some of the following:
ST Sleep, Bind, Stun, Silence, Slow (these are pretty commonly attached to skills/spells or stand-alone GCDs/oGCDs)
ST Damage vulnerability infliction (5-10%) of Piercing, Magic, and/or All (debuff cooldowns, and/or delivered rotationally like melee jobs)
Caster/healer cross skills like Cure/Physick, Raise, Stoneskin, Swiftcast + some DPS ones (this whole system is up in the air though)
1-2 of these, and possibly more if they were self-only:
Self, ST or AoE Damage mitigation cooldown (Phalanx) or it could be personal only
Self or ST mp recovery cooldown, (Refresh self and/or party member)
Self or ST Speed boost cooldown, (Haste self and/or party member)
Self or ST party member melee damage boost cooldown (Enspell/Bravery/Faith) <-- could be reserved for a true Mystic Knight/SpellBlade
Self or ST party member damage reflection/absorbtion cooldown (Element Spikes/Reflect/Runic)
I expect RDM to get most of the typical debuffs/cc like stun, heavy, slow, bind, sleep; some kind of self-healing if not a spammable weak spell (possibly better at it than Casters), combat raise, one type of vulnerability infliction (unlike casters), ST/self Refresh, Stoneskin, and at least one variety of party/party member enhancement like but not limited to Phalanx, Haste, Spikes/Reflect, Enspell/Brave/Faith examples. Casters have some debuffs and CC, and those debuffs currently help reduce damage taken by the party rather than increase damage dealt by the party. Hopefully RDM will utility with 2-3 good things.
The problem remains... will RDM sit in a caster slot or a melee slot, or will it wind up so good its monopolizes its own slot? Its not that hard to out-compete casters at utility if you also have their LB.
Just my notes about Physick as used by Casters in general... as gear goes up its relative power level stays the same. So its healing value keeps getting lower compared to max hp. I feel SE should re-evaluate it or base attributes, as its a lot weaker than Second Wind. Though it is spammable, its just terribly under-powered and will be even moreso in 4.0 if nothing is done to adjust it or base MND. I don't think SMN or BLM need a very potent heal spell since its place is that of a general/basic spell learned from an outside school of magic. And yet if RDM had something similar, I would expect it to be stronger or to have a way to leverage it more properly in an emergency (like reverse Cleric's Stance). Caster heal's should do about 8-10% of a DPS/Healer's max hp IMO, RDM's 12-16%. Right now they do around 2% and will be even less in 4.0 without changes. -
12-29-2016, 08:21 AMGMERCI don't know if you know this, but Red Mage has existed in games besides Final Fantasy XI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Madrone
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12-29-2016, 09:14 AMMadrone
You may not have noticed this, but we do have a ton of spell, weaponskill, and ability names that were in XI. The two games are different style MMOs, but they share final fantasy jobs in common, even if the implementations are different. There might be some spells/abilities that I think FFXI did well, but you can bet that I don't love the many problems its RDM design suffered with.
Phalanx, Refresh, and Spikes are the only XI-specific things I listed. RDM have had full access to white and black spell lists up to a certain tier in most games. Even spellblade (enspell analog) has occasionally been usable by RDM. Phalanx could be pretty analagous to Apocatastasis, while Refresh would be like a variant form of Goad. Haste may forever be just an Astro card. My point was for RDM utility to dabble in party/party member defense and offense. I expect a very weak healing kit if RDM has one at all. Those things could not be present or could be self only. I'd still be happy murdering my enemies with a sword and spells. Don't hate on a guy's wishlist. I thought I was pretty specific about staying line with NIN/SMN/BLM utility, and presented it as I hope we get some/a lot of this. -
12-29-2016, 09:20 AMGMERChttp://i.imgur.com/DWZzX6c.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Madrone
Literally only in FFXI.
Which means RDM using spellblade is actually equally irrelevant to the job as equipping maces, which they've also done only one time ever. -
12-29-2016, 01:13 PMMadrone
@GMERC FFXI is not the only one. Not a numbered title, but RDM also had Spellblade skills in Final Fantasy Dimensions. Magic Sword was pretty much the full spellblade set, while Attune Blade was Runic. I get that nerdy compulsion to correct factual errors too, but in fact RDM has had weapon enchantments in at least 2 games, aka what I meant by occasionally.
I suggested alternative names for self or ST ally damage boosts, Bravery and Faith. Should I have also listed more synonymous names for this kind of thing, maybe Sabre and Temper? They'd all have similar results when translated into XIV abilities, damage up. One reason weapon enchantment sticks out for personal use is that it can make all RDM damage be magical and use INT instead of potentially needing stance swaps to shift between magical and physical attacks. Almost all DPS have innate full-time/nearly-full-time damage boosts, whether its Maim and Mend type traits, Poisons, Heavy Thrust, Greased Lightning, WM/GB, or Astral Fire. So what do you think RDM's should be?
There's the usual debuffs and cc that most dps or casters have, some general cross role skills to hope for, and 6 examples of moderate - strong utilities I listed, of which I hope RDM gets 2-3. I'm sorry the names of some of those things were in FFXI. None of them are all that much of a stretch from what is in XIV already. And I'm mostly concerned with things that can effect the party or one party member. That utility space is limited and powerful in making a job desirable. There's quite a bit more room for personal buffs, which some of these might very well be instead.
Specific damage type vulnerability infliction is common and part of what drives some melee jobs' rotations. Broader types (magical, physical, all) are less common and either long cooldown or like Foe's use a finite resource that might be needed for a different effect.
Combat raise.
Any of these can be self-only instead:
An offensive bonus usable on a party member like Haste/Temper/Sabre/Enspell/Bravery/Faith would be great, and would be a cooldown, not a spell. Pick one of those whose name you prefer. Alternately as self buffs or stacks resulting from combo actions or chainspells any one of these could drive a rotation or be RDM's reason to change range & attack type.
Refresh could easily be the mirror image of Goad, for mp.
Phalanx could be similar to Apocatastasis and any other damage reduction cooldown, or it could be a weak shield that stays on until its duration is up no matter how much damage is taken. Runic could be a similar ability and probably personal.
Spikes or Reflect could be used on a tank to help contribute more damage like Radiant Shield's effect. -
12-29-2016, 01:22 PMAniond
Another thing to keep in mind they are redoing the combat system. So who really knows what the big picture is.
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12-29-2016, 02:03 PMDoranderThis is such a misconception. They aren't 'redoing' the combat system. It's going to be the same in 4.0 as it has been since 2.0. They are just taking a look over the skills. Seeing what works, what doesn't, what isn't used, and either deleting them or reworking them. That's it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aniond
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12-29-2016, 04:09 PMTeiren
To be fair, the other part of "combat system overhaul" is remaking Enochian, maybe Greased Lightning, and maybe Darkside. Those could be substantial, but yeah, the game isn't getting anything fundamentally huge like changing the GCD, removing global server tick, removing delay of others' movements on your screen, etc. I was expecting we would be getting an option to collapse the various weaponskill combos into one button each, but it seems like that won't happen, oh well.
Anyway, to stay on-topic: Red Mage will primarily play like Black Mage, in my opinion. That means it'll spend about 80-90% of its time at range but unlike BLM will need to melee for MP or something, probably. I believe the video shown at Fanfest shows 3 different actions before the mini-Flare at the end: An Ability to get into melee (the holy tether at the beginning), a Weaponskill to cause damage with some personal benefit (the rapier barrage), and a second Ability to leap back with a slash (like Elusive Jump with damage). I've also considered the possibility that the backwards leap is actually the same Ability as the holy tether but dynamically changed to a leap after use, starting its recast after 10 seconds or leaping back, or something like that. Keep in mind Ability means off the GCD, Weaponskill/Spell means on the GCD. I very much doubt Red Mage will have any actual weaponskill combos like DRG but instead activated weaponskills like Monk.
The only problem is that, unless they do something hokey like making some spells literally have a minimum range requirement to do full damage or be cast at all (both VERY bad ideas), I don't know how they expect to "force" Red Mage to fight at range. Then again, just the naturally HUGE benefit of being able to attack at range will likely be enough by itself. -
12-29-2016, 04:19 PMShurrikhanIt's a skill by skill re-look that will either (a) buff/modify the skill, or (b) remove the choice entirely, focused only on those skills that are already rarely used, have designs that cause unnecessary contention in reaching what the skill was designed for, or could be better visually integrated for job identity. Little to nothing is be changed about the combat system itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aniond
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12-29-2016, 04:24 PMMhaeric
The major overhaul will not be to core mechanics or even to specific abilities, although there will still tweaks to those. Enochian was one in particular that was said to be receiving a way to make it less punishing to your dps numbers if you lose it mid-cycle.
The mayor overhaul will be to cross-class skills. Currently each cross-skill is specific to a class, and each job can only draw on two class' cross-skills. This leaves some key abilities missing for certain jobs. E.g. Keen Eye for ninjas. The change will be that jobs will instead pull from an archetype list of cross class skills instead of two classes cross class skills. This means that all melee dps will have invigorate, all dex dps will have keen eye, all casters will have swiftcast, etc regardless of their secondary and tertiary classes. In fact, tertiary class will no longer be a meaningful phrase since only the secondary class will still have impact for those jobs that require level 15 in it to unlock. -
12-29-2016, 04:27 PMShurrikhanYou take a traditionally hybrid class, and then show zero indications of it being a hybrid in the first trailer you release for it. Either you were horribly pressed for time, or you'd rather not point to it being a hybrid. Giving them the benefit of the doubt (competent and on time), it would seem the latter. Limited to three skills or not, it's what you're releasing—not just to the effect that "RDM is happening" (for which the single picture would have sufficed) but also how.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaFox
If they're giving the wrong impression here, that's on them. But they probably aren't. The ineffectiveness of feedback is only going to get worse by the day, so why shouldn't people speak up on the subject now, while potentially under-informed, than later, when looking at something concrete (and thereby unchangeable)? -
12-29-2016, 04:47 PMTeiren
They said it fills the Caster role. That means being able to attack at range and having high AoE damage. Sorry, but Red Mage isn't going to dramatically change from that. I think Red Mage is cool, I'm highly looking forward to it, but I think it's had a slightly dysfunctional design from the beginning of the series, so something about it will have to be shoehorned in when it's in a game with strictly described gameplay and content.
The idea of hybrid as it's been presented throughout the series absolutely does not work in a modern MMORPG unless every other class has a similar hybrid design. It's just logic when you're talking about a game that's extremely tightly tuned at the highest levels of difficulty (which unfortunately everyone has to suffer for): If a Red Mage was good enough at both damage and healing, then it would probably become possible to do difficult things with one healer if your Red Mage player was good enough. That sounds nice, but the raids would have to be tuned around your party having a Red Mage or else they'd be too easy. Therefore, parties would be FORCED to have a Red Mage, and that is a design FFXIV will never do. Not only is that known to be poor design for an MMO, but also the battle content guy that designed all of the Coils of Bahamut outright said they learned their lesson from Melusine and how Summoners interacted with that fight to never require, or nearly require, a specific job ever again.
So this time "hybrid" is going to mean combining the elements of White and Black Magic offensively. It's still going to be a hybrid in theme, just not in gameplay past a few weaponskills. -
12-29-2016, 05:55 PMMhaeric
The actual quotes from the slideshow in the keynote, grouped by relatedness:
There's two ways in which they use the term hybrid.Quote:
"Role: DPS (Ranged DPS)"
"Ranged attacks using magic"
"Melee attacks using rapier"
"A hybrid ranged/melee style achieved via high-speed positioning"
"Deal massive damage by linking multiple spells with chainspell and following them up with with melee attacks."
"Red magic = Black & white magic hybrid."
First is that they're primarily a ranged dps job that casts spells at a distance, however they will hybridize this with melee attacks via 'teleporting' abilities. My guess is that the teleporting abilities will be baked into the massive damage combo. I.e. in order to achieve the burst effect you actually have to use the positional change ability. E.g. each step in this combo has to be successfully completed to reach the end of the combo in which most of the potency is loaded into the final ability: Spell 1 --> Spell 2 --> Spell 3 --> gap closer+damage ---> Melee attack --> leap back+damage --> High potency spell 4. I.e. Effectively a ranged caster that jumps into and out of melee occasionally to be able to unlock their burst damage. Note that the combo I outlined appears to be what the video example shows.
The second way they use the term 'hybrid' is when talking about magic. I suspect this will be a more literal hybridization of white and black rather than saying that they'll use white magic and black magic as separate entities. I.e. they're warlocks who have figured out a way to mix both black and white magical energy into a single spell at a time.
They don't ever use 'hybrid' to mean the traditional MMO definition of being able to fill more than one role in a party. I.e. they're not able to be both a healer and a dps for example. -
12-30-2016, 02:27 AMMadroneYeah, the degree of change is probably going to be relatively small. Cross Class skills are being overhauled so that there's more homegenity in what is available (MCN not having Second Wind comes to mind). Meanwhile it seems that these skills may be removed from the classes they came from. The number of choices may increase. Some skills that are underused/under-powered may be removed entirely or fixed. We'll have new skills from level 61-70, but the total number of skills each job has will be about the same as now. Parry and Accuracy are probably going to be removed. New UI job-specific elements will be added making it easier to keep track of your job's main buff. Some abilities may change to reduce the penalty for doing things wrong (Enochian drop was an example). I even suspect they may unify skill speed and spell speed (as that's a problem for a hybrid DoM/DoW like RDM), but there's been no mention of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorander
While that's a lot of change. Its not a sweeping adjustment to the GCD/oGCD skills, combos/procs, DoT/buff maintenance, tab-targeted combat we have now. -
12-30-2016, 04:02 AMDoranderMy point exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Madrone