3.5/4.0 Speculation & Discussion (Spoilers)

And here I was expecting to come back to a bunch of flames calling me a Nazi apologist. (That would totes have happened in General Discussion.)

At any rate, I suspect the key to resolving the conflict with Garlemald will be helping them (or the future leader of our choice) find a positive outlet for whatever long pent-up frustrations are now being vented on the world at large. Simply destroying all their technology and leaving them powerless again would just start the cycle over.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Off-topic!

Anyone else fight G-rated Ragyo yet? She's pretty strong huh?

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THAT WAS CRAZY. Of course there's never ontological inertia in a setting where creatures like Arceus can exist, but that was far above and beyond the usual climax boss.

I don't think revenge is bad as much as the mindless hatred. Nidhogg's revenge really stopped being about revenge. The parties responsible for what happened were long dead. He just transferred his hatred onto another target and that unending hatred consumed him and his brood. I find a good counterpoint to that is Novv. Nidhogg allowed his rage to bring ruin for 1000 years, even to his own brood. Novv still has his anger but he isn't willing to sacrifice the future of his children to satisfy it.

Justice and vengeance overlap a lot. DRKs are literally empowered by anger, pain and thirst for vengeance. It is allowing yourself to be consumed by that darkness which is bad. Nidhogg allowed himself to be consumed by his anger and rage and became little more than a distructive force for everyone, including his own.

I agree that Garlemald as it is currently isn't something we will ally with. I do think however that Ala Mhigo will drag us into an internal conflict within Garlemald which might shift the balance of power and allow for the rise of a more moderate leadership for Garlemald. I feel very confident that we will see 5.0 as the Garlemald expansion. Just remember we basically seem to have the crown prince of Garlemald in Ala Mhigo. If he or the Emperor dies we could see some drastic shifts. If both die we likely have a full blown civil war erupting across Garlemald again as people grab for power.

Relevant, sort of:

http://68.media.tumblr.com/c0c33d844...9a7o1_1280.png

I made it earlier since - unsurprisingly - a lot of my in-game time is devoted to Garlean stuff too. ;)

(I figured some of you lot would find it amusing.)

I think it would be a pretty interesting twist if we get to Garlemald and discover a Legatus who happens to also have the echo and be working for Hydaelyn. Kind of like Iceheart in the view that what they are doing is for the greater good of Hydaelyn. The Garleans already have that view but it would interesting to have to deal with someone who is basically on our side of the playing board but who believes that Hydaelyn needs Garlemald, its power and its ingenuity to survive and that Garlemald, as flawed as it might be, is the planet's best chance.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

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I could see that happening and it reminds me of a particular plot point in FF7. Shinra were antagonists for much of the game's vast plot and despite the organisations Mako Reactors literally bleeding the planet of vital energy it was a Shinra weapon that proved powerful enough to breach the barrier blocking access to Sephiroth's lair. In short, without Shinra the main party and everybody on the planet would have been screwed. Interestingly enough once Sephiroth was defeated Advent Children and other 'expanded universe' content pretty much had Shinra turn itself around and become something of a 'protector of the planet' - mostly because it was the wise and pragmatic approach from a business perspective.

So I'm hoping we'll see similar scenarios play out where Garlemald is concerned - they've got access to some very powerful technology after all and it'd be pretty cool to see it in action and used to destroy something that is a threat to both Garlemald and the Warrior of Light. We sort of saw this already when Gaius used Ultima to consume Garuda, Ifrit and Titan. Though the reasoning wasn't exactly pure.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I think it would be a pretty interesting twist if we get to Garlemald and discover a Legatus who happens to also have the echo and be working for Hydaelyn. Kind of like Iceheart in the view that what they are doing is for the greater good of Hydaelyn. The Garleans already have that view but it would interesting to have to deal with someone who is basically on our side of the playing board but who believes that Hydaelyn needs Garlemald, its power and its ingenuity to survive and that Garlemald, as flawed as it might be, is the planet's best chance.

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Honestly, I'm half-expecting that to be the twist with Zenos or Varis...

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Honestly, I'm half-expecting that to be the twist with Zenos or Varis...

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It's unlikely to be Zenos - he's been described in a recent interview as being someone that 'nobody will sympathise with'. Though given the fan following the likes of Kefka and Charibert have I imagine that might not go entirely as planned.

Varis, however, has explicitly stated something along the lines of it being his 'solemn duty to defend this very star' so presumably there's much more to him than what we've seen thus far. So far we haven't seen very much of him at all - and I still worry he'll be getting the 'Gestahl' treatment in Azyz Lla. With Zenos having been revealed to be his son he would, presumably, be next in line should anything happen to his father. We also know someone is scheming against Regula and seeking to sabotage his efforts...so perhaps it's a stretch but could Zenos be plotting against his father, end up getting both Regula and Varis killed and put himself as next in line for the throne only to bring more instability to Garlemald as a whole?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's unlikely to be Zenos - he's been described in a recent interview as being someone that 'nobody will sympathise with'. Though given the fan following the likes of Kefka and Charibert have I imagine that might not go entirely as planned.

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People don't like Kefka and Chairbert because they're sympathetic, they like them because they're so unsympathetic. They're complete bastards and make no effort to conceal that, all while reveling in their evil. They have so much fun being evil that the player has fun just watching them (and maybe achieves some catharsis by proxy). Kefka gets some sympathy in light of his Shade Impulse ending in Dissidia, but other than that he's an irredeemable nihilistic megalomaniac who just has so much fun it's hard not to like him.

It's the same phenomenon you see with the likes of BlazBlue's Yuuki Terumi and Borderlands 2's Handsome Jack. Both sadistic monsters who will kick any puppy and cross any line to achieve their goals, but they just have so much fun doing it it's hard not to be entertained by their antics and like them because they are so vehemently immoral and revel in it. Most villains these days have some kind of excuse or good intentions - a villain who does not is refreshing, in a manner of speaking.

... somehow I don't think this is going to be the case with yae Galvus. The Garleans are always very dour and serious.

New
Jobs
-samurai Class Dps
-red mage blue mage

Weapons
- Use Gun blade / Dual-Swords / Double bladed sword

Dye
Being able to Dye specific parts of a armour (Dbx2)
Shader Opptions (Destiny)

More Outfit
Garlean Bosses outfits
Other Final fantasy cross over attires
(Auron,Zack,Genes,sproth)

Dye Ability
Change colour for All WEAPONS AND All Outfits
All mounts

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I could see that happening and it reminds me of a particular plot point in FF7. Shinra were antagonists for much of the game's vast plot and despite the organisations Mako Reactors literally bleeding the planet of vital energy it was a Shinra weapon that proved powerful enough to breach the barrier blocking access to Sephiroth's lair. In short, without Shinra the main party and everybody on the planet would have been screwed. Interestingly enough once Sephiroth was defeated Advent Children and other 'expanded universe' content pretty much had Shinra turn itself around and become something of a 'protector of the planet' - mostly because it was the wise and pragmatic approach from a business perspective.

So I'm hoping we'll see similar scenarios play out where Garlemald is concerned - they've got access to some very powerful technology after all and it'd be pretty cool to see it in action and used to destroy something that is a threat to both Garlemald and the Warrior of Light. We sort of saw this already when Gaius used Ultima to consume Garuda, Ifrit and Titan. Though the reasoning wasn't exactly pure.

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I don't know if I would use Shinra as an example as most of the things they helped with only happened largely because of Shinra's actions in the first place. It is fair to say Shinra had eventually turned itself around by Advent Children but it was a long path to get there and they fell along way and were pretty humbled before they turned around. I would also argue that Ultima isn't a great example either since it was reckless use of technology not fully understood that blew up in Garlemald's face and if anything we have seen has told us is that trapping Primals isn't necessarily a good fix and can be potentially catastrophic. One of Garlemald's biggest vices is recklessly messing with tech they don't understand or underestimate the risks of in the pursuit of power. Its that error which has lead to many of Garlemald's biggest disasters, including causing the 7th calamity.

I point to Ishgard as a parallel. Ishgard is a powerful military nation with a number of strong disciplines and has much about it worth saving. But there has been and to some extent still is a lot of bad stuff too which has dictated much of Ishgardian policy. Frankly Garlemald might end up requiring a political shift on the same scale. I'm not saying defanging Garlemald as much or turning them all into hippies but making them more moderate and less focused on conquest and domination.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Most villains these days have some kind of excuse or good intentions - a villain who does not is refreshing, in a manner of speaking.

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For the most part, that's an acknowledgement that most evils in the world are done in the name of a (subjective) good. You'd be surprised what the greater good can be used to justify. Well, you specifically maybe wouldn't... Even truly evil-for-the-hell-of-it characters work because they exist in a setting where the former is still illustrated by other characters. It's all in the contrast.

That's also why races of Pure Evil™ are considered Bad Writing™ these days. Psychopaths and monsters can exist on their own, and may have people attracted to them for various reasons, but an entire society of them would collapse on itself long before it could become a major threat.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I could see that happening and it reminds me of a particular plot point in FF7. Shinra were antagonists for much of the game's vast plot and despite the organisations Mako Reactors literally bleeding the planet of vital energy it was a Shinra weapon that proved powerful enough to breach the barrier blocking access to Sephiroth's lair. In short, without Shinra the main party and everybody on the planet would have been screwed. Interestingly enough once Sephiroth was defeated Advent Children and other 'expanded universe' content pretty much had Shinra turn itself around and become something of a 'protector of the planet' - mostly because it was the wise and pragmatic approach from a business perspective.

So I'm hoping we'll see similar scenarios play out where Garlemald is concerned - they've got access to some very powerful technology after all and it'd be pretty cool to see it in action and used to destroy something that is a threat to both Garlemald and the Warrior of Light. We sort of saw this already when Gaius used Ultima to consume Garuda, Ifrit and Titan. Though the reasoning wasn't exactly pure.

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Was it not a Shinra program that produced Sephiroth, and in doing so lead to everything going wrong in the first place? I could be mistaken, it has been a very long time.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Was it not a Shinra program that produced Sephiroth, and in doing so lead to everything going wrong in the first place? I could be mistaken, it has been a very long time.

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Jenova is technically the root cause of much of setting's darker events. Shinra served as a secondary antagonist - and whilst Shinra may not be the best example I was referring more to the fact that Final Fantasy games haven't avoided having antagonists serve as as the main foil for other antagonists that turn out to be the true 'big bad'.

Which is exactly what happened with Shinra in FFVII. It happened with Gabranth in FFXII. It happened with Beatrix in FFIX. It happened with Sydney in Vagrant Story. (Not technically a Final Fantasy game but it takes place in Ivalice so, eh...)

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Was it not a Shinra program that produced Sephiroth, and in doing so lead to everything going wrong in the first place? I could be mistaken, it has been a very long time.

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Correct! Spoilers for a 20-odd year old game (and its prequel) to follow

The Jenova Project started when Shinra mistakenly tought Jenova was an Ancient and so several of their scientists individually started experimenting. Gast was the one who mistakenly labeled Jenova an Ancient, while Hojo and Hollander started injecting her cells into whatever the hell they had near. Hojo's Project S eventually resulted in Sephiroth which, including his upbringing in Shinra which left him with GIGANTING mommy and daddy issues, resulted in the maniacal supersoldier we know and love this day. Project S eventually gave rise to the SOLDIER project and the rest is, well, video game history.How much Shinra knew about Project G and Project S is up in the air although it does seem the higher ups had more than a passing knowledge about what went on in them.

In short, Shinra's much closer to a villainous Tony Stark in Age of Ultron, they're not so much saving the world but more like cleaning up their own mess.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

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Great points. Honestly it's rare for a character to be completely lacking in justifications for their actions. Kefka is horrible, yes, but he was literally driven mad as a result of a failed project. Charibert was - for the most part - a bad apple who enjoyed torturing people. Yet he likely would not have been promoted into a high position had it not been for Nidhogg's war.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

That's also why races of Pure Evil™ are considered Bad Writing™ these days. Psychopaths and monsters can exist on their own, and may have people attracted to them for various reasons, but an entire society of them would collapse on itself long before it could become a major threat.

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Ehh, I kinda missed the mark. My point was more along the lines of how a villain doesn't have to be sympathetic to be a good villain - yae Galvus is stated to be difficult to empathize with, and while that remains to be seen him being unsympathetic won't mean he's a bad villain. A lot of villains are good even if they're unsympathetic - see Terumi - though most every villain has a motivation beyond "because evil." Yes, even Terumi, hard as that is to believe.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

Was it not a Shinra program that produced Sephiroth, and in doing so lead to everything going wrong in the first place? I could be mistaken, it has been a very long time.

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That's right!

Jenova is an alien entity discovered deep underground, in the Northern Crater if I'm remembering correctly, which was mistaken for an Ancient / Cetra because of its ability to mimic other living beings. Shinra dug it up and used it to perform experiments in the hopes of finding the "Promised Land," a prophesized paradise that would be presumably rich in mako.

Sephiroth is a product of the Jenova Project S, wherin an unborn human fetus was injected with Jenova cells. Genesis and Angeal are products of the Jenova Project G, wherein a living human woman was injected with Jenova cells which would then be theoretically passed down to her children. All three learned of their origins and were driven to various states of madness: Angeal allowed himself to transform into a monster and had Zack kill him, Genesis began to degrade and unsuccessfully tried to get Sephiroth's cells to cure that degredation, and Sephiroth himself... well, went nuts and Final Fantasy VII happened.

Shinra as an organization, post-VII, isn't so much heroic as it is cleaning up its own messes and Rufus knows that keeping the planet alive is a better business decision than killing it.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Great points. Honestly it's rare for a character to be completely lacking in justifications for their actions. Kefka is horrible, yes, but he was literally driven mad as a result of a failed project. Charibert was - for the most part - a bad apple who enjoyed torturing people.

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Motives, not justifications. Very few things villains do are truly justified - after all, they wouldn't be terribly villainous if their actions were just, would they?

In Rufus's defence though, he does actually seem somewhat remorseful in Advent Children.

As for Zenos, I am kind of hoping for basically a Sociopath who has been raised to believe himself above everyone else and that Garlean superiority the natural order. Maybe throw in a bit of sadism and you have yourself a truly vile villain who takes what he wants and does what he wants because he feels its his right and has zero empathy for others.

Honestly I either expect Zenos or the Emperor to die in Stormblood. Maybe both. I feel very confident we are going to Garlemald in 5.0 and I think with the heir to the imperial throne an possibly his father getting involved in the events you have the setting for creating a power vacuum that would lead to a struggle for the throne.

http://www.siliconera.com/wordpress/.../036_thumb.jpg

From the looks he carries what could be weapons from fallen enemies as trophies, and not one at a time. They seem to be prominently arranged for display, a "hunter's wall" so to speak. (I am not certain atm but the sash he wears dose not seem to fit his armor, it could be that it is a sort of trophy aswell)

I could see him as an arrogant but powerful adversary who once defeated, snaps and begins to acquire and consolidate more power, remorseless to the atrocities he commits to attain it. Already it has been stated his rule is more harsh than Gaius and from what we know the populace was made to endure forced hard labor and as "comfort women" , and that was for those that complied... It could very well be that under his rule we may get a scene more like that of the (GoT)books interpretations of a Lannister held Harrenhal.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Ehh, I kinda missed the mark. My point was more along the lines of how a villain doesn't have to be sympathetic to be a good villain - yae Galvus is stated to be difficult to empathize with, and while that remains to be seen him being unsympathetic won't mean he's a bad villain. A lot of villains are good even if they're unsympathetic - see Terumi - though most every villain has a motivation beyond "because evil." Yes, even Terumi, hard as that is to believe.

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Did you? I thought was agreeing with you...

(But no unsympathetic villain can top Satou from Ajin. Seriously. The entire world is his video game and he's the player with an infinite number of extra lives.)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Even if they limited their brutality to those same people who had abused them, it's little more than revenge when you get down to it, and in case you weren't paying attention during 3.0 - 3.3, revenge is bad. So, if you go seeking revenge, then you're bad, mmkay?

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I agree with Belhi: I didn't see the message of 3.0 - 3.3 being this at all. It didn't seem to be saying that vengeance is bad, but rather how you choose to pursue your vengeance determines whether you're bad or not. We were presented with at least two characters utterly devoted to vengeance: Nidhogg and Estinien. Estinien was presented as a very sympathetic character, and Nidhogg as a villain.

Nidhogg wasn't a villain because he wanted vengeance - he was a villain because he became a complete monster in pursuit of that vengeance. Nidhogg decided to torture an entire nation of people for centuries due to the actions of a few. Why? Because after succeeding in his vengeance on those few, he decided that he was still angry and so found someone else to pick on. This is what made him a monster, and why he needed to be put down.

Estinien, on the other hand, while just as obsessed with revenge, reserved that rancor solely for the individual responsible, Nidhogg himself. Once Nidhogg was dead his revenge was over; he didn't try to find some new target for his rage. In fact, he had to deal with the fact that he'd succeeded in his life's goal, and had never really planned what to do beyond that. Estinien was very vengeance-motivated, to be sure, but he was never really portrayed as bad.

Honestly, I didn't feel like Heavensward even HAD an underlying message. It was merely a story about a very unfortunate situation, in which many people reacted in unfortunate ways to unfortunate circumstances. The fault for all this lay with so many people both living and dead that pointing fingers was a fruitless endeavor, and the thing that nearly everyone wanted more than anything else was for it all just to end, one way or another. That was what the WoL accomplished, finally introducing change in a place that had been static for a very, very long time.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Honestly, I didn't feel like Heavensward even HAD an underlying message. It was merely a story about a very unfortunate situation, in which many people reacted in unfortunate ways to unfortunate circumstances. The fault for all this lay with so many people both living and dead that pointing fingers was a fruitless endeavor, and the thing that nearly everyone wanted more than anything else was for it all just to end, one way or another. That was what the WoL accomplished, finally introducing change in a place that had been static for a very, very long time.

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Heavensward seems to have themes of duality, understanding the past, reconciliation, and removing extremes.

Duality: Ishgard and Dravania, Hraesvelgr and Shiva, Estinien and Nidhogg, Hydaelyn and Zodiark, the Light and Dark sects of the Fists of Rhalgr, Lowborn and Highborn

Understand the Past: The awful truth about the Dragonsong War, Scions learning the Ascians motivations, meeting Tiamat, the source of the Tonberry plague in SCH quests, the entire Shadow of Mhach raids, Travanchet giving the horn to Mide

Reconciliation: Peace talks with dragons, Hraesvelgr regaining trust in mortals, Ishgard rejoining the Eorzean Alliance, Widargelt's goal in the Monk job quests, Rostnsthal trying to atone for his past actions, Urianger's gambit in 3.4, Lolorito's confession to Raubahn

EXTREMES: Nidhogg's vengeance, God-King Thordan and the Knights of the Round, Emperor Varis's policies, Quickthinx Allthoughts, the Warring Triad, the fate of the Thirteenth World, the Flood of Light afflicting the First World, Ilberd

While these themes also existed in 1.0 and 2.0 to an extent, they are most prominently displayed here.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Did you? I thought was agreeing with you...

(But no unsympathetic villain can top Satou from Ajin. Seriously. The entire world is his video game and he's the player with an infinite number of extra lives.)

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I dunno, man.

(Terumi is probably worse. On top of not caring one lick about anything but his own goals, he literally sustains his existence by having people hate and fear him - and delights in making them do so by physically and mentally torturing them. As a ghost in his natural state, he is literally unkillable until magic shenanigans happen. Having lived through thousands if not millions of years of looped time and retained knowledge from every single one, he knows exactly how to push the cast's buttons for maximum sadism points. That sadism also carries over to his fighting style, which is based around rapid, multiple hits that deal light damage and includes vicious moves like stomping on downed enemies and dunking them into the floor. That said his ultimate goal, freedom, is sympathetic - unfortunately to him that means "kill God, destroy the world and recreate it in my own image.")

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I agree with Belhi: I didn't see the message of 3.0 - 3.3 being this at all. It didn't seem to be saying that vengeance is bad, but rather how you choose to pursue your vengeance determines whether you're bad or not. We were presented with at least two characters utterly devoted to vengeance: Nidhogg and Estinien. Estinien was presented as a very sympathetic character, and Nidhogg as a villain.

...

Honestly, I didn't feel like Heavensward even HAD an underlying message.

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The main theme of Heavensward was the cycle of revenge.

The Dragonsong War was kicked off and perpetuated by Nidhogg's vengeance. In retaliation for Ratatoskr's death he declared endless war on Ishgard, sadistically letting them live so they could rebuild and nearly be destroyed time and again, forever. In doing so he caused the deaths of countless Ishgardians and Dravanians alike, further entrenching their mutual hatred of each other and leading to a never-ending spiral of revenge. It was only by learning the whole truth that we were able to get Hraesvelgr to believe once more, and in doing so overcame the hatred (manifested as apathy instead of Nidhogg's wrath) that had consumed him as well - allowing us to triumph over Nidhogg's revenge in the very end. We broke the cycle.

Learning the whole truth is also an important theme, as most of Ishgard and the Heretics were running on half-baked ideals constructed from partial truths or outright lies.

Estinien isn't portrayed as bad for seeking vengeance (which I'm personally chalking up to values dissonance), but his lack of hesitation to threaten the dragons during our trip is. He reserves his hatred for Nidhogg, but will not hesitate to strike down or at least threaten any dragon that so much as looks at him the wrong way. Even after achieving his vengeance Estinien states that it feels empty - he is not fulfilled until after we have defeated King Thordan, ending both progenitors of the war in a sense and securing peace for Ishgard. It is only then that he feels a sense of comfort and relief. (How dramatically ironic.)

On the topic of main theme of Heavensward, i always felt it was simply that one should not be held accountable for sins of the father. While i can not speak for the other two jobs introduced, i feel the Dark Knight post 60 quest line touched upon this sentiment to an extent.

I would argue that one main difference between Estinien and Nidhogg's vengeance is how all consuming it was and how it was directed. In Estinien's case though he had fallen under the influence of his rancor in the DRG questline, he still is notable that A) his primary focus of his revenge is the individual responsible and B) he is open to restraint for the sake of his duty. He didn't believe peace was a likely outcome but he still allowed the attempt. He didn't take any action to try and undermine our effort. Estinien's vengeance was a defining and controlling aspect of who he was but it wasn't all he was. Nidhogg on the other hand was so completely consumed by his rage and thirst for vengeance there really wasn't much else left. This was compounded by the fact that the actual people behind the crime were all long dead. Nidhogg was simply taking out his rage on whatever target fit as an outlet. This shows particularly when he and his brood attack other dragons and their servants such as in the FATEs in the Churning Mists.

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Originally Posted by Alacran

On the topic of main theme of Heavensward, i always felt it was simply that one should not be held accountable for sins of the father. While i can not speak for the other two jobs introduced, i feel the Dark Knight post 60 quest line touched upon this sentiment to an extent.

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That is true, but one could argue that because modern Ishgardians were held accountable for the sins of their forebears, they committed sins themselves (killing dragons). Granted I don't blame them for doing so when it's life and death (kind of hard to blame people for fighting for their right to live even if they know it's the morally wrong choice after inFAMOUS 2), but even so - Ishgardians killing Dravanians leads to Dravanians killing Ishgardians leading to Ishgardians killing Dravanians. And so the cycle would have spun on forever.

Not that Nidhogg really cared who or how many died.

Only by rooting out and eliminating the propagators and perpetuators of the cycle - Nidhogg and King Thordan - were we able to end it.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I would argue that one main difference between Estinien and Nidhogg's vengeance is how all consuming it was and how it was directed.

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While Estinien is more moderate in his stance, the ultimate fact of the matter is that in getting him to succumb to vengeance Nidhogg had already won. Nidhogg's goal was to get Ishgard to loathe and hate him so he would be "justified" in killing even modern Ishgardians who had nothing to do with King Thordan's sin (because they "hadn't learned" from it).

After learning the truth and killing Nidhogg, Estinien lets go of his hate and rage (stating his vengeance feels empty). Nidhogg, on the other hand, persists after his death solely through those same emotions.

While Estinien is not as far gone as Nidhogg, the man himself notes there are strong similarities between them (endless grief giving way to unrelenting waves of rancor, or something to that effect). And while Estinien is not as obsessed with vengeance as Nidhogg, he is far from personable and only softens up after achieving his empty vengeance.

EDIT
The key difference between Estinien and Nidhogg is that, while both are driven by vengeance, Estinien also places the safety of Ishgard high on his list of priorities - higher than vengeance, if his willingness to at least try and reach a peaceful resolution to the war is any indication. Nidhogg, on the other hand, fell so far that absolutely nothing is more important to him than getting revenge on Ishgard - he will cross any line and do anything for it. It's also important to remember that Estinien's hatred is limited an individual (though he doesn't hesitate to threaten any and every dragon that looks at him sideways), while Nidhogg's extends to Ishgard as a nation, not any individual.

Estinien may have given up his vengeance if it meant safety for kin and country; Nidhogg actually attacks his own kin for getting in the way of his revenge. The difference between the two, while subtle, is clear as night and day.

Speaking of Estinien...I wonder if we will see him again in 3.5 or whether it'll be a while until we cross paths with him once more?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Speaking of Estinien...I wonder if we will see him again in 3.5 or whether it'll be a while until we cross paths with him once more?

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It'll probably be in Stormblood proper, not 3.5. 3.5 has to much to setup, and the girl from the trailer is gonna need a lionshare of it. I could however see him showing up in 3.5/2.

I'm guessing 4.X for Estinien. At least Yoshida has acknowledged the worry that he'd drop off the face of the earth and never be mentioned again, as has become the expectation for most (non-1.0-throwback) characters after their story arc.

Well... let's get the 3.5 speculation a going again eh?

NEW IMAGES!!!!!!
http://www.4gamer.net/games/278/G027...t.html?num=021

http://i.imgur.com/U5CsOwS.jpg
That hair... she seems like another Moenbryda? PLEASE DON'T JUST KILL HER OFF SE! I wanna know more :3 (I also want that hair lol)

http://i.imgur.com/ZDNjbuo.jpg
Well this raises some flags... I wonder why they're all together (even Ishgard) maybe time to storm Ala Mihgo? about the Empire? Celebrating Kan-E-Senna's Bday? Who knows?! lol
Though I'd haveta guess one of the first two lol.

http://i.imgur.com/p4qsikK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/WqkdK05.jpg
Hmmm... I hope this isn't a bad thing as to why he has that out and looks like in the middle of a confrontation too >.<

http://i.imgur.com/qEdKEM4.jpg
Well... that just opens up a wormhole and possibilities! Either DRK or.. generic great sword user :3

http://i.imgur.com/pX4UR6m.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/IeF8Kf5.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/s2k5bDk.jpg
I know it's just gonna be a dungeon... but this place looks SOOOO COOL! I'm so excited!

http://i.imgur.com/fAiftnm.jpg
Retro steampunk Magitek?! WHAT IS THIS SORCERY!!!!!!!!

http://i.imgur.com/ak7Z4B6.jpg
FFXIII Ochu... wha? lol This is neat.

http://i.imgur.com/XoCQIV3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZgBJRwq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/azja3ag.jpg
Looks nice, but still wanted my Snowcloak HM instead ; ;

http://i.imgur.com/OEV6nk9.jpg
Looks like a bad Bioshock/Silent Hill crossover. Not sure how I feel about this set of gear...

http://i.imgur.com/zPw5kbe.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZFadrI9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/UFt4etu.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/6GlD3Wl.jpg
Zurvan intrigues me, I'm really excited to see his story, more about him as a whole, and the whole over arching story of the Warring Triad!

Since they already have Ochu's in the game from FFXI I wonder what they're going to call the model ripped XIII one? Will they acknowledge it as an Ochu? Guess I'll have to find out.

"Yda"'s neck is obscured in every shot... ON PURPOSE!?

Krile returning to the MSQ is nice, as is the official enstatement of her and Alisaie as Scions.

No idea about that Miqo'te. Perhaps someone recently escaped from Ala Mhigo? Someone with a fresh perspective of Zenos' cruelty would probably do much to spur us into Gyr Abania.

Meeting of the city-state leaders (sans Nanamo but plus Yugiri!) I have to imagine it's about storming Baelsar's Wall through the East Shroud. Not sure why Lucia would be in attendance--and why Yugiri would be; I guess they would both know about Garlemald a little better than others.

Yda and Papalymo at Baelsar's Wall and Papalymo cradling Tupsimati so early...very ominous. I wonder if the Griffin will be a boss in Baelsar's Wall or perhaps a MSQ instance? Definitely looks like a battle stance, though he's holding that sword weird. Have to stop him from rushing into Gyr Abania too brazenly? Hmmm

Magitek Empuse are cute, I hope they somehow reference that they're new magitek based on findings from Azys Lla, lol.

The new Reaper is weird, but looks like it has arms so probably some kind of prototype for a new model.

Freakin' magma crabs.

Considering how difficult breathing would be in the bowels of a volcano and amongst ceruleum fuels, I kind of like the gasmask angle, lol

Interesting we appear to fight Zurvan while he's contained. I wonder if him "breaking free" in the 3rd shot is a death CS or the return of mid-battle CS phase transitions.

Where is our boy Unukalhai and Regula in the teasers though! I am very excited to see how this shakes out

(and any Proto-Ultima tomfoolery they throw at us)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rocl

The new Reaper is weird, but looks like it has arms so probably some kind of prototype for a new model.

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The reaper model I think is based off Final Fantasy VI's battle sprite
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/...20140714222716
if anything it look like a prototype compared to the amano based Magitek Armor
edit: Just realized the dude piloting is also much like the guy in the sprite.

There's a reference to 'smoke rising' from Baelsar's Wall in the dungeon teaser so that may confirm my earlier suspicions that we won't assault it head on but will sneak in during whatever chaos the Ala Mhigan Resistance brings forth.

Yugiri is also in the meeting at the Lotus Stand. One can only guess that whatever's going on, it's something big if all four GC leaders, their aides, Yugiri, and you are going to be present.

Ilberd The Griffin's stance looks unique. Until he busts out DRK moves, I'm not sure he is strictly one class or another (or at least a given class that's available to us).

As for Zurvan, I'm guessing he'll be bound until after he uses his super.

I don't think Griffin will be a DRK - I think he's just going to be a guy who happens to use a two handed sword...with a few neat tricks of his own. Much like Regula. I can't recall but did Ilberd fight with a two handed sword? That might be another clue that it is him if it is him.

Going back to the 'smoke rising' at Baelsar's Wall perhaps that has to do with the Amaal'ja - some sort of pact between them and the Ala Mhigan Resistance was hinted at and I could see it being a plot point referenced again moving forward.

If memory serves, Ilberd fought like a GLA, though whether or not he had a shield escapes me.

Either way... it's been a while since Halatali, and as a gladiator / sellsword Ilberd is more than likely trained in a variety of arms. I wouldn't count the Griffin's apparent choice of weapon as a clue one way or another.

Hate to double post, but I'm going to wager that the smoke rising from the Wall is because the Masks have besieged it somehow. We're just there to clean up the mess and at least try and mitigate the consequences of their actions.

"A power befitting their pride, their righteousness," after all...

It's been implied that at least some of the bodies of water around Eorzea will be explorable via swimming as of 4.0 - mostly for the sake of general enjoyment but also for quests and gathering.

Gathering equals the acquisition of items, which in turn means item descriptions. I guess it's pretty minor in the grand scheme of things but I can see some of those descriptions shedding light on some pretty intriguing stuff. Perhaps we will be able to swim around the area surrounding the Wanderer's Palace and gather items that sheds further light on Nym?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's been implied that at least some of the bodies of water around Eorzea will be explorable via swimming as of 4.0 - mostly for the sake of general enjoyment but also for quests and gathering.

Gathering equals the acquisition of items, which in turn means item descriptions. I guess it's pretty minor in the grand scheme of things but I can see some of those descriptions shedding light on some pretty intriguing stuff. Perhaps we will be able to swim around the area surrounding the Wanderer's Palace and gather items that sheds further light on Nym?

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That would be interesting.

Yoshi has said we have gotten about 50% of the reveals for the Expac so there is probably more to come. It would be cool if we got some kind of Salvager gathering class, collecting old valuables from ruins, broken wreckage and such.

In regards to Azys Lla, since we're going to defeat the last of the Warring Triad, what's going to happen to the entire facility? If memory serves me right, the imprisoned eikon trio were the main source of power for Azys Lla, correct? Once we defeat Zurvan doesn't that mean Ayzs Lla will cease to function any longer and potentially fall out of the sky? Gameplay-wise it'll stay up there for sure, but lore-wise what will happen?