Class Reform info.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

You know what's another idea? They said that spells can have combos too... so casting water a certain way may inflict the effect of Drown.

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This would solve most the potential issue I am seeing about this 15 Actions @ lvl 50 issue I see rearing it's ugly head.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I think I see your your coming from. The only thing I have to say is what the development team wrote.



They don't say 15 "action slots" and 11 "trait slots". The say 15 actions and 11 traits.

The chart columns are not titles "Action Slots" or "Trait Slots" they are called "Action" and Traits".

I think you may be assuming they mean slots ... but because they don't actually say "slots" I cannot make that assumption with you. Sorry.

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Agreed, if they had said "Action Slot" and "Trait Slot" on the table, it would be totally clear what they mean, and i would have a lower post count lol

But considering the alternative possibility, this one is the only one that makes sense to me lol

Now would be a great time for a dev to drop by and clarify......

Since you can't equip traits from other classes it's very likely that the trait slots will be going, you won't be able to unequip traits.

Hope they do away with fleet of foot and just increase battle movement...

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Originally Posted by AshToreth

Agreed, if they had said "Action Slot" and "Trait Slot" on the table, it would be totally clear what they mean, and i would have a lower post count lol

But considering the alternative possibility, this one is the only one that makes sense to me lol

Now would be a great time for a dev to drop by and clarify......

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Well, the alternate possibility is what I described before for CNJ. 15 actions is enough room for curing, raising, basic buffing, and basic elemental spells. 11 traits is more than enough for fastcasting, soughspeaking, mind-over-bodying, or whatever. Plus you'll have 10 additional actions that you can draw from other classes.

So a Level 50 character will have 25 actions (15 native, 10 cross-class) and 11 traits. 36 skills in total. And that's not including what he'll get from any Job he has. It really doesn't seem that severe to me. Just my opinion, though.

I bet that Job's action arsenal is not as clear as class=job(+ additional actions). Remember, classes are still designed to be versatile and their action set-up should reflect that. Job will be more limited so it would be no wonder if some of the classes skills it originates from are dropped when you switch.

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Originally Posted by NarikoStar

Sorry, can you not see the table? It's hard to copy/paste to forums due to the table... I've screenshoted the first few- As NamudNevets stated though the exact spells / traits we learn at that level we wont see till part 2 of this post.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n...1at43540AM.png

Edit:

If I had to guess....

R1 = Spirit Dart
R2 = Elemental spells (Fire, Wind, Water, Earth, Blizzard, Thunder) Even though its multiple- they could change them to share the same cast timer as Ancient magic does- just a thought

R4= cure

^-- These are only based off of current optimal spells, as for traits, the convert attributes for CNJ are the first things you get with an optimal of rank 20... so I'm not quite sure what the rank 8 trait will be.

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That's assuming elemental spells aren't being given to THM. *throws a cat in a bag of mice*

CNJ could be getting scrifice :O (better yet regen)

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Well, the alternate possibility is what I described before for CNJ. 15 actions is enough room for curing, raising, basic buffing, and basic elemental spells. 11 traits is more than enough for fastcasting, soughspeaking, mind-over-bodying, or whatever. Plus you'll have 10 additional actions that you can draw from other classes.

So a Level 50 character will have 25 actions (15 native, 10 cross-class) and 11 traits. 36 skills in total. And that's not including what he'll get from any Job he has. It really doesn't seem that severe to me. Just my opinion, though.

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The table is ambiguous at best, but my understanding of the alternative was that at level 50, there will be 15 total action slots, of which 10 can be equipped with spells/abilities from other classes. Which would be a pretty raw deal lol

So it really leaves a lot down to personal interpretation, but i see how your understanding of it could work reasonably well :)

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Originally Posted by Jinko

That's assuming elemental spells aren't being given to THM. *throws a cat in a bag of mice*

CNJ could be getting scrifice :O (better yet regen)

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I thought about that too~ I wouldn't mind that one bit. But I'm sure you would have the whole "I leveled CNJ for BLM" bandwagon QQing on your ass lol.

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Originally Posted by AshToreth

The table is ambiguous at best, but my understanding of the alternative was that at level 50, there will be 15 total action slots, of which 10 can be equipped with spells/abilities from other classes. Which would be a pretty raw deal lol

So it really leaves a lot down to personal interpretation, but i see how your understanding of it could work reasonably well :)

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Yeah but this...

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•Upon learning an action for your current class, that action will automatically be set to the action bar and cannot be voluntarily removed. It will be possible, however, to move the action to another slot.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Yeah but this...

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I offered an alternative understanding of that in an earlier post...

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Originally Posted by AshToreth

My understanding of that is just that, as we learn an extra action slot, it will be automatically assigned.
Makes perfect sense to me. Why would anyone not want to have all available action slots open to them and assigned automatically for use, as and when you learn them.

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Originally Posted by Holy_Dragoon

This would solve most the potential issue I am seeing about this 15 Actions @ lvl 50 issue I see rearing it's ugly head.

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its 15 actions from the class + up to an additional 10 from other classes and also the abilites that will become present when using a job so its more like 25-30 actions to be set at 50 most likley so a full 3 actions bars worth of stuff not just 15

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Originally Posted by AshToreth

I offered an alternative understanding of that in an earlier post...

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I get confused a lot... can you tell? :< I just wish they would tell me that abilities are not actions... I'm still stressing out about that.

i dont like traits being class specific, everything else sounds good

So far I feel 50-50 about these class reforms. I'm not sure how MP cost will be affected for spells or anything, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see. -_- I hope they leave tiered healing spells.. they can really come in handy.
I kinda liked being able to use other classes' abilities and customize my character at will.. but again, I think it's better to wait and see how it's all gonna work when the patch comes.

I wonder how you will heal yourself at lower levels (i.e., 1-10). Curious to see when Second Wind and the magic-based cures will be available, particularly to melee classes.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

That's what they wrote.



That 26 skills in total over 50 levels. Doesn't sound that bad to me.

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Guy guys guys are you reading what they said? really? "15 action and 11 traits from lvling up" so yes you will get 15 skills only by lvling up to 50 BUT it also says you can use 10 from other classes and "JOB related Skills via quests will be treated separetely" so that means ..... take GLD for instance.. you'll have 15 skills as gld but once you do pld quest @30 and the quests for the skills you will have more.. now how many more ? we have no clue till 1.21.. so 15+X(x=jobskills)+other class skills= plenty of damn skills to use.... I dont know about you all but I dont nearly put all my skills for pgl or thm on my bar. mainly cause theres certain skills from otehr classes that I "NEED" now I dont about you all but im loving the fact that i'll be able to use ALL of my class/job skills :D if i see fit......

also im betting alot of these "skills that people are saying wont have room for" will be givin to jobs like hopefully sentinal, AM and so on... with that being said. we already had the whole QQ about "I lvled conj to be blm" but yea i wouldnt be surprised if thm got the elemental spells actually I'd be shocked ifthey didnt.. since a BLM should have AM and yea its elemental.... maybe conj will get banish, dia so on.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

i dont like traits being class specific, everything else sounds good

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I think that might be the only thing i am a little salty over my self. The way the change was framed make sense, still i think i'm peeved at the perceived loss of a luxury item. I am personally going to save and torch and pitch fork action for when they post the new action lists.

The way there going to limit cross classing with jobs in .21 just became very apparent. at 50. 5 cross class action slots probably limited to the sub class required to flag, 5 actions coming from the job quests.

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Originally Posted by Griss

I think that might be the only thing i am a little salty over my self. The way the change was framed make sense, still i think i'm peeved at the perceived loss of a luxury item. I am personally going to save and torch and pitch fork action for when they post the new action lists.

The way there going to limit cross classing with jobs in .21 just became very apparent. at 50. 5 cross class action slots probably limited to the sub class required to flag, 5 actions coming from the job quests.

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This is a good thing. By limiting it it means the people who where bitching about having to rank 5 classes to get an invite to the ifrit battle will stop. Each class can stand on its own if they do it right. This is better for the game. much better.

Hi All,

Overall, excellent news and a step in the direction for adding Class Uniqueness. :)

While I will miss adding various other Class Traits to my own, I think that was one of the big reasons why there was a lack of class identity: You could just equip whatever Trait / Spell / Weaponskill and pick and choose from all the classes and use most of them (only recently did they start adding more restrictions on certain abilities like Bloodletter or Curaga).

Even under the new system, you'll be able to equip up to 10 Cross-Class Abilities (so we still get some freedom), but the Traits will be specific for each Class / Job, which should allow some Class-exclusivity and give them some character.

I'm not sure how well the Scaling System will work (so that there's just 1 Ability and it scales with more potency and costs as you rank up): I like the flexibility of using a Cure II vs. a Cure III depending on how long I want to cast for and how much MP I want to spend.

But for stuff like Provoke I vs. Provoke II, of course there's no reason to keep / slot / use Provoke I after you earn II.

Lastly, I LOVE the idea of Individual Combos (and hopefully some creative expansion of those ideas for 1.20+ for Parties and the new Skillchain (Renkei) / Battle Regimen Combo System 2.0. :)

Positioning helps and it adds a layer of strategy and gameplay where we used to just spam attacks with little-to-no-care for anything except spamming.

I can't wait for 1.20 now! :)

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Originally Posted by Hikozaemon

its 15 actions from the class + up to an additional 10 from other classes and also the abilites that will become present when using a job so its more like 25-30 actions to be set at 50 most likley so a full 3 actions bars worth of stuff not just 15

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but what 15 actions will we get. first of all that means we will lose alot. second of all they said we were getting new actions too which means they are getting rid of even more. I know which ones id keep but well see.

I'd rather we got more diversity in healing magic rather than tiered spells anyways if they are going that way.

Stuff like:
Short cast, long cooldown, small/medium heals. (emergency heals)
Long cast, high cost, large heals. (Powerful but limited cure bombs)
Low cost, long cast, medium heals (efficient, but pre-meditated healing)
HoT's (supplementary healing)
etc. etc.

Cure 1/2/3 do this to an extent, but there could be more flexibility in healing strategy and tactics if they diversified the system rather than relying on tiered spells only.

I'm thinking they might have taken out Drown/Rasp/etc on CNJ and just made the elemental nukes work like the ancient spells in 11, where one debuffs towards another. That or they are reserved for Black mage or just put somewhere else. They could also remove the -na spells and just give us Esuna but I don't know how that would be balance-wise.

I'm really digging the updates and it will be great not having to pick and choose between which of my spells to set. Scaled spells by level is perfect to me since there is really no need for multiple tiers of spells as long as they grow with you.

Wow.

This is awesome. I'm amazed / glad they're willing to backpedal this far from the game and Armoury system's initial premise. It's a little bit shocking, even if you're completely in support of the game's direction, but it's awesome. The old system just wasn't going to work, no matter how much ability massaging they did.

so basically 15 actions and 10 cross class actions =25 which is about what i use now so im good with that as long as they implement it right....

i imagine this is all to make way for the abundance of new actions well get as job actions in 1.21

ill rage quit if glad keeps onion cut though,lol

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Originally Posted by DNO

This is a good thing. By limiting it it means the people who where bitching about having to rank 5 classes to get an invite to the ifrit battle will stop. Each class can stand on its own if they do it right. This is better for the game. much better.

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Yea it definitely should help with that.

Personally i have held the idea that right now each class can stand on its own in its given roll be it in a bare bones manor to be very true. the pain point was the inability for a lot of people to differentiate need from want.

In that respect i very much like the new cross classing structure, hell i like it in general. you get your 15 core actions then have ten slots to augment that how you please. Like i said the only thing i'm in the slightest bit salty about is the perceived loss of luxury items such as Fleet of foot and Prime conditioning on all the classes i goof around with.

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Originally Posted by Griss

Yea it definitely should help with that.

Personally i have held the idea that right now each class can stand on its own in its given roll be it in a bare bones manor to be very true. the pain point was the inability for a lot of people to differentiate need from want.

In that respect i very much like the new cross classing structure, hell i like it in general. you get your 15 core actions then have ten slots to augment that how you please. Like i said the only thing i'm in the slightest bit salty about is the perceived loss of luxury items such as Fleet of foot and Prime conditioning on all the classes i goof around with.

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i agree mostly, but peoples wants come from a certain amount of imbalance, glad prob needing the most help from other classes in my opinion.

Maybe it's nostalgia speaking but tier spells have a certain charm to themselves. And being able/of rank to cast them in other FF games was a mark of accomplishment. A little sad to see them go, but whatever SE has envisioned/planned for the coming class changes just CANNOT. COME. SOONER.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Awwww /comfort @Arkine

What disturbs me even more is that this applies to DoH/DoL. Say goodbye to using Sweat of Brow on all your gathering classes, or Maker's Muse on all your Crafting classes. That's right. Preserve will only be on Alchemists from now on… Boooooo….

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Sweat of Brow Barely Activated anyways :p It doesn't bother me that its going :P

And in a sense we are getting all the tiers... its just probably like @ 24 you get Tier II, though you don't "Physically" see it as as Tier II and MP will adjust Accordingly.. Im sure there will be other healing type spells so its not just a "Cure III bomb fest"... lol

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

i absolutely apologize, it was jerkish and out of nowhere.
this is the first time ive been bitter about anything the team has done so im a bit jumpy at anyone who supports me no longer having large fancy spell effects when im a large fancy Nuker/the new system.

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Hi Dreadnought and All,

I agree. At first I was worried that we might have only 1 spell *effect* that we're stuck with from Rank 1 to 50, but I hold out hope that the Spell FX (which have been complained about since month 1 of this game and even during open beta) will scale and alter and improve as we level up.

Some thoughts on the Mage situation with the limited slots that I hold out hope for:

• Spell FX will scale as we level up, so a Level 50 Fire will look better, bigger, flashier than a Level 1 Fire spell.

• Considering the amazing visual improvements we've seen under Yoshida-san for stuff like the new Chaos Thrust and Rage of Halone and Storm's Path, I have faith that the Animation and Visual Effects Teams will deliver some nice reforms for Mages. :)

• 15 Actions seems a bit limiting, *but* IMHO, it's a good thing to allow the Battle Team to move various Spells over to the Job. So all Ancient Magic could move over to Black Mage instead.
  • Couple this with the fact that they've confirmed we'll be earning *Job* Abilities (Spells, Weaponskills etc.) via Quests, and we could actually get the restoration of proper gravitas and presentation and buildup for learning Ancient Magic, with the proper respect they should've been given by the original FF XIV Team (but failed at).
    
    Instead of dumping ALL Ancient Magic spells to us in *1* level (the current way), with no buildup / presentation or care, now we could possibly be earning *each* Ancient Magic Spell via a Job Quest... like traveling to a far off Ancient Temple to defeat an Demon / NM to learn the power of Tornado! :)
    
    *That* is the type of buildup that felt missing playing a Mage in XIV so far.
  • Of course the key to this is also having an Awesome Graphical Revision and Damage Revision to Ancient Magic (and scaled up Elemental Nukes) like Dreadnought is asking for. The original Ancient Magic VFX were non-existent and even the current VFX are terrible. But I think we'll get some great revisions before 2.0. :)

So this initial, high-level description may seem a bit underwhelming from a mage's point-of-view (like Dread is feeling), but I'll try and remain optimistic that Yoshida-san will deliver the proper Visual and Damage Reforms necessary to finally make playing a Nuking Mage something really fun. :)

We'll find out soon with 1.20, 1.21.

Thanks~

I wonder if the 15 actions include the 10 cross class cap or if that is in addition to the 15. My guess would be it is in addition, but you never know.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

You know what's another idea? They said that spells can have combos too... so casting water a certain way may inflict the effect of Drown.

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This sounds like a great idea. :) This could be a way to introduce some unique effects as well (that were previously spells).

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Originally Posted by Wynn

I wonder if the 15 actions include the 10 cross class cap or if that is in addition to the 15. My guess would be it is in addition, but you never know.

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The wording indicates each class will learn fifteen native actions. I will say it is not counting the cross class actions. adding to that, the chart is definitely counting fifteen actions plus eleven traits plus ten cross class actions.

One thing that I want to add, as I've read some responses in the thread. I believe Classes will not have access to Job Abilities at all. Jobs might have access to class abilities.

this is a pretty big gamble for me.

1.20 will essentially decide whether i stick with ffxiv or play swtor.
then 1.21/1.22 will decide whether i stick with ffxiv or go with the secret world.

all i have to say is i am very excited to see the changes being made and i have no doubt 2.0 will bring
ffxiv into what my wife and i will want to play. however now that it's going to a subscription model,
these coming changes need to make it worthwhile for us to pay and play over other mmo's!

with that said, i think if Cure gets combined with the other cure spells there will need to be some serious changes made
to enmity generation or the lack there-of for that matter on healing.

It's 15 native actions, Wynn. The level up chart shows you learning 15 from 10-50

15 native actions + 10 actions from other classes = 25/30 slots taken up. Wonder if we're also getting the ability to set items/macros to help fill the other 5 slots.

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Originally Posted by Cole

with that said, i think if Cure gets combined with the other cure spells there will need to be some serious changes made to enmity generation or the lack there-of for that matter on healing.

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That is a real concern, not only with Cure but with all the elemental spells that will lose their tiers. Tiers allowed a certain level of control over how much damage you cured or dealt, and thus how much enmity you gained.

What I'm afraid of is that the classes which have these spells native being too effective ... and as a result gain large amounts of enmity in party. This would result in characters who cross-class these spells being more in demand in parties because their nerfed casting would create less enmity.

This is something for the Development Team to be careful of.

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All traits will be made class-exclusive.
Adjustments will be made so that certain actions will only unleash their full potential when paired with traits belonging to the same class.

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This is the only part I don't really like, but it's not a big IMO. I would have preferred this to remain customizable.

The Actions overhaul is only a more level restricted way to do the same thing as the current system, which is fine by me. It simply lessens the advantages of lower level Classes after you obtained a level 50. In the end, you get the same set up as before.

I hope the Specific Ability changes are as promising as this.

Thinking about it some more, the combo system could potentially open up some nice customization options and would really be nice to keep classes viable vs. jobs. Right now from what I can see, the fact that the main class will get all its skills natively means it will have all its combo options open. If you want to add another function to your class, let's say add healing abilities to your melee class, you could simply put Cure on there but adding whatever actions that combo with cure would allow you to boost potency/reduce enmity or whatever they have planned, allowing you to either main or co-heal in a small party by focusing more on specific combos. You have the option of having a wide variety of non-combo'd actions to increase your versatility, as well.

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Originally Posted by Antanias

15 native actions + 10 actions from other classes = 25/30 slots taken up. Wonder if we're also getting the ability to set items/macros to help fill the other 5 slots.

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That's where the Job-specific actions will come in. The letter said a new Job quest every 5 levels after 30.

30: Unlock job > 35: Ability > 40 Ability > 45 Ability > 50 Ability. That counts for 4/5. The extra one comes at 55 since they're raising the cap at the same time they're bringing in jobs. No idea how they're going to work Job-specific armor in there, if at all. Maybe a piece of armor with a new ability as well.

Edit: And I totally called the removal of AP last week :D

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

That's where the Job-specific actions will come in. The letter said a new Job quest every 5 levels after 30.

30: Unlock job > 35: Ability > 40 Ability > 45 Ability > 50 Ability. That counts for 4/5. The extra one comes at 55 since they're raising the cap at the same time they're bringing in jobs. No idea how they're going to work Job-specific armor in there, if at all. Maybe a piece of armor with a new ability as well.

Edit: And I totally called the removal of AP last week :D

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They never said they were raising the cap on 1.21 ( jobs) they said " if at any time" it will be after 1.21" but they have alot to look into before making the Level cap Raise Call.