DRK tanking. A little bit of pain.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If you wonder why these suggestions keep popping up, you need look no further than how you and others tend to answer them—with defensive classism for your veteran set of players (which is right and fine; you are the people actually invested in this job), rather than with the math that might show where the balance really lies and why these conflicts exist, likely even to the DRK's benefit in terms of interesting gameplay and situational/burst capabilities.

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Pardon me if I sound nasty but I find it rather funny that majority of these "veterans" are not even touching the hardest raid content and they are rambling about the balances between tanks.

Adjustments to the balances to the jobs should be made with a huge amount of data to support the ideas you are bringing whether it is raw DPS, effectiveness, who is pulling first, skill cap of players, relations between tanks to healers and dps. The comparisons between tanks in different situations need to be made. It just doesn't sound convincing if you don't provide real stats and experience to back the arguments you make. In this sense SE has to thank the raiders for providing the stats they need for necessary adjustments to the jobs and also the future contents.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

Pardon me if I sound nasty but I find it rather funny that majority of these "veterans" are not even touching the hardest raid content and they are rambling about the balances between tanks.

Adjustments to the balances to the jobs should be made with a huge amount of data to support the ideas you are bringing whether it is raw DPS, effectiveness, who is pulling first, skill cap of players, relations between tanks to healers and dps. The comparisons between tanks in different situations need to be made. It just doesn't sound convincing if you don't provide real stats and experience to back the arguments you make. In this sense SE has to thank the raiders for providing the stats they need for necessary adjustments to the jobs and also the future contents.

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Yeah, I'm not going to go into the whole "raider vs casual" thing- theres always going to be that divide, and sometimes "skill" isn't what makes that divide. Though there is the point of stats. someone needs to be clearing that content so someone knows what's capable or what is being used in that content. But I cant say I subscribe to raiding being the end-all be all of class balance. SE is a PvE heavy game, yes, but I don't get the vibe that SE is pumping out raid-only content for raid-only players. So I'm sure endgame A8S raiding isnt the sole factor into what goes into class balance.

there's also a factor of enjoyment- this IS still a game, even if some of us play it like a second job. in this regard, casuals and newbies provide stats of their own. If so many people are having trouble grasping or not enjoying how DRK is more than the "veterans" that find is balanced, SE might still be inclined to change things in order to bring in or entice more subs to play those classes. its kind of a catch 22, and I wish people were just a bit more civil and tried to genuinely help instead of being condescending or dismissing for the sake of pride.

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Originally Posted by Fluffernuff

Yeah, I'm not going to go into the whole "raider vs casual" thing- theres always going to be that divide, and sometimes "skill" isn't what makes that divide. Though there is the point of stats. someone needs to be clearing that content so someone knows what's capable or what is being used in that content. But I cant say I subscribe to raiding being the end-all be all of class balance. SE is a PvE heavy game, yes, but I don't get the vibe that SE is pumping out raid-only content for raid-only players. So I'm sure endgame A8S raiding isnt the sole factor into what goes into class balance.

there's also a factor of enjoyment- this IS still a game, even if some of us play it like a second job. in this regard, casuals and newbies provide stats of their own. If so many people are having trouble grasping or not enjoying how DRK is more than the "veterans" that find is balanced, SE might still be inclined to change things in order to bring in or entice more subs to play those classes. its kind of a catch 22, and I wish people were just a bit more civil and tried to genuinely help instead of being condescending or dismissing for the sake of pride.

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I am stating the fact that people base on their experience and opinions to balance the jobs. You NEED to know the maximum capabilities of all tank jobs to get a better perspective on how to balance, and that's not just through playing certain jobs because it's "fun" to people. This is not for the sake of pride for sure.

Tell me, how do you know if a certain job is better than the rest? By testing it out and compare all the options and judge from the contents that actually push the jobs to the limit. Same applies to anything you do IRL: How to be the better artist? How to be a better surgeon? Tell me, how? The opinions need to tone down and if you want to have a legit discussion, you bring all the data for all of us to discuss or perhaps the rest can add on. IF you are telling "this is my 12.99 and I do whatever I want" then sure, by all means go ahead. But to me, these changes most of you propose are plain "pls buff so i can play this well too". Why not learn together to be better? Why not get better? This is by far how hard SE is dumbing down contents because "THIS CONTENT IS TOO HARD, PLS NERF SO I CAN DO IT". If this is the case, SE can't truly give us better and interesting contents for all of us to do. Do you think all classes need to be so simple that everyone can play?

If all you want is just play the game, why bother chime in discussions about balance issues that aren't so easy to solve? It literally doesn't make any sense that, 1. you are basing on your experience that is low in value and it's a very small sample size hence can't get a definitive comparison, 2. You are separating us into 2 groups which makes me think that you don't intend to contribute in the thread with anything useful and instead just ramble based on what you would like to see (See why PLD was buffed twice in 3.1~3.2, it's definitely not because of raiding??),3. the problems discussed aren't macro enough to address tanks as a whole(1 of 3 getting buffed needs to be in relation to the other 2 jobs and not just isolated to DRK alone), 4. All combined you show that you are not interested in raiding yet decide to leave comments antagonizing me as "raider" like I killed a bunch of you guys and it is a crime to do so, 5. again IF you just say "MY 12.99 MY RULES", then whatever. This is practically the same as Mentor in game, ramble a lot yet can't even do tank/dps/healer jobs properly, "I HAVE CROWN I AM TOO GOOD".

By no means I am targetting anyone here, just my 2cents. Veterans ≠ skilled. Most of them aren't even close tbh, even the legacy players. It's just upsetting that this forum isn't actively used for more productive arguments and instead too many untested opinions. Sad truth. A pretty useless forum that I probably won't be using anymore. Peace out.

It's not like making changes and balancing them in and out of raids is outrageously impossible. You make it sound like we're usurpers out to ruin raiding for everyone, but this isn't about raiding in particular so much as making tweaks to a single class in order to help it better reflect its history. /Goodbye

is not a question about reflect drk history, this is another charpter in DRK history, and one whe the job dont become useless or get substituted for better jobs like in ff3 or change for paladin like ff4, he is well placed in the lore and in the sistem, even if DRK was dps SE do the same like jackfrost say, sacrifice HP in a non turn based game make many thinks make the job become garbage or overpower, there is no middle ground for that.

There's always a middle ground. It might seem a scary concept, but it's workable. And drk has roots in older lore than just final fantasy.

I can't say I've encountered anyone who simultaneously pushes three different jobs to the limit, let alone two. There are probably a lot of people who think they do, but having such a mindset prevents you from pushing the limits of anything. You don't become a better sculptor by sinking most of your time into oil painting. Like with any procedural skill, the best way to improve at DRK is to practice playing DRK.

The prerequisites for theorycrafting are having an interest, having a thirst for knowledge, and having an open mind. Most of the math is simple and can be picked up along the way. I don't think that raiding is a requirement for having an opinion. Some of the most interesting experiments and datasets that I've seen over the past three years come from max level mobs in Mor Dhona/Azys Lla. A lot of this raider/non-raider dichotomy comes from the midcore mindset and the need for such players to set themselves apart from the casual crowd. An extra 9-12 hours a week doesn't entitle someone to more of an opinion. If anything, it often seems like the most skilled players don't share these preconceptions.

It's also okay to be wrong. Sometimes, in the process of pointing out why something is incorrect, you gain greater insight into why you make certain decisions, which gives you greater insight into the job. If that's difficult to do, then it usually indicates that you haven't understood the concept as well as you think you do. Also, you should verify everything that you read for yourself.

I do agree with Syz's earlier sentiments on DRK, though. At present, it's a fun, well-balanced job. I don't really want to see it follow the same route WAR did from 2.x to 3.0. I like that there are trade-offs. I like the fact that you get punished for making mistakes. I like the fact that every skill doesn't automatically synergize with every other skill. This promotes actual decision making. It's in a pretty good place right now.

Relevance lol. And after all these claims of drk being in a good place it was changed rather dramatically anyways, though not in a way that anyone seemed to be asking for...

It's balanced now but at the expense of fun. I guess we'll have to see what they do with DRK in the Fan Festival trailer for all jobs that's coming soon. I really hope they changed it, otherwise this might be the last time I'll play DRK before Endwalker.

I hope that DRK development moves more towards what Kentaro Miura created with Guts, especially after his passing. RIP Kentaro, you will be missed.

Rereading the series for the 10th time.