This game needs better DPS feedback

I'm still surprised that one of the primary arguments against a parser is "Well... you can't expect everyone to play optimally".

...I'm sorry, but when the WAR in my FC is out DPSing 80% of the DPS in Midas (normal) when they are of equal ilvl, it makes you start to question the competency of most DPS you run with. The PLD in my FC has out DPS'd 9 out of 10 BRDs of equal ilvl that we've been matched with in Midas (normal) while MTing too.

I don't expect any DPS to play at the God-like skill level that many anti-parser people claim the pro-parser people to play at. I do expect them to be able to beat the WAR OT and PLD MT more often than naught because that's their responsibility to the raid. Perhaps if these DPS see that their DPS is below the tank's it would encourage them to try harder.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Its not about "you are not reaching 100%". Its more about the growing mass of people not even reaching the 30% mark. There should be a feedback to these players. There are many people outside that don't care about their performance because they don't know how bad they perform. I'm pretty shure there are alot of people, which would try to do better, if they would know about how far they are away from being good (not super or awesome, just good).

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The primary argument is about the harassment party wide parser's can and have caused. That is a very legitimate argument and I have seen people doing such with party wide parser's many, many times in groups. Also if someone is only doing 30% then you do not need a parser to notice that in the first place. Personal parser's I am fine with, party wide one's I am against. Very few people seem to actually privately whisper/tell the player and give helpful, kind advice to them rather than resorting to shaming, belittling, insulting and harassing them in public group chat.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

The primary argument is about the harassment party wide parser's can and have caused. That is a very legitimate argument and I have seen people doing such with party wide parser's many, many times in groups. Also if someone is only doing 30% then you do not need a parser to notice that in the first place. Personal parser's I am fine with, party wide one's I am against. Very few people seem to actually privately whisper/tell the player and give helpful, kind advice to them rather than resorting to shaming, belittling, insulting and harassing them in public group chat.

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It's always the underperforming players who complain on the forums that they see allot of parser abuse. I wonder why that would be? Always the underperforming players afraid of "harassment" because they are well aware they suck. They just don't want others to be able to see they suck and call them out on it. They do not want to be held accountable.

If everyone were to play well, there would be almost no elitism. Elitism exists because bad players frustrate some people to the point that they become total dicks. If bad players didn't exist, there would be overall less stress and irritation caused by things like enraging on a8n.(a simple casual fight) In other words, bad play breeds elitism.

People don't like deadweight on their team. Which is why deadweight players get kicked from groups. Then the deadweight player comes on the forums to complain about evil elitists kicking them from parties. They cannot win a fight because nobody wants them on their team, which according to them, is the true evil. They paid their 15$ after all.
These people deserve no sympathy. They have no one but themselves to blame. Instead, they blame the players that won't put up with their crap.

I've said this before and I will say this again. The truly toxic players aren't the ones who care about winning and call out people making mistakes. The toxic players are the whiny dead weight players with a large sense of entitlement and fragile feelings.

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

It's always the underperforming players who complain on the forums that they see allot of parser abuse. I wonder why that would be? Always the underperforming players afraid of "harassment" because they are well aware they suck. They just don't want others to be able to see they suck and call them out on it. They do not want to be held accountable.

If everyone were to play well, there would be almost no elitism. Elitism exists because bad players frustrate some people to the point that they become total dicks. If bad players didn't exist, there would be overall less stress and irritation caused by things like enraging on a8n.(a simple casual fight) In other words, bad play breeds elitism.

People don't like deadweight on their team. Which is why deadweight players get kicked from groups. Then the deadweight player comes on the forums to complain about evil elitists kicking them from parties. They cannot win a fight because nobody wants them on their team, which according to them, is the true evil. They paid their 15$ after all.
These people deserve no sympathy. They have no one but themselves to blame. Instead, they blame the players that won't put up with their crap.

I've said this before and I will say this again. The truly toxic players aren't the ones who care about winning and call out people making mistakes. The toxic players are the whiny dead weight players with a large sense of entitlement and fragile feelings.

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You do not know whether I am a good or bad player, you have never been in a group with me so please don't assume I am bad just because I pointed out a valid argument against their use. On the flip side to your stance...if more people who use party wide parser's were not dicks then it would not be a valid argument against SE implementing an official version. Maybe if people stop being dicks so often SE might change their mind, as might I but no-one forces so many to act like a dick even if they are slightly frustrated. In the end my argument is only valid because so many act that way rather than privately and politely giving advice instead of the public shaming and insulting that often goes on by people using them. Being pissed off or frustrated is not a valid excuse for acting like a dick anymore so than it being a get out of jail free card for murdering the people you simply don't like.

Having to consider spending another large sum of money, after buying a ps4, on a pc capable of parsing and running the game smoothly just to be on par with amazing unofficial features makes me sick to my stomach. Especially since I'd also have to buy the pc version, while already owning both the ps4 and ps3 versions.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

You do not know whether I am a good or bad player, you have never been in a group with me so please don't assume I am bad just because I pointed out a valid argument against their use. On the flip side to your stance...if more people who use party wide parser's were not dicks then it would not be a valid argument against SE implementing an official version. Maybe if people stop being dicks so often SE might change their mind, as might I but no-one forces so many to act like a dick even if they are slightly frustrated. In the end my argument is only valid because so many act that way rather than privately and politely giving advice instead of the public shaming and insulting that often goes on by people using them. Being pissed off or frustrated is not a valid excuse for acting like a dick anymore so than it being a get out of jail free card for murdering the people you simply don't like.

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There is more people parsing then you think. Those people don't mention it most of the time so you don't even know. The only way for you to know people are parsing is when they mention it and insult someone. This gives you confirmation bias that parser user=dick. Only a fraction of people with parsers actually say/do anything towards other players. This parser "harassment" you speak of is almost non-existent. There is more harassment happening without parsers being involved. I also consider dead weight crybully victims joining parties a serious form of harassment.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

harassment party wide parser's can and have caused.

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Parsers do not cause harassment, they are tools. That's 100% bullshit. Harassers cause harassment, and guess what, it's already a reportable offence. Stop using harassment as an argument against parsers, you are abusing a legitimate and important issue for a disingenuous and invalid argument. Harassment is a very serious problem and I am quite frankly extremely pissed that people like you continue to exploit it for your bullshit. If you would actually care about harassment, you would demand that the already existing anti-harassment policies be better enforced and improved, and not whine about an extremely useful tool that has literally no causal connection to the issue. Stop.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

The primary argument is about the harassment party wide parser's can and have caused.

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Have you considered that this type of harassment is only possible BECAUSE not everyone has access to a parser? I mean if they implemented an in-game parser, that we could all see, as soon as someone calls someone out for low dps (which I do think would happen), everyone can the instantly see if it's justified or not. Either the person being called out IS playing very poorly, in which case they deserve to be called out, or they aren't, and whoever's shouting can be told to STFU.

At the moment, half of us are completely in the dark, someone calls someone else out, none of us know if it's valid or not. I genuinely don't get how more clarity can be deemed to be a bad thing, other than by people who actively want to get carried through content putting in no effort, or are just inherently bad and know a parser would expose them

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Having to consider spending another large sum of money, after buying a ps4, on a pc capable of parsing and running the game smoothly just to be on par with amazing unofficial features makes me sick to my stomach. Especially since I'd also have to buy the pc version, while already owning both the ps4 and ps3 versions.

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Then start demanding for SE to enforce their own rules. PCs have an advantage because SE is turning a blind eye on a prohibited third party program. It doesn't matter whether that's a parser, a boss mod, a hunt tracker, a mobile loot database or even a bot, this fact is what causes PC users to have an edge. And as long as SE is tolerating third party programs, PCs will keep having one.

That said, I personally wouldn't mind having an official gathering/crafting bot implementation...

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Originally Posted by LegitChamp

Why do people go into a DF PuG expecting optimal performance? Over 15 years of MMORPGs and this game more than any of the others I see people expecting top production out of a PuG. I feel lucky to even completed a dungeon in a PuG without half a dozen wipes. If you want perfection go play with a static.

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Interesting that you mention FFXIV has the most elitist crowd, when FFXIV does not allow a parser. That said, no one is asking for perfection, and using this as an argument is strawman argument.

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Someone later in this thread was complaining that PuG members were pulling 100-200 dps less than what their friends can pull. People, get your expectations in order, you shouldn't expect a PuG dps to consistently do what known (and presumably decent) dps can do. Now, I agree it is frustrating when the dps are obviously just barely paying attention while watching netflix or something. But, typically, these complaints are aimed not just at those lackluster dps, but also at people legitimately trying just not playing as perfectly as the practiced elitists prefer.

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I am not sure if you are referring to me, I have not read every post - but I think mine is one of the few (if not only) which compares PuG DPS to my friends. That said, my friend was pulling 1300 and the median DPS pull 800 with the absolute best DPS pulling 1100. So yes, the absolute best DPS out there pulled 15% less DPS than my friend, and the average pulled 30% less.

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Also, threads like this are why we don't get DPS meters. Because everyone can read between the lines and see that if DPS meters were allowed, half the people in this thread would blast people because they aren't pulling optimal dps 100% of the time. I personally love dps meters in other MMOs because it gives me something to compete against (whether fellow dps or my own dps) but with the amount of hate thrown at anyone not managing end-game raider dps is it any wonder they refuse to allow them?

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I do enjoy the irony here, where you are judging an entire community of players on this thread with 0 knowledge of them about being judgmental of other players. You, again, used a strawman argument.

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Like someone else has mentioned, I will take someone who avoids aoes, knows how to switch targets to avoid ripping aggro, and uses group buffs/interrupts appropriately over someone pulling optimal dps 100% of the time. Yes, both would be ideal, but nobody should expect perfection out of a PuG.

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In most games, and FFXIV specifically, the top DPS will be someone who does mechanics properly. People who do not will often die and their numbers consequently drop. Further, people can tunnel vision without the addition of a parser, and people can parse without tunnel visioning. They not only don't cause one another, but they are not even correlated.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

The primary argument is about the harassment party wide parser's can and have caused. That is a very legitimate argument and I have seen people doing such with party wide parser's many, many times in groups. Also if someone is only doing 30% then you do not need a parser to notice that in the first place. Personal parser's I am fine with, party wide one's I am against. Very few people seem to actually privately whisper/tell the player and give helpful, kind advice to them rather than resorting to shaming, belittling, insulting and harassing them in public group chat.

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You are correct, this is the primary argument about parsers. However, this is less of an argument and more of a concern/fear. Why? Because there is 0 research on the matter, and consequently 0 proof. People can be dicks on the internet - which is just an unfortunate reality. People will be dicks regardless, but parsers can be used by them. Now, I accept that there is a possibility that parsers cause harassment, but without any evidence or research, it's a bit unfair to say that they have caused harassment.

As for your added evidence of "i have seen..." this is purely anecdotal - contrary to you I have never seen harassment related to parsing and have seen harassment caused by people clearly not parsing a lot. For example, I've been in pugged coil raids back in 2.x where 1 guy was yelling at everyone else in the raid for having crappy DPS. I was on my SCH, so did not bear the brunt of his madness, but I was parsing and saw that he had the lowest DPS by far. Perhaps if he was parsing he would have realized this and not attacked the guy doing twice his numbers. That doesn't mean that having a parser reduces harassment, and all we can conclude is people have varying experiences and people can be jerks with or without a parser.

As for your final point, a parser can be used without anyone speaking. That is the biggest benefit of it - in my opinion. One can see and adapt their DPS without the need for chatter. I like to promote chatter, but no matter how you take it, people are sensitive and will over-react when being given advice. It is incredibly embarrassing to be told you are not doing well at something.

PS: You can see that for the above poster, I broke his post into pieces for formatting. as I understand you dislike this format, I kept your post all the same. I hope you appreciate it :)

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Originally Posted by _slowpoke_

Parsers do not cause harassment, they are tools. That's 100% bullshit. Harassers cause harassment, and guess what, it's already a reportable offence. Stop using harassment as an argument against parsers, you are abusing a legitimate and important issue for a disingenuous and invalid argument. Harassment is a very serious problem and I am quite frankly extremely pissed that people like you continue to exploit it for your bullshit. If you would actually care about harassment, you would demand that the already existing anti-harassment policies be better enforced and improved, and not whine about an extremely useful tool that has literally no causal connection to the issue. Stop.

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How ironic that you accuse me of abusing an argument/position regarding the abuse of the tool in question. A tool which is being used as a method by a lot of people who are more than willing to use against others to publicly shame and harass them.

Does this mean everyone misuses it? No, but a lot of people do and it is partially because of that which SE does not officially support it and is the same reason I do not. The argument I made was valid whether you like it or not. I actually like the idea of personal parser's but I do not like party wide ones because of the abuse I have seen frequently by those who use them. Am I biased in that I can only speak about what I have seen? Yes in the same way others might be biased in the other direction if they haven't seen it happen as much. Can I claim the majority of people abuse it? No, but I can without a doubt say a lot of people do because I have seen a lot of people doing so. Is it a useful and good tool in the right hands? Sure but in my experience it is quite often not used by people the right way.

It is a loaded gun which quite a lot of people are more than willing to fire at another to cause grief or because they lack emotional self control to use it maturely, instead of sticking to polite and private one to one conversations they resort to insults and public shaming in group chat, party wide parser's being the tool they use to do pick their target for their anger and hate. Maybe if less people misused it then myself and SE would have a different policy or stance about it.

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

Have you considered that this type of harassment is only possible BECAUSE not everyone has access to a parser? I mean if they implemented an in-game parser, that we could all see, as soon as someone calls someone out for low dps (which I do think would happen), everyone can the instantly see if it's justified or not. Either the person being called out IS playing very poorly, in which case they deserve to be called out, or they aren't, and whoever's shouting can be told to STFU.

At the moment, half of us are completely in the dark, someone calls someone else out, none of us know if it's valid or not. I genuinely don't get how more clarity can be deemed to be a bad thing, other than by people who actively want to get carried through content putting in no effort, or are just inherently bad and know a parser would expose them

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I have considered that yes. If everyone used it I believe personally it would merely increase the amount of people insulting and being abusive towards others. As shown in here already some people really can't seem to keep their emotions in check and it would be like giving everyone a loaded gun which would increase the amount of people shot. I cannot prove that would happen, it is just a guess but one that makes perfect sense to me.

The thing is even if they are talking to the right person and the person was doing badly...there is still a right way and wrong way to discuss it with them. There is no simple solution since everyone using one could potentially increase the amount of abuse that goes on, personal parser's won't please those who also want party wide ones, people won't all act maturely or more responsibly with it and no matter how strict SE's policies may get on abuse it won't stop some people who lack self control from using it in a bad way...but I cannot see how anyone can pretend that it is not being misused, it is that misuse is a valid reason as to why SE does not officially support.

I usually just complain about what a shit DPS I am and how I always let BotD fall off. I pull around 1,000 DPS at ilvl 199. Dunno if that's good or bad though.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

How ironic that you accuse me of abusing an argument/position regarding the abuse of the tool in question.

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Can you point to me where the irony here is? Is the irony that people are abusing the anti-harassment policies? Can you prove it? What's ironic here?

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

How ironic that you accuse me of abusing an argument/position regarding the abuse of the tool in question. A tool which is being used as a method by a lot of people who are more than willing to use against others to publicly shame and harass them.

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The problem with this to me is that there are a lot of tools / things in the game which can be used by others to publicly shame them, such as:

Duty Finder
Party Finder
Chat
DPS Checks
Mechanics
Tank Busters
Heal Checks

If all of these things were not in the game, I'd imagine we'd see very little harassment! Square, plz fix.

It's actually funny, for all the arguments there are for harassment with a parser, there's probably some harassment issues that are solved by actually having a parser available.

For example, a friend of mine was playing BRD in EXDR in the 2.3 or 2.4 patch era and ended up in a double BRD composition. They ended up wiping to something and the other BRD started to badger my friend about doing X, Y, and Z in their rotation to get more DPS. The tank then piped in here to the effect of "Umm... you know that other BRD is doubling your DPS, yeah?" Shut the other BRD up really fast afterwards.

Some food for thought to add to the continual discussion of this topic.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

it would be like giving everyone a loaded gun which would increase the amount of people shot. I cannot prove that would happen, it is just a guess but one that makes perfect sense to me.

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Well actually when you give everyone a loaded gun you get a mexican stand off. Nobody wants to shoot first because then all hell breaks loose and everyone dies. So actually giving everyone a loaded gun typically makes people talk things out.

Also if everyone can see that someone is doing badly, and they themselves can see they are doing badly there are a few choices. 1) That person can decide to put some research into getting better. 2) They can continue pulling low numbers not caring. 3) The rest of the group can carry them 4) They can kick the low performing person and get someone who can perform.

When there's an official parser in a content and everyone can see everyone else's DPS, it would be a big motivation to me if I'd see I'm worse than every other DD. I think I would think about my play style even more than before.

But I can also easily see why there are people afraid of "harassment", if you can call it like that. Some people tend to be rude. (But no, I'm not against parsers in general)

Perhaps this can be worked into the Anima weapon quest line, where as our weapon's spirit grows it starts to fill the screen with chat bubbles containing nothing but relentless criticism if it thinks we're not doing enough damage. "Hit harder you bastard! I said harder, you puling streak of piss!"

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Originally Posted by Confidence_Trick

Perhaps this can be worked into the Anima weapon quest line, where as our weapon's spirit grows it starts to fill the screen with chat bubbles containing nothing but relentless criticism if it thinks we're not doing enough damage. "Hit harder you bastard! I said harder, you puling streak of piss!"

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"A shameful display. You have brought disgrace to your ancestors. You must hone your skills and strike with greater precision."

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

How to tell if you're doing well (DPS edition):
[ ] Are things that are supposed to die dying?
[ ] Are you using your cooldowns when you can and/or when it's appropriate?
[ ] Did you avoid all avoidable damage unless the healer/raid leader told you not to?
[ ] Did your group successfully complete the encounter?

If you're 4/4 on these, then congratulations! You're playing the game adequately, and no one has any right to tell you otherwise.

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You are missing a few.

() Are you using positional's properly
() Are you keeping your buffs (EX. Greased Lightning, Huton, Blood of the Dragon) up
() Are you using your AOE utility during big pulls (5+ mobs at once)

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Now, I accept that there is a possibility that parsers cause harassment, but without any evidence or research, it's a bit unfair to say that they have caused harassment.

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There is no possibility of parsers causing harassment, because a tool can't harass anyone. People using said tool can cause harassment, but as multiple people have pointed out, they can (and do) harass people without that tool. We don't need research for that, it's a plain illogical argument. The only thing that empiric research could show is whether there's a correlation between parsers and harassment, and if so, how strong it is. Even then, it would tell us nothing about parsers, but about people who use parsers, and as such what sort of measures we (or rather, SE) should take against these people and their actions (and not against parsers).

This is an extremely divisive issue that doesn't seem like it is going to be remedied any time soon.

That said, I still don't understand the adamant defense of poor/lazy play. When I go into an expert roulette, for instance, I hope to see DPS pulling more than you could pull 10 levels and over 100 item levels ago. What about that expectation is detracting from someone else's fun? So, if DPS X wants to go into a roulette and exclusively auto attack, their "fun and relaxation" is more important than that of the three other players in the group?

To reiterate, I don't think anyone against poor play is advocating for fully optimized, savage-level DPS. Hell, I am pretty sure that my rotation isn't as optimal as it could be. For me, I just would like for runs to feel like the other members of my party and/or alliance give a damn.

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Originally Posted by missybee

That said, I still don't understand the adamant defense of poor/lazy play. When I go into an expert roulette, for instance, I hope to see DPS pulling more than you could pull 10 levels and over 100 item levels ago.

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I ran a "Dusk Vigil" recently on my then 51 Dragoon in fresh ilvl 120 with a ilvl 115 HQ spear with my guild leader who was ilvl 217 in full Esoteric Dragoon gear + some (obviously) because I asked. I have screen shots of me doing over 100 more DPS than her at 10 levels less and around 100 less ilvl....

So...-face palm- How does one do so poorly?

Edit: I never say anything though. I just use it to make sure I'm doing okay. I want the highest numbers for my ilvl. I'm usually #1 DPS and if I get beat it just makes me want to try harder and learn my Dragoon even better. I'm still new to Dragoon's new rotation. I played back in 2.x when it was simple.

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Originally Posted by _slowpoke_

There is no possibility of parsers causing harassment, because a tool can't harass anyone. People using said tool can cause harassment, but as multiple people have pointed out, they can (and do) harass people without that tool. We don't need research for that, it's a plain illogical argument. The only thing that empiric research could show is whether there's a correlation between parsers and harassment, and if so, how strong it is. Even then, it would tell us nothing about parsers, but about people who use parsers, and as such what sort of measures we (or rather, SE) should take against these people and their actions (and not against parsers).

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While I agree and strongly think that parsers do not cause harassment, I disagree that the entire argument is illogical. Just as they cannot come to a conclusion without research, neither can we. There is no evidence or research to support that adding a parser in increases (or decreases, or has no effect on) the likely hood that people will behave in a negative manner.

Parsers would not harass someone, but the information they provide may entice people to behave negatively - which is how they cause it.

Keep in mind that something causing an action does not need to actually do the action.


All of that said, I think the best way to phrase it would be to say, "I believe adding a parser will enable further toxicity among the playerbase."

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Originally Posted by Krissey

So...-face palm- How does one do so poorly?

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Inquiring minds would like to know!

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Originally Posted by Krissey

I never say anything though. I just use it to make sure I'm doing okay. I want the highest numbers for my ilvl. I'm usually #1 DPS and if I get beat it just makes me want to try harder and learn my Dragoon even better. I'm still new to Dragoon's new rotation. I played back in 2.x when it was simple.

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That's pretty much exactly how I use it. It's really nice to have the instantaneous feedback.

I don't know what can be done all I can suggest if people feel this strongly about having good people to do casual content don't use the duty finder solo qued and start up link shells or party finder and strictly do it from your pool of ppl from own server perhaps. Finding like mined people might help, one thing for sure this isn't a JP issue. /shrug

I was once with a level 60 Bard who used AoE skills from time to time on a single target, and she never used Wanderer's Minuet. ME and my brother (WHM) tried to explain to them that they shouldn't do that, because its a HUGE waste of TP and a MASSIVE waste of time and DPS potential. They ignored us, then complained that everything was taking to long to die.

_-_

I also got a Bard once when doing Ultima's Ballad who was level 60 (Level 60 legs/accessories) who was equipped with a lv. 48 Bow and who spammed Wide Volley and Venomous Bite all day. It was painful.

I wouldn't mind something like a parser in the game which shows your own dps. Just to see where you stand. I had so many dps which apparently didn't know their rotation very well (I remember a Heavy Thrust->Ring of Thorns dragoon who strongly believed that this was his rotation) who won't listen when you explain them their combos (in a nice and polite manner).

I just experience too many who also just shrug when you mention encountering these people in e.g. Midas (normal) and say "as long as it dies it is fine" and "even a small river can take down a mountain". You won't. Not when that mountain has an enrage timer.