Healers are like friends.... The best ones come with additional benefits. :P Not to say that the healers who don't dps are "bad" as some call them, they're in fact playing the class they choose to play which is healer I have no gripe with that. But in this case however I do think the healer is in the wrong here. They shouldn't have reacted the way they did, they had no clue who the tank was nor if he was good so having to turn off cleric stance and heal him for a second is no the end of the world. In regards if healers should dps, I think they should do what they feel comfortable with I just hope I don't get grouped with them. XD
Is dpsing and a healer becoming the standard norm!
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03-13-2016, 07:21 AMIceSpear
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03-13-2016, 07:56 AMThunda_Cat_SMASH
Be a good healer. Carry all those bad DPS. That way they'll never be expected to get better. ' I'm Keeping DPS job expectations low is everyone's responsibility!
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03-13-2016, 08:13 AMcgbspender
And here goes the monthly "Healer shouldn't dps" thread again.
FYI, Antitower is one of the easiest duns to mitigate. When I sign up as a healer (whm) in here, I spend 90% of my time in cleric stance.
For many reasons :
1/ Mobs don't hit too hard. When a pack of mobs is initiated, I cast divine Seal + regen + E4E / or Asylum+Regen. Immediatly switching to CS, I burst aoe the pack. When we're done with it, my initial aero3 is still ongoing, most of the times (ie, they died fast - fast enough for me not to have to heal)
2/ AOE dps from whm is extremely high, much higher than any random DF Pug.
3/ I tend to let the tank drop very low, as in 15-30% and top him within a second. Tetra or Bene usually do. You may not notice we switch on and off cleric, but we do. It's just done really, really fast. It takes me litterally no more than 1 second, to switch off CS > Tetra > Switch CS back on.
The primary reason these threads exist are that most players are unaware of our abilities as healers. They assume that when they see us in CS, it's how we were, we are and will be. That is totally nonsense. We watch HP bars, ALL THE TIME. We switch CS on and off ALL THE TIME. Most players are just too bad to see anything but their own "hits" anyway. If you paid a little attention, you'd certainly notice (and hopefully admire) the beauty of some of the best dancing-healers.
I sometimes do stay off-CS longer, when I know a big attack is coming, preparing some regen, anticipating with a med II and such. Not every healer do that. It's not that they aren't "good", it's just that they don't know the fight as well as some others and are still in the process of learning. And I don't mind.
When I sign as a dps and a healer let us die, because he was careless doing too much dps, it's OKAY. I tell him what and whatnots. And we keep going. I'd rather have a healer who tries to push it a little (and occasionnally can't heal me in time) than a healer doing nothing. A-NY-DAY -
03-13-2016, 08:29 AModintius
Had a tank in PvP gear couldn't hold hate so I stop DPS and focus heal then complain why I'm not DPS told him I'll show him why proceeded to do so could not keep hate their why I said. If I see a PvP geared tank I'm hesitate to DPS this is like something new or something lol shroud of saints isn't always for hate manage a few of us whm like to use it for the refresh effect......
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03-13-2016, 09:27 AMAngelicSenceWell said, it's perfect. Nothing else to add. +1Quote:
Originally Posted by cgbspender
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03-13-2016, 09:39 AMAndreaCan confirm, on Leviathan OF is seen as a joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velthice
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03-13-2016, 10:09 AMstardrifter
I never DPS as WHM, I dunno maybe I'm doing it wrong. I doubt it though.
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03-13-2016, 10:53 AMJim_Berry
Healers been dps'ing for a long time. I, personally, don't dps as my WHM anymore; I get so caught into it that the tank dies. I have had a scar since then (around mid 2014), so I stopped it. I even became a fulltime DPS class because of it.
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03-13-2016, 11:16 AMAndreaCan confirm you are indeed doing it wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by stardrifter
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03-13-2016, 11:20 AMstardrifter
If you say so my friend... never had any issues.
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03-13-2016, 11:36 AMOdettYour argument that you constantly post in every one of these topics gets the same answer that you're still unable to rebut. Your argument only makes sense if there was a cap on group DPS. There is none, and the game blatantly shows you that unless your tank has the consistency of tracing paper in Stone Vigil, you're not meant to be full-time healing, If you just stand there without doing anything or insist that overhealing is the answer, that's fine for you, but insisting that (not personally talking to you this is more of a general statement) "I'm not gonna DPS because I'm green icon and green icon is not red icon hurr durr" and having such a narrow mindset while ignoring roughly half of your toolkit makes you a good healer, and not just a normal or mediocre one, you're wrong. You're not a good healer if that's how you view your role in a game that wasn't designed for you to be healing full-time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
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03-13-2016, 11:50 AMFourbestintoner
The norm is actually tabbing out and letting the tank die because you were not paying attention, but I wish it were dpsing. Unless you're doing something with crazy tank busters you can let tanks drop to 30% before healing, when healing trials if my co healer is not dpsing, I'm not healing, unless it's clear he's too incompetent to do it alone.
http://s12.postimg.org/mib2p632l/1455725129913.png -
03-13-2016, 01:29 PMTheUltimateSephQuote:
Originally Posted by Velthice
"I wouldnt say "bad" as much as not optimized. Technically a healers job is to heal, so as long as they are doing that, they are playing their job at a basic level. Fights arent tuned to require a healer to dps them.
That said, I dont know how a healer can have fun if they only heal. I get bored super quick if I cant dps during downtime lol."
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"As has been stated time and time again, a good healer keeps everyone alive, but a GREAT healer knows when they can add some damage to the fight.
Bad experiences put a bad taste in people's mouths and they start to stick to a "DO YOUR ROLE ONLY" mentality to "reduce" these experiences. Makes me sad :("
Taken directly from https://m.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comment...uld_never_dps/
It's basically what I said on one of the early pages on this thread.
Healer dps is awesome to have but ultimately not needed or required. Dps only if you are confident in your ability to keep everyone alive as well. Really what's so hard about this. The reason threads like this decend into futile two sided arguments is because of the people who say any healer who does not dps is bad period.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph
Way to make that rift grow guys. Elitist is really becoming my favorite word. -
03-13-2016, 01:36 PMAndreaNo, thats what we call doing the bare minimum. Which does not make someone good.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph
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03-13-2016, 02:24 PMMycow8me
Tank dps is nice but ultimately not required then. That explains the nerf and healer rage. Guess spamming flash and hate grabs is all i need to do. Thank you for the explanations, i finally understand my role as tank.
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03-13-2016, 02:53 PMKurogaeaNo, its not becoming a norm, but another elitest complaint. If your not dpsing after 2 heals apparently your crippling the team and thats not the case. A good number of my friends who've been playing since beta tried healer classes and dps when necessary (burn phases, extra mana or non threatening enemies). If you want to avoid being criticized about your dps while healing, the first sign is when the other healer asks you to dps on your own or he doesn't help you heal during the first part of the fight. So when the tank dies and you see that other healer in cleric stance, you know it wasn't your fault or the tanks, because everyone know what your job role is, its to heal. Yes you have these skills in your skill set to begin with, but these are mostly for overworld encounters, and dps should be able to take care of themselves since its their main focus. If you ask me, dps are trying to find a scape-goat for their high stress moments in fights now (dps checks). Just heal the way you want to, your role comes first and no one can make you say otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by sorahu
Healing, isn't a tiny job. Time to rest isn't always given for healers. So unless you know exactly moments in a fight to dps then your optimal for that kind of play, though it doesn't make you bad no matter what someone else says. If you can keep the party alive, that makes you a good healer. If the dps can't get past a dps check on their own, that makes them a bad dps (or at least un-equipped for the fight atm). They're called dps for a reason yet people push the blame elsewhere. If a tank can't keep mobs from killing you then that makes them bad tanks (unless your standing in the way or its an un-agroable target). Well thats my thoughts on it anyway. -
03-13-2016, 03:06 PMOdett
It's some posters on this thread that really show a huge problem with this game's community and the constant desire to coddle other players. If you're not comfortable Cleric Dancing for whatever reason, that's fine. You have time to practice and get better at your job. It's another thing altogether to state that it's completely fine to perform your absolute bare minimum and say "eff you" to whoever asks if you can get some practice at using your entire toolkit, and this goes for tanks, healers, and DPS. If the game only provided you with DPS moves as a healer for solo fights and not for dungeons, they'd go to the extremes that they did with PvP and completely block out cleric stance. There's a reason why half your skills aren't blocked out when you enter a dungeon..
It's ok if you don't feel comfortable DPSing sometimes, but to encourage others to do their absolute minimum, that is something I will never be able to stand behind. If you want to be lazy, go ahead, but don't expect to act as an authority of the game telling others that it's completely OK to play subpar, not try, and not expect any kid of backlash. -
03-13-2016, 03:09 PMNektulos-Tuor
I just wanna do something else.
If I see a healer just not doing anything with 100% mana and i'm barely taking damage I usually just watch a movie and spam aoes and take off my damage too to make the run as long as possible.
I mean might as well play along yea? -
03-13-2016, 03:19 PMWhiteroom
There is almost no healing to be done in the current dungeons. To sit there and hit cure once every ten seconds would be such a bore. I guess some poeple have really, really low expectations on themselves. Without healer dps dungeons would be that much longer of cure... may as well just make this macro and then go to sleep:
Cure
Wait 10
Cure
Wait 10
Cure
Wait 10
Cure
Wait 10
Cure
Wait 10
Vpose -
03-13-2016, 03:52 PMAngelicSenceI don't want to be rude, but I think you knew the answer from the begging. It's not a matter of right or wrong. It's about understanding what you can do as a healer. In many MMO games, healer class can use offensive abilities. FFXIV is not an exception. White mages are known for their powerful Holy spell, and we have a new spell called Assize. It's all there by the design. Chances of you having issues are slim.. as long as you keep members alive, players not going to do anything. But remember, you have an opportunity to do so much more and essentially become better player. If you see it as a problem, then it's wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by stardrifter
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03-13-2016, 04:13 PMAngelicSenceWait... no, if you see a healer who don't DPS. Don't play along. Think about other members. You are so much better than making a run go long. Don't downgrade yourself lol... Btw, interestingly, I encounter same amount of tankers just like how many healers out there don't DPS make personal rules, such as: I will not start tanking unless you have high mana or I will only tank few monsters because I'm the tanker and It's my choice etc. So much more to add, but yeah... Those people will remain the same forever, while very few % people go up and achieve something magnificent...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor
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03-13-2016, 05:04 PMFoxyArekuThis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slappah
It is however becoming more and more expected from the casual playerbase as time goes on. -
03-13-2016, 05:20 PMKewitt
All depends on the make up of the party really.
with everyone at say 210ish. Ya DPSing shouldn't be an issue.
Now enter with min item level for the newest experts that's a different story... Also a lot of fun if you get over DPS checks. Don't recommend unless you have a group of 4 friends. or random people will think your trolling. -
03-13-2016, 07:29 PMThunda_Cat_SMASHPersonally, I DPS as a healer, even and especially during fights I don't know, because not doing so is apparently insulting even if I have no clue what's going on. I don't enjoy DPSing as a healer due to it being mandatory. Whether there's a cap or isn't is irrelevant, it's still carrying simply due to the fact that a healers DPS is never taken account into a fight, so you aren't putting more into a fight, you're just filling up what the bad DPS can't put in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Odett
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03-13-2016, 07:42 PMlulunami
Healer DPS has always been the norm since the game began in 2.0. I remember joining random shout pug groups for Amdapor Keep and Wanderer's Palace. Everyone expected White Mages and Scholars to DPS in these dungeons. Although in raids, you may have to hold back a bit in order to conserve MP back then (as a WHM).
They nerfed healer DPS and Cleric Stance in PvP because healer jobs were too good. I regularly did the most DPS and most HPS in PvP on WHM. It was so overpowered, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Odett
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03-13-2016, 08:02 PMCyrilLuciferThat never happened on my server during 2.0. We more "relic required" and "darklight required" shouts during the first three months of 2.0, but I never saw healer damage specifically requested at that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by lulunami
That being said, WHMs were sometimes asked to Holy stun the Bees on the wall. I also went into dungeons with my FC with two healers, one to heal and one to DD, just for the sake of fun. So it existed for us, but not in the way you're saying. -
03-13-2016, 08:21 PMsorahu
do you guys think SE should nerf healers dpsing and raise base damage on actual dps? would this balance the game a little more?
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03-13-2016, 08:50 PMSeoulstarI'm not entirely sure about that. Played many MMO's over the years and this is so far the only one where people go crazy about healers dpsing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slappah
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03-13-2016, 09:01 PMLokiWhat a strange idea...Quote:
Originally Posted by sorahu
Personnally i like to be polyvalent and as scholar it's just perfect (i dont play other healer jobs). When your tank is good, as healer if you don't dps omg it's just borring so no let us dps thanks :p
I don't understand healers who don't use 50% of their skills and just overheal their tank for no reasons.
Once i have seen a scholar who was spamming cure on the paladin and who was keeping his fairy for himself and without controling her, so the pet was using her skills randomly on the scholar and sometimes a dps but never on the tank/full party...i just wanted to tell him to wake up or to change his job ^^'
Imo, a healer who doesn't dps (if he can, depends on the situation of course), it's like a tank who doesn't know how to use his defensiv skills or just doesn't use them...or a dps who doesn't use his dps boost/ positional combos etc, healers have several dps skills so why don't you use them?! -
03-13-2016, 09:07 PMAlistaire
It's just the flow of the game. Nobody's going to like it when their roles pretty much require constant action, and your role could too, but instead you just...sit there. If you play a healer to be lazy like that you should probably play another role.
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03-13-2016, 09:10 PMLadyValI totally get your point of view. I think it is unique to us SCH, though, or at least more common. We have an entire DPS moveset, since, well, we all started out as a DPS class. WHM and AST did not, and while they get more buffs, we get more DPS options. I'm not saying DPS from a WHM or AST is weak/bad, it's just much more a part of naturally being a SCH since you have to learn the DPS part of the job to unlock the healer portion. WHM and AST just never go through that phase of literally being a DPS class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki
Personally I DPS just because it's something to do other than standing around and being pretty, and even if I'm feeling lazy I'll just cast some dots and shadow flare and bane and leave it at that. But then of course you always have people who play any class bare-bones, instead of using all of their tools as often as possible. -
03-13-2016, 09:17 PMBlackCross
Warning: Angry rant about the current state of healers incoming, read at your own risk.
So I really like healing. I like supporting a group and keeping them alive. In all mmos I've played, I mainly healed. But in this game, I cannot enjoy it anymore because it feels more like I've become a "dps lite" who heals occasionaly than a full time healer. It's funny when my merit as a "good healer" or a "bad healer" is decided by how much dps I can do in a run. It isn't about "can I keep my team alive, even through bigger pulls or mistakes?", it's become "how long can I stay in cleric stance and how many Holys, Assizes and Aero 3s can I get off before I have to heal again".Dungeons have become a matter of staying in cleric stance 90% of the time and speedrunning the thing until you are sick and tired of them. Where's the challenge as a HEALER; you know the role I signed up for? I didn't sign up as a dps and while I dont want to take away dps capabilities completely (I know some people enjoy them), a healer dpsing a majority of the instance should only be possible when you seriously overgear an instance (like 50 ilevels).
Instead of making healing more challenging, of maybe giving us a rotation or mechanics or giving us more combat buffs to work with or even (god forbid) making crowd control matter again (why is sleep useless after early levels anyway?) they only give us more abilities to dps because that's all that seems to matter nowadays.
For that matter, why is it possible to use one medica 2 and all party members are pretty much full HP again apart from the tank? Why does my aoe healing not have a cooldown so I have to use it wisely? Why can assize do both damage and healing, but I use it for dps (and of course the mp) 90% of the time? Why is the scholar's fairy allowed to pretty much solo heal a lot of the instances, thus making them trival? Why does the fairy have a spammable heal and not just gives party buffs with maybe one aoe heal on a cooldown?
God forbid a Scholar has to leave cleric stance, we can't have that! Why is the astro the only healing class with buffs through the cards? I would much prefer being able to give my party a damage buff than having to press my holy button until it breaks, but that might just be me.
I think the problem is that even expert dungeons are so undertuned, just so that everyone can run them. Instead of making expert runs an actual challenge and having them be a part of that mid core content (or at least prepare people for raiding), it's just become one more way for people to gain their currency for gear.
I still enjoy the game and maybe other healers disagree with me (since the healer role is still popular) but I don't enjoy healing in FFXIV anymore.
(end of angry rant. Also I would like to add that I am by no means "pro" but I do enjoy a challenge and would have loved to tackle actually mid-core content) Thanks for those that read this. -
03-13-2016, 09:19 PMOdettYou're missing the point a little. Healer DPS isn't "required" unless you're doing cutting-edge content. Healer DPS is asked because there is way too much downtime in the majority of this game's content to not do so. You're either just standing there doing absolutely nothing or giving the appearance of looking busy by healing your tank whenever their health falls 1 point below 100% (something that is completely excessive unless you're dealing with a current raid tank buster). The sooner you stop overhealing, the sooner you'll realize that full-time healing is not something that healers were designed for in this game, yet people insist that it is and their answer is to overheal.Quote:
Originally Posted by sorahu
I still don't understand where this "current" thing is coming from. From your first dungeon, if you're not overhealing, you should realize that you have a ton of downtime; it's been like this since ARR was released on day one.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackCross
That's entirely dependent on the context of the situation. If you're dealing with "that" group where AoE markers have a gravitational pull on your other party members, the tank cannot mitigate themselves out of a paper bag, or for a more specific case, let's say you're in The Chrysallis and people didn't grab orbs so now the boss has 5 stacks on him and you're a SCH so you Succor everyone, Sacred Soil, and use Fey Convenant so the group doesn't die, that's some pretty good healing. But that's the thing, your worth for measuring yourself as a healer solely by your heals is directly related to how much healing you have to do to keep people from dying (while it's also their duty to dodge AoEs and not take barely mitigated or unmitigated tank busters to the face). If you're constantly and unnecessarily keeping people topped off all the time when the situation doesn't call for it, you're just giving off the illusion of being useful, because you could be doing other things with the effort you're putting. Even as a WHM where you don't have a fairy to aid with heals, why do you take it unto yourself (not you personally) to spam Cure 1 when you can Divine Seal Regen, Asylum, and make your job so much easier. By that point, if you're adamant on not DPSing, I'd rather you go AFK than still insist on healing me whenever I fall below 100% HP and not take advantage of the regens you put on me and also my ability to mitigate and self-heal as a tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackCross
Because again, you're not meant to be full-time healing. That's a game design, not a flaw.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackCross
Because there would be absolutely no point in adding different jobs to fulfill the same role of they all played exactly the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackCross
I completely agree. You can blame the people who complained about how dungeons were "too hard" when 2.1 came out and how the devs listened by making every single dungeon after that a complete faceroll, and even went as far as to nerf Amdapor Keep. I had high hopes for Heavensward dungeons when I did Research Facility as a fresh 60 and then it all came tumbling down. It's pretty funny how the starter dungeon is much more challenging than anything that came after because mechanics actually matter there.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackCross
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03-13-2016, 09:25 PMSilica-chanI'd prefer if content outside of current end game raid would just scale with our gear to keep it interesting and proably a bit more challenging but I doubt we will see that anytime soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by sorahu
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03-13-2016, 09:43 PMZojha
Honestly, the only reason I DPS when I heal is because I'm bored >_>
Mana management is completely trivial. You can go into a boss fight at less than half mana and be fine. You have to spam AoEs to even get close to oom and consequently, you got lots of mana to spare for DPS.
Moreover, healing is simply overpowered. Going from 5% back to 100% takes but a few casts, so outside of tank busters, letting the tank drop is no big issue. Even in big pulls, incoming healing tends to overpower incoming damage easily, even without CDs. Lack of attention is the primary cause of death, not lack of ability to keep up.
The actual task of healing (and tanking, for that matter) is so easy that you have ample ressources and time to take on the role of the DPS (or, watch netflix). That is one part why healers are urged to DPS.
The other part is that healer DPS is very strong as well. Let's be real here: We could disable cleric stance tomorrow and DPSing as healer would still be the most efficient way since you're still just sitting on your mana and got nothing to do. But people wouldn't bat an eye at healers not DPSing because frankly, the impact would be very, very low.
So yeah... -
03-13-2016, 09:49 PMWarlyxbut that happens in 4 mans , and easy 8 mans (24 mans are a joke and always have been outside of failing at mechanics ) , in raids healers go oom , in raids tanks need to time Cds for tankbusters or phases...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
and is working as intended i guess.... -
03-13-2016, 10:52 PMWalielSquenix should just triple or more the incoming damage from bosses auto-attacks and trash, so you would actually have to heal something. I've always found it kind of dumb that healers and tanks can spend more time doing DPS than doing their "real job".Quote:
Originally Posted by sorahu
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03-13-2016, 10:53 PMAndreaI dont think you understand what carrying means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
You could have the two best DPS in the game and just cause a healer throws out dps its considered carrying?
It isn't carrying finishing the fight quicker, the dps are capable of doing that themselves, you as a healer are just speeding it up. -
03-13-2016, 11:41 PMCritical-LimitI play mostly healers and DPS jobs. While it "sounds" like healer has more jobs. When a healer DPS it's the most brain dead combination. When a DPS, dps's, it's much more complicated because the reward of your dPS is higher so the difficulty is higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by sorahu
If healers had positionals, 9 different buffs and debuffs to keep up. Then I agree with you. But playing WHM is easy compared to pushing the best numbers possible on a DPS job. -
03-13-2016, 11:44 PMLaerune
Healer was a douche and should have calm down and the tank was not playing well, since they ignored casting defensive buffs. To answer your question, yes this is the new normal.