AST's weakness in end game

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Originally Posted by TatoRazzino

You can also see that WAR/SCH can't replace PLD/WHM as well as DRK/AST, simply because the last two were designed as main-tanks/healers. If you ignore their DPS toolkit and just focus on their healing spells/skills, you can see that WAR/SCH doesn't have a complete toolkit to main heal. They can, but it takes considerable effort to do it. In my opinion, that's not a problem, and I bet our next tank/healing job will compete for the off-spot of the meta. We just have to give it time. Until then, we can use PLD-WAR/WHM-AST for heavy damage fights where no DPS check is tight, since they offer the safest mitigation/HP restoration combo.

EDIT: another thing that I just remembered: in SCoB, the meta for lots of the fights excluded an off-tank, as lots of groups (even in the beginning) took only one tank to T8-T9. The chosen tank was PLD.

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My problem is that from a "bare bones" point of view, SCH and Nocturnal AST are both made to at least fulfill their basic requirements, being able to contribute enough healing (with a partner in 8man/alliance setup) and that SE largely ignored the extras both of them bring, nocturnal AST being the one to have the short end of the stick and having a completely different design mentality than SCH for some unknown reason ('Arcanist iz hard to balance guise, SCH fairy fundamental 'cuz no regen'). Just talking about healers, it feels like SCH was allowed to keep the 2.0 flaws because 'it's strengths don't matter for the barebones design' (high near-mana neutral DPS), or in the fairy's case it is 'too fundamental' to the job, with 3.0 fixes to make it fit more with the barebones design (apparently it was lacking AoE healing). Meanwhile, WHM never had those design flaws coming from a pure healer class and only lacked healing flaws (quick direct heals) while AST also wasn't designed with those inherit flaws. And because nocturnal AST was meant to replicate most of the healing part of SCH, without breaking too much into its flavor (strong mitigation and pet), it doesn't have anywhere near the 'non-healer' strengths of SCH.

And for the same reason I don't see WHM-N.AST becoming a really favorable match-up at all. At most WHM/N.AST will become on par with D.AST/SCH-WHM/SCH if the SCH has to focus on doing a lot of healing and spending waaaaay less globals on DPS than it does now (which honestly is good enough). Unless they make a complete oversight (wouldn't surprise me) where stacking regens becomes obscenely powerful, in which case WHM-D.AST would be the king comp.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

With all of this theory crafting going on how come no one attempts to figure up the dps contributed from astrologian through the card buffs. Theory crafting works with dps simcraft but not healing. Se has stated countless times about in house scenarios and dps requirements but never have I seen them talk about healer balance outside of trying to make certain mechanics work to the strengths of certain jobs.

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Theorycrafting exact DPS contribution via cards is very difficult to quantify because of the massive amounts of variables you have to consider when applying cards. Here's the list of things to consider:

1. Determine frequency of specific card combinations from happening
2. Determine frequency of specific buff combinations from happening
3. How specific card combinations affect specific classes
4. Party composition
5. Weighted average of each combination and how they affect each other

Each point on that list also has a specific sub list associated with it too. Just consider the probably of specific card combinations:

1. Balance Drawn
2. Arrow Drawn
3. Extend + Balance Drawn
4. Enhanced + Balance Drawn
5. Expand + Balance Drawn
6. Extend + Arrow Drawn
7. Enhanced + Arrow Drawn
8. Expand + Arrow Drawn
9. Extend + No DPS Card Drawn
10. Enhanced + No DPS Card Drawn
11. Expand + No DPS Card Drawn
12. No DPS Card Drawn

And the above list doesn't even incorporate probability changing based on how often Shuffle and Spread are up. Spear also plays a factor in DPS but it's more difficult to use and quantify because Spear needs to be played at a time where a lot of DPS abilities are coming off cooldown and reducing the cooldown of a DPS enhancing buff like Blood for Blood may not necessarily give a DPS increase because said player may need to hold buff anyway for say, an invulnerability phase or burst phase that's coming up soon.

Then you have to be able to play the card on a DPS and depending on their buff(s) activate could dramatically change their use. Take DRG for example:

1. No Buffs
2. Blood for Blood
3. Internal Release
4. Battle Litany
5. Blood for Blood + Internal Release
6. Blood for Blood + Battle Litany
7. Internal Release + Battle Litany
8. Blood for Blood + Internal Release + Battle Litany

And then each class itself is affected differently by each type of DPS card. Balance is a good all around but should be stacked with someone with a fair amount of buffs active if possible. Arrow is great for NIN, MNK, WAR, and BLM (baring no resource constraints). Spear is generally useful for DRGs, NINs, and MCHs with some usefulness to other DPS classes if their DPS augmenting buffs are coming off CD for a dummy-esque fight. So, your desired buffs and buff priority can change depending on your group composition and there are a ton of different group combinations.

It's... a lot to consider at once. Given how badly I fudged up the MP efficiency theorycraft which has a lot less variables associated with it, probably not something I'll personally try for a while. lol. Though I commend anyone who wants to take a crack at it because it'll be worth the read.

Arrow is also great for Dragoon. It's really nice for multiple gk/blood of the dragon buff.
Arrow speed up the rotation and it allows you to do more gk/min.

@AzureFlare
Notice that I didn't say nocturnal Astro. I don't see N. AST as an off-healer version of D. AST because your toolkit is still there and you can still main heal some fights in Nocturnal, even with a SCH in the group (A2S, for example). In my opinion, it's more a matter of play style than a matter of duty requirements.
Also, WHM/N. AST is a good combo for Thordan. The constant moving around the arena, repositioning the boss and constant AoE damage allow for N. AST to shine a bit in areas a SCH can't. Also, a lot of the SCH's DPS is lost when Shadow Flare becomes hard to use efficiently; if we're just throwing some DoTs and adding some burst spells when we see the boss doing his basic Dragon Eye + Knights of the Round rotation in the beginning of each fight, AST's combined potency can be higher than SCH's. When I cleared Thordan for the first time, I was playing D. AST with a SCH; I solo healed the first phase while adding some DoTs here and there and he DPSed the whole time, he also DPSed a little bit during the two knights part while I solo healed, and on the phases after Ultimate End, we DPSed the same amount of time by adding our full DoT rotation and some burst spells at the star of each phase. At the end of the fight, he parsed something around 360 and I parsed 280. Only 80 more, and he DPSed way more than I did. The second time I cleared it, I beat the SCH in DPS, and I had to solo heal the first phase with almost no DPS at all, only adding DoTs at the start of each phase. We're not as far behind as some people want us to be.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Theorycrafting exact DPS contribution via cards is very difficult to quantify because of the massive amounts of variables you have to consider when applying cards. Here's the list of things to consider:
[...]
Given how badly I fudged up the MP efficiency theorycraft which has a lot less variables associated with it, probably not something I'll personally try for a while. lol. Though I commend anyone who wants to take a crack at it because it'll be worth the read.

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It's impossible, in my opinion, to get satisfactory results by using only theorycraft. What we can do is test DPS output for different jobs in a dummy, to get a "best case scenario" number, and then estimate an average DPS increase by comparing those numbers with what those jobs do in actual fights. We could do some 2 minute simulation runs in a dummy with a MNK, for example; then, run others while throwing a single Balance on him/her and compare the DPS increase. Then take that MNK to a fight like Ravana EX or A1S, set the parsers to give us numbers every 2 minutes (I play on PS4, but I believe this is possible), and see how they do with no cards. We can see the percentage of DPS they "lost" in relation to their dummy numbers and estimate how much more DPS they'd do with a card. It won't give us an exact number, but it's a start.

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Originally Posted by TatoRazzino

Stuff about thordan.
We're not as far behind as some people want us to be.

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Yes, the personal dps of Astro is far from Scholar. That's normal. That's ok. We get card to help us.
And your personal example is irrelevant.

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I don't know why WHM/SCH players are so afraid of ASTs doing well.

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Stop being paranoid. I am myself pro-astro.

In fact it is impossible. Only se can reliably do it from data gathered to calculate its average means. I did hours of tests worth and without buffs with my brother and get yelled down for supposedly coming up with magic numbers during the time astrologian were wanting buffs. I only reported what were my personal dps gains the two jobs parsed over not having a steady stream of balance/arrow/timed spear cards.

Using math to prove one side of the other works well but only when variables are constantly consistent which is less likely in healing compared to dps checks. 10 pages of theory craft has shown us over the course of a longer fight the white mage comes out ahead but during shorter encounters the astrologian has the advantage which seems a decent trade off. People need to get away with wanting nocturnal stance to let the astrologian be in essence a scholar. I would be for a unique shield mechanic as I have said countless times and or even nocturnal being a weaker offensive version of cleric stance but not suffer the healing penalties of cleric stance as a form of additional dps support. But in order for our utility to be buffed we cannot keep this healing power that we have right now.

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Originally Posted by NamoNanamo

Yes, the personal dps of Astro is far from Scholar. That's normal. That's ok.
And your personal example is irrelevant.

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Your remark is also irrelevant. I don't know why WHM/SCH players are so afraid of ASTs doing well.

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Originally Posted by NamoNanamo

Yes, the personal dps of Astro is far from Scholar. That's normal. That's ok.
And your personal example is irrelevant.

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Why is the astro dps far from the scholar? Our dps+cards is not bad as people would have you believe. On Burst phases it might be better then scholar since balance stacks retroactively with itleast blood for blood and rage strikes.

SCH AOE DPS is far better. Single Target they are about the same, with the asterisk AST can't keep it up. DPSing on AST runs AST out of mana in pretty short order, whereas SCH can go indefinitely. It presents a major problem in fights there the offhealer spends the first 90sec or so dpsing. You aren't totally OOM after as an AST, but your mana level is very unsafe.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

SCH AOE DPS is far better. Single Target they are about the same, with the asterisk AST can't keep it up. DPSing on AST runs AST out of mana in pretty short order, whereas SCH can go indefinitely. It presents a major problem in fights there the offhealer spends the first 90sec or so dpsing. You aren't totally OOM after as an AST, but your mana level is very unsafe.

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Its not suppose to be able to keep up with the scholar. Scholars being mana neutral during dps mode might be an issue that SE will have to deal with at a later time. No mana source should be infinite for dps purposes and not even for a scholar. My point is being able to off dps during burst phases the astrologian is in a position to be more useful then the scholar should a future fight entail such mechanics. I have an issue with an entire fight being a huge dps check but I feel that burst dps checks is a good use of mechanics that force dpsers to be able to play their job to its best. Enrage mechanics should not be the timer but healers running out of mana should be a more useful form of timer.

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Originally Posted by TatoRazzino

Stuff

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I did notice Thordan as a pretty fierce exception as well. Haven't cleared the fight yet (please don't ask why), but I can generally keep up 300+ DPS regardless if the other healer is a SCH or WHM unless chainraising is needed. Given from your example it does sound like there are a lot of differences since I got plenty of time to toss Malefic 2 in nearly every phase and you claim to only have been able to DoT at the start of phases (and I assume meteor/Sacred Cross being exceptions) and get near-similar results. Thordan is also nice enough that the you get a ridiculous amount of time to refresh your mana though.
My fear is also that Thordan-esque fights are a dime in a dozen. Wouldn't mind if all fights were of that structure really, all healers and their.. I guess playstyles? Shine in that fight pretty nicely.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Snip

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It is an issue. You play this game, not the game you wish it was. And in this game the off healer does far more dpsing than it does anything else, and often for extended durations as the main healer heals everything. If SE changes the meta, than perhaps it would be less important. But right now, it is. AST's mana issue while dpsing is a massive barrier to use it is anything other than the main healer.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

It is an issue. You play this game, not the game you wish it was. And in this game the off healer does far more dpsing than it does anything else, and often for extended durations as the main healer heals everything. If SE changes the meta, than perhaps it would be less important. But right now, it is. AST's mana issue while dpsing is a massive barrier to use it is anything other than the main healer.

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Thordan offers a big break after phase 1, when everyone has to spread to break chains and deal with towers. After the two knights, there's an even longer break that allows your MP to refresh even without Mage's Ballad/MP turret. All three healers can DPS for the entire first phase without any fear of running out of MP for the healing check that the fight requires in the other phases, so the MP management SCH has becomes irrelevant and numbers for both AST and WHM become higher; anyone with little knowledge of math can see that the combined potencies of the SCH's' DPS spells and skills is lower than AST's and WHM's - in fact, WHM has the highest burst and is only lower in numbers due to accuracy requirements for their whole toolkit. AST is lower than SCH because of MP management and the fact that SCH has three DoTs that bypass accuracy. In Thordan, however, Shadow Flare loses value because the boss moves around a lot. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that it's perfectly possible for a good AST to pass SCH in DPS if they're both allowed to DPS for the same amount of time - and that fight makes it possible. If some people in here can't do it, too bad; there are some who can. And I didn't even mentioned the cards, because that's not the topic discussed at the moment.

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Originally Posted by AzureFlare

I did notice Thordan as a pretty fierce exception as well. Haven't cleared the fight yet (please don't ask why), but I can generally keep up 300+ DPS regardless if the other healer is a SCH or WHM unless chainraising is needed. Given from your example it does sound like there are a lot of differences since I got plenty of time to toss Malefic 2 in nearly every phase and you claim to only have been able to DoT at the start of phases (and I assume meteor/Sacred Cross being exceptions) and get near-similar results. Thordan is also nice enough that the you get a ridiculous amount of time to refresh your mana though.
My fear is also that Thordan-esque fights are a dime in a dozen. Wouldn't mind if all fights were of that structure really, all healers and their.. I guess playstyles? Shine in that fight pretty nicely.

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I only applied DoTs and maybe did few Malefic IIs simply because I was main healing and I'd rather get ready for the phases by using Stoneskin on some people than adding more DPS when it's not needed. Playstyle, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

It is an issue. You play this game, not the game you wish it was. And in this game the off healer does far more dpsing than it does anything else, and often for extended durations as the main healer heals everything. If SE changes the meta, than perhaps it would be less important. But right now, it is. AST's mana issue while dpsing is a massive barrier to use it is anything other than the main healer.

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Well yeah but you just cherry picked the most forgiving MP fight in the game. Check your mana in A3 by the time the final phase starts and you've been dpsing 90% of the time before that, or even in A1 at the first drop and you have a tank to heal after you've been dpsing until the add dropped. It's not a great position MP wise to be in. Especially when the competition is versus a SCH who never has MP issues, ever.

Can it be done by a skilled player? Of course, but that's not really the issue.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

Well yeah but you just cherry picked the most forgiving MP fight in the game. Check your mana in A3 by the time the final phase starts and you've been dpsing 90% of the time before that, or even in A1 at the first drop and you have a tank to heal after you've been dpsing until the add dropped. It's not a great position MP wise to be in. Especially when the competition is versus a SCH who never has MP issues, ever.

Can it be done by a skilled player? Of course, but that's not really the issue.

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That was the whole point of the comparison in the first place: showing that it is possible to do it when the fight allows you to and that th WHM/AST combo is useful in those fights. Both WHM and AST were designed to be main healers, and bringing two main healers to a fight is only smart if the fight allows you to. So, yes, I picked a fight that allows it.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

Well yeah but you just cherry picked the most forgiving MP fight in the game. Check your mana in A3 by the time the final phase starts and you've been dpsing 90% of the time before that, or even in A1 at the first drop and you have a tank to heal after you've been dpsing until the add dropped. It's not a great position MP wise to be in. Especially when the competition is versus a SCH who never has MP issues, ever.

Can it be done by a skilled player? Of course, but that's not really the issue.

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The issue is that low HPS requirements + high DPS uptime + healer with mana-neutral DPS when given the chance to spam Energy Drain (and do a good chunk of damage if you actually care to use it during Cleric, which you should) without thought = stupid and not properly thought of by SE, whether it be the encounter or SCH itself. When it is so bonkers you can use your super mana-inefficient spells (Shadowflare, Broil, Ruin 2, Blizzard 2) like crazy instead of spending it wisely (no filler/Ruin only as filler) surely alarm bells should already ring.

There is not a single fight in the game that at this point cannot be beaten with any combo of the 3 healers or even any of the 2 healers doubled up.

However, this thread is about AST's weakness in end game. Given there are 2 healer slots in a group and AST only legitimately competes for one slot, I find it a problem. That seems to be the whole reason for the 2 stances, which they just didn't implement Noct well to complete for the offslot with SCH.

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Originally Posted by AzureFlare

The issue is that low HPS requirements + high DPS uptime + healer with mana-neutral DPS when given the chance to spam Energy Drain (and do a good chunk of damage if you actually care to use it during Cleric, which you should) without thought = stupid and not properly thought of by SE, whether it be the encounter or SCH itself. When it is so bonkers you can use your super mana-inefficient spells (Shadowflare, Broil, Ruin 2, Blizzard 2) like crazy instead of spending it wisely (no filler/Ruin only as filler) surely alarm bells should already ring.

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I dunno I don't really think that's the issue - that's just the way the game is. So given the game as they made it, all 3 healer combos should be just as viable in difficult content, and WHM/AST is clearly below the level of AST/SCH or WHM/SCH.

Would I mind if they increased the hps requirements of encounters in the future? Not at all. I think having the variety and testing multifaceted healer skill would be great. In one fight have super crazy dps checks like they have now where tanks and healers are squeezing out every ounce of dps they can while staying alive - and the move to the next encounter where there so so much damage that the death risk comes from healers running out of mana from only healing. But thats a totally different discussion than what are AST's deficiencies in the game now as it is.

And what about WHM? Why can't they be in the offslot? Why shouldn't SCH be able to be in the mainslot? Let's at least make it fair to the point that all 3 jobs are both offslot/mainslot worthy without stupidly big differences. I was under the impression that Nocturnal exists as to fit the shields+regens combo, not to fit the bulk healer+hybrid DPS combo. Or do we really want to go back to the point where tons of people were complaining that 'AST gets to fulfill both gg y level SCH/WHM pfft'.
Right now, you could literally fit that same shoe on WHM: they only fit one slot. SCH's off the best being able to fit either but they are so good in the offslot you'd be branded for putting an AST/WHM on it instead, unless you go SCH+SCH. Honestly, calling nocturnal AST's lacking DPS capabilities compared to SCH is ignoring the elephant in the room when a single CD for MP being stronger than either of the two other healers' CDs combined is merely the tip of the iceberg.

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Originally Posted by Sidra

It is an issue. You play this game, not the game you wish it was. And in this game the off healer does far more dpsing than it does anything else, and often for extended durations as the main healer heals everything. If SE changes the meta, than perhaps it would be less important. But right now, it is. AST's mana issue while dpsing is a massive barrier to use it is anything other than the main healer.

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Fail to mention the cards that buff dps of other jobs mana free did we?

It's an Astrologian thread on a healer forum, I assume everyone here knows about the cards. Their existence and the benefit they provide does not make them superior to a SCH in the offhealer slot. Why would I have needed to mention them?

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Originally Posted by Sidra

It's an Astrologian thread on a healer forum, I assume everyone here knows about the cards. Their existence and the benefit they provide does not make them superior to a SCH in the offhealer slot. Why would I have needed to mention them?

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Maybe we should let this thread die. Clearly I am wasting my 10 posts a day on incoherent posts from someone who ignores comments from people who gives him a scenario which he ignores when it goes against his arguement. Let alone how he manages to contradict himself. He is only going to talk about what is real right now and not what if scenarios then goes off and speaks that certain fights do not count because it does not fit his narrow definition where the astro fails. Thordan Extreme is a high end form of content right now as much as As3-As4.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

I did hours of tests worth and without buffs with my brother and get yelled down for supposedly coming up with magic numbers during the time astrologian were wanting buffs.

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Vlady, I hate to beat a dead horse but maybe I can talk some sense now that the animosity has died down and it's easier to read one post then a million at once.

The reason why yourself and your brother was yelled down was because your numbers are magical. Let's take your example stating you increased a DRGs DPS by 800. An 800 DPS increase is rather absurd when you consider Balance adds 10% additional damage to a DPS and in order for a DPS to get this 800 DPS increase, they would need to be doing 8,000 DPS (10% of 8,000 DPS is 800 DPS).

Semantics is important when discussing math and theorycraft. If you told us the DRG in question had an increase of 800 damage (not DPS), it would be more believable. 800 additional damage divided by (pre-AST-buff duration of) 15s of Balance leads to a DPS increase of approximately 53.3. This value feels much more reasonable in a time period when players were still learning their rotations and gearing up for content at the beginning of HW.

Clarity is important when discussing these sort of variables in a theoretical environment. It's also why I take Tato's theorycraft earlier in the thread about increasing BLM GCDs via Arrow with a grain of salt because there's no way to quantify the amount of additional damage they're actually doing despite getting additional GCDs. BLMs are still mostly constrained to how quickly they can regenerate MP which is tied to Umbral Ice which is also tied to server ticks (similar to how DoTs are constrained to server ticks as well). They aren't as limited as SMNs but still have that small gap where they won't be able to make much use of Arrow. Also, Tato was comparing the GCD reduction on a single player versus a GCD reduction to the raid from Selene over the course of the same which again is another variable difficult to quantify because raid composition is different from group to group. It's just important to point out because that BLM w/ Arrow needs to contribute more DPS than the raid DPS added by having that many GCDs go off.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to point out and can see how it might avoid conflicts later down the line.

AST QoL Suggestions
- Make it so Shuffle doesn't draw the same card.
- Nocturnal Sect. It's not bad but there are a few QoL stuff that could be done. Shyluv's suggestion of having CO increase the amount on the shields is a good example, I might even suggest having TD do the same thing as well. Another suggestion maybe to compensate for the 5% attack speed lose by having it increase our damage by a certain amount.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Vlady, I hate to beat a dead horse but maybe I can talk some sense now that the animosity has died down and it's easier to read one post then a million at once.

The reason why yourself and your brother was yelled down was because your numbers are magical. Let's take your example stating you increased a DRGs DPS by 800. An 800 DPS increase is rather absurd when you consider Balance adds 10% additional damage to a DPS and in order for a DPS to get this 800 DPS increase, they would need to be doing 8,000 DPS (10% of 8,000 DPS is 800 DPS).

Semantics is important when discussing math and theorycraft. If you told us the DRG in question had an increase of 800 damage (not DPS), it would be more believable. 800 additional damage divided by (pre-AST-buff duration of) 15s of Balance leads to a DPS increase of approximately 53.3. This value feels much more reasonable in a time period when players were still learning their rotations and gearing up for content at the beginning of HW.

Clarity is important when discussing these sort of variables in a theoretical environment. It's also why I take Tato's theorycraft earlier in the thread about increasing BLM GCDs via Arrow with a grain of salt because there's no way to quantify the amount of additional damage they're actually doing despite getting additional GCDs. BLMs are still mostly constrained to how quickly they can regenerate MP which is tied to Umbral Ice which is also tied to server ticks (similar to how DoTs are constrained to server ticks as well). They aren't as limited as SMNs but still have that small gap where they won't be able to make much use of Arrow. Also, Tato was comparing the GCD reduction on a single player versus a GCD reduction to the raid from Selene over the course of the same which again is another variable difficult to quantify because raid composition is different from group to group. It's just important to point out because that BLM w/ Arrow needs to contribute more DPS than the raid DPS added by having that many GCDs go off.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to point out and can see how it might avoid conflicts later down the line.

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I'll add to that the fact that having to dodge lowers how effective the Arrow card is. The results of comparing Arrow to Selene were not to be taken as a final argument. I honestly believe that a BLM can add more DPS in that many GCDs than the group wold simply because they're the job that benefits the most from attack speed due to resource refresh. My calculation could have been adjusted in several ways, and I could argue that I could throw those balances around the party and add those GCDs. Anyway, theorycraft is just theory and can only show ideal situations. Fights change that a lot.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

... only when variables are constantly consistent ...

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http://reactiongif.org/wp-content/up...atural-GIF.gif

This is the main weakness of ast !!!

Being compaired to whm or sch..... Every damn post i see on this damn forum is..

Ast X need to be like Y skill of whm
Or
Ast X need to be like Y skill of sch

THIS IS THE PROBLEM....

Wish players stop doing this and actually come up ideas to make as have its own identity , i mean did we all bitched about AST being like whm/sch just with added card mechanics? .... Yet when people come up with ideas.... They always make it similar to sch or whm :(

AND THATS THE PROBLEM

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Vlady, I hate to beat a dead horse but maybe I can talk some sense now that the animosity has died down and it's easier to read one post then a million at once.

The reason why yourself and your brother was yelled down was because your numbers are magical. Let's take your example stating you increased a DRGs DPS by 800. An 800 DPS increase is rather absurd when you consider Balance adds 10% additional damage to a DPS and in order for a DPS to get this 800 DPS increase, they would need to be doing 8,000 DPS (10% of 8,000 DPS is 800 DPS).

Semantics is important when discussing math and theorycraft. If you told us the DRG in question had an increase of 800 damage (not DPS), it would be more believable. 800 additional damage divided by (pre-AST-buff duration of) 15s of Balance leads to a DPS increase of approximately 53.3. This value feels much more reasonable in a time period when players were still learning their rotations and gearing up for content at the beginning of HW.

Clarity is important when discussing these sort of variables in a theoretical environment. It's also why I take Tato's theorycraft earlier in the thread about increasing BLM GCDs via Arrow with a grain of salt because there's no way to quantify the amount of additional damage they're actually doing despite getting additional GCDs. BLMs are still mostly constrained to how quickly they can regenerate MP which is tied to Umbral Ice which is also tied to server ticks (similar to how DoTs are constrained to server ticks as well). They aren't as limited as SMNs but still have that small gap where they won't be able to make much use of Arrow. Also, Tato was comparing the GCD reduction on a single player versus a GCD reduction to the raid from Selene over the course of the same which again is another variable difficult to quantify because raid composition is different from group to group. It's just important to point out because that BLM w/ Arrow needs to contribute more DPS than the raid DPS added by having that many GCDs go off.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to point out and can see how it might avoid conflicts later down the line.

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I am not arguing the issue that a dragoon burst going from 1600 to near 2400 might not be taken seriously but the flames of hell falls down upon me by the entire forum for standing for the parses I made against the dummies using balance at the time he burned his cooldowns but yet you calculating 0% overheal is a oops that no one seemed to have mind in your statistics. It was quite fun having people whisper me nightly cussing me out when I have never met them before but I digress. The astrologian thread #30 per week is getting old. When the tip starts to go back from healthy debate to absurdity and silliness then yes I will come out to put things back into perspective.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

I am not arguing the issue that a dragoon burst going from 1600 to near 2400 might not be taken seriously but the flames of hell falls down upon me by the entire forum for standing for the parses I made against the dummies using balance at the time he burned his cooldowns but yet you calculating 0% overheal is a oops that no one seemed to have mind in your statistics. It was quite fun having people whisper me nightly cussing me out when I have never met them before but I digress. The astrologian thread #30 per week is getting old. When the tip starts to go back from healthy debate to absurdity and silliness then yes I will come out to put things back into perspective.

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There are two differences between you and I in that respect:

1. I'm willing to put my thoughts on the table and illustrate them for everyone to dissect
2. I'm willing to own up to my own mistakes once I see the fatal flaw in my argument

Vlady, during the time you were being badgered, you never produced any proof of your results or the methodology of your testing for others to examine. Instead you stated something as though it were fact and even though your results were easy to debunk just on simple math alone. Despite this glaring contradiction, you were stubbornly adamant about your results. When questioned, you would never present a counter argument - instead opting to bulldog your way into other aspects of the discussion while never answering the questions presented to you.

If you had been more honest with your testing and humble with your attitude, you could've avoided much of the negativity that was pressed towards you.

While I don't condone the juvenile and asinine behavior some posters / in game players may have directed towards you, you certainly didn't do yourself any favours by presenting yourself in the way you did.

Just some food for thought and my two cents. Take from this what you will. I'm not here to try to take a chunk out of you, I'm just here to hopefully make you see some reason into why ire is directed to you in the way it is.

I understand you try the approach few on the forums do which is quality over quantity posts. Most of your points are concise and professional. I understand I am human and do not know everything and yes I have been proven wrong and will be on countless times but still I only posted my results and how I came to those results. Had things not gotten ugly I would have acted in a more suitable manner. I will apologize now to you ghislain. I think you are a good choice for the forums.

I just do not want one job to get buffs r that were not needed. I still do not think the astro should have gotten potency buffs.