How to Dragoon per Second: A DPS Paradigm

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

Oh, he has me beat there for sure (I know who I'm talking with), but that's not formal enough a proof to convince me ;)

It's impressive enough with a death, though.

Next week I get to see what I do with i208 level strength. ((I'm looking forward to it!))

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I need to buy eso pants so I don't got 700 acc lol but being 208 for sure makes you feel strong :)

You can filter the fights to the first 3m5 seconds if you want a snapshot of the everything pre add phase. Unless you can provide a parse of someone using doomspike in phase 1 since there's no one to compare to.

RNG in add phase can also really kill your overall numbers as well especially when your group has way too much dps as it is in that phase. With bad tethers and magnets and high party dps you can have really bad uptime in that phase.

seriously, RIP DERVY, such a shame SE, such a shame...

Something interesting someone was throwing around the other day is the idea of dropping Phlebotomize from the rotation altogether. With a 2.4 or lower gcd, you could get 4 gsk per minute - the timing is really tight at 2.4, but doable. I just ran numbers on it and it's only ~3 pps loss (not completely accurate, but this is like less than a 2% drop just counting base rotation + GSK damage) assuming you maintain the 4 gsk per minute. The main benefit, though, is that your TP per GCD drops from 64 to 61, significantly curbing the spending of resources. This could be really useful to employ during periods of extended uptime where TP concerns are actually significant.

It probably has no place in the CURRENT meta, but it might be something to keep our eyes on going forward. If someone could back me up on it being such a small loss to drop Phleb, that'd be cool. What I did seems sound. I used a formula Dervy gave me a while back and the solution to reverse engineer the 1.5s delay on Chaos Thrust to plug back in and calculate dot potency, so it might not be accurate in that regard.

Or actually... might be worthwhile to employ this in the opening phase of A3s? Dropping Phleb instead of a 4th hit and then re-upping it once jigglebutt comes back as a hand? I'll have to think on that...


///EDIT: A2S. According to this, using HT>CT>CT is more pps than HT>CT>P>CT by a LONG shot. AND you can pick up 4 gsk per minute AND it's less TP consumption - I mean it's probably common sense. I dunno, I drive a gobwalker! But food for thought. Phlebotomize might be worthless in A2S.

HT > CT > CT On A2S here we go!

Oh wait... I'm the driver ;_;

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Originally Posted by JackFross

I absolutely hate the delay that's inherent in turning around to use Elusive Jump; the only spot in current raids (that I've done so far) where I use it... I'm on 0.5 in A1S so I elusive back to it after my first B4B combo on the not-0.5, and I use it after blowing up my first gobtank in A2S to get back to the other tanks and hop in before Wave 7 so I can squeeze in as much damage as possible on the widow.

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The thing is, while I absolutely agree it's rather annoying having to position oneself for elusive, a useless skill is one that's never going to be used. For example, feint is pretty much useless as no one ever discusses using feint in many situations. Elusive is a free way to negate the effects of a knockback without having to sacrifice a cd or two that could have potentially contributed more dps. Rather than wait for a knockback to use DFD or Spineshatter, use them immediately and let elusive take care of that job. I don't think it's entirely infeasible if practiced a bit, and holding down the V key switches your camera to viewing behind you so you could just hold down V then spin the camera around until the boss is on screen and use that to aim your backflip. That's my opinion at least, if a skill can do damage it should be used as soon as it's available so that it can be used again when it comes off cd. An ability sitting there on the bar not being used once for the whole fight could maybe be utilized in some way, if it's not then it's useless.

Hey im running this setup atm:
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RMGI

Was before I checked the guide, no more eso for me this week.

Started raiding savage a week ago.

I try to get the 590 SKS now for the rotation, currently at 535.

I have the option to exchange my ilvl 200 bracelt for the 190 one, which puts me at
571 SKS which makes me lose about 3 strength, 39 accuracy and 3 crit. Or stick with the ilvl200 bracelet and exchange my ilvl200 chest piece for the 190 one which gives me 589 sks and +17 crit in exchange for losing 7 strength and 86 accuracy. Which puts me at a total of 595 accuracy with bufffood.

SO which one should I chose, or should i keep my current setup with the 535 sks.

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Originally Posted by RexMax

SO which one should I chose, or should i keep my current setup with the 535 sks.

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To me it looks like you have 2 options really. Get eso head piece to drop acc and raise skill speed. And/or get eso ring and neck.

There's not a huge difference if you want to wear 190 wrist for that skill speed until you get a few Gordian accessories or can afford to upgrade to another eso piece. Your left side is fine for A1 and A2. Head is a good buy, though, since it doesn't drop until a3..


Also, I went from 605 skill speed to 681 (2.40 to 2.37 gcd).. It didn't do much for my damage except making it more difficult to double weave in the opener >.< Other than that it didn't mess up BotD timing or really give me any more leeway on the timer (sometimes it actually felt like I lost some time but it could've been due to other things)

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Originally Posted by JackFross

Something interesting someone was throwing around the other day is the idea of dropping Phlebotomize from the rotation altogether. With a 2.4 or lower gcd, you could get 4 gsk per minute - the timing is really tight at 2.4, but doable. I just ran numbers on it and it's only ~3 pps loss (not completely accurate, but this is like less than a 2% drop just counting base rotation + GSK damage) assuming you maintain the 4 gsk per minute. The main benefit, though, is that your TP per GCD drops from 64 to 61, significantly curbing the spending of resources. This could be really useful to employ during periods of extended uptime where TP concerns are actually significant.

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I do that in dungeons to get what seems like an extra GK off, but haven't tried it anywhere else really. Driving in A2 so probably won't get a chance to try it anywhere else lol

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Originally Posted by RexMax

SO which one should I chose, or should i keep my current setup with the 535 sks.

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you can also eat the Deep-fried Okeanis for an extra SkS boost, alongisde the helmet upgrade only. that would put you on 600 SkS, and since you started savage a week ago(i'm assuming you're still in A1), you will have enough acc for the fight too.

I've seen a lot of people talking about holding gap closers for the wash away on A3S. I've found the only one to save elusive on the pull for the second wash away (I normally backflip in at pulls). In the opener if you use SSD before DFD, SSD will be back up for the first wash away, leaving zero down time and extra opening burst. Also PS and Jump should be back up right as wash away is happening so use that first, get one GCD, then SSD.

Apologies if this is already known.

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

I died at the end too :( My issue with DS has nothing to do with the double dotting, it's botd timers, I get 4-5 lasers on double hands, how many do you get? In sitting at 1450-75 going into adds with no DS.

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I think Hak is playing a different game than the rest of us lol

Seriously, tho, I can't figure out how to get that many lasers off. May have a bit to do with how our tanks position them, I do too much running around I think. They use tempered/holmgang for second wash away, hold them in the middle (which is enough time to IDC one of them) then drag apart for closed fist, so I follow the MT, once parting casts they converge back in the middle about the time Digi/Equal cast, so I only have time to start hitting the higher one. I asked to see if they can separate them a bit more because GK will hit both if I use it there, but they weren't able to move them enough for it not to clip the other one. From the second wash away to Equal is done I get 1 GK (during parting), with an opportunity for one or 2 more at most during Equal if I disregarded the incidental damage.

Whiskey, Make the tanks pull them away first, force a hand clap then keep them stacked until the next change which will be fist. Always consistent, most uptime for melees and the most optimal way to get them stacked for long periods. I get 3 laser before hand form, 1 laser during that next b4b, then 4-5 on double hands, the 5th one really depends on how my rotation goes after the Equal and if I dont screw up my elusive jump, sometimes I don't get the 5th one.

@Hak that's pretty impressive how you're pulling off 5 lasers during double hand phase. I'm not sure I understand correctly, but by 5 you mean 5 all throughout the double hand phase right? So you only get 2/3 during the burn phase? Because I reckon that would be totally impossible to pull of 5 during burn phase lol

Thanks, Hak. We got a new tank this week and that was his suggested strat but the other tank was used to this way so that's what we did. It makes more sense to force the clap instead of the fist, and if this tank sticks around next week he'll be on DRK instead and we'll have to do it that way regardless I think (they don't have a knockback cd?).

Orlandeu- It didn't seem like you could get that many at first glance, but it's ~120 second phase? Theoretical max should be 5 or 6. Really amazing stuff there xD

@whiskey at first I thought that 5 laser thing was only during burn phase.

Its from the time the first hand clap is forced, throughout the rest of that phase.

lolol 5 geirskoguls a minute at high skill speeds by dropping PH mostly

i wonder if this even has any use beyond novelty

video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujo-9Qvm82U

Is that in response to me? Because I don't drop PH.

nah, not really related, just experimented with the idea jack fross brought up a page ago and made a video. was going to edit in a link after it uploaded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujo-9Qvm82U

Cool let me check this out.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Thanks, Hak. We got a new tank this week and that was his suggested strat but the other tank was used to this way so that's what we did. It makes more sense to force the clap instead of the fist, and if this tank sticks around next week he'll be on DRK instead and we'll have to do it that way regardless I think (they don't have a knockback cd?).

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DRK can use Plunge for nearly the same effect. Could be up for both if they do it right. Right now we've just had WAR OT Holmgang the first one, the second one we just go splat wherever.

Now that we've got some room to mess around, I might bring up the forced mechanics next week because we've just been assuming they're random (no reason to believe otherwise haha).

Yeah forcing ✋ first then ✊ is the best imo.

Science™ has proven that skill matters more than gear.
[Arm of the Father - Normal Mode with df]

i200 - 1081 [Antiquated Brionac]
i181 - 852 [Iwa Toshi-Kai]

i195-ish drg I ran with the other day - 687 [Antiquated Brionac]
i180-ish drg, same thing - 710 [Iwa Toshi-Kai]

Science wins the day.

Hey everyone =).

Just wondering....according to Mr.Happy translation video, they found a way to fix mudra lag. I was wondering if this "fix" will be applied to all oGCD skills.....so we can make double-weaving our cds easier. I live on Brazil and im usually around 120 ping. I feel like i'm losing some BotD seconds due to lag(no i dont use macros). I've been training the advanced rotation of this topic and i'm currently on A3S(no attempts yet). I dont think i'm screwing up rotation-wise, but my BotD sometimes falls off due server lag.
As a matter of opinion. Should i stack more SkS than 2.39? i'm currently on 2.4(2.39 with food) but will this small extra gap in SkS will help to compensate the lag?(Maybe 2.38 or 2.37). I also alredy use all of the network fixes.

If anyone could share an opinion on this, that would really help me alot =).

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Thendiel

Alexander Floor 4 Savage

There is currently some disagreement over which set is BiS. Below are three strong contenders:
Dervy's "balanced" 604 SS set: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RLTG
Aiurily's low-SS set: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RL7Z
Jack's 650 SS set: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/RL7Z

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Also another thing to note, Aiurily's set and Jack's set have the same link on them =)

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Originally Posted by Shyngo

Also another thing to note, Aiurily's set and Jack's set have the same link on them =)

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Dangit. Thanks for pointing that out. Fixed.

For the record, here is what Dervy does in the opening minutes of A3S. I adopted his approach the other night and noticed a definite DPS improvement. He holds off on potion use until Equilibrium, though, which of course won't be necessary for every group (depending on gear, comfort level with that phase, etc.).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOvEPTPVyYY

I'll make a clip of my raid on tuesday, show you guys what I do.

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

Yeah forcing ✋ first then ✊ is the best imo.

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Nice hand symbols there lol. I filled in for another group that did the clap first, it went well, tried to take that strat back to my static, wiped once and they wanted to go back ._. Oh well, still making progress so I guess that's what matters most

I'm of the opinion that either method works pretty well. It's all a matter of how comfortable your tanks are with the certain mechanics. Some tanks don't like the RNG inherent in hand > fist. I ran with a group yesterday who were just winging it - WAR Holmgangs, PLD Tempered Wills - PLD pulls his to the edge with TW and WAR stays mid until the mechanic is decided, then they adjust. Even after I suggested baiting hand, the PLD wanted to TW it and move accordingly, letting the WAR do RNG sliding and then he just pulls opposite. Worked well, cut out some of the RNG, saw it hand every time.

The problem with baiting hand is that the timing and positioning on the high five is REALLY REALLY tight. It'll take a few tries to get it down. If your group already smoothly clears that part doing fist > fist, keep doing fist > fist. Clearing is more important than maximum dps. No one should argue that. You really don't want to set your static back a phase because you're worried about ideal strategies when the one you're doing is already working just fine. My static tried that back in T9 - they wanted to swap to 2 tanks when we made it to final phase to ease up on healing. We subsequently regressed back to Golem phase for the three attempts before they admitted we who said it was dumb were right and just swapped back to 1 tank.


Also, man, Scholar is the most vital thing in A3S for me. The group I ran with had WHM/AST, my static is WHM/SCH. I felt the lack of Selene. Really really hard. The way I do first phase is:

HT>[B4B]>ID>[IR]>Dis>[BotD]>CT>[Leg+PS]>4th>{stack for Protean Wave if FaC}[Jump]>Phleb>[DfD]{move to PW position}>TT>[SSD]>VT>[Life+GSK]>FT>4th
HT>ID>Dis>[Leg]>CT>4th>[GSK]>Phleb>{Move to flank}TT>VT>[Jump]{dodge sluice puddle}>FT>4th>HT>ID>[GSK+Leg]>ID>ID> {phase}

That only works with Selene. When I ran without Selene, my second Jump came a fraction of a second too late so I had to hold it for a GCD to not get killed by sluice puddles if one spawned under me. That said, I'm likely going to start ending it with ID>[GSK+Leg]>Dis and leading hands with CT, since I do consistently get that third ID before phase when running with my static.

Basically, Selene is bae. I once said someone else was too slow because their second Jump wasn't coming back in time to use it just before puddles. Then I ran without Selene. Now I understand. I since apologized for being a jerk.


Also, absolutely nothing in the world feels better than canceling the second Wash Away with Jump. I hit it once yesterday just as the knockback started; I didn't even move from beside the boss. Usually I jump the gun. It skips the animation but applies the damage as I get washed away.

Yea our war was still used to HG'ing the second wash so it didn't work out because he was rooted instead of moving. It just takes adjustments. Got up to 3 lasers with double hands so that's a nice improvement. I just said eff it and they both got GK during equal lol

You shouldn't have to hold GSK or DFD during Equal, nor should your SMN feel obligated to hold Deathflare or your MNK Elixir Field/Drive (I never remember which word it is). Especially at this gear level, the check shouldn't be tight enough to cause an incidental GSK/DFD/DF/Elixir crit on the wrong one to break your burn.

Theoretically, we shouldn't even feel pressured to hold Battle Litany or Blood for Blood for it, but I still do both of those, so meh.

Thank you very much for the guide.
I just recently returned to dragoon after leveling my Black Mage, Bard, Nin, PLD, Sch and smn to 60 and i am lost on my drg, totally forgot my rotation, lol

In A3S, I only ever hold Spineshatter for if I fail a wash-away cancel with jump and DFD to hit on 2 mobs. Recently I've been as high as 1425 DPS right after hand phase, normally around 1375-1400. I get 9 GSKs off once hand phase is done, the 9th is usually just before the hands go invulnerable. I wish I could see my numbers if my group ran a MCH and/or NIN or my SCH used Selene.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

stuff

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Yea whenever I run something without a sch it feels like slow motion lol

I wanted to move BotD up since I'm not using potion in opener, but that kinda messes with when it comes off CD after transition doesn't it? I only get 2 GK in first phase, but moving it up would allow for 3 as you've spelled out there.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I wanted to move BotD up since I'm not using potion in opener, but that kinda messes with when it comes off CD after transition doesn't it? I only get 2 GK in first phase, but moving it up would allow for 3 as you've spelled out there.

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Well in second phase (before tonight, since I'll be doing something a bit different) I would usually:

>Dis>CT>[IR]>HT>[PS+Leg]>VT>[Life+BotD]>FT>{try to cancel with:}[Jump]>{if failed:}[SSD]>4th>Phleb>[GSK]>ID>Dis>CT>4th>HT>TT>VT>FT>4th>{try to cheese second Wash Away with Jump}

There's other stuff in there after the SSD, but I forget exactly with oGCDs are there and when I hit them; B4B comes back sometime there, but I hold it. I also use SSD in that following combo set if I missed the Jump cancel. Pretty sure there's a Leg Sweep, and I usually burn another GSK right before that last 4th hit sometime. If Jump fails to cancel, I Elusive back to mid and chase the hand at the middle to the edge with a CT combo + GSK3 as they re-stack, re-up BotD and you should be able to burn through 2-3 GSK before phase if you do it right, at least 2 of them on the stacked hands.

In short, it makes it a bit awkward in that you skip a 4th hit, yeah, but it's a dps gain in the long run, since the runoff from the phase transition means you'll only get 2 GSK in that first minute if you DON'T do it that way, and +200 free potency I'm fairly sure is gonna be better than keeping the full rotation and having to Full Thrust *after* the knockback which just makes things a bit more awkward, in my experience (since I used to do it that way). Also note BotD will still be back up before your Jump hits, so it won't make too big a difference.

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Originally Posted by JackFross

You shouldn't have to hold GSK or DFD during Equal, nor should your SMN feel obligated to hold Deathflare or your MNK Elixir Field/Drive (I never remember which word it is). Especially at this gear level, the check shouldn't be tight enough to cause an incidental GSK/DFD/DF/Elixir crit on the wrong one to break your burn.

Theoretically, we shouldn't even feel pressured to hold Battle Litany or Blood for Blood for it, but I still do both of those, so meh.

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You're absolutely right, but id suggest doing it because if the digititis pass gets messed up you'll probably need those CDs.

I've done it with 1 dps debuffed, but its definitely tight enough for those things to make a difference.

Feels like a wash, really. Extra GK vs extra 4th

I'm still saving my B4B for concentration. We have been using melee lb as well, so I pop B4B and pot there to help push. This coming week we going to stop using LB since we are getting to 3% difference with it.

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Originally Posted by Scum

You're absolutely right, but id suggest doing it because if the digititis pass gets messed up you'll probably need those CDs.

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The issue wasn't that so much as sometimes there would be dots on the one that didn't need to be dps, so all those aoe moves in addition to the dots were doing too much damage to the off hand. The SMN and I changed up our rotations a bit so dot's fall off by concentration, with that we are able to use the incidental aoe without worrying

bfb for concentration makes more sense for the fight overall

... bfb on cd makes more sense for getting bigger parse numbers :^) (bfb asap, then once in add phase, and save the next for last phase)