Buff Bards or Riot

Post #112 really does sum up how most of us are feeling.

We are NOT wanting to be top dps, we never were - but we had reasons before as to why our dps was so low, we had more to offer... now the game has evolved while bard has not.

Patch is comming : THANK YOU YOSHI-P

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen..._bards_minuet/

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Originally Posted by Minfillia

Patch is comming : THANK YOU YOSHI-P

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen..._bards_minuet/

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make it easier to switch between stances,

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Great ... stance dancing .... joy. Seriously, just let us chain cast, bring back auto-attack (or at least half it rather than remove) and we should be fine. If not, go from there!

/sigh I cant wait for another Archery class already (fat chance considering MCH just came out). We look like clowns half the time and punished for filling a role that doesnt even exist (which other classes have their own flavors of). At this point ill even take a pet class like Ranger just to get away from this mess ... and I hate pets!

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

lol really dont know why people are Q.Qing nothin wrong to the changes with bard imo.. every1 expects to be legolas these days?? run all around the place n still shoot some1 between the eyes?? the changes to bard now is actually is more like an archer than what it was b4

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They are complaing because, the skill makes bards have to use a entirely diffrent playstyle, nevermind the fact the stance even with all the skills at 60, is barely is better than just not using it at all, insted all it does is turn us into a gimped to hell black mage wannabe. Now I will admit if you could autoattack with Wanderers on, I'd let the other stuff slide, but as it is the dps loss is far to big atm with the skill in its current state. All other dps get nice useful stuff, why was bard shafted so damned hard on the 52-60 skills? Its made me wanna just quit the game entirely because other than a pld, I got nothing else close to do the new content.

I have to say that when I heard we would be charging our attacks I envisioned the way archers in TERA charge up their attacks to make them more powerful by keeping the button pressed down til either it hits its max potency or you decide you don't need that much power in the shot, not being forced into a caster role. I have to say that TERA's archer is far superior now. When they buffed archer and a few other classes in that game while I played, they BUFFED them, they didn't say well you get this buff but you have to be in this role now. They made the job more viable by making them hit harder which pleased the player base 100%. This is what SE should do. Not piss us off by doing what they have done. The devs for TERA never nerfed to buff or gave restrictions, dps were free to play the style they liked and still do great dps numbers.

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

lol really dont know why people are Q.Qing nothin wrong to the changes with bard imo.. every1 expects to be legolas these days?? run all around the place n still shoot some1 between the eyes?? the changes to bard now is actually is more like an archer than what it was b4

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Not really. Archers are always mobile and OP in their own right.

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

yet 95% of people complainin about how bard is destroyed now are complaining about not being able to attack like used to while moving lolz

just to use an example some1 in the FC im in ranted and whined for good hour yesterday about how bard is utterly destroyed n not worth playing cause cant attack while moving .. wanna know the funny side of it?? his/her bard was level 51 so how would he/she know??

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Perhaps they saw lvl 60 bards in action and saw that would be them soon enough?

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

WM isnt even my favourite new bard skill.. sidewinder for the win lol that can pull off massive numbers biggest crit ive done was 3200 lol

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Just wait til u see 5500+ on a sidewinder crit.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

The simple fact that parties were stacking bards to rotate their songs back in 2.0 shows that the nerfs to BRD were very much needed. Other jobs have utility, yes, but none as incredibly potent as BRD and MCH have. You can argue about it as much as you like but it doesn't change the facts; we've not seen parties stacking other jobs for their utility as we saw with BRDs.

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Actually if you want to talk job stacking, we stacked lancers in 1.0 for Ifrit when it first came out and you had to have Sentinel to survive. Then archer for Moogle, then blm for Garuda. In fact, for most things til the end of 1.0, the job stacked was blm. 2 brds isn't stacking imo. Making all the dps 1 job type is.

I wonder how many ppl didn't even bother doing the new bard job quests.

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Originally Posted by KyteStones

Here's the problem with these threads..you people (bards) are always jumping around running around shooting your arrows and never sitting still. This annoys me. You'd never see an archer do that (fantasy game or not). I think this is a good thing having your asses planted to the ground in order to fire your arrows efficiently instead of jumping around like you're all on PCP. If you don't like the move, don't use it.

You think I use all of my BLM spells? Like I cast freeze ever anymore. Oh wait, Lethargy? Useful on the slime in Syracus Tower and that's only to delay the slime long enough to kill. Apocostacsis? Yeah... MAYBE used once. It doesn't do that much for me to worry about.

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Actually in TERA all dps jobs are equally mobile so you saw every dps running around dps'ing on the fly so don't go play that game if moving dps annoys you.:P

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Originally Posted by Edellis

^ Yeah

Square is just going to have to bite the bullet, and decide to phase out the old 2.0 playstyle.

They need to either buff minuet or lower the implied reliance on it and buff them both. It takes nearly until Lv56 for Wanderer's Minuet to compensate for loss of AA's in the old style of gameplay. That alone is why their DPS is faltering behind. The other classes are taking strides forward, while BRD is just dancing around itself.

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The 2.0 playstyle is precisely the big attraction to bard, so they can swallow the whole cartridge and keep the 2.0 playstyle in play.

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Originally Posted by Yoruichi4478

Just wait til u see 5500+ on a sidewinder crit.

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Crit'd a Sidewinder in Ravana today for 7k+

It was glorious.

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Originally Posted by FaileExperiment

What if WM was changed to not stop auto-attacks?

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You are still faced with the issue of being forced into a caster roll which is not what you chose to play though.

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Originally Posted by RazeLandale

WM is better undertuned then overtuned. Let's people play the style they prefer. I don't know if there's general dps problems, but if there are you can fix those elsewhere.

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They also changed Barrage so it's a mere shell of its former glory.

I don't know why, but this makes me think of Ley Lines for BLM (it lowers cast time, but have to stand in the middle of it until it disappears). (the BRD songs that keep you in one spot)

After a while that spell became pointless to use (especially with bosses that AOE all over the place...and you need to move to either avoid the damage or at least reduce damage from).

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Originally Posted by Cakekizy

I wonder how many ppl didn't even bother doing the new bard job quests.

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If they want sidewinder they will have to do all of them.

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Originally Posted by Xellos2099

Well, the issue have been expended to PF as well. Tonight I try to find some Bismarck clear pt and some of them exclude bard from the pf. I know I know, it is their party they can set the rule but it is a bad trend. And the topic of dps come up. Bard do not expect to be on par with the melee but melee expect Bard/mch to be on par with their damage. For example, on Bismarck EX, if the party fail dps check, they will want kick the lowest dps, and who do you think it is the lowest dps atm? Bard and Mch.

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This is a disturbing trend to hear about. Bard is my only lvl 60 and I was lvling mch but I hear it's in the same boat as brd and I hate being a caster so I feel sol on a job choice for pf if that is the trend.

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Originally Posted by Solaria_Luna

I don't know why, but this makes me think of Ley Lines for BLM (it lowers cast time, but have to stand in the middle of it until it disappears). (the BRD songs that keep you in one spot)

After a while that spell became pointless to use (especially with bosses that AOE all over the place...and you need to move to either avoid the damage or at least reduce damage from).

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WoW has the same thing with Rune of Power. Stand in or really close to it for a buff.

Except that they let you drop I think it's two of them? And you don't have to be exactly on top of it. For this exact reason. Having to move.

I just had a horrifying thought. Imagine what it's like for someone (new or veteran) who doesn't visit forums or read patch notes, when they pick up archer for the first time. They level it a few levels, enjoy it and decide to keep going. After dozens of hours, at level 52 they find out that they are no longer the mobile ranger they started as >_<

There really isn't another class that has to suffer that magnitude of a change so late in the leveling process.

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Originally Posted by Yoruichi4478

Actually in TERA all dps jobs are equally mobile so you saw every dps running around dps'ing on the fly so don't go play that game if moving dps annoys you.:P

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except for Sorcerer...i had to stand still for like 6 years to get a fireblast off.

But oh, how satisfying a spell it was...

I got my Bard to 60, played around with it, and it's currently in full Law gear with a few upgraded. I lol at the damage comparison when parsing with other DPS classes. I don't ever expect BRDs to be equal to other DPS classes, but we are so low on the totem pole that when I pair up with another BRD just for Daily Expert, I cringe. It takes much longer to clear.

So, I started leveling my AST, which is currently level 55. Every time I get a BRD as a DPS class in my dungeon runs, I ask them how they feel about and, and alert them that it's not what they're used to 52+.

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Originally Posted by UltimateAoe2

Crit'd a Sidewinder in Ravana today for 7k+

It was glorious.

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very nice, as I hardly touch WM in it's current disastrous form that was fine for me with the gear I had at the time.

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Originally Posted by Edellis

except for Sorcerer...i had to stand still for like 6 years to get a fireblast off.

But oh, how satisfying a spell it was...

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I played archer and sorcerer, and dps never felt slow on sorc cast times were non existent at least when I played and iirc I had it glyphed for faster use. When did u play?

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Originally Posted by Reinha

I just had a horrifying thought. Imagine what it's like for someone (new or veteran) who doesn't visit forums or read patch notes, when they pick up archer for the first time. They level it a few levels, enjoy it and decide to keep going. After dozens of hours, at level 52 they find out that they are no longer the mobile ranger they started as >_<

There really isn't another class that has to suffer that magnitude of a change so late in the leveling process.

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Well to their advantage, WM is terrible at 52 and doesn't even come close to no WM until 56. So if they don't want to use it, but still want to do good/better DPS, they don't have to... at least until 60.

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Originally Posted by UltimateAoe2

Crit'd a Sidewinder in Ravana today for 7k+

It was glorious.

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Glorious rofl. A tank shits on our biggest attack and also more than once every minute. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVcMcd1rj7Q

Not to mention Blm and Summ.

Yeah tonight I was like "woo look at that I critted that for 3K" - then I remembered I regularly did 3K crits on my BLM at 50. :(

While Wanderer's Minuet is off I want Empyreal Arrow, Iron Jaws, The Warden's Paean & Sidewinder still usable but with less effect or damage. And when Wanderer's Minuet is on please give me ability to use auto attack but with more interval time.

Personally, I like the changes.
It gives some options to the bard players on how to play.
Think about it: Most of the time, Archery is very static in real life. Why, therefore, should the damage be equal whether we move or not?
That's the idea of Wanderer's Minuet. Rather than attacking automatically, we can methodically choose which skills to use, and allows us to ramp up damage by focusing on the shot.

My main issue is that the Wanderer's Minuet is really, really badly named. I understand what they were going for, but the skill is the exact opposite of wandering.

My issue is that I still want Bard to be more support based. Give me more ballads, more ways of supporting people in meaningful ways. Let MB have an effect on Darkside. Let us see people's TP, for feck sake.

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Originally Posted by codofwisdom

Personally, I like the changes.
It gives some options to the bard players on how to play.
Think about it: Most of the time, Archery is very static in real life. Why, therefore, should the damage be equal whether we move or not?
That's the idea of Wanderer's Minuet. Rather than attacking automatically, we can methodically choose which skills to use, and allows us to ramp up damage by focusing on the shot.

My main issue is that the Wanderer's Minuet is really, really badly named. I understand what they were going for, but the skill is the exact opposite of wandering.

My issue is that I still want Bard to be more support based. Give me more ballads, more ways of supporting people in meaningful ways. Let MB have an effect on Darkside. Let us see people's TP, for feck sake.

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Yes, yes and yes. Especially that last part. I can't tell you how much it annoys me when someone calls for tp without giving me a percentage so I'm not sure if they are trolling and making me lose dps/mp or really need it. A tp bar for everyone would be great!

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Originally Posted by codofwisdom

Think about it: Most of the time, Archery is very static in real life. Why, therefore, should the damage be equal whether we move or not?

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Thats what ive been saying. I always thought it was ridicuous how BRD could shoot so well, play music AND run/jump around like Yoda on 10 cups of coffee. Mobility should be the MCH's thing from now on :cool: (/flamesuit)...

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Originally Posted by Kayote

Thats what ive been saying. I always thought it was ridicuous how BRD could shoot so well, play music AND run/jump around like Yoda on 10 cups of coffee. Mobility should be the MCH's thing from now on :cool: (/flamesuit)...

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That would be great and all but... Machinist has the same problem.

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Originally Posted by Kayote

Thats what ive been saying. I always thought it was ridicuous how BRD could shoot so well, play music AND run/jump around like Yoda on 10 cups of coffee. Mobility should be the MCH's thing from now on :cool: (/flamesuit)...

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Well, Bards are talented individuals. The thing is that we STILL have the option of running around. We just have to give up the 20% damage boost, and a bunch of kickass skills.
It's almost as if we have to concentrate to activate these skills...

And yeah, I agree. MCH should be more mobile. They should also have a kind of sniper stance, but it makes more sense that they can run around. Hell, where do you think the term "Run and Gun" comes from?

EDIT: Also, apparently Yoshi has seen the massive outcry, and has informed us that stuff will be altered.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3090840

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Originally Posted by KylePearlsand

That would be great and all but... Machinist has the same problem.

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I know! Its a shame they made them such copies of each other. Not sure what the point was behind changing bard so much, only to make the new class be the same difference.

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Originally Posted by codofwisdom

Personally, I like the changes.
It gives some options to the bard players on how to play.
Think about it: Most of the time, Archery is very static in real life. Why, therefore, should the damage be equal whether we move or not?
That's the idea of Wanderer's Minuet. Rather than attacking automatically, we can methodically choose which skills to use, and allows us to ramp up damage by focusing on the shot.

My main issue is that the Wanderer's Minuet is really, really badly named. I understand what they were going for, but the skill is the exact opposite of wandering.

My issue is that I still want Bard to be more support based. Give me more ballads, more ways of supporting people in meaningful ways. Let MB have an effect on Darkside. Let us see people's TP, for feck sake.

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Pass on the more support based, I'm support enough and still have to meet dps checks as a bard I don't need more nerfing to make it harder to make those checks.

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Originally Posted by Kayote

Thats what ive been saying. I always thought it was ridicuous how BRD could shoot so well, play music AND run/jump around like Yoda on 10 cups of coffee. Mobility should be the MCH's thing from now on :cool: (/flamesuit)...

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Go play something else if you don't like our mobility.

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Originally Posted by Yoruichi4478

Go play something else if you don't like our mobility.

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No YOU play something else.

... I can be obnoxiously conservative, ignorant and dismissive of someone elses preferences too.

Mobility is the bard's specialty though, has been since 2.0 Alpha.

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Originally Posted by Kayote

No YOU play something else.

... I can be obnoxiously conservative, ignorant and dismissive of someone elses preferences too.

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I have and I prefer being mobile and ranged thx^^ and seriously, relax that is the response of someone who couldn't think of a better one.
If dps had the mobility of TERA's dps I'd consider it but atm I'm doing my main bard and machinist when it's 60. Maybe ranger if they ever introduce that. Would love blu but that's not happening.

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Originally Posted by codofwisdom

Personally, I like the changes.
It gives some options to the bard players on how to play.
Think about it: Most of the time, Archery is very static in real life. Why, therefore, should the damage be equal whether we move or not?
That's the idea of Wanderer's Minuet. Rather than attacking automatically, we can methodically choose which skills to use, and allows us to ramp up damage by focusing on the shot.

My main issue is that the Wanderer's Minuet is really, really badly named. I understand what they were going for, but the skill is the exact opposite of wandering.

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While I don't have issues with your other points, I do have a counter point to the bolded red sentence. Historically the most deadly archers were also highly mobile. Egyptian chariot archers, Saracen archers, and the Mongolian horseback archers to name a few. Fun fact, the deadly accuracy and high mobility of the Mongolian archers were a major factor for the spread of their empire under Genghis Khan.

What I wish SE was followed Blizzard's example with Hunters. Instead of locking us in place, give us a few powerful skills that have a cast timer. So we'd have two rotations one for when we have time to stay still and one for high movement phases. Or alternatively Blizzard added a passive ability to one tree from what I hear that gives a damage buff the longer you remain still. Either would be much better in my opinion than this attempt to turn bards and machinists into black mage lite. Because to be honest all they managed to do is turn both jobs into train wrecks.