Bard - they broke my job

im using it for the opener only then turn it off. but even when i do turn it off and i see the "- WM" on screen. if i fire a heavy shot, it starts casting heavy shot -.-

is this a bug or is it because of latency?

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Originally Posted by Empty-handed

im using it for the opener only then turn it off. but even when i do turn it off and i see the "- WM" on screen. if i fire a heavy shot, it starts casting heavy shot -.-

is this a bug or is it because of latency?

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Pretty sure its a bug caused by latency, straighter shot does the same thing. Next time it happens try to immediately move and see if that cancels the "cast". If my guess is correct it will be uninteruptable as though it was instant cast but you wont be able to use an ogcd until its done.

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Originally Posted by MrYaah

My parses are coming out as more dps on a dummy with minuet but its really hard to consistently get more dps on most bosses with minuet vs without.

I dont think theres any way to really consolidate a casting playstyle with bloodletter and bards other ogcds. Even if you discount bloodletter its already going to be hard to consistently get all the ogcds used in a timely matter and they will frequently collide during your rotation forcing you to either delay once of the ogcds or delay your gcd. Then you add in bloodletter with an average cd of 6 seconds.... What the hell was square enix thinking? They're forcing players into no win situations where you constantly forced to decide between delaying an ogcd, delaying a gcd, or leaving bloodletter off cd during your next dot tick. Its always unclear what the correct choice is and its extremely unfun to be put into situations like this 10 times per minute.

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I hadn't thought about it that way, but now it explains why it's so stressful to play BRD with WM for me right now. I have everything popping at the same time, DoTs about to fall off from the boss, determine if I can avoid this incoming AoE after my cast is finished or I need to interrupt it, then it turns out that I have to interrupt it and it was my Iron Jaws cast, so no DoTs. In the mean time, 3 BL were wasted (why procs when you can't use them), my Heavy Shot interrupted my own Heavy Shot and, even though I got a SS proc, the cast still started. So now I have to decide if I interrupt this SS or keep the cast going and lose DPS from using an unproc'd SS.

And of course, I gotta keep telling my 2-year-old muscle memory that I have to use RoD, not BL for normal pulls.

Everyone on Page 12 gets it!! I'm glad that there are people who shares my sentiment. Bard isn't bard anymore with cast time. It is supposed to be a class with mobility with okay dps, not some bow mage. If I wanted a caster class, obviously I would've main a smn or blm from the get go.

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Originally Posted by Inferiae

I hadn't thought about it that way, but now it explains why it's so stressful to play BRD with WM for me right now. I have everything popping at the same time, DoTs about to fall off from the boss, determine if I can avoid this incoming AoE after my cast is finished or I need to interrupt it, then it turns out that I have to interrupt it and it was my Iron Jaws cast, so no DoTs. In the mean time, 3 BL were wasted (why procs when you can't use them), my Heavy Shot interrupted my own Heavy Shot and, even though I got a SS proc, the cast still started. So now I have to decide if I interrupt this SS or keep the cast going and lose DPS from using an unproc'd SS.

And of course, I gotta keep telling my 2-year-old muscle memory that I have to use RoD, not BL for normal pulls.

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Except that you cant interupt the ss because it bugs out. Isnt new bard amazing?

To be fair, I think the RoD change is amazing. Easily the best change to bard in 3.0, 10/10 would ask for again.

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Originally Posted by FateAudax

Everyone on Page 12 gets it!! I'm glad that there are people who shares my sentiment. Bard isn't bard anymore with cast time. It is supposed to be a class with mobility with okay dps, not some bow mage. If I wanted a caster class, obviously I would've main a smn or blm from the get go.

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I don't think the idea of trading mobility for dps as a bard is a bad one but it wasnt implemented in a way that is consistent with the rest of the class. Wanders minuet doesnt trade mobility for dps, it trades dps and mobility and consistency for dps. They need to go back to the drawing board but I don't think there is any way to give bard cast bars while maintaining its existing identity as an ogcd management based class.

Heres a random Idea, instead of wanders minuet have some ability that glues bard to the ground, while they're turreted they deal bonus damage, movement breaks the stance and returns them to normal dps. Theres no cast bar on anything any point. I'm not saying this is a good implementation but you can see where I'm going with this. Casting and Bards will not mix until they remove 50% of bards ogcds including BL and at that point it wont be bard.

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Originally Posted by MrYaah

My parses are coming out as more dps on a dummy with minuet but its really hard to consistently get more dps on most bosses with minuet vs without.

I dont think theres any way to really consolidate a casting playstyle with bloodletter and bards other ogcds. Even if you discount bloodletter its already going to be hard to consistently get all the ogcds used in a timely matter and they will frequently collide during your rotation forcing you to either delay once of the ogcds or delay your gcd. Then you add in bloodletter with an average cd of 6 seconds.... What the hell was square enix thinking? They're forcing players into no win situations where you constantly forced to decide between delaying an ogcd, delaying a gcd, or leaving bloodletter off cd during your next dot tick. Its always unclear what the correct choice is and its extremely unfun to be put into situations like this 10 times per minute.

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I was waiting for you to make a comment about bard, I'm surprised you came in this late!

I can't agree with you more. I can try to manage movements, that's not a problem because I played BLM in coil. But managing the loss of being able to double weave OGCDs and making a lose-lose choice on which OGCDs to fire off when they all comes together multiple times a minute is just.... ugh.

Out of curiosity what are your dummy numbers now?

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

I was waiting for you to make a comment about bard, I'm surprised you came in this late!

I can't agree with you more. I can try to manage movements, that's not a problem because I played BLM in coil. But managing the loss of being able to double weave OGCDs and making a lose-lose choice on which OGCDs to fire off when they all comes together multiple times a minute is just.... ugh.

Out of curiosity what are your dummy numbers now?

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Lol, sorry it took so long, been busy in game :P

I havn't parsed since I got the hive weapon or upgraded some of my gear so these numbers are rather useless but I was doing I think 880ish with minuet and 830ish without. The gap may have been bigger. I can go do some intense consistency parses tomorrow and come back and post them for you. Its definitely looking like minuet is a gain in a best case scenario from what I've seen though.

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Originally Posted by MrYaah

I havn't parsed since I got the hive weapon or upgraded some of my gear so these numbers are rather useless but I was doing I think 880ish with minuet and 830ish without. The gap may have been bigger. I can go do some intense consistency parses tomorrow and come back and post them for you. Its definitely looking like minuet is a gain in a best case scenario from what I've seen though.

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If you can let me know what you are doing with minuet (ie opener/priority), since I can't seem to outparse my non-minuet parse. I don't have the Hive Bow yet but yes, 830ish without minuet with i180 weapon is what I am getting on dummy (no food/pot/party). If you could I'd appreciate the parse to be on IL180 bow too so that I can get a fair comparison. Thanks much.

Hot topic now bard ah....
I want to run again freely....
I wan to be a peacock....

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

If you can let me know what you are doing with minuet (ie opener/priority), since I can't seem to outparse my non-minuet parse. I don't have the Hive Bow yet but yes, 830ish without minuet with i180 weapon is what I am getting on dummy (no food/pot/party). If you could I'd appreciate the parse to be on IL180 bow too so that I can get a fair comparison. Thanks much.

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I leave up minuet the entire time. My opener was something like HE RS B4B SS IR WB BL VB Barrage EA HS SW HS FA -> YOLO. My priority is tenatively BL always gets used, then try to fit in one non bl ogcd per gcd, delaying gcds as necessary. After that I'm just working on mastering my ironjaws timings so that I'm reapplying them as late as possible without dropping ( I still drop all the fucking time and its annoying as hell). New bard is freaking rough.

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Originally Posted by MrYaah

I leave up minuet the entire time. My opener was something like HE RS B4B SS IR WB BL VB Barrage EA HS SW HS FA -> YOLO. My priority is tenatively BL always gets used, then try to fit in one non bl ogcd per gcd, delaying gcds as necessary. After that I'm just working on mastering my ironjaws timings so that I'm reapplying them as late as possible without dropping ( I still drop all the fucking time and its annoying as hell). New bard is freaking rough.

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I guess you are getting more used to the new bard than I do. My minuet parse yes leaving it always on, my opener is about the same as you: RS-HE-BFB => BL => SS => IR => WB => FA => VB => Barrage+EA => SW => YOLO

I guess IJ timing is a major problem for me since I happen to either do it too early or too late, causing drops. It's much tougher to predict the timing by using cast time (since fairy can affect your skill speed) rather than previously, just see the DoT timer as the skill is instant. And of course since IJ just merely resets the timer but doesn't carries a buffed DoT over, there will be times where your IR/RS/HE buff is up and I need to manually reapply DoTs so that they enjoy the buff and it causes problems because the timer for both DoTs coincide with SS buff timer and you realized that EA/Repelling/Blunt/BL are all up again.

And my face was "oh god why...."

I'm pretty sure it is a double reapplication based on current buffs so if you have IR RS HE up when you use IJ it will get those buffs, I'll double check but thats what I remember determining.

Yes, IJ refresh DoTs with the buffs you currently have.

Oh I mean when you re-apply IJ when you have no buff status, the DoTs are normal DoTs at 18s each so when the next time you have IR/HE/BFB/RS up then there's a need to manually reapply each not so that you get buffed DoTs again.

That effectively makes you have to do 1 more "cast" which becomes a problem when your OGCDs refreshes at the same time. Too many skills need to go off at that instance.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

I guess you are getting more used to the new bard than I do. My minuet parse yes leaving it always on, my opener is about the same as you: RS-HE-BFB => BL => SS => IR => WB => FA => VB => Barrage+EA => SW => YOLO

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Hm. Assuming you have 2.5 seconds cooldown, you get roughly 9.5 seconds left with 3 offensive CD up. Enough to fit in IJ, but I think it's possible to use EA twice in an opener, if you use EA in the beginning and delay Barrage'd EA. You'll be clipping GCD, but you're clipping GCD with this opener anyway.

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

But all endgame bards I ever saw, stood still most of the time anyway. The needless, superfluous movements some bards make, simply don't need to happen. You don't have to be able to run around at all times, the game doesn't require it and SE knows this. Furthermore, most bards have complained about a loss of dps over other jobs for some time, SE gave them the option to have similiar dps to other jobs and the result is more complaints it would appear.

It will be interesting if SE does anything with WM.

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So what if we didn't move by your observation? It's the casting as bard that has alot of bards up in arms. Your argument is flawed there. We could and can if we don't use WM still insta pew pew.

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Originally Posted by FateAudax

I'll have to stop you right there. So you claimed that you witnessed ALL endgame bards in action? and all they did was stood there like a dummy?
Do you by chance main a bard enough to call our movement superfluous?

I find it amusing in every thread, there are always these players who doesn't main a bard coming in and tell us "your class is alright, you just do not know how to play it, lol lel rofl". No offence but I really find it amusing because it's like a boy telling a girl "hey, I know how it feels to have pms but deal with it".

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I guess according to this guy we all eat the damage we run to avoid while dpsing on the move. Nooo we just stand there and take it (sarcasm).

Going to try that tonight...open with a EA and then it should be up for the buffed EA later right...seems like it should...not a theory crafter I try things out and see how they work. Good discussion going here everyone...love it. I think that we will find that once we get this down the dps increase will be real. I really think we need to go heavy on ss also since it does affect dots much better now and maybe go let det?? I have noticed that a lot of the leveling gear has a ton of ss on it but not sure about the law gear. Does anyone have any more info on this or tried this out??

im trying to like the new bard...i loved and advocated for a ranger stance that forced me to cast and what not....it wasnt a bad idea if implemented well.

However the new bow-mage feels like rushed and that the brd mechanics dont go well with WM (just bloodletter and SS procs ugh) , i love the new skills E.Arrow is cool (x3 cooler with barrage :D ) and Sidewinder hits like a truck with buffs up , 58 skill is LOL maybe usefull later on :rolleyes:

WM needs to be buffed and maybe alow bard to shot bloodletter even when casting , weapon damage needs a look too , if we are going to be DPS , then we need to be competitive with other ranged jobs (BLM/SMN , both look really strong) otherwise we are going to avoid WM (E.Arrow and IJ ) outside opener and keep playing like 2.0.

SE will try to fix both BRD and MCH stances hope they get it right this time , doubt SE will remove it

Hm. Let's see. That's what I'd like to see in wm. I don't mind cast time since with SS procs I can weave in Repelling Shot, and I can cast off RS without getting interrupted.

Bump wm up to 30% damage increase. Should make up for AA loss.
Increase natural MP regen while in wm. Immensely raises value of wm.
Take it off GCD and put on 1 sec cast/insta-cast with 5 sec cooldown. QoL feature.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

im trying to like the new bard...i loved and advocated for a ranger stance that forced me to cast and what not....it wasnt a bad idea if implemented well.

However the new bow-mage feels like rushed and that the brd mechanics dont go well with WM (just bloodletter and SS procs ugh) , i love the new skills E.Arrow is cool (x3 cooler with barrage :D ) and Sidewinder hits like a truck with buffs up , 58 skill is LOL maybe usefull later on :rolleyes:

SE will try to fix both BRD and MCH stances hope they get it right this time , doubt SE will remove it

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It took them a very long time to fix dragoon in 2.x content dont be surprised if it isnt addressed until 3.4 --- lets not even go back to ff11 ranger and dragoon are still broken over 10 years.

If i was to propose an idea to fix the brd and mch issues i'd do the following

1. make these abilities like WM instant cast like cleric stance
2. allow cool downs to be popped same time as casting
3. give bard a defensive ability like blm has manaward/wall since we cant move instead of that useless esuna song..

Thanks!

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen..._wm_no_wm_and/

I am just going to leave this right here. WM, in the end will probably be our best option for end game content.

But... 830 at i179 compared to most other DPS classes that does well over 1200... is just sad. Keep in mind this is a dummy parse without movement and mechanics involved. I can see us doing 700-ish with that in mind with the current gear sets while we run the current dungeons.

If a tank class in DPS stances can do well over 900, what justifies it that we can only pull this? Because we can play songs? The damage discrepancy is way too high.

Bye bard, hello black mage for me.

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Originally Posted by Jericho_Cross

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen..._wm_no_wm_and/

I am just going to leave this right here. WM, in the end will probably be our best option for end game content.

But... 830 at i179 compared to most other DPS classes that does well over 1200... is just sad. Keep in mind this is a dummy parse without movement and mechanics involved. I can see us doing 700-ish with that in mind with the current gear sets while we run the current dungeons.

If a tank class in DPS stances can do well over 900, what justifies it that we can only pull this? Because we can play songs? The damage discrepancy is way too high.

Bye bard, hello black mage for me.

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Songs already nerf our DPS output by using them, we shouldn't be punished for simply having the songs even if they're not in use.

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Originally Posted by Panasync

Songs already nerf our DPS output by using them, we shouldn't be punished for simply having the songs even if they're not in use.

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Exactly, can you imagine how horrible our numbers will be when people start asking for songs in a raid. With all the movements involved in these new fights, with all our oGCD coming up and with having to play songs here and there, I would be surprise if we break 700 in the end of a fight... All things considered, playing at your best your numbers will still be significantly lower than others no matter what happens in a fight, if there's movement or no movement.

Until they address this issue or increase damage on WM, I am not going back to this class as much as I love it.

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Originally Posted by SonTensei

It took them a very long time to fix dragoon in 2.x content dont be surprised if it isnt addressed until 3.4 --- lets not even go back to ff11 ranger and dragoon are still broken over 10 years.

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yeah , lets hope SE make adjustments and fixes faster :( , maybe on alex patch or 3.1 ....

Alright so i found this reddit about bard DPS
http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen..._wm_no_wm_and/

This guys seems like a pretty good player so lets look at his number closely.

the WM does in fact increase our dps over the 2.0 skills...

The purpose was because people complained bards dont do enough damage...

However Drg and Mnk have been parsing at 1200 dps over 300 more DPS than bard with WM...
Before say on T13, the monk used to out dps me by like 60-80 (i was bard)

Now the gap is going to be EVEN BIGGER at least 300 dps gap..

So if we have to change our playstyle to do "more" damage but the gap between bard/mch is LARGER than before than I have no choice but to come to the conclusion that SE's design of MCH and BRD in Heavensward is absolute fail.

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Originally Posted by SonTensei

Alright so i found this reddit about bard DPS
http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen..._wm_no_wm_and/

This guys seems like a pretty good player so lets look at his number closely.

the WM does in fact increase our dps over the 2.0 skills...

The purpose was because people complained bards dont do enough damage...

However Drg and Mnk have been parsing at 1200 dps over 300 more DPS than bard with WM...
Before say on T13, the monk used to out dps me by like 60-80 (i was bard)

Now the gap is going to be EVEN BIGGER at least 300 dps gap..

So if we have to change our playstyle to do "more" damage but the gap between bard/mch is LARGER than before than I have no choice but to come to the conclusion that SE's design of MCH and BRD in Heavensward is absolute fail.

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But he isn't very good if he botchered up his no WM rotation so much.

Here's mine in the same thread with no WM on at all.
http://i18.servimg.com/u/f18/14/22/88/02/brd_pa11.jpg

As you can see compared to his WM the WM would actually do LESS dmg.

I can't compare my WM to my no WM as I feel I might get an STD just from turning the song on.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

But he isn't very good if he botchered up his no WM rotation so much.

Here's mine in the same thread with no WM on at all.
http://i18.servimg.com/u/f18/14/22/88/02/brd_pa11.jpg

As you can see compared to his WM the WM would actually do LESS dmg.

I can't compare my WM to my no WM as I feel I might get an STD just from turning the song on.

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Fair enough. Either way --- The gap between BRD (MCH) and the other DPS increased!!!!!!! While the utility ie mobility DECREASED... thats just bad design.

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Originally Posted by SonTensei

Fair enough. Either way --- The gap between BRD (MCH) and the other DPS increased!!!!!!! While the utility ie mobility DECREASED... thats just bad design.

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Our FC MCH is pushing 980 on a 4min parse.

I think MCH actually works better than BRD and just takes some more time to learn. (Not saying they'r in a good spot, just probably better off than BRD since they don't have BL proc's etc which would conflict with their GB)

But yea I'm gonna go back being salty in game.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

But he isn't very good if he botchered up his no WM rotation so much.

Here's mine in the same thread with no WM on at all.
http://i18.servimg.com/u/f18/14/22/88/02/brd_pa11.jpg

As you can see compared to his WM the WM would actually do LESS dmg.

I can't compare my WM to my no WM as I feel I might get an STD just from turning the song on.

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Is there a reason people keep buffing their DEX with either another party member or a Chocobo? Previously in all of 2.0-2.5 all information was without food buffs or party members unless specifically stated w/dragoon, now people are inflating numbers with party members I don't get it.

Are all the other jobs parsing 1.2-1k using a party member too? If so why?

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Originally Posted by Panasync

Is there a reason people keep buffing their DEX with either another party member or a Chocobo? Previously in all of 2.0-2.5 all information was without food buffs or party members unless specifically stated w/dragoon, now people are inflating numbers with party members I don't get it.

Are all the other jobs parsing 1.2-1k using a party member too? If so why?

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In my case it was to compare to the other guys parse since he had a war in party.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

yeah , lets hope SE make adjustments and fixes faster :( , maybe on alex patch or 3.1 ....

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that is very optimistic thinking, but i cant be as optimistic because dev team has a history of taking a long time to do changes to jobs,.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

In my case it was to compare to the other guys parse since he had a war in party.

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While I understand that, it makes zero sense to me other than from an epeen standpoint to arbitrarily buff stats in parses that are supposed to be for job dps limits. If people can't just do it standalone people are going to be confused and throwing out numbers that don't equal or mean anything because people will see someone post a number, not realize it's with a WAR/Choco and argue with another player that is parsing 50dps less w/o any party help saying well you're just not playing it right I saw someone who get x amount of dps not realizing the buff(s).

Is the standard not just doing it alone? Did I miss whenever people decided hey let's throw a choco in there so my numbers look closer to a raid parse w/o the actual raid mechanics?

well im rly at a loss here and i dont know what to do now im thinking about rerolling to some other class thx to the bard changes but then again a movement strong range class does not exist anymore, cause mecha is the same shit only with 2 more instants. i dont get who had the clever idea to ruin the job with this casting stuff. why ffs would i want my bard to have cast times. if i wanted a blackmage i would play a damn blackmage. guess ill eat the less dps an keep playing the bard as it was, screw se and their shitty design choices!

so sry guys now that thats out of my system i kinda almost feel better. back to fishing it is.

I'm having a hard time making it to 60 to finish the story. All of my FC members are talking about their cool new job abilities and I'm sitting here with my broken ass class than I poured months into learning to do well. I tried doing other jobs and it just made me more angry. Really thinking about taking a break while they sort this out...

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Originally Posted by Panasync

While I understand that, it makes zero sense to me other than from an epeen standpoint to arbitrarily buff stats in parses that are supposed to be for job dps limits. If people can't just do it standalone people are going to be confused and throwing out numbers that don't equal or mean anything because people will see someone post a number, not realize it's with a WAR/Choco and argue with another player that is parsing 50dps less w/o any party help saying well you're just not playing it right I saw someone who get x amount of dps not realizing the buff(s).

Is the standard not just doing it alone? Did I miss whenever people decided hey let's throw a choco in there so my numbers look closer to a raid parse w/o the actual raid mechanics?

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Solo, no party/pot/food buff is pretty much the standard.

But him (tony_smash) screwing up his old bard style parse is the truth. IL179 doing 754 he really needs to git gud. A 3:30 parse at IL179 I'm pulling 830+ based on the standard no party/pot/food buff standards.

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Originally Posted by Panasync

While I understand that, it makes zero sense to me other than from an epeen standpoint to arbitrarily buff stats in parses that are supposed to be for job dps limits. If people can't just do it standalone people are going to be confused and throwing out numbers that don't equal or mean anything because people will see someone post a number, not realize it's with a WAR/Choco and argue with another player that is parsing 50dps less w/o any party help saying well you're just not playing it right I saw someone who get x amount of dps not realizing the buff(s).

Is the standard not just doing it alone? Did I miss whenever people decided hey let's throw a choco in there so my numbers look closer to a raid parse w/o the actual raid mechanics?

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I honestly don't know, I parse without most of the time to have a base line for myself too and that way I don't have to find anyone or do it outside the housing ward most of the time, unless it's laggy.
I mean I can do no choco parses too, this one I did quickly without choco earlier since apparently the war wasn't in his party. But his 760 or so on 3:30 is still low for an old rotation.

I messed up at the start and it still is 868 over 4:25 which is almost a min longer. We are screwed, but if you'r not doing the old rotation right in the first place it's gonna show WM as dps gain while it most likely isn't.
http://i18.servimg.com/u/f18/14/22/88/02/brd_pa12.jpg
Without messing up I suspect to be able to sustain around that 900 on dummy with the old rotation for this amount of time without a party that is.
I'm not showing my top parses here, just some numbers, to point out that if WM is not going to buff our damage significantly above 900 it is a garbage stance and even if it will it still has a horrible gameplay with all the bad ogcd timings so just a potency increase is not a fix, just a band-aid.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Our FC MCH is pushing 980 on a 4min parse.

I think MCH actually works better than BRD and just takes some more time to learn. (Not saying they'r in a good spot, just probably better off than BRD since they don't have BL proc's etc which would conflict with their GB)

But yea I'm gonna go back being salty in game.

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I need someone to teach me how to MCH :X