Your thoughts on Astrolgian so far?

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Originally Posted by Sykoticjestr

I dont know if people are special or just want thier cake and eat it too. AST wasnt supposed to replace whm or sch, but to be primarily a support class with some heals. For those who played FFXI it plays similar to RDM, where your primary role is to cast support spells while throwing a few heals when needed to give the main healer a little relief. If people would stop assuming AST is weak and accept the fact that they are primarily a supporting class then we can all just get along.

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There is no spot for support as a healer - A dps can fill that role (BARD). If the buffs were stronger I could see it, but at this point there is no reason to bring an AST in place of a WHM and to do so would be a waste since SCH can dps with a WHM main healing. SCH will need to focus more on healing with an AST in order to keep the group from wiping as is. WHM/SCH is still far and away better than any AST combo... I get your point, but AST has no place in current state.

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Originally Posted by Ambivalence

There is no spot for support as a healer - A dps can fill that role (BARD). If the buffs were stronger I could see it, but at this point there is no reason to bring an AST in place of a WHM and to do so would be a waste since SCH can dps with a WHM main healing. SCH will need to focus more on healing with an AST in order to keep the group from wiping as is. WHM/SCH is still far and away better than any AST combo... I get your point, but AST has no place in current state.

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I aggree with you i see no way an AST could replace a SCH or WHM, replacing sch you loose too much , supervirus, soil , covenant and replacing whm you will lose too much aoe healing power making the sch heal instead of helping to dps and push the fight faster.

I imagine that when we see ASTs at 60 with skilled players, we'll see they have a place among WHM and SCH. I imagine that, in terms of 8-man groups, the true test will be for an AST to know how to work with WHM or SCH - hopefully never another AST. This will go beyond knowing Nocturnal v Dirunal, but how to optimize the other's role while supplementing their weaknesses.

Such as getting either to DPS, supplementing AoE heals for SCH, and covering for tank busters with a WHM. All the while keeping card buffs up and extending them.

Anything an AST can do, a SCH/WHM combo can do better or more reliably. With the massive mitigation options SCH has gained, combined with their DPS, and the raw healing power WHM, nothing an AST combined with either WHM or SCH can match. Yes, AST has some awesome utility options; however, it's random. If you line all the benefits up, it looks awesome on paper, but they can't offer those benefits on demand. Only one party member can benefit from AST at a time, and only once every 30/60~ seconds.

Eventually, when out gearing content, perhaps AST will show more usefulness. However, in the interim, you're either giving up throughput from WHM or DPS/utility/mitigation from SCH in order to have an AST in your Full Party. AST needs to be able to stance dance, acquire more reliable utility, or be equivalent to WHM/SCH in terms of either DPS or throughput in order to warrant a position over WHM/SCH.

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Originally Posted by RageForOrderX

I imagine that when we see ASTs at 60 with skilled players, we'll see they have a place among WHM and SCH. I imagine that, in terms of 8-man groups, the true test will be for an AST to know how to work with WHM or SCH - hopefully never another AST. This will go beyond knowing Nocturnal v Dirunal, but how to optimize the other's role while supplementing their weaknesses.

Such as getting either to DPS, supplementing AoE heals for SCH, and covering for tank busters with a WHM. All the while keeping card buffs up and extending them.

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The problem is AST can't really out skill the card mechanics. The long cool-downs on card drawing and shuffling, along with royal roaded buffs requiring 2 cards means minutes spent trying to get a certain combo.
If your unlucky enough to keep drawing Bole,Spear and Spire when noone needs these buffs, then you've not really contributed enough to warrant the loss of WHM or SCH.

Almost 60 and have been healing every dungeon up to and including vault, imo its really tough trying to dps as an ast. It takes A LOT of effort to utilize/ manage ur cards during boss fights. Like buffing a high dmg monk or drgn with enhanced balanced + time dilation = op or add tht mini huton etc.
i tried this a few times in old 8 man content and its pretty hard to not play it like a whm. Often you will find urself neglecting the cards " as u r focused on healing & dpsing "

In end game raid content, there might be too much to look at for ast players.
- mechanics
-party hp
- ur positioning
- tanks hp
- status ailments
- cards/ card combos
- trying to dps properly with the 3 dots u have ( combust 1/2 & aero)
- stance dancing

Failing any of these will easily make u inferior to whm or sch = y bother bringing a half baked support healer.

Also the rng in the cards add another level of difficulty.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

The problem is they can't really out skill the card mechanics. The long cool-downs on card drawing and shuffling, along with royal roaded buffs requiring 2 cards means minutes spent try to get a certain combo.

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Yes, there will always be a random aspect to it. You won't be able to pop damage reduction whenever a big hit is coming. But, think in reverse.

An AST has to be so aware of the field that, whatever their card is, they know how they can best utilize it in the next 15 seconds. Combine that with keeping a mental note of what effect you're going to have from what you just RR'd, most of the time there will be SOMETHING you can do with the card you just drew, and getting it to the right target at the right time requires skill.

Well draw Bole, Spear and Spire over and over then it doesnt matter how "aware" you are.
RR isnt hard , its just memorization...

Bole and Balance , Affect damage straight up. B and B. RR is potency
Spear and Arrow - weapons, RR is AOE.
Ewer and Spire, reduce costs of resources-duration.

When it comes down to it. Duration and Potency have a negligible difference.
AoE is the strongest when your in an 8 man.

Also another problem i notice is,
Your co healer 9/10 times have no idea what u are.
Ik its early access but i see schs and whms trying to figure out how to play with u.
Often they will treat u like their opposite, whm-> sch & sch -> whm
Expecting u to fill in the other role which is kinda hard as we cannot shield or heal like the other.
If a sch makes u heal like a whm then ur going to go oom trying top off ppl/ tanks. Regardless of using ewer / enhanced/ extended + dilation. Other times whm will be like its k let me heal the majority but then they expect shields to help mitigation. Which is hard as we only have bole, noct shields & disable.
But once again card rng makes it hard to get at the right time.

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Originally Posted by Sykoticjestr

I dont know if people are special or just want thier cake and eat it too. AST wasnt supposed to replace whm or sch, but to be primarily a support class with some heals. For those who played FFXI it plays similar to RDM, where your primary role is to cast support spells while throwing a few heals when needed to give the main healer a little relief. If people would stop assuming AST is weak and accept the fact that they are primarily a supporting class then we can all just get along.

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I think it's a mix, probably a trial and error to see how a 'more' supportive type would work in-game.
This is why it's a little eh...they aren't good at everything. They are jack of trades.
A full fledged support will not work here...what we have here is a hybrid...like BRD...And I guess MCH.
It's more Support than it is healer.
But this patch BRD is more DPS focus but I digress.

I dunno how 8 man's are but I think people are more concerned about raiding.

- IMO I feel like they need to interact more with the cards. Bump the Draw thing to like 20/25 seconds or something.
- Please stop letting us draw the card we already have. In lore, yes I will use lore, we gained 6 cards, no reason why we somehow have duplicates.
You know how many times I try to get rid of Spire!?

30 is so damn long for the little time buffs we get. I can't wait for a guide or something.
I don't think I'm playing it right. I wanna use my cards a lot more but when I wanna buff them I'm putting them
in RR, then 30 sec CD, and waiting... >.<

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Well draw Bole, Spear and Spire over and over then it doesnt matter how "aware" you are.
RR isnt hard , stop acting like it is.

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RR isnt hard its just technical as each card will make RR into either extended, enhanced, expanded.
It does matter how aware u r, sometimes i forget my RR is extended and i treat it like expanded. Ik its on my status bar but i forgot = not aware. So because of that i casted that extended on myself thinking it would spread to others = waste of balanced that the dragoon/ mnk could have used.

So yes it isnt hard its just has a lot of room for error.

Too much time spent creating the combo, due to RNG and Large cooldowns. Means not enough buff up-time. Thats the problem with AST.

I am just so upset because the idea of Support/Healing over DPS/Healing was such a huge WANT for me and AST is just not viable. The job is just lackluster and it could have been so much more in acutal content/actual gameplay.

AST abilities are also so beautiful. I will cross my fingers for a BUFF!!!

"i heal every dungeon to 60" is not a qualification for AST, my scholar can heal the story 8 mans solo and half asleep, story is easy in this xpack.

People say AST is such awesome support that he doesnt need heal or dps, but all i see is in BEST CASE a 5% speed buff AE for 20 secs every minute.
The freaking faery can do that too.



Maybe if card CDs get halved the class would be more interesting.
and rework lightspeed the noob trap skill, which does nothing but decrease troughput by 25%.

Imo they should allow the CD for draw to be halved if the player doesn't use the card ( doesn't spread, RR, or draw it )
So that way they would have an easier time drawing another card instead of wasting it on a combo.
You can have the perfect RR but not the perfect card for tht situation = you either waste ur RR, spread or shuffle.
Really looking grim for raid stuff so they really need a CD buff or something if SE wants to keep it revolving around rng.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

Imo they should allow the CD for draw to be halved if the player doesn't use the card ( doesn't spread, RR, or draw it )
So that way they would have an easier time drawing another card instead of wasting it on a combo.
You can have the perfect RR but not the perfect card for tht situation = you either waste ur RR, spread or shuffle.
Really looking grim for raid stuff so they really need a CD buff or something if SE wants to keep it revolving around rng.

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It took playing it and seeing what the new skills do. AST is giving too much up for something SCH can do already with Selene.
The 5 second and 15 second buff extender abilities aren't really doing enough to compensate for what can go wrong with AST.

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People say AST is such awesome support that he doesnt need heal or dps, but all i see is in BEST CASE a 5% speed buff AE for 20 secs every minute.

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Originally Posted by Nague

"i heal every dungeon to 60" is not a qualification for AST, my scholar can heal the story 8 mans solo and half asleep, story is easy in this xpack.

People say AST is such awesome support that he doesnt need heal or dps, but all i see is in BEST CASE a 5% speed buff AE for 20 secs every minute.
The freaking faery can do that too.



Maybe if card CDs get halved the class would be more interesting.
and rework lightspeed the noob trap skill, which does nothing but decrease troughput by 25%.

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I went back to fcob, some ex primals ( Longggg q time)
To try a few times and it was pretty hard. I have no problem healing them with whm but as an ast its really hard to "fix" other ppl's mistakes while trying to do ur card management lol.
I wonder y the devs made ast really underwhelming cuz even ur benefic proc for benefic 2 costs mp despite the insta cast.
T12 flames of rebirth aoe healing is hard cuz helios is just too weak = bring whm or sch instead.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

It took playing it and seeing what the new skills do. AST is giving too much up for something SCH can do already with Selene.
The 5 second and 15 second buff extender abilities aren't really doing enough to compensate for what can go wrong with AST.

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Yeah, atm sch+whm will always be better than ast+ whm/ sch.
Ast will be left out till se gives them a CD buff or a potency increase in their cards.

Nocturnal Sect is useless.

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Originally Posted by Shamirah

Nocturnal Sect is useless.

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Imo it is better then Regen Stance.

5% potency boost
Aspect benefic instant cast 250 potency heal +250 potency shield
Has both a Medica and a Succor.

Huge con
Destroys SCH galvanize buffs >_<

Yeah the issue is that to me, with how the damage are dealt in the dungeon/trials... it feels like the hots are better than a weak shield. Plus the hots stack with WHM hots... enjoy the 1k tick.

I don't know. Maybe i'm just used to playing with diurnal instead of nocturnal.

I only did dungeons so i maybe I am just wrong about Regen stance in trials.

Imo
Aspect benefic Shield>Aspect benefic Regen
Noct version is basically a lustrate with normal gcd but no cooldown.

But
Helios-Aoe Regen>Helios Shield

I haven't had a chance to test properly, do nocturnal shield and galvanize always overwrite each other, or does only the most potent one take effect? I know sch will only overwrite eachother's galvanize if the new one has more shielding on it than whatever the old one had left, leaving stronger critshields intact.

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Originally Posted by LycorisSelunis

I haven't had a chance to test properly, do nocturnal shield and galvanize always overwrite each other, or does only the most potent one take effect? I know sch will only overwrite eachother's galvanize if the new one has more shielding on it than whatever the old one had left, leaving stronger critshields intact.

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I think they just always overwrite each other >_<.

Oh about our shield... does it double if we crit like SCH ?

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Originally Posted by Shamirah

Oh about our shield... does it double if we crit like SCH ?

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Nope it doesn't multiply but in exchange it is instant cast.

NOCT + SCH is flat out horrible (after learning that shields overwrite each other regardless of potency)

Well only our benefict aspect is instant. maybe that's why I always thought it was a bad stance. Meh. I guess you are right tho.

Btw in french, the trait for benefict 2 says that it should remove its cast time AND its mana cost. But it does only remove the cast... i hope it'll remove the mana cost too or they should increase the %...

Also, I think they should buff our potency back to the same as WHM/SCH for our non aspected spell and change the +5% potency of nocturnal stance and give it +5% crit to make it balance.

More things I find it hard to test on my own- does the %haste from diurnal also affect the hots/dots as per the new haste rules?

compare a regen effect of your WHM and AST with the same stats

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Originally Posted by LycorisSelunis

More things I find it hard to test on my own- does the %haste from diurnal also affect the hots/dots as per the new haste rules?

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Haste=/=Spell Speed, so no.

I imagine due to AST weaker but more immediate healing, there's less over-healing being done, which would improve mp conservation quite a bit. Is this assumption correct?

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Originally Posted by Eggnook24

I imagine due to AST weaker but more immediate healing, there's less over-healing being done, which would improve mp conservation quite a bit. Is this assumption correct?

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Lower over healing done doesn't decrease MP consumption directly; effective and efficient healing does.

The assumption that because AST's heals have lower potency will result in less potential over healing is correct; however, just like all SCH/WHM, the potential for wasting MP is just as much a factor if played poorly.

AST actually has a very nice HP/MP ratio on their cures, but they lack a way to increase that potency (PoM, DS, ET, DT, etc.).

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Originally Posted by Aphel

Get to level 57/58, go heal The Vault last boss and open your eyes people. Your lightspeed 'fast heals' which is on a 150sec cooldown ain't gonna cut it.

The party takes so much AOE damage (during last phase every 3-5 secs he AOES on top of smashing the tank) that what you need is raw healing/mitigation. At that point your priority is to keep everyone alive, not to have your fancy cards reduce TP cost.

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I must agree with this statement completely. Running this dungeon a few times I find myself taxed from that last boss a little bit during his AOE onslaught.... and I've mained Scholar for well over a year and know it inside out and backwards (especially if you include my hiatus).

I think well played AST can heal through it for sure, but the mediocre ones will hit a brick wall.

Yep the massive combos are nice but when your entire party gets smashed to 20% health because of AOE/mechanics/fails, AST has very little tools to get the team back up quickly. Even Collective Unconscious (Instantcast, 90sec CD, 150 potency for 18sec in Diurnal Sect), is lolworthy because it cancels as soon as you cast or move.

And for the Noct version of that skill..........really? 10% damage mitigation for 18secs, and you can't move/cast. In what encounter would it be useful enough for you to be a freaking statue for 18 whole seconds and not cast anything at all, just for that 10% mitigation?

After healing the vault final boss a few times all i can say is its back breaking when ur teammates screw up. Its nearly impossible to keep up with the tether dmg/ raid wide dmg while trying to dps during the fire orbs.
Its like u have to save allllll ur mp just to heal last phase. Cuz when shit hits the fan we don't have annnny kind of healing potency increase skill to heal thru those tough times.
If i was whm i'd simply use medica 2 / regen with divine vent or seal.
:( and my gear was pretty up to date with tht dungeon.

I swear all this SUPER AOE DMG need STRONG HEALS NOW design makes it hard to conserve mp as ast. Its either u spam helios etc or cast syrn on a dps while benefic bombing other dps/ tank then top off with essential dignity. If you don't have ur mp regen skill up after all tht its gonna be rough lol.
Saving ewer combo for urself for the whole fight isn't good cuz u could instead be buffing ppl. But getting the ewer combo mid fight is luck of the "draw" lol....

I can tell you now, even as SCH, some of the later dungeons past The Vault are tough to heal through due to fails. It's possible, but only because I have "oops" buttons like Indomitability, Deployment Tactics, and Whispering Dawn.

AST is going to have a very hard time healing the boss of Aetherochemical and beyond. It's very unforgiving if your group derps, even as WHM/SCH. Nevermind having time to draw and place Card buffs; your concentration is going to be solely on keeping people alive. Even as SCH, I'm finding it difficult to DPS on some of these fights.

There are many encounters where seeing people below 20% is a reoccurring trend. Gear will make this easier, but until you and the group you're in is overgeared, I see healing on AST to be a constant struggle unless your group plays flawlessly

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

I must agree with this statement completely. Running this dungeon a few times I find myself taxed from that last boss a little bit during his AOE onslaught.... and I've mained Scholar for well over a year and know it inside out and backwards (especially if you include my hiatus).

I think well played AST can heal through it for sure, but the mediocre ones will hit a brick wall.

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And ppl say lol dungeons r nothing they r so easy, these dungeons r supposed to prep u for endgame, but with this sheer amount of burst aoe dmg it makes healing as ast less and less attractive.
We are support healers......
Why r we reduced to 2nd rate healers when we r the ONLY healer in the party lol ( 4 mans ) that require heals that of whm or sch. Its like healing on hardmode cuz whm and sch was too easy & had tools to get out of jams.

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

Snip.

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Its like they expect asts to play at a WAY higher level than whm/ sch.
Ridiculous when u do everything in ur power & ur party are doing mechanics right but ppl drop below 20% due to not enough healing power to heal ppl thru aoes.
Over gearing/ leveling the dungeons won\\'t make much of a difference imo as the core idea is tht u will get rekt if u r not close to if not perfect.

I can only imagine how hard alex hm will be with how ast is currently set up.

Nocturnal Sect at the moment at least in 4 player content seems like a surefire way to get your party killed. The 5% increased healing potency is nice but pray to god RNG won't bite you in the behind when everyone in the PT is low hp.
I feel what most likely happened was that AST was too strong during development and they toned it down too much for release.

Got 50 and tried a few dungeons. Was more taxing, but some of that could have been the tanks(Which included a drk and another tank who was clearly messing around. He ran with the sandshark in hm mines, just because he could.) Noct stance was a bit interesting, because while diurnal is pretty blatantly whm lite noct is less sch lite and more a hybrid of the two, because you have your versions of medica, succor, adlo and cure II. Which you need more tools of course, because no fairy, but it makes for a interesting mix.