Is it time for SE to give PLDs a good bump in terms of DPS?

It will de doable with any combo. Just not in the same way.
Like I said, If the PLD does less damage than the WAR but allows the healers to do more damage because less healing will be necessary, the overall damage of the party will be the same.

So, it's not important if all tanks don't do the same DPS as long as their utility offer something else.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

Sure, but they can't make tanks so different that content is not doable with any combo. Think about 2.0 when people would bail in DF if both tanks were WARs and most coil groups were double PLD.

SE is designing jobs so they all bring similar benefits to the raid as a whole.

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2.0 where playing WAR took some skill, gear, timing and class knowledge. Coil was completely doable with a WAR MT, and I know this because I did it. Doing it as a WAR wasn't face-roll easy like it was with the Paladin though, so a mediocre PLD could do it, but it took a good WAR to keep up... and there weren't many.

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Originally Posted by Paikis

2.0 where playing WAR took some skill, gear, timing and class knowledge. Coil was completely doable with a WAR MT, and I know this because I did it. Doing it as a WAR wasn't face-roll easy like it was with the Paladin though, so a mediocre PLD could do it, but it took a good WAR to keep up... and there weren't many.

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You got carried by exceptional healers (source: WAR'd up to T5, realized I was literally just stressing out my healers, switched to PLD until WAR got buffed). WAR took 0 skill - you sat on 5 stacks, waited for a big hit, and then hit IB. Then you built 5 again to repeat the same process. Path didn't even exist, Vengeance didn't exist outside of just popping it on CD or for big packs to do more damage, SC was a waste of Wrath unless you had Infuriate after spending the 5 Wrath on SC because of how Wrath used to work, etc. etc. You were basically playing with a penalty with a WAR in the party, which wasn't a very good feeling when you chose WAR as your main.

Thankfully all that changed, though it did sort of homogenize the two tanks rather than make WAR's mitigation more unique/meaningful. That's a completely different discussion, though, so I guess we should be happy they're changing things up a bit for all 3 tanks in the expansion.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

You got carried by exceptional healers (source: WAR'd up to T5, realized I was literally just stressing out my healers, switched to PLD until WAR got buffed). WAR took 0 skill - you sat on 5 stacks, waited for a big hit, and then hit IB. Then you built 5 again to repeat the same process. Path didn't even exist, Vengeance didn't exist outside of just popping it on CD or for big packs to do more damage, SC was a waste of Wrath unless you had Infuriate after spending the 5 Wrath on SC because of how Wrath used to work, etc. etc. You were basically playing with a penalty with a WAR in the party, which wasn't a very good feeling when you chose WAR as your main.

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This. I played a WAR pre-2.1 also. Switched to PLD and it was noticeable instantly how much less damage I took. Literally every person I hear claiming WAR MT is as viable as PLD ignores the good and incredibly overgeared healers with them. The argument is kind of lost when a healer claims healing a WAR is just fine when they are about 95%+ BIS.

To be fair 2.0 WAR wasn't bad in the sense that you wouldn't want to bring one in T5, because it still had Storm's Eye. It was just a terrible main tank.

I would reckon you'd wanna bring a 2.0 WAR to T2 and T5. T1 debatable. T4, that's when double PLD made the most sense to me.

T1 didn't really matter, but could be cheesed extremely early on with 2x PLD due to WAR basically getting its face teared into unless you milked it with cures.

T2 WAR had it's up sides because of SE, but 2x PLD also gave you 2 backup silences and eliminated the need for 2x BRD as many groups often did anyway.

T4 WAR was actually quite good at, simply because of the massive AOE aggro that OP generated on top of actually dealing damage. Obviously a WAR would fall flat like a pancake tanking Dreadnaughts, but that's why PLD existed.

T5 was... weird? WAR certainly couldn't MT it unless for some reason you wanted to prove your group was really good at carrying you, but they were ok on OT. SE, as mentioned, was pretty valuable damage-wise (though under appreciated at the time). Where WAR kind of lost its flavor was when it actually had to tank snakes... and couldn't stunlock Dreadknights... and soaked the balls in the last phase like a pillow getting pounded with bricks. 2x PLD was all around safer, despite lacking the utility of SE, since groups weren't really too concerned about tank damage way back when.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

You got carried by exceptional healers (source: WAR'd up to T5, realized I was literally just stressing out my healers, switched to PLD until WAR got buffed). WAR took 0 skill - you sat on 5 stacks, waited for a big hit, and then hit IB. Then you built 5 again to repeat the same process. Path didn't even exist, Vengeance didn't exist outside of just popping it on CD or for big packs to do more damage, SC was a waste of Wrath unless you had Infuriate after spending the 5 Wrath on SC because of how Wrath used to work, etc. etc. You were basically playing with a penalty with a WAR in the party, which wasn't a very good feeling when you chose WAR as your main.

Thankfully all that changed, though it did sort of homogenize the two tanks rather than make WAR's mitigation more unique/meaningful. That's a completely different discussion, though, so I guess we should be happy they're changing things up a bit for all 3 tanks in the expansion.

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Originally Posted by Kaonis

This. I played a WAR pre-2.1 also. Switched to PLD and it was noticeable instantly how much less damage I took. Literally every person I hear claiming WAR MT is as viable as PLD ignores the good and incredibly overgeared healers with them. The argument is kind of lost when a healer claims healing a WAR is just fine when they are about 95%+ BIS.

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I'm sure my healers were good. But I'm also sure that they told me they prefered me to tank as a WAR because it was better at handling the tank-buster hits and the rest of the time there was no real danger of any tank dieing because auto-attacks were easily healed (turn 1 being the only time they prefered me to play as PLD). Reducing a hit by 2k is only better than healing 3.5-4k afterwards if you get killed by not reducing it.

I remember arguing about this at the time (pre-2.1). It was me and maybe 3-4 other guys who had bothered to get a full set of penta-melded gryphonskin gear as well as Bravura Zenith saying it was fine, and everyone else trying to tell us that WAR sucked and wasnt viable. Turns out everyone who was saying WAR was bad were gearing their WAR like a PLD or playing it as their less-geared alt. They just had the standard Bravura and were gearing for VIT and then wondering why their pathetic little Inner Beasts weren't keeping them alive. Even the devs said that they were doing it wrong.

Turns out that being able to heal yourself for 3.5-4k on a crit is actually pretty good. The rest of the changes in 2.1 were OK, but I really dislike the Inner Beast change.

Oh well, complaints from another time. I'll give the DRK a shot and see which tank I like the feel of more.

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Originally Posted by Paikis

nonsensical stuff

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No really. What the hell. Healing is just way worse than applying a damage reduction for anything that matters. Also pre 2.1 healing 3.5k -- care to show that ? Somehow i have big doubt about it. For one you are assuming it crits, good luck relying on that, for second, even with that, it wasn't that much. Inner beast is a much, much better ability now, period.

"Reducing a hit by 2k is only better than healing 3.5-4k afterwards if you get killed by not reducing it." That's exactly the point. Who care when it's not life threatening ? Seriously ?

So we've touched on the state of things in 2.0... How do they stack up now between WAR and PLD on the cusp of Heavensward?

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Originally Posted by Paikis

Stuff

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2.0 WAR was awful because it didn't have any mitigation. You were pretty much a PLD with Shield Oath and no cooldowns. You had to hope that you didn't get blown up by tank busters, because all you could do was heal after it, which is useless when you died in one hit. A PLD could take the same hit with a cooldown active and take way less damage.

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Originally Posted by Paikis

Turns out that being able to heal yourself for 3.5-4k on a crit is actually pretty good. The rest of the changes in 2.1 were OK, but I really dislike the Inner Beast change.

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3.5-4k on a crit healed changed to 1.1-1.3k on a crit healed, plus taking 20% off a Death Sentence, cleave and/or auto-attack within 6 seconds. That's not even in the same ballpark. You have to consider if you DIDN'T get a crit, which was 70% of the time; your "big move" is you just healed yourself for less than an auto-attack's worth of damage. Pretty crappy compared to guaranteed getting 3k+ mitigation out of it and some healing out of it.

Also please enlighten the rest of the class how well IB would handle Revelation/Akh Morn/Flatten in lower iLVLs without echo. The devs would have had to make the one thing tanks have to do to survive, put up CDs for tank killers, even easier to compensate.

When two JPs WARs tanked Twintania before the WAR updates they were cheered and praised. So yes it was doable but was way more complicated then bringing a PLD at the time. Plus most groups singled tanked t5 - t7 - t8 and t9.

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Originally Posted by Paikis

Wat

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Then you get tank busters and auto attacked in a second and instantly die. Boy, that 3-4 k inner beast worked well there. (And it happened...a lot.)

Meanwhile, the PLD tank just popped sentinel and laughed the whole time.

2.0 WAR sucked. The whole "Yoshi meant for us to use Dex!" thing that followed was people being naive to how much it sucked. You can't even justify how it was remotely similar to tanking on a PLD it was just because how easy it was to get crushed.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

Then you get tank busters and auto attacked in a second and instantly die. Boy, that 3-4 k inner beast worked well there. (And it happened...a lot.)

Meanwhile, the PLD tank just popped sentinel and laughed the whole time.

2.0 WAR sucked. The whole "Yoshi meant for us to use Dex!" thing that followed was people being naive to how much it sucked. You can't even justify how it was remotely similar to tanking on a PLD it was just because how easy it was to get crushed.

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B..Bu...Bu....But...WARRIOR IS STRONK! xD

personally I would rather have a tank deal less damage to take less damage and keeping hate. While DPS on tanks still helps a fight if they cant keep hate or just take tons of damage what help are they to the party.

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Originally Posted by Volker_Mateus

personally I would rather have a tank deal less damage to take less damage and keeping hate. While DPS on tanks still helps a fight if they cant keep hate or just take tons of damage what help are they to the party.

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Besides the first 10 seconds of a fight nobody is stealing hate off a good tank but another good tank.

Damage is mitigated by stances and CDs. Proper usage allows tanks to DPS and mitigate.

Tanks DPS by default the difference between good and bad tanks is how much DPS you can contribute while still controlling the fight and damage you take.

Good tanks time CDs to maximize their effectiveness. For instance during most boss battles you are better off using Rampart 15 seconds before a big hit then using it right before the big hit. This does 2+ things. First it starts you timer which is some fights guarantees its up again in time for another big hit. 2nd you take less damage leading up to the big hit so you healers can prep better. Sometimes you can also mitigate two large moves. Take T13 Phase 2. If you pop Rampart right when the tethers disappear from the first set of balls, the CD effect will be up for the breath and still up for Flatten+breath. Using rampart effectively there allows for you to stay in sword oath, at least up until flatten.

DPSing as a tank is the challenge since the rest of a tanks job is extremely elementary and boring.