The random rule is not okay

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Originally Posted by Milleus

How have I insulted you?

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By continually trying to frame the argument as "some players just want everything to be easy"? Acknowledging that all one star cards makes it impossible, but making sure to add "which hardly ever happens" to make it seem like I'm talking about a one-in-a-million occurrence? Nevermind the fact that JayCommon has posted numerous hands showing just that in the span of a night.

Again, this isn't about making things easier, this is about making the rules affect both persons in a match instead of just one person and leaving the other in a unique position to win the majority of the time. Whether or not it makes it easier is irrelevant to the point. If they still draw their god-tier hands, I would be perfectly fine with that. To reiterate, I've already beaten them and farmed them, even without the Random rule affecting them. But the Random rule -should- affect them, same as every other rule that already does.

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Originally Posted by Hasty_Touch

Game mechanics do apply, it's just that it doesn't look like it is because of the smaller decks.

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This isn't introducing a rule. This is a rule that's already in place that doesn't affect the NPC one iota, compared to every other playing rule in the game which does. You can say that it "does apply", but it really doesn't. As SummonerSenah pointed out, in what way is it random if the NPCs have a deck of 6 and occasionally, they go with 1 2 3 4 6 sometimes instead of 1 2 3 4 5, something other NPCs already do even -without- the random rule?

It could potentially make it easier, sure enough, depending on how you went about it. But I'm not saying give them all one star cards. I'm not saying give them all two star cards. All they need to do is at least double the size of their original card list with 3 star cards to make the NPC's deck affected by Random.

I think another big issue I've experienced is that the computer seems to place their cards around your hand, even with the "All Open" not being in place. It's bad enough that majority of the time your hand is random garbage, but it's an even bigger issue when the computer can also reference your hand, when you can't see theirs.

My thought process when posting that was..
if you want it to negatively affect the NPC, it could potentially make it easier (as you've pointed out), and made a dropping comment "i guess these days everybody just wants it easy".

I was not very clear in showing what I was thinking about and I guess that may have inadvertently insulted you.
I apologize for it, and I hope you'll understand that it was never my intention to insult you.

I will edit my previous post.

EDIT: as mentioned below, asking for fairness will make it easier. I hope this helps you to see why, to me, it has to do with easiness.
This isn't a twist of argument.. just a thought process that wasn't shown clearly.

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Originally Posted by Madigari

All they need to do is at least double the size of their original card list with 3 star cards to make the NPC's deck affected by Random.

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Originally Posted by Madigari

Again, this isn't about making things easier, this is about making the rules affect both persons in a match instead of just one person and leaving the other in a unique position to win the majority of the time. Whether or not it makes it easier is irrelevant to the point. If they still draw their god-tier hands, I would be perfectly fine with that. To reiterate, I've already beaten them and farmed them, even without the Random rule affecting them. But the Random rule -should- affect them, same as every other rule that already does.

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By applying your solution, we introduce more 3 star cards to the NPC's deck so that the random rule is more fair (in terms of game mechanics apply). By doing so, the NPC will have a higher probability of getting "crappier" cards, e.g. a full set of 3 star", compared to the current situation. So while it does seem more fair, it's also made easier because of probability.

The solution provided is basically asking for both fairness and easiness even though you're insistent that easiness has nothing to do with this.
I hope you can see why some people think that you want things easier - because the solution was a bad example.

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Originally Posted by Hasty_Touch

By applying your solution, we introduce more 3 star cards to the NPC's deck so that the random rule is more fair (in terms of game mechanics apply). By doing so, the NPC will have a higher probability of getting "crappier" cards, e.g. a full set of 3 star", compared to the current situation. So while it does seem more fair, it's also made easier because of probability.

The solution provided is basically asking for both fairness and easiness even though you're insistent that easiness has nothing to do with this.
I hope you can see why some people think that you want things easier - because the solution was a bad example.

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Well... technically, when one side is essentially ignoring the rules of the other (i.e. only one 4 or 5-star card), it's essentially cheating. This means that being fair in that case, which does mean no cheating, would be making it easier to win lol. In the case of TT and the NPCs, there is no separation of "fair" and "easy" ONLY because of circumstance. It'd be like someone hacking the game and setting it so they always roll 98 on everything, but not 99 because they think it's "fair" to allow people to win, even if it's a very rare occurrence lol. I don't think anyone would argue that such a situation makes it difficult for you to win, and if the hack wasn't used, would ease your chances of winning.

The bottom line is just that the NPCs play at such an unfair advantage that it serves as nothing more than frustration and arbitrary gating (as though the low LOW chance of getting the 4-5 star card that you want wasn't bad enough). It's not even fun nor beneficial in any way. This would be like SE literally making it impossible for you to win a fight, simply because you got a bad RNG roll upon engaging a boss. Oops, you rolled a 97... you need a 98 in order to remove the invincibility of the boss. Lose the fight and try again. Then when you get the 98, and manage to beat the boss, the game decides that you need a 99 to win any sort of reward. GG, gonna go DIAF.

Honestly though, Random is not as bad as people make it out to be, for what it is. Random can actually be VERY enjoyable when played on even ground (like other players). It can certainly be frustrating, but that's where other rules come into play. The Plus rule complicates things, but makes them IMMENSELY better IMO. The Plus rule is so good, in fact, that it can usually make even Random or Chaos enjoyable. Not joking. If SE is that adamant about keeping the NPCs with only the good cards, then AT LEAST put on additional beneficial rules (like Plus, Ascension, Same, etc). These rules most certainly can backfire on us, but at least it'd make even a 1-star card a potential game changer and give the player a chance of winning a little more often. Plus (and other rules) makes us think, it makes a Random/Chaos game feel a little more controlled (since it's already not, given the NPCs hand), and we can actually have a little fun in the process.

Right now, if we win against Rowena, Landenel, or Swift (among others), it's not going to give us a sense of fun or accomplishment, but frustration. Simply because we then worry about a second bout of RNG in whether or not a card dropped that we wanted. If you don't get it, you're at the mercy of RNG again. Rinse and repeat the 2-fold RNG success every 50 seconds. You'll never look at ANY match against Rowena or Swift, and say "that was fun". I can certainly say that about having played Random and Chaos against another player though. I can say that about either Random or Chaos and another of the previously mentioned rules against another player. But that's because it was a fair match up. The occasionally stupid AI might be the reason why it's set up the way it is, but then they could still just add another rule to some of these NPCs to give the player a fighting chance against RNG that determines whether we win or lose before you even begin.

TL;DR: Fair will always mean making something easier, NPCs need mutually beneficial rules like Plus added to Random, and Rowena is a bitch.

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Originally Posted by Hasty_Touch

The solution provided is basically asking for both fairness and easiness even though you're insistent that easiness has nothing to do with this.
I hope you can see why some people think that you want things easier - because the solution was a bad example.

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The only thing the solution asks for is for the Random rule to apply as its description claim, and as its mechanics are (when they are in effect):
to affect both parties.

Most the people who argue that the Random rule is not working correctly for NPCs are forerunners when it comes to card collecting.
Beating these NPCs is not an issue for us, nor do we require the fights made easier.
Things made easier has nothing to do with this. You are still trying to make an argument where there is none.

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Originally Posted by Hasty_Touch

Aeyis, are you really going to be that kind of person?

Take a chill pill. I'm just calling it as I see it.
You're much too opinionated to accept the fact that there are people who like the current system.
If it upsets you that much, perhaps you shouldn't be here.

Edit: you can keep bashing all you want, but it's not gonna change a thing.

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The bolded part was correct. But it does not change the validity of my argumentation. I am not too opinionated on the matter, however. It is because of yourself and Mileus blatantly not only ignoring our arguments, and facts; but changing them so they benefit your none-existant argument.
All for the sake of winning some argument, it seems.

The curreny system is broken. If you want to be masochist and like it, go ahead. But don't ask the rest of the community to be.



You still havent answered my question. Since the argument you attempt to make is ''you are just asking for things to be made easier'', well then; how difficult is it for you?
How much of a challenge do the harder NPCs give you? How many have you beaten, have you collected all their cards?
Gotten a 100 wins against each of them?
While normally a fallacy, in this particular discussion it is a very valid question, I think.

With my current card pool, it is already easy to win against any NPC. (even Swift) Less so against the Random rule, because it can become literally impossible to win depending on your dealt cards.
However if the Random rule was not in effect I could probably get a 95% winratio (or even near 100%) against Landanel and Rowena. How good would your ratio be?
Because if even without the Random rule you would still find a challenge in defeating these NPC; then the point you are trying to argue is even more none-existant.


Now, an actual opinion of mine, to contrast the above logic:
To me it seems like you don't actually play TT at a level high enough to be a good judge of what provides a natural challenge, and what is just a broken feature. You seem very much intent on avoiding detailed responses when it comes to TT's mechanics. Almost as if your only intent was to troll.

That is however, just my opinion. Unlike the part above.

Aeyis, Hasty is not here to make an argument.
He's trying to explain to Madigari that because of the example he has given, it has led to a misunderstanding (see my previous post and Welsper's post as well).
Please read the posts with more positivity. Not everyone is here to "pick a fight".

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

TL;DR: Fair will always mean making something easier, NPCs need mutually beneficial rules like Plus added to Random, and Rowena is a bitch.

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Welsper made a good point. Asking for something fair will mean making something easier, thus the misunderstand I had with Madigari (thank you for seeing that).
I've already apologized and I hope this will resolve this issue.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Angry wall of text.

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please note that throughout this whole discussion..
i have not "taken" any sides. I'm merely summarizing what has happened, explaining why there are two different points of view and why there's a misunderstanding. your belief is that the current system is broken, but hey, guess what, there are people that like it how it is. instead of trying to understand why there are people that enjoy it like how it is, you link them a MrHappy video telling them they should go learn the rules, question their credibility and hurl insults. You sir, are indeed, opinionated.

reviewing all your other posts i can safely conclude that the only troll here is you because you're mostly picking fight with others.
and i don't feed trolls so.. added to ignore :)

I am glad I'm not the only one who thought Landenel was total BS. Could not agree more with the OP, and it definitely should be made fair by at least forcing the NPC to follow its own damn rules, Square Enix... Seriously cannot stress that enough.

That aside, has anyone else gotten the feeling that some NPCs know what's in your hand despite it being a closed-hand game?

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

Not very much time has passed since Triple Triad made it's glorious release, and it’s quite possible that the random rule feels a bit more difficult due to the fact that players do not have enough cards just yet.

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The difficulty may come from the fact that NPCs "randomly" pick 5 cards from a potential 6-7.

The Random rule should exclude the card limit on us if NPCs are allowed to have multiple 4 and 5 star cards. The rule itself is not okay the way it is now, I should have a chance to have multiple 4 and 5 star cards too.

Random under 30 cards against Rowena was nearly impossible for me, and I have no issue with a couple NPCs being so difficult early on. They made some NPCs a joke to beat with basic cards that rewarded 5 star cards, so that evens out. Getting odin wasn't bad and I did it with a 30 card deck quite easily. Rowena with a 30 card deck was about a 30% win rate and about 30% draws. Now that I have 60+ cards Rowena is about 50% win 25%/draw/loss. I only get Gerolts, but the difficult from "Random" drastically decreases with the rarity limit going up, at least once you figure out the AIs faults. Removing the rarity restriction for the rule would remove the need for anyone to get 30+ cards

Rowena is probably the only NPC that can't be farmed with a 70%+ win rate after you get 60 cards. They should have alternate decks for NPCs to use with stronger cards and better AI based on your deck size (with added MGP of course). Otherwise you are stuck with just Rowena for a challenge.

Landanel is a joke. His "Random" ruleset is actually give me all 1 star cards and one 4 star card. I have 52 cards, so I know my deck isn't only 1 star cards. Meanwhile his deck is perfect. Also he has Fallen Ace which means when I do get a 5-star card I have to protect it like 1-star card because he can always defeat A. He of course doesn't have a single 5-star card in his pool so you can never use his Fallen Ace rule against him. Oh and the best part is, you either fight him or you have to farm Odin for his card but NOBODY DOES ODIN BECAUSE NOTHING ANYONE CARES ABOUT DROPS FROM ODIN.

This is incredibly stupid, several other NPCs have Random including the infamous Rowena but Landanel's card pool is designed to torture the player and so is his "Random" rule which ISN'T ACTUALLY RANDOM SINCE EVERY TIME I FACE HIM IT'S MY 1 STARS AGAINST HIS STUPID DECK. He has Odin and Bahamut and I'm being forced to use Mandragora and Coeurl, yeah this is fair. The other random NPCs aren't nearly as bad, even Rowena. Whoever designed Landanel should be told straight up that it's easy to design a fight that players can never win, see original Pandemonium Warden for more information. The trick is to design a fight which can be beaten with a certain amount of difficulty and right now Landanel is PW levels of impossible.

Also why is there no Forfeit button? It would be so much easier if I could just click Forfeit when I saw that my deck was yet again 1-star cards rather than waste time having to play a whole match which I'm going to lose at a 100% rate. It would make losing to the Random NPCs much faster if I could just forfeit my "random" all 1-star hand and get on with the next match.

I think the deck that the Random rule gives us should be similar to the "Recommended" built deck. It would still be random, but at the very least be made up of the highest cards that your current rank allows. Another viable option is to add additional npcs that give out a certain card. If someone really wants to endure the unique "challenge" that the Random rule offers, then more power to them. However, different players enjoy different rules, for different reasons. It would be nice to have a bit more variety available. The drop rate is a challenge enough.

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Originally Posted by Savader

That aside, has anyone else gotten the feeling that some NPCs know what's in your hand despite it being a closed-hand game?

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I think so, I've had a lot of games against Vorsaile, and he has a few cards with 9's on the side, kan e senna, minfilia, cid. I delay playing my bahamut expecting him to play ramuh or mog to give it ascencion so it can overturn those 9's and somehow every one of these opportunities is missed because It is either his LAST card or he never plays it, as if he knows the ramuh/mog will ascend my bahamut into taking his other cards.

Feel so frustrating losing on RANDOM rule for over an hour. Have to deal with RNG on getting good cards, then another RNG stage to get the loot drops. Already had bad RNG experience on titan extreme - lost roll on 30 gullfaxi and 6 nightmares (after patch 2.5). Wasted 6 hours non-stop hunting 1 particular atma (after patch 2.51)

Moreover, with the way of how current tournament works, the desire to collect all cards is basically vanished.

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Originally Posted by Firepower

I think so, I've had a lot of games against Vorsaile, and he has a few cards with 9's on the side, kan e senna, minfilia, cid. I delay playing my bahamut expecting him to play ramuh or mog to give it ascencion so it can overturn those 9's and somehow every one of these opportunities is missed because It is either his LAST card or he never plays it, as if he knows the ramuh/mog will ascend my bahamut into taking his other cards.

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Good example, here's another. And this one happens to me a lot, so I know for a fact the NPC has knowledge of your hand in closed-hand matches.

Swift is one of the only NPC's that I still need a card from, so I hit his window every time I'm not in a duty. Chaos ruleset, nothing open. Every time Swift starts and has Thancred chosen as his first card, he puts him in the top-right corner of the grid, so his high numbers are the only ones out (7 to the west, 8 to the south)

He does this every single time he gets Thancred to start.... Except for when he knows that my first card chosen is the only card in my hand that can't beat Thancred's 3 facing to the east. Then he puts Thancred in the top-middle spot as a giant middle finger to me because he literally knows my card that will be chosen and that it won't beat that 3. It of course won't beat the 8 or the 7 either.

And usually I'll put my card somewhere else in hopes to take that 3 next turn, and he blocks it.

I mean, it does seem like they purposely made the AI dumb if you keep getting wrecked, so eventually it will do something that seems completely stupid to let you win... They still know what you have, though.

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Originally Posted by 314159265358979323846264338327

The difficulty may come from the fact that NPCs "randomly" pick 5 cards from a potential 6-7.

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This. I don't think it's that bad, but I do think it's obvious to anyone it's the most challenging mode as is. Either ease up on those NPC's decks and/or raise the reward for beating them. Maybe even throw a small chance to get cards on a draw, even if it's put in as a lower drop rate than getting it on a win.

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Originally Posted by 314159265358979323846264338327

The difficulty may come from the fact that NPCs "randomly" pick 5 cards from a potential 6-7.

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You hit the nail on the head with this one.

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

Not very much time has passed since Triple Triad made it's glorious release, and it’s quite possible that the random rule feels a bit more difficult due to the fact that players do not have enough cards just yet.

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Grekumah, please log in to FFXIV (using 30 or 60 cards) and go fight Landenel. Once you do that then please come back and tell us if you really think that the random rule "feels a bit difficult due to not having enough cards".

It's amazing this flew over testers heads to be honest. I'd say it would be perfectly fine for PvP TT. Or at least if both sides had upgraded to 2* or 3*.

If they don't get rid of it on NPCs they should at the very least make their card-pool a bit more balanced. It would be broken in the opposite direction if their pool was exactly like ours (considering how often their moves counter common logic), but they at least need more weak-mid-tier spots.

There is nothing wrong with the random rule even against the NPCs who have a big advantage over you... this actually makes Triple Triad more of a challenge instead of every NPC handing over their cards to you on a plate (which is kind of the case with the majority of them) it's suppose to be difficult to win against some NPCs whether its skill based or luck based, both these NPC are the hardest ones in the game to beat which gives a challenge something which is going to last awhile in the game, you can't expect to beat everything straight away. It just seems everyone wants the game to be easy without thinking oh this npc is a bitch to beat but I will eventually win and get my cards that I need (if you really wanted it you would do so)

Lets say they do make the random rule different for these NPCs they will be beaten quickly and cards are gotten in a day or so then which NPCs are left to be beaten? None because all the NPCs are too easy to win now. At the moment yes the rule favours the NPCs which it should do as they have the advantage like a casino does in their card games "the house will have the advantage in odds" this is normal and to be expected this makes them difficult to win and makes Triple Triad last longer as a whole, if they changed the NPC rule for random this ruins any challenge and difficulty of TT NPCs and makes the replay value next to nothing to come back later and try to finally win them.

Meh too many players complain and SE always nerfs stuff in the game which ruins parts of the game for players like myself :/ Keeping the rule for the NPC as it is does not ruin the game for anyone else players are just whining and want everything easier... its like 2nd coil T6-T8 it was a difficult challenge which would of lasted but players whine and it becomes too easy and then the content doesn't last as long.

Landenel is seriously so broken. I'm at 58/60 cards, and nearly 3/5 pulls are always one stars. Case and point:


http://i.imgur.com/UUHCOhG.png

I've spent the last hour trying to play him, and out of almost 30 matches, I maybe scrapped 2 wins, 2 draws, and 26 losses.


This is not okay. And this is not coil either.

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Originally Posted by ZellosWilder

its like 2nd coil T6-T8 it was a difficult challenge which would of lasted but players whine and it becomes too easy and then the content doesn\\'t last as long.

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Mechanics and probably rigging are two vastly different things.

When it comes to random rule set 30-60 cards are present and only 5 of which are chosen semi-randomly based on restrictions on the player\\'s deck.

Now the NPC how ever only has 7-9 cards in his/her card pool of which only 3-4 are selected semi-randomly and one- two are always present depending in the NPC.

So as you can see the probability and statistics of the random rule set are anything but random for the NPC and ergo compleatly rigged against the player character.

I also really hate Random we have to have 30-60 cards and they only have 1 deck and keep getting the same cards all all we get most of the time are the lowest cards possible, I don't play triple triad anymore cause of this! And i don't get many of the other rules either! and they need to remove the timer on npcs where do these npc got be anyways, no where, I can see timer on in "pvp and Tournaments" but not npc match some players like me can be bad at math and can take longer to figure stuff out! This timer doesn't help me at all...

And has for "pvp and Tournaments" that i'll never be able to play in cause i'm to slow! And so i'll never get the card/s that are only gotten from Tournaments that won't be fun or someone like me who won't be able to win that much!

I've broken 60 cards, thinking this would get better: It does not. It's still just as hard and as broken with more than 60 cards. It's unreal.

I don't even play this card game anymore cause random and a few other rules sucks! NPC need more cards if we are forced to have 30-60 cards they should have 30-60 cards.

Cause there are some players that sucks at on the fly math that this games needs not everyone can do math really fast in the time you give them so also need to remove that stupid time limit where to NPC have to be anywhere? they do nothing but say where they are, NPC do not need time limits! I could see the need for PvP matchs but again players like me will never really win so i never really play those either!

Random rule wasn't as bad for me until I got to Tataru in Heavensward. I hate Random, I hate Chaos and I hate the fact that they put those two together on an NPC that has a 2-3% drop rate on the last 2 NPC cards I need — I know they can also be obtained from Platinum packs, but that could take a while.
It's so RNG-based that I'm starting to get sick of it. I know it's meant to be hard, but I'd rather play against an NPC with a smarter AI or better cards than leave it up to luck. Not to mention the fact that she isn't available the whole time.

This isn't exactly any different from the random rule in FF8 though...it was actually worse there.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

This isn't exactly any different from the random rule in FF8 though...it was actually worse there.

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Except that you can stack your deck against random in FF8 by [Card-RF]ing all your junk cards before playing, stacking the deck in your favor much like the NPCs are doing here.

It's still not okay that they gave the Random rule to over half the NPCs in Heavensward after admitting the rule had issues on NPCs.

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Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

Except that you can stack your deck against random in FF8 by [Card-RF]ing all your junk cards before playing, stacking the deck in your favor much like the NPCs are doing here.

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Back in FFVIII you could also mess with regional rules to change them, so it wasn't that bad. Dunno how they work in this game — they're supposed to be regional but I've seen two NPCs in the same area with different rules. Also, some NPCs seem to be unaffected by this and they always have no regional rules.

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Originally Posted by Nyalia

It's still not okay that they gave the Random rule to over half the NPCs in Heavensward after admitting the rule had issues on NPCs.

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admitting what? its working as intended

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

admitting what? its working as intended

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Well, aside from the bug where chaos + random = same cards in the same order every time (did they ever fix that? I haven't had the combo in a while, so I don't know), they acknowledged that players don't like it. I didn't mean that there was an issue programmatically with random+NPCs (even though there is - they literally ignore it, not even randomizing from their small pool), I meant that the players had an issue with it and SE acknowledged it. Then they gave it to as many NPCs as they could.

When I saw the rule spread on the new NPCs, I felt almost as trolled as I had when I did the Zodiac Weapon quest, where you have to click okay in a pop-box that says you have a 99% chance of having to start from scratch if you proceed (it's lying, but totally trolling).

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Originally Posted by Nyalia

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if they would implement things which players would like, than alex normal would drop ilvl 300 stuff, every npc would have: a 1 star deck, no rules and 100% droprate and the game would be boring as hell after 1 day

random rule is cool and offers a varity of different actions while grinding for cards and god beware - players have to use their brains for winning (one of the worst things possible as it seems)

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

if they would implement things which players would like, than alex normal would drop ilvl 300 stuff, every npc would have: a 1 star deck, no rules and 100% droprate and the game would be boring as hell after 1 day

random rule is cool and offers a varity of different actions while grinding for cards and god beware - players have to use their brains for winning (one of the worst things possible as it seems)

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... huh? Most players like difficult content. This isn't about difficult content. This is about fun. The random rule is not fun.

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

...

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No, good sir, it's not. Random rule doesn't make TT challenging, it makes it, uh, random. No one wants to farm cards with low drop rate with a randomized deck.

The worst part comes when not only they add Random rule to most NPCs, but they also combine it with Chaos. Tell me, how do I use my brain when most of my games have at least 2 level 1 cards which are chosen to be played at random and my opponent has pretty good cards? I'm, of course, talking about Tataru 3.0. More than 1000 games have I played with her and only about 150-200 of them were wins because the AI made dumb mistakes. Do I have to get 2500 wins like I did to get Gaius card in order to see either Firion or Lightning? That'd take forever, at least with those rules.

Take a look at this game. It's a perfect example of why RNG ruins Triple Triad.

http://oi60.tinypic.com/35mkyh2.jpg
http://oi59.tinypic.com/2heep05.jpg

owning the hilda card is pretty good