I want an official response.

"They're not optional because I wants it precious"? Second post is right, anyone who thinks that they absolutely have to buy something if they want it has some serious entitlement issues and is in for a hard lesson IRL at some point.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Why the hell should a Collector's Edition exist? There is content locked up there in the form of mounts and minions (coeurl/fat chocobo/ behemoth minion) I see no complaints about this. I see no complaints about the fact you can upgrade to these on mogstation. But the first thing we'll complain about is a mount in cash shop, a minion in cash shop.

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This. Why are people not complaining about collector's edition upgrades? Maybe it needs to be put in its own category inside the shop for it to count.

Also found in this thread: strawmans. Strawmans everywhere.

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Originally Posted by Sholah

I'm aware of what SE has decided a sub gives us. I'm talking about what a sub is -supposed- to give you access to. That being the game. Not part of the game, the full game. Why are we paying a monthly subscription if it doesn't give us access to everything the game has to offer?

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Again sub fee gives us acess to servers you purchase the game and given an opportunity to play the game and whatever se decides to give us. If you want to play the whole I want everything the game has to offer than why an expansion? Clearly that says we have other parts of the game but making you pay for it

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Originally Posted by Craiger

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Another good example is Smartphones. If you're a tech head, which I am, you always want the latest and greatest. I was on a roller coaster ever since the OG Droid came out. Started selling "old" phones and buying a new one. Recently I became more stretched, and the only way to get the latest one I wanted was through a subsidized contract. I'm locked in, I have to force myself to not want the "new" phone because mine is "old." I use quotes because a 4 to 6 month phone in reality is not old. But at the rate new releases come, it seems it. What I'm saying is, people who are not interested in this thing would say who cares, someone who is invested in this thing can get frustrated that another new thing comes and sometimes you just can't get it. BTW, I'm agreeing with everything you're saying. If you want it, get it, if you can. Sometimes you might want it, might not be able to. Stuff happens.

I could never imagine I'd be so sick of reading the damn word "Optional".

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Originally Posted by Amused

These items are NOT OPTIONAL. They are essentially mandatory if you were, or are interested in that content. If you like minions, you're going to have to buy the minions. If you like mounts, you're going to have to buy the mount. If you like the idea of getting married in-game, you're going to have to buy the complete package otherwise you get a massively gutted experience.

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They're COMPLETELY optional. Nothing in FFXIV requires these items in order to complete an in game objective. If you're a minion hoarder and you decide to buy the minions that is YOUR decision, and it was in no way forced upon you. If you were actually Obi Wan, you'd be wise enough to see that. Instead you seem more like Anakin, you want everything you want and you don't wanna give anything up for it. Entitled basically.

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Originally Posted by Amused

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"But MOOOOOM, if you don't buy this for me, no one will think I'm cool!" mom, "no" <comes to forums to rant>

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Originally Posted by Amused

These items are NOT OPTIONAL.

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http://media.247sports.com/Uploads/A...11/3211339.gif

No, really, that's hilarious. Your game subscription pays only for access to the game servers and whatever content SE decides to put on those servers without any additional optional fees or services. Just like if you have a subscription to a magazine, you don't get merchandise the company sells for free just because you have a monthly subscription to their magazine.

All of this is in the game's TOS, just like it is in the TOS for every other MMO. If you don't like what they charge, so be it, don't buy it. Complain if you want to. But people need to stop acting like this stuff isn't optional; it is. Stop acting like you already payed for this content; you didn't. Stop acting like you have a right to any of this without paying extra, for extra stuff; you don't.

Okay, so across all these threads, there's a lot of dumb stuff. Going to correct some misconceptions.

-NOT OPTIONAL. Seriously, it is. The whole game is optional. Fancy mount? Optional. Glamours? Optional. Weddings? Optional. Final Coil? Optional. FFXIV is in no way an essential good. Medicine, shelter, food, all that shit is not optional. Literally everything to do with a video game is optional. "Because I want it" does not make it "not optional." It means it's an option you want.

-"My sub pays for the servers!" OR "Cash shop means more actual content for everyone!" Neither of these is strictly true. It's highly unlikely SE operates like this, really. The money you pay for your sub or your cash shop items goes into SE's bank account. After paying the company-wide essentials, like salaries for their legal and accounting teams, executive management, taxes, etc, Matsuda and the rest of the board decide what to do with the money. They might make boatloads of cash from FFXIV and only give the FFXIV team the bare minimum, instead putting most of the money the game made into developing XV or Project Flare or into acquisitions. It's likely though, that because XIV makes so much money, when Yoshi-P goes into a meeting with the board, he can argue that giving his team more money is a sound investment.

-"It's unethical/anti-consumer" A few things. First, cash shop isn't manipulative or coercive in any way. By this I mean, you simply lose out on content by not purchasing. This is unlike, say, Puzzles and Dragons, where you will struggle to advance without paying real money. It's also not random, which would be a significant problem. With the FFXIV cash shop, you pay for something, you get it. Randomness appeals to some innate human psychology that makes us want to spend more. Second point on this is that SE is under no obligation to make you happy. They do not answer to you, but to their shareholders. I don't know the exact laws of Japan, but that obligation to shareholders is legal as well. They could probably pressure Matsuda or other members of the board to step down. Their only "obligation" to keep you happy is so that you continue paying them money.

-Which brings me to my last point. If you're unhappy with this, unsubscribe. SE doesn't care at all whether or not you're happy, (I mean, they might as people, but as a company, nope) but whether or not you're paying your sub. I'm not saying this to mean "lol if you aren't happy get out", I mean to say that in the end, FFXIV is a product: it's end goal is not to please consumers, but to make money for SE's shareholders. If the Cash Shop means FFXIV makes more money, it will stay.

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Originally Posted by Trashy

-"My sub pays for the servers!" OR "Cash shop means more actual content for everyone!" Neither of these is strictly true.

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The point of "what the sub pays for" arguments isn't from the point of what the money is being used for, but rather what the customer is obligated to receive for their payment in accordance with TOS. Some people act as if their subscription entitles them to anything SE releases for the game, which is patently ridiculous.

Otherwise, the rest of your comment is spot-on.

http://myreactiongifs.com/gifs/thumbsupcomputerkid.gif

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

No. They are optional, no matter what way you people try to spin it. Optional is optional. Minions are not required to play the game. At all, and no. They are not content.

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Content is literally everything in the game. Its the definition of the word. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/content

Yes, minions are content, along with everything sold in the cash shop. If you play this game for anything other than raid progression, some things sold can actually be considered pay to win. winning is an abstract concept in a theme park MMO, I win by just logging into the game. FUN ACHIEVED

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Originally Posted by Gralna

"But MOOOOOM, if you don't buy this for me, no one will think I'm cool!" mom, "no" <comes to forums to rant>

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LOL! This had me rolling.

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Originally Posted by Peachy

If you play this game for anything other than raid progression, some things sold can actually be considered pay to win. winning is an abstract concept in a theme park MMO, I win by just logging into the game. FUN ACHIEVED

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Uhh, nooooooope. A themepark MMO, by design, is multiple sub-activities with win states or loss states, with win states usually yielding rewards and loss states usually yielding wasted time and not much else. Crafting an item worth a million gil is a win state. Getting your pentameld achievement is a win state. Killing Twintania or Nael is a win state. You can qualify a minion as a reward for a win state, but unless you're missing some lucrative Gotta Catch Em All! Achievement because 5 of the minions are in the cash shop, you aren't paying to 'win' anything because the minions don't represent victory.

Having more than one possible winstate (and even nonpermanent winstates since instances reset) doesn't mean you just get to make up your own, just like you don't go into Chess and make a cute configuration of your little black knights and suddenly declare "I win!" because you won an invisible game you invented in your mind separate from Chess that involved making your little Chess army look aesthetically pleasing.

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Originally Posted by Gralna

"But MOOOOOM, if you don't buy this for me, no one will think I'm cool!" mom, "no" <comes to forums to rant>

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It's funny that you're attempting to come off as more mature, yet you're the one acting like a child in this situation.

Once again.. people defending the idea of paying more on a subscription model... it just too perplexing. I definitely will lose hope in humanity.

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Originally Posted by ShinigamiZero

Once again.. people defending the idea of paying more on a subscription model... it just too perplexing. I definitely will lose hope in humanity.

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Same. It makes me really wonder how old these people are. MMOs weren't like this when I was growing up. Back then it was even questionable that a game be P2P.

If people want it they will buy it. I for one am neither for or against, but if see something on it I want, I'll buy it.

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Originally Posted by Amused

Same. It makes me really wonder how old these people are. MMOs weren't like this when I was growing up. Back then it was even questionable that a game be P2P.

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I feel that if a company tried to pull this garbage back in the day the people would eat them alive. People are just too docile and passive. The whole reason I am even paying a sub is to avoid a cash shop.

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Originally Posted by ShinigamiZero

I feel that if a company tried to pull this garbage back in the day the people would eat them alive. People are just too docile and passive. The whole reason I am even paying a sub is to avoid a cash shop.

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"WoW does it so it's ok." For serious though it all went down hill when businesses hired psychologists/psychiatrists that know how to work with words (same things politicians do). It's really easy to convince people nowadays that something like this is a good thing (well subjective really, though I'm anti-cash shop on a subscription). Look at how DLC and Cellphone games have evolved.

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Originally Posted by Kaiyoko

Please explain to me where I can get illvl 135 weapons and ilvl 130 armor besides coil. I'm sure there would be plenty of players all over it.

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The Matrix obviously. You've got to free your mind Kaiyoko.

http://freeyourmindonline.net/images...ass-matrix.jpg

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Originally Posted by Amused

Same. It makes me really wonder how old these people are. MMOs weren't like this when I was growing up. Back then it was even questionable that a game be P2P.

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See, odd that you say that. The first majorly successful MMOs were all Pay-to-play. In fact, one of the forerunners for modern MMOs was a game called island of Kesmai, which released in 1985 and actually charged by the hour. MMO's being free-to-play is a very recent development, along with the sense of entitlement to things you haven't actually payed for and are not essential or something you have a right to.

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Originally Posted by Amused

Same. It makes me really wonder how old these people are.

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Seems like we should be asking you that question.

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Originally Posted by Amused

Same. It makes me really wonder how old these people are. MMOs weren't like this when I was growing up. Back then it was even questionable that a game be P2P.

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You are seriously questioning peoples' age because they understand that nothing in the cash shop is worth stressing and worrying over and that it subtracts nothing from the main product?

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Originally Posted by Amused

Same. It makes me really wonder how old these people are. MMOs weren't like this when I was growing up. Back then it was even questionable that a game be P2P.

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Let me get this straight, again, you hypocrite.

So when you were growing up, you admit that the idea of paying monthly for a game was an unheard of idea. The norm was buying a game, and being given access to all it offers. However, at some point it changed the market. It became the norm, for most MMO's released in that time period to have a subscription fee. People accepted it. Even you, apparently. :rolleyes:

Now, pretty much the same thing is happening, and you're criticizing people for accepting it just like you accepted sub-fee MMO's? Get over yourself.

And just like other people said, that question needs to be turned around on you. I wouldn't assume you're an adult, when you don't even have a basic grasp on what is considered a mandatory purchase, and things you can bear to live without.

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Originally Posted by Ilitsa

Minions are not required to play the game. At all, and no. They are not content.

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There is a hunt target with a spawn condition requiring people to walk around with their minions out. It doesn't have to be a cash shop minion, though.

i wish to add some stuff that some people miss, most subs game that did get a cash shop that begin to get a lot of vanity item did end in free to play. the point is a lot of player did come in FF14 because it was a subs game and was wanting to avoid the cash shop stuff that most of the mmorpg are plagued with.

you have tons of free to play out, why make one of the few last mmorpg subs go down this way?
because the cash shop is not needed actually for get tons of cash from the game. no it's clearly a greedy move and nothing that you say can go against this sole fact.
with 2.000.000 subs per month (even with only legacy player at 9.99 euro) they get 19.980.000 euro (more of 24.700.000 USD) and it's only with the lowest subs actual, most people are not at this one and with the retainer subs it far more. do you really believe they use 24.7M USD per month in the game? really?

indeed they need cash and them goal is to get cash, that true. however, the question of: do they do the game for money or money for make game?
but please show me what i miss, because, actually they are getting tons of cash and the silly escuse of: "the cash shop is for get more content in the game" look bad... even for a kid.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

indeed they need cash and them goal is to get cash, that true. however, the question of: do they do the game for money or money for make game?

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They are a company, first and foremost they exist for profit and have a legally binding duty to act in the best interest of their shareholders. This means maximizing profit and making the company financially successful. If the cash shop is successful in generating revenue, and subscriptions do not drop significantly as a result, the shop will remain.

World of Warcraft has a cash shop, and has had one, for some time now. Selling mounts and mini pets, as well as character services such as faction changes or server transfers. The game is still, by far, the most financially successful MMO that currently exists, with a sub count that dwarfs all others. Cash shops in general, have little to do with a game's success. What matters is the quality of what isn't in the shop.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

Let me get this straight, again, you hypocrite.

So when you were growing up, you admit that the idea of paying monthly for a game was an unheard of idea.

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They aren't even admitting something, because they're just entirely wrong. The first major modern MMOs were subscription based and not controversial, considering the predecessors had been doing it for more than a decade already.

"Amused" certainly is amusing for a lack of a better word.

The Ego in this thread is ASTOUNDING.

Amused...let it go. Hell, anyone who agrees with his egotism should just freaking leave. I'm going to say this for the last time:

If you BOUGHT REAL LIFE SQUENIX MERCH FOR A MOUNT OR MINION, STOP WHINING ABOUT THE DAMN CASH SHOP! Don't give me this shit that it's "different", you bought it for the damn minion/mount, the Cash Shop gives you an easier way without needing to spend way more than you should.
And if you decided to go the route of minion and mount collecting, YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THIS WAS A RISK SINCE YOU BOUGHT SQUENIX MERCH FOR THEM!!!
You have no one to blame but yourself if you want to eat at every Burger King, but you don't have the expenses to do so.
You have only yourself to blame if you are a car enthusiast and want to drive every car in the world, but can't afford the cars.
Stop acting as if you can ignore the principle here all of a sudden.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

you have tons of free to play out, why make one of the few last mmorpg subs go down this way?

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All WoW clones go down this route, no exceptions. It's by design, initial high volume sales and accounts created thanks to the hype and brand if it's an existing IP, then the inevitable dip in subscription retention rates because the original they copied still does a lot of things much better, and the clone while better in some aspects still doesn't hold a candle. The less subs, the less monthly income and the more extra resources they need to cover updates and operations.

Cash shops are the easiest and fastest way to achieve this emergency plan to obtain more resources, as long as you build one people will sadly come, the companies are counting on them to make up for the lost subs. Though they are SE so I wouldn't put it past them to seriously think they can pull a WoW and hold both a sub and a cash shop, that has never ever worked at all except for WoW, all other themepark MMOs that have tried this eventually just went F2P and even less went B2P. Considering they had the idea they could compete with WoW since the 1.0 days, and it was one of the main reasons they so badly rushed the game, it's no surprise they're doing all this.

Sort of amused that the OP complains about referring to cash shop items as optional, and then defines "not optional" as anything someone might want to buy. It's a rather roundabout way of saying "CASH SHOP BAD NO EXCEPTIONS", as so many other threads do. Maybe they were hoping the thread would be taken more seriously if it wasn't obviously a CASH SHOP BAD thread? Admittedly, I actually read the thread, so maybe it's a worthwhile, if somewhat underhanded tactic.

I have no real opinion on it; there's nothing in the Cash Shop that I feel obligated to buy. There's stuff I'm sort of interested in, there, but it's yet to reach the point where I feel like paying real money for it. Maybe I'll feel different later. Maybe they'll someday put something there I must have. Maybe then I'll question whether a cash shop should exist at all. I dunno.

Still, the idea that there are collectors out there for whom this is mandatory content, though, is kind of weak... I readily admit that there may be folks that consider this kind of content mandatory - but REAL collectors of that kind are already resolved to spend thousands of dollars on their hobby. There are minions and mounts that are only obtainable by attending things like Fanfest, after all. To people that devoted, the pittance charged by the cash shop is a non-issue; they could buy everything currently available there, and still not put a dent in what it would cost to fly to Vegas. They would probably laugh out loud at the thought of the cash shop being a bad thing - quite the opposite, it facilitates their hobby by making some of their collection easy to get!

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Originally Posted by Amused

I would rather have a response so I can decide whether I want to keep playing this game, or if I want to leave it.

Leaving us in the dark about this, especially springing the Eternal Bond bit on us at the last minute, is absolutely disrespectful.

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Oh cmon, grow up. Its a damn video game, stop playing and go deal with some real problems. Christ this is just getting ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Akuryu

Says a lot that the first major patch since the addition of the cash shop is about 2/3rds cash shop related

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I like the exaggeration. Not mentioning a relic, eternal bond itself are several times bigger than all cash shop items. What do we have in cash shop? 2 dyes, some extra cutscenes, copy-pasted set of clothes (extra set looks exactly the same as usual one, just dyes differently), copy-pasted from "invite a friend" choco and one minion? It's a very pale in comparison to the scope of whole ceremony (and there are even quest before it).

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Originally Posted by Sholah

It's supposed to entitle you to all the content the game has to offer

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And paying 10$ at shop entitles you to everything in that shop /sarcasm

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Originally Posted by Taika

SE keeps locking out stuff that could and should be included in the subscription fee

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This is a baseless assumption and wishful thinking. You just assume that this content are free or was already included into the scope of development.

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Originally Posted by WHS

To get this all started SE had to take normal sub money and pay a dev to make some cash shop items to begin with.

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You don't understand how it works. Where money came from is not important, most probably than not it was funded separately and put on the separate budget at least initially. Furthermore it most probable that it is cash shop that sponsoring main development and not main development sponsor cash shop as cash shop has significantly higher margin and it usually easier to get bigger budget (even for main project) if you have bigger revenue stream.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

with 2.000.000 subs per month (even with only legacy player at 9.99 euro) they get 19.980.000 euro (more of 24.700.000 USD) and it's only with the lowest subs actual, most people are not at this one and with the retainer subs it far more. do you really believe they use 24.7M USD per month in the game? really?

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You should remember that ARR essentially sucked all SE money into rebuilding itself, many project went into frozen state (versus, anyone) or even was dumped. ARR cost a lot of money to be remade and people DO want to return their investment, so a lot from this number goes to recuperate R&D cost that was spent years ago.

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Originally Posted by Felessan

You should remember that ARR essentially sucked all SE money into rebuilding itself, many project went into frozen state (versus, anyone) or even was dumped. ARR cost a lot of money to be remade and people DO want to return their investment, so a lot from this number goes to recuperate R&D cost that was spent years ago.

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I love how you imply here that the players should shoulder tanaka's failure.

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Originally Posted by FateAudax

Subscription is only for access to their game server to play their game. Read the ToS, stop the "subscription = entitlement" mentality.

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Let's forget I wrote anything about the subscription then and concentrate on my point "Oh reader of the terms of service extrodinar."

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

The fact that they are limited only to the cash shop is what infuriates people.

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I myself don't mind these things and I am not taking sides. So this isn't a biased statement, but simply my observed opinion. Although I clearly said "fact." lol

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Originally Posted by Amused

Same. It makes me really wonder how old these people are. MMOs weren't like this when I was growing up. Back then it was even questionable that a game be P2P.

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So the OP voices concerns about the cash shop and attacks others whose opinions differ from his/hers by questioning their age. You just shot the point you're trying to make in the foot by making comments like this.

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Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki

So the OP voices concerns about the cash shop and attacks others whose opinions differ from his/hers by questioning their age. You just shot the point you're trying to make in the foot by making comments like this.

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I didn't attack anyone. I simply questioned how old they are, because I'm genuinely curious.

I guess all the people actually legitimately attacking me, and anyone else who disagrees with the cash shop are totally OK though.

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Originally Posted by Amused

I didn't attack anyone. I simply questioned how old they are, because I'm genuinely curious.

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http://static.fjcdn.com/comments/488...58f877f74b.jpg

Oh cmon, grow up. It's a game company that doesn't need more money than it already has, stop supporting their bad consumer practices and go play real videogames. Christ this is just getting ridiculous.

I've already cancelled my subscription and un-installed the game. You want us to leave? OK, that's fine. Just remember this when your servers are being merged, and you can't find people to group with because they've moved on to another game that doesn't treat it's players/fans as expendable.

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Originally Posted by Amused

I've already cancelled my subscription and un-installed the game. You want us to leave? OK, that's fine. Just remember this when your servers are being merged, and you can't find people to group with because they've moved on to another game that doesn't treat it's players/fans as expendable.

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http://img.nacode.com/aHR0cDovL2ltYW...g2NTMuanBn.jpg