Goad

No way am I reading 12 pages, but let me just say this if it hasn't been said yet. Ninja is not a support class, we will not guess at your TP. WHM and BLM ask for mages ballad, what makes you any better?

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Originally Posted by Jamillion

No way am I reading 12 pages, but let me just say this if it hasn't been said yet. Ninja is not a support class, we will not guess at your TP. WHM and BLM ask for mages ballad, what makes you any better?

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Good BRDs recognize when to do Ballad without being asked. Make a better analogy if you're trying to make a point.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Good BRDs recognize when to do Ballad without being asked. Make a better analogy if you're trying to make a point.

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For BLM, it's not possible to look at their mp bar and guess when they'd like Ballad. Oh look a BLM is OOM... meaning nothing.
For WHM, it is, because that's a piece of information you have. You can see their mp consumption, and they don't regenerate it with the push of a button.

Good bards have the information at hand and don't have to guess.

Where is the tank's tp bar again? Right. On the tank's screen. And NO WHERE ELSE.\\


As for the argument 'Ninjas should be familiar with everyone else's usage' if that's true then you should not only be familiar with your own tp usage, you should be in bed with it having a long term affair planning your marriage and honeymoon to Martha's Vineyard. In which case you should ask for Goad, until such a time as the ninja is familiar with YOUR TP usage. Which varies from tank to tank based on their playstyle and skillset. Which Ninjas know, because they've played with multiple tanks.

Want a better analogy???if you are so clouded to see the difference between Goad and TP song, here:

1/ Bard TP Song: AOE TP generated tool, cost MP and can be prolonged for a long time as long as MP is there, ON/OFF AT WILL and is self-targetable

2/ Goad: Single target TP generated tool, cost 0 MP, and have 3 mins CD, 20sec lasting, non self-targetable.

Goad is a INFERIOR version, at all aspects compared to Brd TP song. Please stop saying Goad is the same as TP song. , and a good Brd know when to TP without being asked and demand the Ninja to be the same. There is LITTLE TO NO drawback for using TP song at ANYTIME of the fight, and there is no need to figure who need TP because TP FOR ALL. There is a HIGHLY FAIR chance that Goad go wasted if used on wrong people at a wrong time of the fight, whilst in some situation, it could mean make or break..

Brd NO NEED to look at every SINGLE individual to know their TP, one click TP FOR ALL and can turn ON/OFF ANYTIME.

The argument of just because a good BRD can use their TP song without asking means that a good Ninja has to be the same is stupid and laughable. Give Goad the same ability as TP song, then demand Ninja to be the same come later.

Part of these argument comes from the fact that Goad could not be used on Ninja, himself. If Goad was actually self-targetable, all these demands are invalid because Ninja could just simply save it for himself.

@lionking : are you serious? bard should avoid tp song at all cost since it reduce damage by 20%!
Goad is far better because only war and monk (so only 2 ppl in most cases) lack TP usually so you can just give them the goad. And goad last 30s not 20s. The cooldown is indeed important but there is no reason to not using it.

And again this circles around to: If your own TP consumption is suffering you should expect everyone else's is too. Unless you're ok with being a vegetable. Which it seems like some people are ok with.

MNK/Dragoon or Warrior for it matters, all can do with out without Goad. And I am serious for saying thing, unless it is a LONG LONG fight, like in T8, under normal circumstances, none of them should be in a DESPERATELY situation in need of a Goad, not in Normal Duns run, not in COB or any Primal fights, let alone a SR. If any of them found themselves in DESPERATELY need of a Goad, they are OVEREXTENDED themselves. MNK/Dragoon already have Invergorate to cover their TP and War is not needed to use up their TP, just to hold aggro. War has Flas, Steel Cyclone, Infuriate, Berserker+ Overpower, lots, lots of tools in the disposal.

If you gave followed the tread thus far, the counter argument people give out thus far is just because of Brd can do XYZ, they EXPECT AND DEMAND Ninja to do the same without considering Goad is SIGNIFICANTLY INFERIOR to TP song in any aspects.I agree that TP song reduce 20% of Brd attack, but the trade off is MASSIVE, AOE TP generate tools, as long as their is MP, there is TP song, On/Off at will, compares to 3 mins CD, Single target TP generate. On top of everything else, they DEMAND Ninja to observe their TP pool which is impossible to tell unless the Ninja gives their 100% attention to see the skills used,chow many times, calculate the TP cost, etc... while forgetting that BRD's rotation is FAR Far more simple than of the Ninja, so it is coherent to say Brd has FAR FAR more easier time to observe the party TP tool than Ninja.

MNK can certainly make use of the TP from Goad in an extended fight. Prevents/delays having to drop Fracture/ToD from rotation for TP conservation reasons. This doesn't require excessive coordination.

I don't know why you would be so adamant about being stingy about Goad unless you yourself are a lazy or unobservant player. Nobody is saying "be perfect", just that you shouldn't need to be told all the time how to do functions of your job.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

And again this circles around to: If your own TP consumption is suffering you should expect everyone else's is too. Unless you're ok with being a vegetable. Which it seems like some people are ok with.

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So, I am saying if my own TP consumption is NOT suffering, then I would expect everyone else's is too? Unless I am ok with being a PRO, better than everyone else in managing my TP. Which it seems like some people have a hard time to cope with?

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

MNK can certainly make use of the TP from Goad in an extended fight. Prevents/delays having to drop Fracture/ToD from rotation for TP conservation reasons. This doesn't require excessive coordination.

I don't know why you would be so adamant about being stingy about Goad unless you yourself are a lazy or unobservant player. Nobody is saying "be perfect", just that you shouldn't need to be told all the time how to do functions of your job.

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SR is NOT extended fight. Any fights except T8 are NOT dummy fight where you have enough time to generate your TP time between the break. And NO MNK use Fracture in a SR fight. And let me tell you, I NEVER need Goad to have my TOD up 100% uptime, EVER. Why you need GOAD to have it or drop it if you are a good MNK?

I don't know why people so lazy to make up a macro to ask for it and click when need Goad unless you are a lazy bunch or just a demand player, en entitle one, think everyone has the responsibility to read your mind or to know what you want without you tell them. Nobody demands perfect but you CAN HELP to make it Perfect by just setting up a SIMPLE macro. Is it so hard??? And do I need to remind you by saying a simple concept of life? " You are not entitle for anything. Nobody can read mind. You want something, you ask for it." Nobody need to tell us how to do our job but YOU NEED TO BE TOLD what are life lessons.

Speedruns aren't extended fights but large enough pulls warrant Arm of the Destroyer over Bootshine or DK, which is an even excessively larger TP drain.

For the record, I can ask for Goad. I'm saying I shouldn't need to all the time. I rather like having a Ninja who doesn't have to be asked.

Excuse me, did I just hear you attempt a SR with a party consists of a Warrior, a Ninja, and a MNK??? A SR with 2 DpS who are melee? So who are you? The Warrior or the MNK?

1/ If you are the Warrior, sorry MNK need TP more than you, Goad MNK, no Goad for you.
2/ If you are the MNK, sorry Tank, you are an idiot for attempting a SR with 2 Melee DPS.

And for the record, I don't recall you ever say " I could ask for Goat nor I should not ask for Goat ALL THE TIME". As I recall through out 13 pages of the debate, all I see you calling Ninja who does not put up Goat is "finding excuses to be lazy", or "you should not tell them how to do their role" or "unless they want to be vegetable". Your point ? And for the latest record, that "you see yourself a lazy and unobservant player"..Who you trying to lie to for being a reasonable player now?

And for the record, I rather to have a Tank that knows a party consist of 2 Melee DPS is NOT WORTH to do a SR. A War, a MNK/Dragoon/Ninja/Brd and a Healer who can manage their own resources WITHOUT relying on others. And the party members that know if you want something, ask for it.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

For the record, I can ask for Goad. I'm saying I shouldn't need to all the time. I rather like having a Ninja who doesn't have to be asked.

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Unless that Ninja is familiar with your TP spending habits, you cannot expect this. Asking isn't about reminding the ninja to do something they were forgetting about, it's communicating to them information that is hidden to them but that you're fully aware of.

We're not psychic, so please use your words.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

For BLM, it's not possible to look at their mp bar and guess when they'd like Ballad. Oh look a BLM is OOM... meaning nothing.

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Sorry, this is going to be a bit off topic, but why would a BLM need mana song? Is it ever worth it to play Ballad over Foes, if the song is specifically for the BLM? I can understand SMN since played optimally with no Energy Drain, MP management can be a huge issue - but I can't recall a BLM ever asking for Ballad in all the time I've played. Mabe I've played with bad BLMs? Someone enlighten me.

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Originally Posted by LionKing

Excuse me, did I just hear you attempt a SR with a party consists of a Warrior, a Ninja, and a MNK??? A SR with 2 DpS who are melee? So who are you? The Warrior or the MNK?

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And for the record, I rather to have a Tank that knows a party consist of 2 Melee DPS is NOT WORTH to do a SR. A War, a MNK/Dragoon/Ninja/Brd and a Healer who can manage their own resources WITHOUT relying on others. And the party members that know if you want something, ask for it.

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How incredibly closed-minded. Every SR must absolutely have a BLM, or even a WAR tank? I'll be sure to tell that to all of my buddies who don't play those jobs that our fast and fun multi-pulls with 2 melee were flukes.

The irony of this whole "debate" is that you are pretty much asking for "Goad" yourself. I'm happy to oblige because your increasingly belligerent and one-note responses are just amusing.

Fourteen pages because some people can't be assed to just ask the Rogue or Ninja for a Goad to restore the TP they can't see? It's easier for you to ask when you need it than it is for the Ninja to guesstimate and risk wasting it. You don't even have to type it out. Make a macro that says "Goad please" or even make one that just displays your TP percentage with a noise; an attentive player will notice and know what you want without specifically being told. But it's absolutely ridiculous to remain completely silent and expect someone to know you need Goad.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

How incredibly closed-minded. Every SR must absolutely have a BLM, or even a WAR tank? I'll be sure to tell that to all of my buddies who don't play those jobs that our fast and fun multi-pulls with 2 melee were flukes.

The irony of this whole "debate" is that you are pretty much asking for "Goad" yourself. I'm happy to oblige because your increasingly belligerent and one-note responses are just amusing.

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So you say your party does not have a War? Then the Tank must be a Paladin, why bother asking for Goat? Please don't tell me you need TP for the Paladin?

I am sorry if you are doing that kind of run with your buddies. BUDDIES, YOU SAY???? I am sorry to say this but ANY OF THE PUGS you meet in DF, ARE NOT your buddies. Therefore, they are not obligated to give you anything nor they knows your habit nor they knows how you manage your TP. In short, they know NOTHING of you. Do not expect things from a stranger what you would expect from a buddy. That is just F-A-I-L

I am sorry to say this, you can do WHATEVER you like with your buddies. That is not my concern. However, go and ask any players how would they think to have a Tank do a SR with two Melee as DPS, then tell me the answer.

You say I am stupid for asking "Goad" for myself? Can you please tell me which part you of my post you saw that idea from? Caused I failed to see it myself, PLEASE point it out. I am clearly aware that Goad is not self-targetable. I don't know why you implied I don't know that?

But sure, I rather to be fail at a job in game than in real life. I am pretty sure you will have a very much happy life for failing such basic life concept: " You want something, you ask for it".

I am done with you.

Playstyles can vary incredibly between players, that includes tanks in dungeons. The way I play WAR in heroic/expert dungeons, I could be conservative on my TP that I wouldn't run out until the 6th pull, or go nuts with a large pull and spam overpower + damage buffs and bloodbath.

As for TP consumption, ninja has such low TP costs on their rotation that they'd never run into any problems, even with an increased attack speed. Every other class would unfortunately run out of TP doing their optimal damage skills if the fight gets incredibly prolonged without any pauses (T8 for example). Because of that, Goad is not necessarily inferior to paeon, (esp for my party makeup of NIN/MNK/BRD/BLM) unless you have 2 non-ninja/caster dps (in which case, you;re running a triple melee for this scenaro...)

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

I don't know why you would be so adamant about being stingy about Goad unless you yourself are a lazy or unobservant player. Nobody is saying "be perfect", just that you shouldn't need to be told all the time how to do functions of your job.

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I have no problem using Goad. But, as I've said, its much easier for a WAR to type "goad plz", rather than me watch my own abilities, my own CDs, the boss movements and possible AoEs -and- baysit your TP usage.

If you're running low on TP, then you got bigger problems to address than worrying about than Goad.

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Originally Posted by Marionette

If you're running low on TP, then you got bigger problems to address than worrying about than Goad.

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TP is a resource that translates into damage; the more TP you have at your disposal, the more maneuvers you can use in succession to increase damage output. Skills like Goad, Invigorate and Paeon permit more liberal TP usage--whether that's marathon DPS or burst DPS depends on the situation.

What are these "bigger problems" you're implying?

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Originally Posted by Marionette

If you're running low on TP, then you got bigger problems to address than worrying about than Goad.

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This is inevitable in a prolonged fight with little to no pauses, such as phase 1 and 2 of twintania, or T8 as a whole.

I have honestly seen some pretty stupid arguments on forums for video games, but this one may take the cake. It really shouldn't even be an argument, especially when talking about doing SR's or any old content. It is NEVER 100% necessary in any situation for old content, and if for some reason it was it should be quite obvious for any competent ninja. However, I would much rather be a situation where you aren't 100% topped off on TP because of my goad than get into a silly mess and actually need it, but it happens to be on CD because I used it two minutes ago to top you off because I assumed you might maybe kind of sort of need it, maybe...? Its really very simple, if you want/need it, ask. If they refuse or don't do it after that THAN call them lazy or bad. Stop arguing over a non-issue, but have a good day still! :)

God, I hate having to talk to players in this social, interactive, online video game.