the hunts made me hate this community now

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Originally Posted by Jakeson

I love how some people honestly don't see this as a community. But then again, it isn't because most things are instanced...because the one time a game tries to bring out some open world content, it turns into this mess.

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But that's sort of what comes with open world content, competition. But no, can't have that, can we?

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Originally Posted by ispano

But that's sort of what comes with open world content, competition. But no, can't have that, can we?

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I don't get how this is a competition. Is there any edge gained by not waiting?

edit: I won't even say waiting, I mean just being polite and helpful and working together.

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Originally Posted by Jakeson

I don't get how this is a competition. Is there any edge gained by not waiting?

edit: I won't even say waiting, I mean just being polite and helpful and working together.

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It's in the nature of the system, if you don't get it, that means you are likely refusing to see it that way. Not to mention, many people look at competition, in a negative way. When it's supposed to be friendly competition. When people try to turn a system like that into "Everyone gets rewarded, share it around" it gets boring for many people. The amount of people doing it your way brings is bad in at least two ways. One it trivializes the fight, when they're already rather easy to beat. Secondly, it causes the server to choke due to how many people are in one area, something they cannot be realistically expected to handle.

And the edge is they get the rewards and you don't. I bet you anything, if Sand and Oil were not on the reward list, this whole situation would be entirely different.

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Originally Posted by Jakeson

I don't get how this is a competition. Is there any edge gained by not waiting?...

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For example, someone is killing mark_A, and asking ppl at mark_B and mark_C hold, so he can have mark_A, B and C all killed.
However, someone at mark_C don't want to wait, bcoz he want kill mark_C now then rush to mark_A or B. ^^;

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Originally Posted by ispano

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I get what you're saying, but if I run around for four hours and don't get a single mark due to "competition" I'm not going to pay for this game anymore. So if that's the sort of competition you're looking for, I think you're going to turn off a large portion of the player base. In my opinion, it's a player vs. environment system, not a player vs. player. So the way I see it, is that it is meant for people to work together. if you don't get it, that means you are likely refusing to see it that way.

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

For example, someone is killing mark_A, and asking ppl at mark_B and mark_C hold, so he can have mark_A, B and C all killed.
However, someone at mark_C don't want to wait, bcoz he want kill mark_C now then rush to mark_A or B. ^^;

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Yeah, that's understandable. If you miss a mark because more than one popped, tough...nobody should get butt-hurt over that. I understand they do, but those people are the weird entitled ones. Same with B's, I don't think many people care about B's...or at least they shouldn't. If you run across one, go for it, but otherwise it'll be back in 45 minutes.

I don't care how you choose to play the game, I just prefer working together. Hunts overall is dumb and broken, but the rewards are amazing, so we do them :-/

It comes down to this: SE doesn't create the community, we do. So I would prefer to create the type of community that I would want to be a part of. I like working together and making progress. I don't like PvP. So I urge the community to do these things. It's not up to anyone but the player to choose how they play the game.

Just be aware of the community you create.

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Originally Posted by Jakeson

I get what you're saying, but if I run around for four hours and don't get a single mark due to "competition" I'm not going to pay for this game anymore. So if that's the sort of competition you're looking for, I think you're going to turn off a large portion of the player base. In my opinion, it's a player vs. environment system, not a player vs. player. So the way I see it, is that it is meant for people to work together. if you don't get it, that means you are likely refusing to see it that way.

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No, I see it your way, I'm saying your way is harmful. I won't ever say I don't "understand" or anything of the sort, because I make an effort to think things through and understand. That doesn't mean that you're correct. Anyone who thinks about hunts long enough, looks at how they work and such, can tell how they were meant to be done. You choose to do it differently, and that's FINE. Nothing wrong with doing things differently. What's wrong, is the harassment that goes on towards those who DON'T do it your way. And, yes, I know people on the opposite side of yours who do that as well. But your group has the large zerg behind it, to help push your agenda.

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Originally Posted by Jakeson

Just be aware of the community you create.

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So should you. I'd rather not have the community that thinks they need to be able to get everything, just because they pay for the game, get any larger. Not to mention the people that have various other, yet similar, mindsets.



Lastly, I know how this system works. People like to claim that every single person in a huge zerg can get full credit. And that's simply not possible. It works in a similar fashion to a FATE. After you reach a certain amount of participants, be it a solo player or a group, there will be a limit on how many people can get Gold and potentially silver. The system was designed that way. If I find a A or B, and there is a small handful of people around if it's an A, I go. We are there, we found it, we're killing it. So keep playing your way, I won't bark at you for it. But I will bark at you for harassing those who don't play your way.

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Originally Posted by ispano

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Well, I certainly agree the harassment is terrible, from both sides. There's no place for some of the things I've heard in society much less this game. Those people are wrong no matter what side they're on.

And you are more than entitled to your opinion, and if you or someone like you pulls a mark with just their party there, I may swear to myself, but I promise I'm not going to harass anyone for playing the game how they want. I vote with my subscription.

And that's the thing, as soon as I saw how the system was done, especially with the rewards, I knew for the most part what was going to happen. People's lust for gear without as much effort(not you necessarily mind you, but many) took over. Se saw their mistakes in 2.0 and changed it in 2.2, they will likely see the mistake here and change it for 2.4. They're not ones to make a snap change and would rather just wait til the next major patch, unless it's truly game breaking of course.

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Originally Posted by ispano

I'd rather not have the community that thinks they need to be able to get everything

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Nobody should feel entitled to everything, you have to work for it. But let's face it: there are different breeds of gamers. I want to participate in the hunts, and if there are people out there who are much more organized, much better and (I hope a small minority) cheating, and they don't want to wait for me...then I can't participate. That sucks because I already can't participate in SCoB because of work, and basically it leaves me little else I like to do in this game. So you run the risk of ostracizing a large portion of the player base by doing things the way you prefer. If that's how you want it, go for it. Nobody is stopping you.

and I don't mean that last part to sound snarky, I really mean it. I don't care how people play as long as they aren't harassing me. I just may or may not choose to continue playing a game that is so wildly unbalanced if I can't partake in the wildly unbalanced content :). But I'm just one guy.

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Originally Posted by Jakeson

It comes down to this: SE doesn't create the community, we do. So I would prefer to create the type of community that I would want to be a part of. I like working together and making progress. I don't like PvP. So I urge the community to do these things. It's not up to anyone but the player to choose how they play the game.

Just be aware of the community you create.

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I like creating a community too, but I also want to have fun doing it. The only fun I can say doing Hunts is finding a mark, but even that gets old fast when you have 100 players combing an area.
You mention working together and making progress. What better way to run end game content like coil where you learn as a team, wipe as a team and finally succeed as a team?

No, I don't believe that hunts are in any way conducive to building a community. The amount of negativity in the forums and in game proves this. I've been in northern thanalan waiting for dalvag to spawn and people would refuse to kill gormigon (sp) and he would still be alive 4 hours later. Like what ispano said, the rewards are just disproportionate to the effort. Building a community and having fun is just an excuse to justify this broken system imo.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

stupid character limit

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I agree, this crap is 100% broken and unbalanced. I hope they do something quickly to correct it. But for now I can't do SCoB, so this is how I gear up. I don't like crafting, and everything else is a weekly lockout. So after my dailies are done, I either get a group and hunt or log off. Lately I've been logging off, and I'm finding less and less reason to log on, because this crap is terrible for the community.

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Originally Posted by Jakeson

Nobody should feel entitled to everything, you have to work for it. But let's face it: there are different breeds of gamers. I want to participate in the hunts, and if there are people out there who are much more organized, much better and (I hope a small minority) cheating, and they don't want to wait for me...then I can't participate. That sucks because I already can't participate in SCoB because of work, and basically it leaves me little else I like to do in this game. So you run the risk of ostracizing a large portion of the player base by doing things the way you prefer. If that's how you want it, go for it. Nobody is stopping you.

and I don't mean that last part to sound snarky, I really mean it. I don't care how people play as long as they aren't harassing me. I just may or may not choose to continue playing a game that is so wildly unbalanced if I can't partake in the wildly unbalanced content :). But I'm just one guy.

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But like skaterger said, you're not really participating. You're just coming along for the ride for the most part. Also, when I feel something is unbalanced, like the current rewards for hunts, I will literally REFUSE to participate. I won't refuse to kill a mob I come across myself and such, but I will never buy Sand/Oil with the rewards. Ever. If I disagree with how something is, I will literally not participate in that aspect. I have a log rotting on my retainer because of this, in case they can be used for something else down the road.

So, I just do the dailies and weeklies, which have been a joke so far to do, and claim the few I come across when playing normally. I'll get the few things I want, then who knows.

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Originally Posted by ispano

But like skaterger said, you're not really participating. You're just coming along for the ride for the most part.

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There are people like this, but I roam around and hunt.

edit: "hunt"

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Originally Posted by Jakeson

There are people like this, but I roam around and hunt.

edit: "hunt"

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But you have a similar mentality. You want them to wait in the chance you don't find one.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Lastly, I know how this system works. People like to claim that every single person in a huge zerg can get full credit.

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do you have zerg size and proof to back this up?

I have done over 500 marks, and only time I don't get credit are in early pulls, bad party configs (more then 1 or two dps normally) or when people are not performing their role right (Whms not medica2 with cure 3 spams, or tanks not using the enmity moves / not in defiance or Shield oath.
There are things you can look at to see, spell casting bars, effects on you, ect. you will have strings of bad seal numbers and it becomes obvious it is the party members. Any

Not surprised since after the earily experience with FATE farming most people have learned how fast a single target for a reward (AKA The Hunt) can be easily swarmed and slaughtered by the nearest people.

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Originally Posted by Deviant1

do you have zerg size and proof to back this up?

I have done over 500 marks, and only time I don't get credit are in early pulls, bad party configs (more then 1 or two dps normally) or when people are not performing their role right (Whms not medica2 with cure 3 spams, or tanks not using the enmity moves / not in defiance or Shield oath.
There are things you can look at to see, spell casting bars, effects on you, ect. you will have strings of bad seal numbers and it becomes obvious it is the party members. Any

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Keyword in your post "I". Do you ask every single person, every single group that participates, what they got? I honestly don't think you do. Not to mention, as others have pointed out, the way you describe "forces" people to play specific jobs/roles to get rewards. Some of the large groups even won't allow you to play something else.

Let's just take a moment to point out how utterly stupid it is to have content where dealing damage is simply not allowed. Where actually doing nothing but spamming taunts and heals actually works and is in fact the preferred method of engaging with the content. Just think about that for a moment.

It's dumb. It's really, really, really, really, really, really dumb.

As far as I'm concerned, this content is an utter failure in every possible regard, without exception. Nothing about it is done well. NOTHING about it is done well. It's all dumb. They should have known this would happen, yet they did not. It's most perplexing. Utterly dumbfounding, even.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Why are these opposed? I'm of both crowds.

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Because one is concerned about the gameplay effects hunts have to the game and the other is concerned about being unable to participate in the Skinner's box correctly.

The main difference is group B would be happy with the Hunt's design and results if they could get the credits like the rest of the players that farm the heck out of the content. In other words, if these detractors had an infrastructure that would allow them to milk the system like Hunt defenders do, they would be defenders themselves.

Group A, on the other hand, realizes the problem with the system and its global effect on the game regardless of their ability to obtain the credits.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

So in short I think you are very wrong about the reasons behind the majority of players disliking hunts. Many of us play the game for the social aspect and the challenge of overcoming obstacles with our friends. You know, the whole idea behind every RPG, EVER - fight a big bad guy who is about to destroy everything you and your friends know and love.

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Am I though? If you check the complains that you can find around the forum it would seem, without any kind of real analytical exam mind you, that most of these complains are about not reaching the target in time. There's endless discussions, in this thread included, about the community, about it being polite to hold a monster, about people not cooperating, etc.

All of these complains and arguments have one fundamental logic: "Hunts would be OK if we could make it work together". They do not address the design and gameplay flaws I mentioned and which you seem to agree with. Thus my perception is that while there's multiple hunt detractors, only a fraction -possibly even the smallest part- is concerned about the actual game design effect. The others just want to be part of the credit orgy.