[dev1032] PUG skills singled out.

It was completely understandable, I was unfortunately lumping you with those that were simply complaining.
I would likely have done the same. ^_^

Well, it's time to head home and play!

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Physic

speed surge is still a huge boost, the game is about tp whoring now, and they get tp faster than anyone, i wouldnt be surprised if when the dust settles they find out lnc is the king of DD now.

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Ok, last response, then I'm off.
Completely agree, and right now LNC is the new SAM, and I hated that broken class, haste, tp boost, miss and swing again, seriously going there again SE? Yes, I have some complaints about the game as well. Just not about the 30mp.

Still waiting for a reply on this one. I mean currently Lancer and Archer are better for damage, Marauder and Gladiator are better for tanking. What's the point of Pugilist these days? Adding MP costs to our basic attacks was just kicking us while we're down.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Still waiting for a reply on this one. I mean currently Lancer and Archer are better for damage, Marauder and Gladiator are better for tanking. What's the point of Pugilist these days? Adding MP costs to our basic attacks was just kicking us while we're down.

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IIRC the devs said something about Pugilist being positioned as more of a DD class, so maybe we'll see something with the next patch. At least, I hope so. It's majorly effed up that we get MP costs on out attacks with no way to restore MP from our own skill set, AND we have one of the lower MP pools in the game. Meanwhile Mr. Lancer has huge DPS and an enormous MP pool with ZERO MP costs on their skills.

It would be interesting if they tied scaling of some abilities into other stats, like M.Attack, MP pool, etc. to give more tweaking knobs for class styles.

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Originally Posted by MattyWS

After the removal of Physical level everyone is going to be so weak on their main class xD

Thing is I use these abilities all the time for fast tp, meaning I run out fast and can't cure.. and if the mob I fight is still half health I cannot kill it fast, because I can't get fast tp, and I cannot hold off because I cannot cure. Only really happened a few time in long fights but still!

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Except those whose main is 50 i suspect. Hopefully it would make fighting lower rank mobs yield more xp since they would pose more of a challenge. Maybe fighting something same rank or level would yield 300sp.

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

IIRC the devs said something about Pugilist being positioned as more of a DD class, so maybe we'll see something with the next patch. At least, I hope so. It's majorly effed up that we get MP costs on out attacks with no way to restore MP from our own skill set, AND we have one of the lower MP pools in the game. Meanwhile Mr. Lancer has huge DPS and an enormous MP pool with ZERO MP costs on their skills.

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DD!? I refuse to use that word as a pugilist because there are Archers who do twice more Damage than I do, and THAT is something I don't understand.

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Originally Posted by AsterBarnivere

DD!? I refuse to use that word as a pugilist because there are Archers who do twice more Damage than I do, and THAT is something I don't understand.

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Yeah I think they should lower cool down of light strike and pummel to 4 secs and maybe 10 for pummel either that or speed up pug auto attack. I tried playing PUG after 1.18 and felt very slow. Hopefully they can do that instead of slowing archers down which I think is the popular class because it seems to work the best now that stamina gauge is gone.

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Originally Posted by AsterBarnivere

DD!? I refuse to use that word as a pugilist because there are Archers who do twice more Damage than I do, and THAT is something I don't understand.

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Not to mention they stand way out of harm's way while doing more damage than you.

So.....still waiting on word on this one. I mean I'm bringing my Marauder up so I'll have no need for my Pugilist soon but I'd still love some kind of word on this issue. Why Pugilist? Will per-class point allocation make this better for us? Will we get more MP per Mind stat to make up for it? Is there any kind of logical justification for putting MP cost on the basic attacks? Just looking for a rep to clear this up, I can usually see the good in the changes the dev team makes but this one is completely lost on me.

they need to make PUG LNC MRD stronger.

Does Lancer really need to be stronger? I was under the impression they were pretty much the top as far as physical damage goes. I'm really not sure where Archer stands these days aside from at the very least above Pug and Marauder.

I do not understand the mp change for the skills but I have been able to manage my mp very well by using Stygian Spikes and Siphon MP. I use Light Strike and Pummel several times through out a battle and still have plenty of mp left. Of course I have had to pump a ton of points into my mind stat.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Does Lancer really need to be stronger? I was under the impression they were pretty much the top as far as physical damage goes. I'm really not sure where Archer stands these days aside from at the very least above Pug and Marauder.

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I would say from playing Archer it has only gotten stronger so far the 15 seconds on multi-shot shot didnt really effect it all that much and auto-attack only effected the melees. Lancer deffinitely has pug and marauder beat dd wise though pug and mrd were made to be dual dd/tanks. We'll just have to wait for SE to retool the classes for some better balance.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Does Lancer really need to be stronger? I was under the impression they were pretty much the top as far as physical damage goes. I'm really not sure where Archer stands these days aside from at the very least above Pug and Marauder.

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Archer damage is strongest, much above LNC and any other. they can end BR with multishot + full buff = 900x3 = 2700 damage.

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Originally Posted by hotah

I was curious as to why Light Strike and Pummel requires 10 and 20 mana respectively, while the other DoW classes have no such resource requirement.

Light Stab (increase accuracy)
Heavy Stab (increase enmity)
Heavy Slash (increase enmity)

Broad Swing (conal attack)
Heavy Swing --
Full Swing (conal attack, increase enmity)

Multishot (extra shot, 15 seconds)
Heavy Shot (reduces target TP)

Heavy Thrust (bind)
Pierce (damages enemies in line)
Full Thrust --

Light Strike (increase evasion and physical defense) 10 MP
Pummel -- 20 MP
Flurry (extra attack)

What justifies it?

edit: archer skills

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You have my full support. I made the first complaint about this some time ago after the update patch when we started getting mp charges to use those moves. Melee, is not MP. It's not realistic and makes absolutely no sense. Maybe if it stole MP, it would, but no... Not as a Pug. It's upsetting and disgusting to disturbs the balance of mp on magic to self heal or others.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

So.....still waiting on word on this one. I mean I'm bringing my Marauder up so I'll have no need for my Pugilist soon but I'd still love some kind of word on this issue. Why Pugilist? Will per-class point allocation make this better for us? Will we get more MP per Mind stat to make up for it? Is there any kind of logical justification for putting MP cost on the basic attacks? Just looking for a rep to clear this up, I can usually see the good in the changes the dev team makes but this one is completely lost on me.

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I've played Pugilist as well as Archer, although not all the way to 50, so I may not understand the full extent of the problem. But while archers do seem like premium damage dealers, they can't take a hit worth a darn. At least Pugilists have evasive abilities and strong natural health bars. They could potentially be great at evasion tanking with the right kind of support (if that is indeed the design philosophy behind them).

It's still on the official site here:
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/#/game.../pugilist/role

Basically, Pugilists should be able to sink deeper into an increasingly evasive or offensive stance depending on what abilities they use. I can't say I've been in a battle that lasted long enough to even notice how this works (or even if it does work), especially now that auto-attack has taken over.

It might not make pugilists the very best damage dealers at short fights, but for long boss fights, they might actually prove quite desirable depending on the potency of those stances.

It would be nice to hear what the future design philosophy is going to be in regards to this, however.

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

IIt's still on the official site here:
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/#/game.../pugilist/role

Basically, Pugilists should be able to sink deeper into an increasingly evasive or offensive stance depending on what abilities they use. I can't say I've been in a battle that lasted long enough to even notice how this works (or even if it does work), especially now that auto-attack has taken over.

It might not make pugilists the very best damage dealers at short fights, but for long boss fights, they might actually prove quite desirable depending on the potency of those stances.

It would be nice to hear what the future design philosophy is going to be in regards to this, however.

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The stances never actually made it into the final game (which sucks, would have been a cool idea). And if I recall correctly, Pugilist is being tooled into a DD class per the new team.

And I agree that Pugilists and Marauders could use some buffing. They need to have the enemy focused on them in order to be able to perform DD at their maximum (and yet Gladiators are the actual tank class), while Lancer and Archer can deal much more damage without needing to have the enemy's attack cause a certain effect (evasion and parrying respectively) to make them able to use their low TP cost DD skills.

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

I've played Pugilist as well as Archer, although not all the way to 50, so I may not understand the full extent of the problem. But while archers do seem like premium damage dealers, they can't take a hit worth a darn. At least Pugilists have evasive abilities and strong natural health bars. They could potentially be great at evasion tanking with the right kind of support (if that is indeed the design philosophy behind them).

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However aside from soloing Archers should never actually take a hit. Archers have the longest range in the game, they should use it. Pugilist is forced to be up front 100% of the time and does nowhere near the amount of damage an Archer does. From a balance standpoint, why use anything but Archer? I mean when you can do max damage at max range, there's no point in having other damage classes. They're out of harm's reach while doing more damage than all other melee classes.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

However aside from soloing Archers should never actually take a hit. Archers have the longest range in the game, they should use it. Pugilist is forced to be up front 100% of the time and does nowhere near the amount of damage an Archer does. From a balance standpoint, why use anything but Archer? I mean when you can do max damage at max range, there's no point in having other damage classes. They're out of harm's reach while doing more damage than all other melee classes.

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My answer might not fit the actual situation, but I'd expect the reason to be that while archers could breeze through short fights, they might not do too well in long ones (as in not living long enough to do much damage... the "glass cannon" problem).

I would expect (but it might not be the case) that Pugilists could either "warm up" to even higher damage than archers could dream of by increasing their offensive stance, or, if the case warrants it, become increasingly evasive instead if they take a defensive stance so as to tank (or help tank) a hit-like-a-truck mob. So while they might not be so great at sniping, you would want them around for tough, long fights because they can go the distance.

But I'm only reading the pamphlet as to what Pugilist should have been. I realize it may not actually be working out to be that anymore.

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Originally Posted by AmyRae

My answer might not fit the actual situation, but I'd expect the reason to be that while archers could breeze through short fights, they might not do too well in long ones (as in not living long enough to do much damage... the "glass cannon" problem).

I would expect (but it might not be the case) that Pugilists could either "warm up" to even higher damage than archers could dream of by increasing their offensive stance, or, if the case warrants it, become increasingly evasive instead if they take a defensive stance so as to tank (or help tank) a hit-like-a-truck mob. So while they might not be so great at sniping, you would want them around for tough, long fights because they can go the distance.

But I'm only reading the pamphlet as to what Pugilist should have been. I realize it may not actually be working out to be that anymore.

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Unfortunately, that isn't what's happening. The only "evasive" stance Pugilists can take is Featherfoot + Light Strike (which costs MP) and that only lasts for a single hit every 30 seconds or so. Aside from that it's all offensive and a poor job of it at that.

Featherfoot increases evasion true which is usefull for... err... 1 blow.

However their first TP attack, which I've completely forgotten the name of like the typical hyper-active mental leak I get after too much energy drink *cough* does also debuff the enemy in a way that allows you to evade more often, up to 3 stacks I believe.

Pugilists have a few skills that are only usable after evading, but unless you go nuts stacking evasion items to reduce your opponents chance to hit you, featherfoot is all you get, so you don't make a very good tank apart from waving around a chunky HP bar. However in early ranks Pugilists don't make bad tanks, and they can put out a pretty hefty degree of damage to hold enmity against some other classes, especially if they use that 'slightly larger than average' MP pool they possess to heal themselves.

At the moment though they kind of feel like a floaty 'not sure where we're going with all of this' kind of class... still great fun to play though :D

And the biggest problem (and reason this thread was created) is the addition of MP to Pugilist's basic attacks. No other class does this. Further complicating this problem Pugilists have no way of regenerating MP natively and they also have very little MP per Mind stat.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

And the biggest problem (and reason this thread was created) is the addition of MP to Pugilist's basic attacks. No other class does this. Further complicating this problem Pugilists have no way of regenerating MP natively and they also have very little MP per Mind stat.

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Well yeah, I was trying to get at that with the 'not sure where this class is meant to be' comment XD

It's like, we hit stuff and it dies, but we don't know if we should be using MP or TP for it, so we use a bit of both.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

Well yeah, I was trying to get at that with the 'not sure where this class is meant to be' comment XD

It's like, we hit stuff and it dies, but we don't know if we should be using MP or TP for it, so we use a bit of both.

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Right. I mean it's not like Light Strike has any logical reason for requiring MP. Yes it gives you a buff, a lower version of the same buff type Featherfoot gives without costing MP. Pummel really has no reason for costing MP considering other classes have similar abilities with no MP cost. It just doesn't make a lot of sense the way Pugilist is set up right now.

Just a quick bump....please remove the mp cost on pug abilities...its a pain...especially during long fights...IE faction NMs or dungeon mobs.....cant wait to see how much fun its going to be when were doing beastmen strongholds...

Why bother worrying about this when class skills will be completely revamped?

For all we know, PUG won't even have Pummel or Light Strike when all is said and done.

Wait and see...

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

Why bother worrying about this when class skills will be completely revamped?

For all we know, PUG won't even have Pummel or Light Strike when all is said and done.

Wait and see...

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The wait and see policy has nearly killed this game.

To OP, this is no offense in anyway. It is only a reference toward the same argument I held when the 1.8 patch was released after stamina gauge was removed.

This is truly hilarious. I just mentioned how it was unfair for Pug to have Pummel/Light strike to have mp cost on ffxivpro.com on the 1.8 patch thread some time ago. People were bothered by my complaint that was the same generalization as the OP here. It wouldn't make sense to have an MP cost for a non-elemental attack on a Disciple of war job. I don't understand up until now my argument compared to the OP's argument is supported where as mines was mostly obstructed with insults or people thinking it would make the game "easy".

Maybe I'm just conflicted where one argument is supported where as the other is unsupportive, but I just don't understand what is the difference. His argument is just the same as mines... Just saying.

In any case, I already send them a feed back regarding Pug or attack ability be revised for most non-elemental attacks. /supported

Edit: Just a clarification. I support this argument based on the fact needing mp to use light strike and Pummel would mean more down time to attack with the only use of auto-attack or Flurry. This means that other jobs be it disciples of war or magic besides pug attack more and build tp more than pug, thus ruining the use of the pug job entirely.

Second, imagine when the point system becomes abolished, then it would mean that HP/MP might get decreased again (this is a theory). Obviously, pugs wont have enough mp to even heal themselves if healing magic abilities were equipped.

I thought that the skills that required MP couldn't miss/be evaded....but I might be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

Featherfoot increases evasion true which is usefull for... err... 1 blow.

However their first TP attack, which I've completely forgotten the name of like the typical hyper-active mental leak I get after too much energy drink *cough* does also debuff the enemy in a way that allows you to evade more often, up to 3 stacks I believe.

Pugilists have a few skills that are only usable after evading, but unless you go nuts stacking evasion items to reduce your opponents chance to hit you, featherfoot is all you get, so you don't make a very good tank apart from waving around a chunky HP bar. However in early ranks Pugilists don't make bad tanks, and they can put out a pretty hefty degree of damage to hold enmity against some other classes, especially if they use that 'slightly larger than average' MP pool they possess to heal themselves.

At the moment though they kind of feel like a floaty 'not sure where we're going with all of this' kind of class... still great fun to play though :D

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It's called Concussive Blow. You haven't been playing Pugilist for very long and I'm sorry but you really don't seem to have enough experience with the class to be throwing around stuff like "pugilists don't make very good tanks" "featherfoot is not useful because it is only for one hit".

Pugilists make fine tanks at the moment, featherfoot is one of the most useful defensive abilities in this game (which not just pugilist tanks use), and Accomplice/Jarring Strike two of the best enmity generating moves. You can use featherfoot even when not tanking to evade an AOE and then use one of the counter moves, or taunt the target after a featherfoot for the same effect. Our counter moves are the best counter moves in the game so that is a big part of our class.

Without counter moves we still benefit from being a fast TP gainer (comparable with LNC, and often better if they have accuracy issues), but especially after 1.18a/1.18b Simian Thrash is likely the most powerful outside of a BR TP move, and Jarring Strike is one of the best enmity generating moves out there.

There are plenty of opportunities in places like Darkhold/the NM's/and especially XP groups where Pugilists have an opportunity to really make full use of their abilities/strengths. You should venture out from the General Forums sometimes and visit the Pugilist forums to actually learn more about the class/what it can do.

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Originally Posted by Vackashken

The wait and see policy has nearly killed this game.

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"Were looking into it"

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Originally Posted by AsterBarnivere

"Were looking into it"

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If you are going to post this on every thread on the forum could at least spell we're correctly. It kind of ruins the whole smart alec act.

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Originally Posted by Naylia

I thought that the skills that required MP couldn't miss/be evaded....but I might be wrong.

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Nope they miss just like anything else. Only difference between PUG and the other DoW TP skills is you have to pay MP to get your add effect and they don't.