Please disable "Follow" inside duties.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

People just like to have something to complain about and feel superior over. SCH's swag healing is a non-issue.

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So, serious question. What would you do if the tank and DPS put in the least amount of effort? Say, they only auto attacked til the mobs died. Still more effort than letting the fairy heal everything, but what would you do?

lol ok story time.

i decide to queue up for low lvl roulette on my tank. get tam tara(big surprise!). our healer is a scholar decked out in coil1 gear. he then proceeds to spam me with physick consistently until the end of dungeon. the problem was, i had never even dropped below 90% and he is hitting me with a heal. over healing like crazy and causing me to just have to spam over power to keep up with it.

not sure if he was doing it to troll or if he was just a noob, but i dealt with it by just making all of my pulls alot bigger. if he wants to spam physick, ill give him a reason to =D

If I'm doing a low-level dungeon with a scholar who is lazy and just stands around when their fairy is doing the healing, I politely ask them to put some dots up on the mobs so we can get through the dungeon quicker.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

You realized that as a SCH, if everyone hates "follow" so much, there is no difference that I still pet heal only and not gonna DPS but just to do /manderville or /change pose or /laugh at the mobs all day long? Well that makes me mash buttons.

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Okay? I'm aware there is no difference which is why I usually stay CS'd but maybe I didn't make it clear enough, I don't care how immature you play your class and wish to be an extra weight to your team. I don't care if a healer never DPS's no more than I care when some Bard refuses to give songs because 'muh dps'. I'll think that they're bad, complete the instance without question and move on.

My issue is /following a teammate and leaving. If nobodies home you're practically a bot, granted a 'legal bot' in this circumstance which I can't believe was SE's intention. So if I ever ran into one of these guys I would vote to kick, cause you may say that you're doing your job but I don't buy it. Last I checked positioning was part of every class and if you simply /follow an entire instance you're forcing that onto some poor teammate that has to keep your avatar out of harms way while keeping it close enough to heal and not get snagged on walls an stuff. That's legit harassment and they have every right to boot you.

So please, stay at the keyboard and mash keys all you want, maybe if your team is lucky you'll accidentally hit Bio.

This thread is really funny because I have been asked to stop DPSing in dungeons a good few times (politely and less than politely) so I always assumed that it was bad manners.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

There's a difference here, the role of DPS is to deal dmg, the role of healer is to heal.

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I'm just using the person I was replying too failed logic, I am dpsing, auto attack will kill the mob albeit very slow, dragging out the healers(and everyone's run just like the healer is doing). Anything more is a bonus, ig the healer can't be bothered then why should I?

Sigh. It's a low lvl dungeon, the healer did his job and kept party alive. Why is that a problem? Even tho he was afk/follow, no one dies, job done. It would be a different story in lost city maybe or any pharos etc.

I don't expect the healer to go all out balls deep dpsing and shit in TAM TARA, like really..? Afk healing with eos in low lvl is fine. U do that somewhere else and people die? Then hell yeah we gonna have a problem.

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Originally Posted by Zagam

I'm just using the person I was replying too failed logic, I am dpsing, auto attack will kill the mob albeit very slow, dragging out the healers(and everyone's run just like the healer is doing). Anything more is a bonus, ig the healer can't be bothered then why should I?

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Because if everyone is at full health with EoS just healing, spamming heals on a already full health target will make the run go faster amirite. By this logic completely new players/healers to the game/dungeons who are trying to get used to healing players so don't wanna jump back and forth between dpsing/healing means they are slowing down the run right?

If you keep me alive, you keep tank alive, you keep group alive, then I'll do my job and kill shit, he/she did their job, I'll do mine.

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Originally Posted by Epistane

Sigh. It's a low lvl dungeon, the healer did his job and kept party alive. Why is that a problem? Even tho he was afk/follow, no one dies, job done.

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Because exploits and cheating are wrong.

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Originally Posted by Kerberon

Because exploits and cheating are wrong.

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It's not an exploit or cheating. You may think it should be considered that, but it doesn't make it so.

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Originally Posted by sarehptar

What kind of amazing low level duty roulette groups are you people getting that you can just kick back and let Eos heal through every single thing? Maybe if you and everyone else in the group is overgeared... I can't be the only healer who ends up with ilvl 25 tanks in Stone Vigil and DPS who eat AoEs like candy... Eos is great, but she can only do so much when faced with stuff like that.

I kind of feel like I should apologize for all the lazy healers present in this thread... I'm a scholar who DPSes! We don't all go AFK!

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Lol. i wouldnt go afk in stone vigil. shit gets real there so-to-speak with the healing you have to do to keep tanks from eating dirt,,, esp if they not near ilvl for the duty

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Originally Posted by ispano

So, serious question. What would you do if the tank and DPS put in the least amount of effort? Say, they only auto attacked til the mobs died. Still more effort than letting the fairy heal everything, but what would you do?

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False equivalence. dps job is to dps. that includes doing more than standing there auto-atking as only aa'ing would waste expected time from the lack of fundamental role fulfillment. Sch only healing would not be wasting time, it would be not giving the group bonus time from bonus healer dmg. sch dmg is icing on the cake, thus the sch is taking away the icing, ie bonus dmg. you are describing taking away the cake, the fundamental part of the role's duty.

another example could be a boss fight like a primal; say levi or king mox ex. If you hit enrage on them it sure as hell is not the healer's fault for not dpsing. same for t7, or even t8. in those 2 turns, sch dps is nice bonus, but we never rely on that dps to beat the turn, or beat the turn in a timely matter (since we talking about time in the first place). same with t9.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

People just like to have something to complain about and feel superior over. SCH's swag healing is a non-issue.

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you already know. haters gonna hate

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Originally Posted by Elim

It's not an exploit or cheating. You may think it should be considered that, but it doesn't make it so.

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I'll agree it isn't really cheating since it is a gameplay design but it most certainly is an exploit. No class in this game can become a 'pseudo-bot' to such a degree with /follow, that I'm sure it's balancing a fine line in breaching the ToS in regards to automated play. I'd genuinely be curious what a GM's stance is on this because while I doubt you'd get in trouble for utilizing this since no third-party program is used, I also doubt they would punish somebody for booting a SCH who afk followed an instance. If anything SE will probably ignore the issue until it becomes more widespread an toxic and are forced to butcher Eos/Selenes' heals when level synched.

Enh. I would consider it pretty widespread already. Ever since launch the fairies could heal low level dungeons solo. I always put on cleric stance and dps while just the letting fairies heal. I also don't consider it an exploit since it doesn't affect the game overall. We're talking low level dungeons here- once you get past level 30 it's a different story and if a person doesn't know how to heal they won't progress very far. If someone is afk healing you can kick them. That's why they added the vote kick function. I think a lot of people are exaggerating. It'd be one thing if you could do this all the way to level 50 but that's not the case. It's certainly not game breaking and far from toxic.

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Originally Posted by Manuka

Had to snip this due to length

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It's not an exploit. lol. Exploiting is cheating and you can be banned over that, knowingly or otherwise. Because other classes can't do it is not a valid argument. On a bard you can regen the parties mana by only clicking one button, /following then AFKing if you want, that's automated. No other class can do that but it's not an exploit. Sure a bard's song(or Eos) might be OP and should be nerfed in some of the public's opinion. Calling it an exploit and saying people should be banned over it(which was in someone else's post) is a little melodramatic. There are many other ways to approach this subject... why do it in this fashion?

SE has known about this since shortly after SCH were released into the game. It does not hold back the team from completing the content or make them suddenly jump to the end. It's a non-issue that sometimes drums up debate over video game ethics.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

False equivalence. dps job is to dps.

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More like a double standard. It's ok for healers to let fairy heal and AFK but not ok for DPS to just auto-attack. Hmmm..

I could care less about many of the general responses in this thread. You all are entitled to your opinion about how you should play your job in a low level dungeon, and others are entitled to kick you from their party if they feel it is harassment, or whatever the individual case may be.

However, please cite me where it says in the ToS, that is a breach of said ToS, for a DD to not use its skills? You quote that info, and you won't hear another word out of me, except for an apology for being wrong. Sound good? Otherwise, expect people with the same piss-poor attitude to join up with you from time to time, and /follow + auto-attack everything in the dungeon.

To use your cake analogy, you want your cake and you want to eat it too. However you are also trying to justify denying other people the fork....

Oh and btw, I'll be waiting for that ToS quote.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

Oh and btw, I'll be waiting for that ToS quote.

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I love how people fall back to the "it's not in the ToS" argument. It's not in the ToS no, but to expect other players to actually play the game when they are in a group with other people isn't absurd. It can be considered trolling, and it can be considered a form of harassment. It isn't black and white, and it doesn't have to be in the ToS to be considered poor behavior deemed unacceptable by the community. You're just relying on the ToS as some sort of excuse to justify terrible behavior. There are many things in the world that aren't illegal by the letter of the law, but are still taboo, immoral, and ethically terrible. By your rules those people are A-OK simply because they aren't against the letter of the law.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

And the fact that you'd be willing sacrifice your party because your healer isn't DPSing just makes you seem petty.

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No it doesn't make him petty it just means he's a proponent of active participation.

Sheeze, I've seen some really stupid crap come from these forums, but I have to say this thread truly takes the cake.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

snip

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Not sure if you are directing this at me, or quoting me and building upon it.

I used the ToS argument because that's what every healer in this thread has said. "It's not in the ToS for me to DPS as a healer" No, I'm sure it's not. AFKing while doing a dungeon, regardless of how menial someone thinks it is, is unethical and would probably be frowned upon by anyone it is happening to. But since "it isn't in the ToS", they feel that their actions are justified.

So I flipped the script. Show me where it says I need to use Heavy Shot even once in the ToS when I play Bard. Technically, my auto-attack is producing numbers calculated as damage, so in their logic I am doing my job and shouldn't be tagged for griefing anyone. They say "players aren't dying, things are being healed, what's the problem?" I say "mobs are dying, progress is being made, who tf cares if you think it isn't going fast enough?"

Personally, if a healer got into my party who was just /follow + fairy heal, I would wait until the end of the dungeon....and I mean the gate right before the last boss and initiate vote kick. Luckily, I don't need the ToS to tell me a healer is doing his/her job by AFKing and healing, I only need one other person to agree with me that healer is being unethical.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

BS over 9000

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i dont know how many times we have to say the same thing over and over. i addressed your first sentence already multiple times. fairy keeps the tank alive so he can tank, fairy keeps the dps so they can dps. the fairy is healing, so the healing role is being fulfilled, as you're not dying. i also mentioned the time factor so im not going to repeat it again.

WTF does ToS have anything to do with what i said? Never did i mention anything about terms of service or use tos as an argument to why a dps should dps. Oh and guess what? I have joined with people who heal and follow. know what we did? beat the dungeon. Not cry that the healer was still healing even though he not at the keyboard or alt-tabbed.

and yes, if i have a piece of cake, you can be sure that i will eat it. i will not just sit there and look at it. (always thought that analogy was dumb) Thus, heal and follow and keep the party alive/not waste time, but not give bonus time if i so choose. or heal in primals/coil and keep party alive/not waste time, but not give bonus time if i so choose.

a dps not dpsing is not taking away bonus time. it's taking away expected time. read the argument.


http://24.media.tumblr.com/324fc72d1...idc6o1_250.gif

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Originally Posted by Asael

No it doesn't make him petty it just means he's a proponent of active participation.

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Don't think endgame sch care about active participation in copperbell normal mode.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

Not sure if you are directing this at me, or quoting me and building upon it.

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Was more building tbh. I see people say this a lot and it's just funny to me that they think it means anything.

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Originally Posted by Elim

-snip-

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I meant exploit more as a design flaw/oversight but if you put it like that, then yeah you're cheating. If you're exploiting this for a reward with zero work besides entering an instance with a specific class, isn't much different than people using bots to gain more profit for minimal effort. And I don't understand the bard analogy. Do you realistically see a bard afk following in an instance and not get booted? I don't.

While I wouldn't like to see people banned for doing this I hope they fix it, it really is unfair to the other people stuck with you. Video game ethics or not, it's just a lame attitude and not something to be proud of.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

Don't think endgame sch care about active participation in copperbell normal mode.

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If by endgame sch you mean someone who was probably carried through everything by their stellar static? Sure (now imagine how well they would be doing with an actual healer). No self respecting healer who is actually worth their salt does this stuff, so with that all you've established so far is the logic, "everyone is being healed, no one is dying, etc etc etc" on the soul justification that you're a special snow flake (ie the cake set in front of you bit).

Anyways, you are a prime example why I don't use DF/PF without multiple FC/LS friends just in the event I run into this kind of garbage. And some wonder why there is an ever growing social rift in the player base. In all honesty if you see me in your party roster and you're planning to do this just drop and re-queue. As I'm going to notice you doing it and I will troll you to the best of my ability and waste as much of your time as I possibly can within the boundaries of ToS. Because hey they're no rules saying I can't just kite you in circles outside of the final boss room for the duration of the dungeon timer while my FC mates kick back and laugh.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

BS over 9001

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Let's break this down, step by step, because obviously paragraphed sentences are too much for you to handle.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

i dont know how many times we have to say the same thing over and over. i addressed your first sentence already multiple times. fairy keeps the tank alive so he can tank, fairy keeps the dps so they can dps. the fairy is healing, so the healing role is being fulfilled, as you're not dying. i also mentioned the time factor so im not going to repeat it again.

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I don't know how many times we have to say the same thing over and over, you being AFK during a dungeon can be considered harassment. Period. IDGAF if your fairy can take care of everyone. All the more reason you can DPS to help everyone accomplish their goal quicker, instead of purposely AFKing during a dungeon. I WILL NOT repeat that again, regardless of how long you care to drag out this argument.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

WTF does ToS have anything to do with what i said? Never did i mention anything about terms of service or use tos as an argument to why a dps should dps. Oh and guess what? I have joined with people who heal and follow. know what we did? beat the dungeon. Not cry that the healer was still healing even though he not at the keyboard or alt-tabbed.

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Maybe you didn't mention the ToS, but it has been mentioned multiple times in this thread. "Healer isn't supposed to DPS blah blah blah." Well, this blends in to your 'expected time' statement (which will be dissected later). You flat-out establish the fact that your character needs to do absolutely nothing for your fairy to heal a low level dungeon. I "expect" you to contribute in other ways that aren't outside the realms of your individual skill. Don't try to preach horseshit and make it out to be filet mignon. And who is crying? Me? I have 100 healer friends in LS/FC that would love to replace you for 100 quick myth tomes right at the end of a dungeon. I don't cry, I act. And I already said what I do in situations such as these. I won't repeat that again either.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

and yes, if i have a piece of cake, you can be sure that i will eat it. i will not just sit there and look at it. (always thought that analogy was dumb) Thus, heal and follow and keep the party alive/not waste time, but not give bonus time if i so choose. or heal in primals/coil and keep party alive/not waste time, but not give bonus time if i so choose.

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You obviously think the analogy is dumb, because you don't understand what it means. That's ok. I won't waste my time on an English lesson. But the analogy itself is sound. All your debate about "bonus time" and "expected time" doesn't mean a damn thing to me. You are basically saying it is ok for you to do something as a healer and it is not ok for a different Job to do the same. Period.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

a dps not dpsing is not taking away bonus time. it's taking away expected time. read the argument.

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First of all, who are you to expect anything out of anyone when you yourself are blatantly fessing up to giving the absolute bare minimum? Here's your double standard. You say "DPS as a healer" is bonus time. What if I think your lucky you even grouped into a random dungeon with me? You don't deserve to expect anything out of anyone when you could care less about making a run more efficient.

Secondly, "expected time" is egregiously subjective. I have seen MNK's perform rotations in dungeons and never once re-position. That is cutting highly into your expected time. However, at least I can recognize whether or not the player is even trying, or AFK. Can offer them tips to make their rotation better, hence turning that player into a better player over time. My 'expected time' was low in the dungeon due to the loss of DPS. You can't expect anything when teaming up with random players, except for the fact that the person is ACTUALLY THERE.

Which you are not.

I see people saying that tanks can't AFK...but in low-level dungeons MRD/WAR just need to Overpower until their TP is gone and then they can literally just stand there and do nothing until the mob is dead and they move on to the next one.

Frankly the only people who can't perform their job while AFK are PLD and DPS. But DPS never get any credit for anything, ha.

Well their is a vote kick option for AFK. Healer on follow and AFK is still AFK, so viable reason to vote kick :)

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Originally Posted by Zagam

Oh and stop the 2-4 commendation per run bs, because you would have the gold mount weeks ago , I imagine your terrible attitude carries over in game and no matter how well you actually play it would still show its ugly head.

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2-4 commendations while playing as a tank and healer is easy. Ask around if you want to. 2 commendations for a 8 man instance for a healer is really very easy. At least in Tonberry Server.

For example:

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x...psf2c3f3de.png

Got 2 commendations as a WHM. I believe the other WHM got at least 2 also.

I didn't have the gold mount (about 36X commendations now) is because was playing DPS mainly and it was about until end of 2.1 I started playing a PLD. Prior to that BRD is the only class I played. Garnered about 100+ commendations before 2.2 launch, and in 2.2 I played WHM for roulettes and BFSR. At the current rate I'd get the gold mount before 2.3.

Yeap I can have an asshole attitude and at the same time people I've played in game that knows me knows that I can have a helpful attitude. It depends on who I'm dealing with.

I am not especially pleased here because of all the unappreciative attitudes and feels that a healer who DPS is an entitlement. Sorry but I still say NO. They can just heal only, semi-afk or afk for all I care as long as the party is kept healthy. If the instance is going slow and they decided to DPS to help or simple choose to DPS and able to keep the party healthy it's a bonus and I'm appreciative of them, and I give them commendations.

Thankfully JP server players are generally appreciative and that's why I said a good healer typically gets good number of commendations. At least in Tonberry Server. IDK about NA but being in a NA server before, it's pretty horrible I'd expect. Yeah, all that entitled attitude.

Healer's sole job is to heal and keep the party healthy. Any extra is a bonus.

Same goes to tanks. A tank's sole job is to hold aggro. If they can deal good DPS too then it's also a bonus.

Like I said - people needs to learn to appreciate good things.

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Originally Posted by Zagam

I'm just using the person I was replying too failed logic, I am dpsing, auto attack will kill the mob albeit very slow, dragging out the healers(and everyone's run just like the healer is doing). Anything more is a bonus, ig the healer can't be bothered then why should I?

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Originally Posted by Alukah

There's a difference here, the role of DPS is to deal dmg, the role of healer is to heal.

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Alukah already corrected you. The SCH is keeping everyone topped off. Proper healing is there. Auto attack is garbage DPS. Well, unless you are talking about the healer barely keeping everyone alive like everyone at 5% HP but no one dies, then your auto-attack analogy stands.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

same thing again, but with added same thing

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

Let's break this down, step by step, because obviously paragraphed sentences are too much for you to handle.

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Couldn't have said it better myself. Let's begin.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

I don't know how many times we have to say the same thing over and over, you being AFK during a dungeon can be considered harassment. Period. IDGAF if your fairy can take care of everyone. All the more reason you can DPS to help everyone accomplish their goal quicker, instead of purposely AFKing during a dungeon. I WILL NOT repeat that again, regardless of how long you care to drag out this argument.

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You DGAF if the fairy can heal everyone in low level dungeon? Sch DGAF about you QQing over them not dpsing. I WILL NOT repeat that again, regardless of how long you want to drag out this argument.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

Maybe you didn't mention the ToS, but it has been mentioned multiple times in this thread. "Healer isn't supposed to DPS blah blah blah." Well, this blends in to your 'expected time' statement (which will be dissected later). You flat-out establish the fact that your character needs to do absolutely nothing for your fairy to heal a low level dungeon. I "expect" you to contribute in other ways that aren't outside the realms of your individual skill. Don't try to preach horseshit and make it out to be filet mignon. And who is crying? Me? I have 100 healer friends in LS/FC that would love to replace you for 100 quick myth tomes right at the end of a dungeon. I don't cry, I act. And I already said what I do in situations such as these. I won't repeat that again either.

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Idc if ToS has been mentioned multiple times in the thread. What sense would it make for me to bring other peoples’ arguments into the argument with you and argue against it as if you were the one who said it towards me? None. You expect a bonus: healer dps. Have a nice time expecting. Yes, you are QQing pretty hard. Idgaf if you have 100 healer friends in LS/FC that would love to replace me or another healer in a low level dungeon. Actually I don’t give two. QQing and acting aren’t mutually exclusive, you are a prime example.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

You obviously think the analogy is dumb, because you don't understand what it means. That's ok. I won't waste my time on an English lesson. But the analogy itself is sound. All your debate about "bonus time" and "expected time" doesn't mean a damn thing to me. You are basically saying it is ok for you to do something as a healer and it is not ok for a different Job to do the same. Period.

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Again, another pointless atk. I wouldn’t make a statement akin to always thinking it was dumb if I didn’t know what it really meant. Thus the response given. Waste of time. Bravo. Sch mechanics allow sch to heal low level w/o being there. Dps does not. If you follow as dps, you will do nothing but follow(outside of certain conditions being met with certain ranged in regards to an auto-atk). Again, the QQing b/c you can’t do what sch do in a small selection of dungeons. If what I say doesn’t mean a damn thing to you, then stop arguing, stop qqing, and just go play with your “100 healer friends.”

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

First of all, who are you to expect anything out of anyone when you yourself are blatantly fessing up to giving the absolute bare minimum? Here's your double standard. You say "DPS as a healer" is bonus time. What if I think your lucky you even grouped into a random dungeon with me? You don't deserve to expect anything out of anyone when you could care less about making a run more efficient.

Secondly, "expected time" is egregiously subjective. I have seen MNK's perform rotations in dungeons and never once re-position. That is cutting highly into your expected time. However, at least I can recognize whether or not the player is even trying, or AFK. Can offer them tips to make their rotation better, hence turning that player into a better player over time. My 'expected time' was low in the dungeon due to the loss of DPS. You can't expect anything when teaming up with random players, except for the fact that the person is ACTUALLY THERE.

Which you are not.

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The absolute bare-minimum of a healer is healing. Eos can efficiently and effectively heal the low-level b4 brayflox, as the run will not slow to a crawl from them only healing. A dps cannot do the same. A tank cannot do the same. SMN could do what sch do and only let pet atk while on follow, but that would only be fulfilling effectiveness(helping make the mob die), but not efficiency of the bare-minimum of the expected role: dps. And yes,actually Icould care less about making a run less efficient, which is why personally, I dps when I go healer in low-level(in addition to liking to dps in general being a reason). However, my argument is about people who go afk and why I don’t have a problem with it. And please, if you’re going to try to atk my intel about analogies/phrases, at least use yours correctly. “Couldn’t care less” is what you were looking for, despite the mistake being somewhat common.

*Sigh* Efficient and effective fundamental role fulfillment. That has been the underlying theme. You have acknowledged that you are aware that is the theme with previous statements. Now you are bringing in arguments by isolating part of my argument, not taking into account the underlying theme, or the context, and then presenting an example to support your isolation. Who cares if you’ve seen bad dps, bad tanks, etc. Who cares if you can give tips on being better. The argument was about efficient and effective fundamental role fulfillment, meaning that we(if we are healing) are grouped with competent party members. Thus, I have always been talking about expected time given that theme is being fulfilled. There is a range of expected time, which will change based on the layout/difficulty of a dungeon(say Copperbell vs Stone Vigil), it takes given that theme is met. That time will get better,thus bonus time, if the healer decides to dps. That time will remain in the expected if he/she does not.

Clearly you can expect something from random players. That person has full allagan gear? Good they’ve been through at least 1st coil, so they should be able to tank/dps this competently . Oh this person has multiple 50s? At the very least I expect them to know the relative simple mechanics of bosses. Oh this one has all 50s? Then they know this dungeon like the back of their hand. Hm this search info for this dps says he/she was server first in second coil t8, with both a melee and ranged being high ilvl; So I can expect this dps to basically yawn through this easy low-level, where combos/rotations are very small/simple. Expectations can be set quite easily in low-level roulette.

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Originally Posted by Kuroyasha

will insert answer through edit. please hold.

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I been waiting for your bullsh*t response for over 30mins now. Oh, you must be AFK-responding.

/duh

Whatever you say isn't worth my time anyway. Have a pleasant day.