DPS Tool

Regardless of people's opinion, it would make the community go downhill like it did for WoW and Rift. I hope SE keeps the game like this, addon free.

damage meters were in wow all the way back in molten core, so I don't know what basis you are using for 'downhill' since that is how the game always has been

Always been around in Rift too, even before the addon API. I remember using ACT to yell at people who weren't attacking Noxious Bracken/Pollen enough in Lord Greenscale :p

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Originally Posted by Raenryong

The whole party finder system encourages discrimination, and discrimination in this context is not a bad thing. We should freely be allowed to discriminate about who we party with - some people don't want "jerks", some people don't want bad dps, some people don't want impatient people, etc etc. If you dislike someone's standards, don't play with them.

And often you do - DPS checks are often the harshest part of this game. You could throw yourself at T8 forever only to find that someone is doing 200 DPS and as such you will never win without a miracle, for instance.

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no do don't harrass people if you don't want to party them take the penalty the person you don't want to play with has done nothing wrong.

if you're in pf leave dungeon kick the player but do not harass them.

All the naysayers are ignoring the fact that PC gamers already have access to these tools; and, are making asinine claims based on personal experience and 'what-if' scenarios rather than reality of the community as a whole.

SE not implementing official addons in-game is basically turning a blind eye to the advantage PC gamers have with these tools over the Console gamers.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

no do don't harrass people if you don't want to party them take the penalty the person you don't want to play with has done nothing wrong.

if you're in pf leave dungeon kick the player but do not harass them.

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Harassment is not the same as discrimination.

Discrimination = "Please know the fight, please do good DPS"
Harassment = "lol look at that guy's gear, let's send him some obnoxious /tells"

Good Players will do research, test, read things up, improve etc regardless of using a parser. They do not need a parser to be a good player or get better, but does it help to actually see some accurate numbers? Yes it does and they can improve even more. Theorycrafters did their thing before the first parsers were out and here it is the same; They do not need a parser, but it does help to get more accurate calculations.


Parsers did exist in 1.0 and do since early 2.0. They do exist in many games, regardless of being allowed or not. People will use them regardless of being allowed or not. They allready use it in FFXIV and will keep using it and it does not matter if SE will allow it or it. If those people get caught using it, well shit happens and i guess that is all people want. Having a "legal" use of a parser, so they don't risk getting their account suspended. They allready judge people in Raids, Dungeons or w/e, so i don't really see how having it "legal" will change anything about the Community.

Depending on the way SE would allow it, also i doubt they will in the near future, it could be actually have an positive influence, since PS3/PS4 players can't use 3rd Party tools. Let aside for a second that 3rd Party tools are not allowed, how can PS Players improve their gameplay/dps/numbers w/e, if they can't use said tools due "PS limitations" ( sorry i had to :rolleyes: )? Adding official support, or an official parser would help those people a lot. It should not be mandatory tho and i can think of a couple ways, which people would maybe like as well. Lets say adding some sort of "Trial Behest", where people have to reach a certain dps to progress further, or to get a certain Reward? I am pretty sure SE could pull something like that and also, they've showed their own parser in a couple official screenshots. They do look nifty.. xD

But yeah, a parser or dps-meter is not really a bad thing, the people using it the wrong way is the bad part about it.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Your common sense got actually proven wrong.

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He actually enforces what I've been stating in the past.

If difficulty wasn't so high and these requirements never existed there wouldn't be a need for LFR in WoW. LFR wasn't in WoW for the first 3 expansions for a reason.

Yet because people continued to beg for hard content and because a big portion of their population couldn't complete it and they were losing subscriptions over it. Challenge ended up gated behind secluded groups and LFR became the "handout" method. Keep pushing that mentality that drove WoW to take those extremes and it's gonna come to a point that the dev team here in FFXIV will have enough and they too may take those drastic measures. In which statics is the challenge method and DF becomes the handout method or some other form that may separate the community further.

That what he said in his video already happens here. With ilvl90 there was no need to have 4 skilled people to do the old 50 dungeons so if you have 3 balanced players the 4th doesn't matter. With ilvl96 that 2rd dps doesn't need to perform like the rest to have 5 minute BFHM SR. Hell if I DF Brayflox and the group wants to do full pulls all I ask is that they stay alive and keep them mobs bunched up enough for me to finish my 3rd flare after that it doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by Killance

Regardless of people's opinion, it would make the community go downhill like it did for WoW and Rift. I hope SE keeps the game like this, addon free.

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ACT was the only thing that made Rift entertaining the last couple of months I played while rolling through the dungeons.
The zones had no more challenge so trying to improve DPS through a zone made it entertaining.
A lot of the time people would randomly ask if anyone was running ACR so that they could see how they were doing.
Not once did I ever see anyone bitched at when the numbers were posted in group chat.

It was the same in EQ2. However there it was common to know what DPS and HPS were needed to even be able to complete a dungeon.
We could tell pretty early whether completing the zone was possible. if not we just moved to something else. It was great being able to take a pug to another dungeon if the group clicked and we were having fun.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

All I have to use is common sense

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Made up facts on based on personal feelings.
seems legit.

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Originally Posted by Logo

Made up facts on based on personal feelings.
seems legit.

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b-b-but....all these things happened to me personally, therefore it applies to everyone and every situation. :(

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Originally Posted by Logo

Made up facts

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Guess FFXI got easier because of my "personal feelings" and not because getting people to catch up.

Guess it was based on my "personal feelings" that nerfs are needed. Guess it is based on my "personal feelings" that echo is a thing.

DPS checks are a demerit that doesn't help anyone and it only serves as a tool for elitist to justify being jerks. Deadly Boss Mods is something that's helpful because it reminds people that they should react and what they are reacting too.

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Originally Posted by Hadrefortz

Why do people think only the top tier players use addons, this is a subscription mmo, addon support should have been included at launch. Why are people defending SE for not having addon support, it's mind boggling.

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I'm not defending SE for not having add on support. I'm pointing out that the entire argument is pointless. No matter how much anyone screams or flails their arms SE will not add anything that has the slightest chance of causing lost casual subscriptions. Parsers have a negative stereotype that they're only used to abuse other players for underperforming. You can scream about how there's plenty of players that don't use them like that until you turn blue but because the loudest and most well known portion of the parser enthusiast group are the people that abuse it SE simply won't have any part of it. To them casual players are their source of money while hardcore players may as well be second class citizens. It doesn't help your case when the people that do abuse them come into the thread talking down to the people that are against parsers trying to make them look like "bads" or "people with something to hide". You can only blame the abusers for the game's lack of add-on support. SE's only doing what they think will lead to the most profits and retained subscriptions.

You do not need a parser to win. Parcer are good for a bit of theory crafting, but SE has made content on parsers strictly sub optimal or in other cases, detrimental.

You know you're doing good, if you have done the content to the level of
1: Your up time on bosses is high (if you're not hitting you're not doing good and death is obviously bad)
2: Phases of burst are properly done. AKA add phases where people save alll their Buffs/CDs
3: hitting the proper thing at the proper time. Randomly hitting stuff is bad

Stuffing a parser doesn't make you any better at the content.

Case in point is a blm who does bad on parser still pays his way in uses by simply being able to burst down adds fast with their flare and fire 3s.

Or a smn that can do some nice damage simply wipes the pt from lack of burst timing skills.

You need a job to perform xyz and abc. and you need people who can do certain things without messing up.

parsing is way way below that. Even the almighty T8 where it's one big punchy dummy, is still in the end, not really parser super friendly. Most of that fight is not screwing up the mechanics and keeping up time on the bosses. aka optimization. (and it also doesn't take a parser to tell you 3 monks and a brd can rip it to shreds, since 2 of those mnk are not on dk duty, with inf tp).

There are people that never parse a day in their life constantly hit the top scores by just doing things properly and their rotations well versed.

You don't need to know a rotation is good with a parser, simply by using it often, and reading their skill description.

Lets keep it civil and on topic please.

SE says we can't have battle parsers. That's a topic in itself to debate. Not really what I wanted this thread to discuss. I just want to work with what we already know we can't have and still try to get some raw numbers in some way.

Given we already know their stance on the subject. I started the thread with a simple idea to get some sort of tool that uses the dummies. I think this would only has positive impact in the game. This should in a small way please many and offend no one. If only the individuals in a dummy session can see the results, I don't see any reason for conflict.

Parsing dummy usage examples:

Know your potential DPS/HPS. Improve your potential. Test newly acquired gear's impact on potential. Test speed build vs crit build vs det build. Find out which of your several jobs has the highest potential. See people in the world training on dummies. Fun at Fc houses by letting parties hit the parsing dummies together. Dummy mode that randomly places aoe under the player striking to practice reaching potential while moving (only registering hits in the results not in damage). Idk, just some thoughts on it's use for some entertainment and function. I could go on.

Didn't we have something like this in FFXI? Built-in I mean? Does anyone have a legitimate reason on why they didn't add that system to this game? And on/off topic, is there a reason why we can't call out percentages for the boss' HP? Is that feature removed from here as well? Or am I too Barbie and am missing it?

I fail to understand this "discrimination" issue.

There is already a "discrimination" system in place, by the game itself - the ilvl requirement. That is the same as the old "gearscore", and is, in fact, the dumbest kind of discrimination ever.

ilvl is just nominal - you might be an ilvl 100 playing so bad that an ilvl 70 guy can outdps you. On the other hand, an objective "dps value" would be a way more precise measure of a player's skill.
Still "discrimination", sure - but at least a reasonable one.

By the way, I think we should stop using the word "discrimination" to describe "wanting other people to carry their weight", because this is how it's being used.

I expect a lot of the people calling out "discrimination" are the ones who join a "Farm Party" for Ex's and expect to be carried.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Guess FFXI got easier because of my "personal feelings" and not because getting people to catch up.

Guess it was based on my "personal feelings" that nerfs are needed. Guess it is based on my "personal feelings" that echo is a thing.

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I don't think you understand what DPS checks are.
DPS checks are helpful because they give you a heads up, let you know if you're ready for the instance.

But a simple fact that can't be argued.
More info is good when trying to figure out how to best play your character.
DPS meter would give us more info.
Simple.

Honestly its just a game.
If you feel like not reaching a certain level of proficiency with your job, so be it.

But please understand why other people don't want to play with you.
It's not because they are jerks.
It's because they are better than you.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

By the way, I think we should stop using the word "discrimination" to describe "wanting other people to carry their weight", because this is how it's being used.

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This x1000

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Deadly Boss Mods is something that's helpful because it reminds people that they should react and what they are reacting too.

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SO basically you don't want parsers / dps checks, but you want a tool that actually shuts the player's brain off in order to make an encounter even easier than how it already is.

Yes, DBM is "helpful". Even someone else clearing the content for you is "helpful".

Guess what.
People don't want "help". They want to play. The only people wanting help are those that, for one reason or another, are unable to clear the current content without being carried.

Avoiding or decrying the use/need for a Parser because some people may use it to discriminate is like staying illiterate or burning libraries down because some books have bad words and foreign concepts in them.


Knowing what you're doing and how to improve is real freakin' neato.

even without a DPS tool, people harass others for "under performing" as it is already.

If all had the same game implemented DPS tool, you could call someones bull out. Now "Your DPS sucks I did xxx more than you, my parser tells me" commence chocobo droppings hitting the fan. Future "Your DPS sucks I did xxx more than you, my parser tells me" "You sure know we all have this parser at know you are lying" commence goobbue droppings hitting the fan.


If someone wants to be mean, he doesn't need DPS tools, they'll find something. And even if it just is "Your miqo has the standard face, kick" :|

Someone who plays a dps job doesn't like dps checks. Hmmm

I am fine with SE not integrating DPS tool into the game but please do legalize the usage of 3rd party DPS meter.

Without DPS meter, i cannot improve myself.
Without DPS meter, i cannot know the '1-2-3' DRG standing beside me is slacking. (illustration)
Without DPS meter, i cannot gauge the miss rate to extract the ACC cap for boss fight.

I mean, tbh, those who uses DPS meter for boasting and to confront fellow DPS mate because they did 20-30 DPS lower can be categorize as a jerk but believe me when i say i see people doing half of what a DPS should be doing in that content with the same gear. These is the kind of people i am trying to exclude in my future raid/duty as they are obviously expecting a carry or do not want to engage in learning to be better.

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Originally Posted by Marcusow86

I am fine with SE not integrating DPS tool into the game but please do legalize the usage of 3rd party DPS meter.

Without DPS meter, i cannot improve myself.
Without DPS meter, i cannot know the '1-2-3' DRG standing beside me is slacking. (illustration)
Without DPS meter, i cannot gauge the miss rate to extract the ACC cap for boss fight.

I mean, tbh, those who uses DPS meter for boasting and to confront fellow DPS mate because they did 20-30 DPS lower can be categorize as a jerk but believe me when i say i see people doing half of what a DPS should be doing in that content with the same gear. These is the kind of people i am trying to exclude in my future raid/duty as they are obviously expecting a carry or do not want to engage in learning to be better.

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They can't legalize it because legalizing 3rd party add ons would open the doors for cheating and bot programs.

Well, I agree on SE not wanting group dps parsers, because they will be used more for harassing than for other purposes.
But I think if your client show just your own dps, does not hurts anybody, and helps me decide which rotation more effective when I'm in dubt.

Then, about "slacking" dps, I can write books on that. But the essential is when you PUG and the dps of overall group is not enough, you will notice it and then it is your choose if keep on the group or leave the group. Enter a PUG and then pretend to kick out bad apples and keep in the good players is quite nonsense. PUGs are give or take. You will make selection on premades.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

By the way, I think we should stop using the word "discrimination" to describe "wanting other people to carry their weight", because this is how it's being used.

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Or we could take a step back and realize that discrimination is not a bad thing. I mean, we all discriminate against certain foods (for example) for a variety of reasons from taste to texture to allergies to healthfulness. Or, I dunno, maybe someone out there is gnawing on their desk as they read this and thinking I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Discrimination is not an issue unless the standards become unreasonably strict or unless it's accompanied by harassment. There's nothing wrong with "Sorry, I don't think your Darklight Bow is going to cut it in LX." There *is* something wrong with "LFG WPSR Zenith and Myth gear required." There's also, clearly, something wrong with "OMFG, your DPS is only 200? WTH is wrong with you? Are you stupid? Do you even know what you're doing?"

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Well, I agree on SE not wanting group dps parsers, because they will be used more for harassing than for other purposes.
But I think if your client show just your own dps, does not hurts anybody, and helps me decide which rotation more effective when I'm in dubt.

Then, about "slacking" dps, I can write books on that. But the essential is when you PUG and the dps of overall group is not enough, you will notice it and then it is your choose if keep on the group or leave the group. Enter a PUG and then pretend to kick out bad apples and keep in the good players is quite nonsense. PUGs are give or take. You will make selection on premades.

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I agree to an extent.

I've been in many DF parties when there's been DPS, Healing, Tanking, or other issues at time that present themselves. While DPS may have helped sometimes avoiding mechanics and being alive are better in others. Regardless it's a constant changing variable depending on fights, when it happens, and "certain amount of damage being dealt" to get through the fight or a phase. Yet having max dps isn't gonna solve every issue that presents itself because if it did Titan Ex and Twintania would not be a thing now at all and everyone would be having less and less trouble in the new coil as they got closer to an average ilvl of 100 or 110. "DPS checks" are not in anyway more important than dealing with mechanics. The overall fight progress is what is important and it doesn't ask for these extreme dps numbers.

Back when people would do the level 50 dungeons after just hitting level 50 Demon Wall in AK was a road block and despite people getting philo gear it didn't get better but those with full DL made it more tolerable. Caster LB was the "hope" to clearing the fight. Yet Bee's didn't die from the caster LB. So knockbacks and paralyze were still needed to be taken into consideration. There was various times that called for drastic measures and on average it was just me and a tank that stayed alive after bee's and instead of dpsing we dragged the last 5-10% of the fight on through my off healing (Physick) and switching back in fort between so I would take the damage of the tank. Which eventually allowed Demon Wall to die through a prolonged fight in which I a blm mage was not DPSing but was spending most of my time and the tank dealing very minimal damage and keeping our HP up enough to survive and finish it off.

In Titan HM the issue of people dying to landslide was always and issue and sometimes we had the potential to push past the heart phase before DPS started dying to bombs, weight of the land, landslide or tumult. Yet despite the lack of 1 or 2 DPS the fight could be pushed and still be killed, yet the group now has 0 margin for error. The rest of the fight needed to be picture perfect even if it meant doing 1, 2, or 3 more additional final phase rotations on Titan. For Titan Extreme you don't get that luxury unless it happens between gaolers which only offers a limited window to do so.

In Turn 1 sometimes there's just too much spike and the boss is alive with only 5% HP left which can be down. Yet on average no bard or healer wants to use their LB as someone kites as long as possible so it can be poked down.

Yet regardless of all that rant.

If people really want a "tool" for DPS and SE does ever consider caving in to their demands then it will have to be adjusted to consider "group contribution" and SE is gonna need to consider releasing the bosses HP numbers and the total groups DPS contribution numbers. Since overall it doesn't matter if everyone does Max DPS because those numbers over do it. As long as a certain threshold of "group damage" is being dealt then the "DPS checks" are met regardless of who isn't pulling their weight with "max dps".

Yet as it stands people throughout this thread only want to know who is doing the least amount of DPS so they can justify harassment level of criticism. That only serves to give rise to more and more harassment which is not needed. There has been rarely any rational argument on why it's a benefit or how it should be implemented properly so that it can be a beneficial tool for the "party" and probably should be restricted to the 1 player that being the party leader. Instead all we see is that if someone disagrees they lash out and neglect to bring up the importance of everything else that happens in a fight over "dps numbers". So over the past 15 pages anyone pro "DPS tools" has not bothered with being helpful in presenting their case of "DPS tools" and I who am against it have tried to help and instead I get met with people that constantly prove why DPS tools are there to justify harassment.

Since as far as rotations go that can be done without the need of a DPS meter by checking rotational guide videos people put up for you to watch or going to the classes n job section in the forums.

So as it stands within these past 15 pages. This entire topic has been negative and toxic with people only trying to put down those that aren't pro DPS meters. If this is how on average the attitude of the majority that wants DPS meters is then you can image how bad it will be if this was a debate with over thousands of people in it.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Guess FFXI got easier because of my "personal feelings" and not because getting people to catch up.

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When FFXI got easier it started hemorrhaging subs (abyssea) and I really suggest you look at the game again because they 180ed that (though probably too late) and FFXI itself has DPS checks in the form of rage timers, instance timers, and "the monster loses intrest and fades away" which were quite common to see if you didnt play with decent players. WoW even in LFR there are rage timers and idk how many times even this week I have seen groups fail on meeting them for stuff like Thokk the Bloodthirsty. Speaking of have you seen what direction WoW is going with LFR making it less desirable to run in the next expansion ? How about how it will be REQUIRED to pass a role check in the proving grounds to run heroics so that you have proven to understand your role well enough to be allowed to participate in harder content. If you are going to start throwing "facts" out to support your claims I would highly suggest researching what you are talking about first.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Yet as it stands people throughout this thread only want to know who is doing the least amount of DPS so they can justify harassment level ofcriticism. That only serves to give rise to more and more harassment which is not needed. There has been rarely any rational argument on why it's a benefit or how it should be implemented properly so that it can be a beneficial tool for the "party" and probably should be restricted to the 1 player that being the party leader. Instead all we see is that if someone disagrees they lash out and neglect to bring up the importance of everything else that happens in a fight over "dps numbers". So over the past 15 pages anyone pro "DPS tools" has not bothered with being helpful in presenting their case of "DPS tools" and I who am against it have tried to help and instead I get met with people that constantly prove why DPS tools are there to justify harassment.

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I could say the same to you, in my eyes you keep saying harassment, make up facts and have yet to provide any compelling and reasonable argue,ent for your case. Parsers have been used in my FC's 2 coil groups and while I don't coil I can see the benefit of having them. One of our bards who was a higher iLv. than the 2nd bard in one group was sitting at 230 dps while the other bard was at 313, rather than just blindly saying the group sucks and can't beat a rage timer or start replacing people the source was seen, the player was taken to the striking dummies by the raid leader and they looked at was going on. With some work they now do 300ish. It's not a tool to harass its a tool to assess and adjust. The other raid group you would think that the blm is the problem due to the class and movement heavy mechanics but with a parser it was shown that the problem was not the blm and the group adjusted without replacing a member based on assumption. Will some use it to harass maybe will a majority use it for benefit most likely. In these 2 cases it would have been more harassing to not have a parser.

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Originally Posted by ziddyt

Says someone who's never done Coil.
If a group is not meeting the DPS checks in the end-game content, they need to know why, there's no debating that.

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Weird that we got it that far without parsing the damage. Sould be completely impossible as you say. 2 of our groups are close to enter T9. How can that be without parsing?

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Originally Posted by Yurimi

One of our bards who was a higher iLv. than the 2nd bard in one group was sitting at 230 dps while the other bard was at 313, rather than just blindly saying the group sucks and can't beat a rage timer or start replacing people the source was seen, the player was taken to the striking dummies by the raid leader and they looked at was going on. With some work they now do 300ish. It's not a tool to harass its a tool to assess and adjust.

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That!
Why do many people fail to understand that parsers do more good than bad?
If people want to disciminate others they do so, they don't need a parser for that...
If you see someone doing like half your damage a good player is less likely to insult him, but more likely to give him advice how to get better, the other person won't see the numbers and would think the nice guy that is providing help here is just being a dick.

DPS check come ingame in fom of solo content. Was already said in the live letter.
You don't cleared the content = your damage was not good enough

But a personal DPS check would also ok, I think. Something only you can see, maybe also something that give grades after a boss battle (1 star = very bad, 5 stars = very good)

Example:
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...lts_FFXIII.png

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

Weird that we got it that far without parsing the damage. Sould be completely impossible as you say. 2 of our groups are close to enter T9. How can that be without parsing?

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So close to enter means wiping on the avatar, the biggest DPS check in the game. One that gets progressively easier as people gear. mhmm.

Also it's not parsing but I'd like to see a t9 clear group speak out against addons, and in particular describe how they phase to Bahamut's Favor correctly without seeing the boss %.

don't want it creates elitist BS .... you need X amount of dps or this job or you can't come to my party ... nope sorry its garbage... and in the live letter Yosi said this and they won't be implemented!!! /cheer

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Originally Posted by dcdistro

don't want it creates elitist BS .... you need X amount of dps or this job or you can't come to my party ... nope sorry its garbage... and in the live letter Yosi said this and they won't be implemented!!! /cheer

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Hate to break it for you but people do that even now whether it's okay or not, you have no proof that they have used a parser, they can come up with anything really.
Parser is not allowed but aslong as people stay quiet about using it themselves there is no harm.
So currently console players are the only ones affeced as they can't run a parser even if they want to.

SE needs to add a parser to the game or make them legal to use.

Either that or they need to stop making DPS checks on everything. Aka remove the rage timers / mob will kill you in X sec mechanics completely.

Almost every fight has dps checks currently in the game and no one "Legally" can see the damage output. Currently in game you have situations where you have 1 blm doing potentially 340dps and another doing 170dps in equal gear.... I understand how it could be used negatively, but people need to be able to see dmg output in a game that demands X dmg to win.

Right now all SE is doing is forcing many endgame players to risk their account by using now Illegal 3rd party tools to beat the hardest parts of endgame.

http://puu.sh/93rSB.jpg

Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

snip

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You ignore anything said, but regardless: I will tell you why it is a beneficial tool to a party. It is a beneficial tool to a party so that seven people do not suffer for one. Six do not suffer for two, etc. It is a beneficial tool because any aspect of the fight can be monitored - DPS, HPS, cooldown usage, buff uptimes... etc.

Nobody has ever claimed DPS is all that matters. It is just important. You are the one who keeps turning it into a tangent about how DPS isn't the only thing, while nobody has claimed otherwise...