Crafter=Botter (90%)

Ger a few bongs up ya, slap the music on, crafting is alright.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

yaya, we heard you the first time.

I still believe that if SE found a way to make crafting some sort of FUN minigame instead of a menu-choice fest people would bot less.

It's not about making it more complex so programming bots gets harder, but about making people want to do it.

Think all those silly iphone 3-bucks games, steal the gameplay of 30 or so and adapt them into crafting. Yes it's a lot of work but at least crafting would equal playing.

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yaya, i heard you the first time as well.

i still believe that no matter how fun they made the process people that bot now would bot then. crafting has bots just like battle and gathering is in this game and every game has bots no matter how fun the game is.

if fun was the criteria then why did xi have alot of botters since so many liked that game? why does wow have it even though it has alot of people that love it? the reason is because fun has nothing to do with getting ahead without any effort. people want the easy way out without having to work for it and some go to the extremes like cheating and using bots to get there.

people bot to get ahead and the best way to curve botters is to bring out the ban hammer on them and get them out of the game. i just don't see that happening until the servers become more populated and the game goes p2p.

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Originally Posted by Victor

@LateReg Every post I see from you in every forum you're bragging or linking your ffxivpro page!

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ihu :( and that's only the 2nd time! and for a very similar purpose!

It's possible to have multiple 50s with fair gaming, but I know many people who bot and nobody seems to care. It annoys me too. But perhaps SE should have tried making crafting-progression less boring?

Any mindless/brainless can rank up crafting, that is how bot exist.
SE should change the mini-game to make it use more brain, I m sure bot can not play puzzle game that random every times. So just make it puzzle and all will be good. (card game, testis, whatever, but please no laggy-silly one like parley)

So I agree on the part that the system encourage bot, However I disagree on the part that people must bot to get R50. Other people just simply can do what you can't, you gotta admit this.

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Originally Posted by Alise

Any mindless/brainless can rank up crafting, that is how bot exist.
SE should change the mini-game to make it use more brain, I m sure bot can not play puzzle game that random every times. So just make it puzzle and all will be good. (card game, testis, whatever, but please no laggy-silly one like parley)

So I agree on the part that the system encourage bot, However I disagree on the part that people must bot to get R50. Other people just simply can do what you can't, you gotta admit this.

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If you can do it, an algorithm can be made. Once you have an algorithm, a bot can be made.

The only difference would be in the complexity of program.

when i craft, i dont reply to whisper, because ima spamming my standard syn while watching some recorded movies.

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It's possible to have multiple 50s with fair gaming, but I know many people who bot and nobody seems to care. It annoys me too. But perhaps SE should have tried making crafting-progression less boring?

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This. Theoretically, it is possible without botting. But it's no secret that a good portion of the "true hardcore" crafters are using a bot of some sort. Hell, it's so easy to do, and since SE does absolutely nothing against it (and will not do anything in the near future) - I understand why they do it.

They will not get banned now, because atm, SE is fully busy with reviving the game. I seriously doubt they actually invest power in the so-called "anti-rmt-task-force" or even collect data on suspicious activity. And good luck proving someone is a botter without direct 1-on-1 observation. That's simply not a priority right now.

And they will not bet banned in the future either, because by the time the task-force finally becomes active, they will be busy weeding out the new botters, and not those that botted 6 months ago. It's very sad, but I think those who bot now will actually be the "winners" in the long run - they make use of a blind spot in FFXIV's history, where no rules whatsoever are enforced.

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Originally Posted by Shyd

FFXIV + Beer + Netflix = 50 crafter

Its easy to craft and watch movies and relax.

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I like that idea!!!!

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Originally Posted by Alise

I'm sure bot can not play puzzle game that random every times. So just make it puzzle and all will be good

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While I do like the sentiment behind your post, and agree that it should be made harder to bot, one must remember that bots can be programmed to perform almost any task more efficently than a human regardless of how complex it is. This is how we ended up with computers that could defeat chess champions. No matter how complex crafting/gathering is made, it will always be possible to create a bot to perform the same task better than a human could.

The best we can hope for is that SE make crafting/gathering more fun for people who do it legitimately and implement their own bot identification system to allow them to rid the game of those who cheat the game in this way.

Hmm, personal experience I've only ever seen jumbled name RMT bot crafting, plus maybe 2-3 actual legit players who I've suspected. I'd be very surprised if the actual figure of bot crafters is more than 5%

But it doesnt matter so much. Once those botters hit 50, they're left with the mass spam synths for money rather than playing the market like a good crafter does, so they're not really affecting legit crafters to any great extent. HQ bot? nah, wont happen!

I raised weaver and leather to 50 before the SP was boosted. 150-350 SP max a synth. It took entire runs of maybe 5-6 tv shows plus countless films but when it's done in that way, or whilst chatting to LS mates... its really nice and relaxing. With the SP as it is now, getting a craft up high isn't that much of a grind, especially if you know how to approach it - crafting = socialise/net browsing/film watching time, very relaxing.

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Originally Posted by Zephir

I know that SE do nothing about this...I know that there are person that say in this forum (I'm Botting and SE do nothing)

But this is my idea...

days ago I'm at friend's home and my eyes was catched by a little lalafell on screen with my friend that was engage in crafting (in legal and normal way)

After around half hour i am definitively that NOBODY (normal, with a social life) can have multiple 50 craft without a bot assistance.

Or a perso is an Android or is quite impossible to stay hour and hour in crafting..

We don't talk about fishing and etc... that are more terrible.

Personally i don't like crafting....but in older system (like FFXI) is possible to reach lv 100 craft with fair gaming.

Here with failure of recipe, random exp, and bad crafting system (made to encourage botting).

I like FFXIV but is very very very bad to see botter all around the game.... a game that, again, with him mechanics encourage BOT and not fair players....

Shame on SE....

Possibility to craft(BOT) in istance is again a very unhappy choice. that seem to be a gift for unfair players

When GOB bounty hunters against bot? (near every mining/logging point and etc?)

Or aggro mercenary lv 99? (XD)

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90% of players with poor english are bots, did you know this? I'm going to assume you are a bot since this post is well over an hour old and you clearly are not normal, nor have a social life.

I don't understand are we supporting bots now? Most of the comments on here seem that way. I say ban them SE stop taking so long please you know you wanna. Do it you know who they are ban them for us, for you. They spit in your face SE make them curse their lives.

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Originally Posted by Ichi

I don't understand are we supporting bots now? Most of the comments on here seem that way. I say ban them SE stop taking so long please you know you wanna. Do it you know who they are ban them for us, for you. They spit in your face SE make them curse their lives.

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no one is really supporting them, but there is a huge misunderstanding with some people as to why they exist

it has nothing to do with THIS GAME that causes people to bot

people bot, because they can, they are the same people who will bot in every single mmo they can get away with it in, regardless of how hard or easy something is

and the solution is quite simple, ban them all


making the mini games "more fun" isnt a solution, as lets face it, no one has a good idea for what more fun means(and hell no to playing bejeweled or something like that for a mini game)

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Originally Posted by Arch_Blegan

Zephir is making more sense than everyone else who's trying to misrepresent his point of view. I'll sum it up for all the self righteous snobs here who think they're better:

He's saying that a real friend wouldn't sit back and let their friend do something that would cause themselves (or others) harm. What's wrong with that?

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because he is associating this logic with botters, while at the same time making ridiculous accusations of saying 90% of crafters that have multiple 50s are botters.

Ahah TheVedis, we need angry birds as the mini game. I'm always running phone battery out playing that game.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

no one is really supporting them, but there is a huge misunderstanding with some people as to why they exist

it has nothing to do with THIS GAME that causes people to bot

people bot, because they can, they are the same people who will bot in every single mmo they can get away with it in, regardless of how hard or easy something is

and the solution is quite simple, ban them all


making the mini games "more fun" isnt a solution, as lets face it, no one has a good idea for what more fun means(and hell no to playing bejeweled or something like that for a mini game)

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One way to abate botting is to make crafting-progression based on questing rather than having it based on spamming recipes and hording materials.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

i still believe that no matter how fun they made the process people that bot now would bot then. crafting has bots just like battle and gathering is in this game and every game has bots no matter how fun the game is.

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Hate to admit it but he's right here. No matter how fun it actually is, people will be regardless. Some might bot LESS but you will never get rid of it. Some people would rather have a program play the game for them, that's just how it is.

This game's crafting system has the potential to be bot unfriendly. Because you can get through most synths just spamming Standard it makes botting possible. If you actually had to pay attention to the light and choose different options based on that like I imagine it was supposed to be then botting would be pretty tough.

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Originally Posted by Zephir

I know that SE do nothing about this...I know that there are person that say in this forum (I'm Botting and SE do nothing)

But this is my idea...

days ago I'm at friend's home and my eyes was catched by a little lalafell on screen with my friend that was engage in crafting (in legal and normal way)

After around half hour i am definitively that NOBODY (normal, with a social life) can have multiple 50 craft without a bot assistance.

Or a perso is an Android or is quite impossible to stay hour and hour in crafting..

We don't talk about fishing and etc... that are more terrible.

Personally i don't like crafting....but in older system (like FFXI) is possible to reach lv 100 craft with fair gaming.

Here with failure of recipe, random exp, and bad crafting system (made to encourage botting).

I like FFXIV but is very very very bad to see botter all around the game.... a game that, again, with him mechanics encourage BOT and not fair players....

Shame on SE....

Possibility to craft(BOT) in istance is again a very unhappy choice. that seem to be a gift for unfair players

When GOB bounty hunters against bot? (near every mining/logging point and etc?)

Or aggro mercenary lv 99? (XD)

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You are an idiot!

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Originally Posted by Krausus

because he is associating this logic with botters, while at the same time making ridiculous accusations of saying 90% of crafters that have multiple 50s are botters.

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I took it as a hyperbole, all the wise-guys out there took it literally. Bots ruin the game and if you've ever played an online FPS you know first hand how infuriating it is when someone uses a bot.

I'm sure he's right. Crafting is too boring to do legit. Well unless you have downe syndrome or something.

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Originally Posted by Arch_Blegan

I took it as a hyperbole, all the wise-guys out there took it literally. Bots ruin the game and if you've ever played an online FPS you know first hand how infuriating it is when someone uses a bot.

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the type of bots you are referring to are not the same type of bots that are in FFXIV, bots in FPS give combat advantages that have a direct negative effect on other players, where as bots in FFXIV just screw up the economy. Though I agree bots are bad for any game and punishment should be applied to those using them I would hardly compare the use of bots to that of criminal activity and then make statements that not only a majority but an astounding amount of the majority (an extreme amount of hyperbole) take advantage of said bots. I personally believe that a small minority use bots.

PS: hyperbole IMO is the worst thing for any MMO I have seen it greatly influence Dev decisions.

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Originally Posted by Eugenics

Ahah TheVedis, we need angry birds as the mini game. I'm always running phone battery out playing that game.

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WIN. lol!!

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Hate to admit it but he's right here. No matter how fun it actually is, people will be regardless. Some might bot LESS but you will never get rid of it. Some people would rather have a program play the game for them, that's just how it is.

This game's crafting system has the potential to be bot unfriendly. Because you can get through most synths just spamming Standard it makes botting possible. If you actually had to pay attention to the light and choose different options based on that like I imagine it was supposed to be then botting would be pretty tough.

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this was the problem with the overall society i was talking about arcell. at no point was i trying to defend bots because it is pathetic, but pointing out the nature alot of people use their daily lives. we are in the me me me Me ME age. i haven't understood why anyone would get a game to bot instead of playing it.

the only thing i worry about is your second point you bring up. yes, making multiple different outcomes on each synth attempt will make coding botters harder, but nowhere near impossible. if you have a general idea of how to parse data you can program a bot. no matter how much things change in the crafting system if it involves the use of data then there is a way to program it in. all it takes is a few more if/then/elseif/then statements into the program. the only thing it does is takes extra steps for both the bot and the legit person to take. we already complained about having too many steps in the crafting process and adding more i dun see as a viable option.

i could be wrong and they added things and made it a longer process, but gave larger rewards and work out fine. i just wouldn't want to support an idea like that unless i had more info as we don't need it becoming more tedious.

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Originally Posted by Arch_Blegan

I took it as a hyperbole, all the wise-guys out there took it literally. Bots ruin the game and if you've ever played an online FPS you know first hand how infuriating it is when someone uses a bot.

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heck yeah, aim bots and wall bots ruin fps games for sure. the problem is those games are different from these in the fact it is a direct competition game. aim bots do directly affect your gameplay experience.

i believe all bots should be banned, but i just don't see it happening in the near future. i just hope se has been making a list of those that have been botting and takes a hammer and hits them all with it when they see the time is right.

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Originally Posted by Seikninkuru

I'm sure he's right. Crafting is too boring to do legit. Well unless you have downe syndrome or something.

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You are an idiot!

As a programmer... okay, you got me.. I dont know like C, but I know web development languages.. As a web developer, I think I have a pretty good understanding of how code works, etc. Anyway, Bots can be super smart. You can add hundreds of If, elseif, else statements, and make things work. The only way to stop a bot is to create random things that could happen.

Say.. since you're closer to the water, you may get bit by a bug, and it can do 1dmg, and also stop you from your craft/fishing. Say there is a 1% chance that may happen in an hour.

Say a bird could crap on your head, and make you shocked and disgusted. This would stop you your gathering/crafting for a moment. This could have a 1% chance happening if your outside.

Say.. a mob might come up and attack you.

Say your pole breaks from a bit fish. 2% chance of happening if it's a big fish.

All these little things that have a small chance of happening, they are what will throw a bot off.


I'll add one more thing. If devs could do little things to change the game each time you craft.. say your inventory scrambles, or your menu for crafting moves to the right a little. Just super small things that humans won't care about, but bots gets lost because they can't adjust.

OR a good ol' anti bot task force :)

I'd love a kick emote. Say you have the opportunity to use a /kick once every 3 hours. This emote allows you to cancel someone's crafting/fishing, and perhaps they fall over and their inventory gets scrambled, and something happens to messes up the bot. I'm willing to bed there are a lot of bored people who would go 'bot hunting'. searching out botters hiding in remote places to /kick. gosh knows they wouldn't have the ghall to bot in uldah anymore!

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Originally Posted by alexi14

As a programmer... okay, you got me.. I dont know like C, but I know web development languages.. As a web developer, I think I have a pretty good understanding of how code works, etc. Anyway, Bots can be super smart. You can add hundreds of If, elseif, else statements, and make things work. The only way to stop a bot is to create random things that could happen.

Say.. since you're closer to the water, you may get bit by a bug, and it can do 1dmg, and also stop you from your craft/fishing. Say there is a 1% chance that may happen in an hour.

Say a bird could crap on your head, and make you shocked and disgusted. This would stop you your gathering/crafting for a moment. This could have a 1% chance happening if your outside.

Say.. a mob might come up and attack you.

Say your pole breaks from a bit fish. 2% chance of happening if it's a big fish.

All these little things that have a small chance of happening, they are what will throw a bot off.


I'll add one more thing. If devs could do little things to change the game each time you craft.. say your inventory scrambles, or your menu for crafting moves to the right a little. Just super small things that humans won't care about, but bots gets lost because they can't adjust.

OR a good ol' anti bot task force :)

I'd love a kick emote. Say you have the opportunity to use a /kick once every 3 hours. This emote allows you to cancel someone's crafting/fishing, and perhaps they fall over and their inventory gets scrambled, and something happens to messes up the bot. I'm willing to bed there are a lot of bored people who would go 'bot hunting'. searching out botters hiding in remote places to /kick. gosh knows they wouldn't have the ghall to bot in uldah anymore!

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I'm sorry but these are terrible ideas that would only exist to aggravate crafters and gatherers. Would you enjoy it if someone could /kick you and steal your mob? That's the same thing you're proposing for crafting/gathering, a way to grief other players. Also scrambling your inventory wouldn't matter because of recipes, but even so this would just annoy people.

lol I may aswell be a bot, the amount of times I've fallen asleep still tapping the enter key

I don't see how you could. It's painstakingly boring and frustrating lol. :x

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Originally Posted by alexi14

As a programmer... okay, you got me.. I dont know like C, but I know web development languages.. As a web developer, I think I have a pretty good understanding of how code works, etc. Anyway, Bots can be super smart. You can add hundreds of If, elseif, else statements, and make things work. The only way to stop a bot is to create random things that could happen.

Say.. since you're closer to the water, you may get bit by a bug, and it can do 1dmg, and also stop you from your craft/fishing. Say there is a 1% chance that may happen in an hour.

Say a bird could crap on your head, and make you shocked and disgusted. This would stop you your gathering/crafting for a moment. This could have a 1% chance happening if your outside.

Say.. a mob might come up and attack you.

Say your pole breaks from a bit fish. 2% chance of happening if it's a big fish.

All these little things that have a small chance of happening, they are what will throw a bot off.


I'll add one more thing. If devs could do little things to change the game each time you craft.. say your inventory scrambles, or your menu for crafting moves to the right a little. Just super small things that humans won't care about, but bots gets lost because they can't adjust.

OR a good ol' anti bot task force :)

I'd love a kick emote. Say you have the opportunity to use a /kick once every 3 hours. This emote allows you to cancel someone's crafting/fishing, and perhaps they fall over and their inventory gets scrambled, and something happens to messes up the bot. I'm willing to bed there are a lot of bored people who would go 'bot hunting'. searching out botters hiding in remote places to /kick. gosh knows they wouldn't have the ghall to bot in uldah anymore!

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and with each of those random things if they add a bug that can bite you that is one simple open of the source code and adding one more elseif/then and then recompiling the program and updating the subscribers. this is once again exactly the meaning of things that would annoy the legit players and not stop a bot.

if it is easy to work around for them then you did nothing to prevent it, but made a tedious and boring experience more annoying.

btw, no the languages are nowhere similar.

the once every 3 hour kick for players is a horrible idea as it will give a person a way to grief someone just to do it.

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Originally Posted by Athaya

You are an idiot!

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2..mmmh who is the idiot?

Probably a person that isn't able to write different thing...congratulation XD

Well, the thing is, if you add a 2% chance rate to smoething like a bug bite, it's so rare that people who turn a bot on, and go to sleep aren't going to really know if their bot can respond appropriately to the bug. It wouldn't be common enough to do excellent testing. Bots are usually pretty buggy regardless. Also, the kick feature could do something like.. not waste the materials you were using. It is a way to grief someone, but it is a minor inconvienance for someone who's there. They have to spend another 30 seconds doing 1 synth IF they are kicked. I'm confident people would save their kicks for would-be botters :)

P.s. I know I'm not super smart, but try not to flame me too much lol. I'm trying to make solutions instead of just complain :)

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Originally Posted by alexi14

Well, the thing is, if you add a 2% chance rate to smoething like a bug bite, it's so rare that people who turn a bot on, and go to sleep aren't going to really know if their bot can respond appropriately to the bug. It wouldn't be common enough to do excellent testing. Bots are usually pretty buggy regardless. Also, the kick feature could do something like.. not waste the materials you were using. It is a way to grief someone, but it is a minor inconvienance for someone who's there. They have to spend another 30 seconds doing 1 synth IF they are kicked. I'm confident people would save their kicks for would-be botters :)

P.s. I know I'm not super smart, but try not to flame me too much lol. I'm trying to make solutions instead of just complain :)

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I understand you're trying to make solutions, but your solutions don't really improve anything. You're confident that people would save kicks for botters? What makes you so confident?

Rooting out bots should be the job of the task force - you're basically advocating vigilante justice, with the end result being that someone legitimately crafting or gathering would get their instance interrupted because you decided they were a bot.

" It is a way to grief someone, but it is a minor inconvienance for someone who's there. They have to spend another 30 seconds doing 1 synth IF they are kicked."

And if they're kicked multiple times by multiple people?

I watch anime while i craft.

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Originally Posted by DoubleEcho

I understand you're trying to make solutions, but your solutions don't really improve anything. You're confident that people would save kicks for botters? What makes you so confident?

Rooting out bots should be the job of the task force - you're basically advocating vigilante justice, with the end result being that someone legitimately crafting or gathering would get their instance interrupted because you decided they were a bot.

" It is a way to grief someone, but it is a minor inconvienance for someone who's there. They have to spend another 30 seconds doing 1 synth IF they are kicked."

And if they're kicked multiple times by multiple people?

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I know I would be pissed if someone kicked me while crafting something like champions lance and i had really high quality going on it

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Originally Posted by Krausus

I know I would be pissed if someone kicked me while crafting something like champions lance and i had really high quality going on it

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Exactly - sometimes you just get really luck with some bold synths and end up with extra dura to do Touch Ups. If I had a good synth going and someone screwed it up with a /kick, and I re-did it and failed, you better believe I'd be upset.

The big issue I have is that the suggestions alexi14 proposed don't add anything positive to the game, they just cause more problems.

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Originally Posted by DoubleEcho

Exactly - sometimes you just get really luck with some bold synths and end up with extra dura to do Touch Ups. If I had a good synth going and someone screwed it up with a /kick, and I re-did it and failed, you better believe I'd be upset.

The big issue I have is that the suggestions alexi14 proposed don't add anything positive to the game, they just cause more problems.

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yeah cuz who would use it to actualy annoy bots...

everyone would use it just to mess with crafters in general

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Originally Posted by alexi14

Well, the thing is, if you add a 2% chance rate to smoething like a bug bite, it's so rare that people who turn a bot on, and go to sleep aren't going to really know if their bot can respond appropriately to the bug. It wouldn't be common enough to do excellent testing. Bots are usually pretty buggy regardless. Also, the kick feature could do something like.. not waste the materials you were using. It is a way to grief someone, but it is a minor inconvienance for someone who's there. They have to spend another 30 seconds doing 1 synth IF they are kicked. I'm confident people would save their kicks for would-be botters :)

P.s. I know I'm not super smart, but try not to flame me too much lol. I'm trying to make solutions instead of just complain :)

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no you have already seen some of the ls drama in the forums. what would it take for one ls that doesn't like another to walk up and force fail someone when they are making a bardiche or lance or robe? that's what would happen. a minor inconvenience is not forcing someone to lose millions of gil worth of materials due to a force fail. remember when you fail a synth you lose all of the materials.

ok now look at the other side. say you decide to keep this from happening you say on a force kick fail they get to keep materials. omg, i am failing this bardiche quick kick me so i can retry it.

your suggestion cause either griefing or exploiting of the system either way. we already have a ls on my server that enjoys dragging hogs on top of another ls in mor dhona just to mpk them. if they do that what would they do if they found out someone was synthing up a high level piece of gear?

Instead of giving all legit crafters the shaft and making the crafting bot unfriendly, How about making crafting Player friendly?

people will bot regardless what you do to prevent them but some people might just be botting because they dislike how mind numbing the crafting can be. Sure its no excuse but still perhaps some if not most of the botters would cease their botting if the crafting was slightly more engaging and fun

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Originally Posted by Skeloton

Instead of giving all legit crafters the shaft and making the crafting bot unfriendly, How about making crafting Player friendly?

people will bot regardless what you do to prevent them but some people might just be botting because they dislike how mind numbing the crafting can be. Sure its no excuse but still perhaps some if not most of the botters would cease their botting if the crafting was slightly more engaging and fun

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people dont bot something because its hard or boring
they bot it cuz they like to cheat and wanna get ahead without actualy doing the work

honest people dont just come up and say "oh my god this is SO boring" i think ill cheat instead of doing it correctly
no the legit people just DONT do it

cheaters will cheat