Tank and heal shortage

Personal View: I am a tank, I am a Healer. I have even done summoner. I can log in and get a 4/8 man team to run about anything I am interested in as a tank or healer easy peasey, and I will NEVER willingly go near Duty Finder. It is not about the fact that in this game tanking mechicanics are fairly simple, nor is it the fact that SE seems to think that my position does not really need to be updated all that often in a fight. The rude, foul mouth, ego centric players are what keeps me from going near DF.

I have seen tanks being accused of having a "god complex," and there ARE some that are total twits, same goes for every class. It is the players hiding behind a screen name acting like an 8 year old with tourettes that drives me from Queuing up in a DF.

The first thing I do an any mmo dating back to UO is find a guild/fleet/clan/corp/company of mature players. Once I find them why would I willingly subject myself to the above? The reality is that good FC do not have a tank or healer shortage, and for good reason.

End of my personal opinion.
Have a great Monday!

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

You can quit the condescending attitude anytime you like.

Since you say you queue everyday, tell me which Extreme Primal is more involved as a DPS than a tank? Where is the responsibility beyond a DPS check in Twintania?

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Every EX primal is far more involved as DPS than as a tank for a greater fraction of the fight with the notable exception of Garuda (if the tanks position everything including the plumes well it's very easy for the DPS). I've done them all on both (I've tanked everything in the game except t5 and, for some strange reason, t2). There is one moment where tanking is really hard in Titan EX where the adds landslide right after Titan does landslide and...oh wait...Tempered Will/Hallowed Ground/Holmgang... The only other real difficulty is knowing not to swap tanks right before a landslide and knowing that there are adds to pick up...

The difference is if one of two tanks dies at the wrong time, it's a guaranteed wipe. If one of the two tanks falls off ever, it's a guaranteed wipe. If one DPS does either of these things it's possibly (probably) still possible to win.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

...oh wait...Tempered Will/Hallowed Ground/Holmgang...

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Did they fix Holmgang yet? Last I saw, Holmgang does not prevent knockbacks and was to be fixed at some non-specific date in the future.

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Originally Posted by Dedayius

Did they fix Holmgang yet? Last I saw, Holmgang does not prevent knockbacks and was to be fixed at some non-specific date in the future.

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Hmm, I haven't done them on WAR, clearly, but I thought that was fixed recently? If not, then yes, I suppose that's moment is relatively high stress for a WAR.

Edit: Yes, that was fixed in 2.15 according to the patch notes so every tank has a knockback immunity move.

I used to tank in this game, but got sick of it because of bad parties. Healers that can't do their job correctly(seriously if the tank dies due to a party wipe move, ok, but if the tank dies because the healer is more focused on their DPS then something is wrong), DDs running out ahead of the tank and grabbing aggro, people trying to tell you how to tank when they've never seen you before nor has the dungeon/boss fight even begun, etc. It became such an annoyance, I quit tanking, I love tanking I do.. If I do tank, I only tank for friends because no one else deserves it. Until people can stop being idiots, I don't expect there to be an increase in the number of tanks at all.

The lockouts are the biggest culprit, coupled with the horrible RNG on CT and Coil.

It's enough of a pain as it is getting your main job to i90, god help you if you want to decently gear your other jobs as well. I don't think I've seen a single piece of tanking gear out of Coil yet (only being doing it for about a month now but still...)

I have every job @ 50 and like playing different roles from time to time because I get bored playing just 1, but realistically I just can't gear everything. It doesn't help that the majority of PF on Excalibur are elitists who only want people with i85 or higher and generally won't accept MNK or DRG... really starting to hate the game lately. It's not even that XI was more open (and it was mostly) but just the community, at least on my server disgusts me.

@ Demetirus
People level up so fast - they don't have enough time to learn the dungeon. Recently i had a 'qarn city' run where i80 pld was 1-shot by bees, and then he killed that stone head not on a block. Then he probably got mad (pretty much soloed that head) and stopped flashing aggro, i stopped healing... But we finished it. I didn't say a word, neither any other people did, but i think everyone were upset.
It was a bad experience, but noone said a word, i think it would be much worse if people started to say what they thought. I think that pld was good, just forgot how to run this dungeon (he had mostly CT armor).
What was really pulling us down is the summoner (1st time + undergeared), being that pld friend - she didn't know tactics either, but that is what duty finder for - to help new people to pass something.

About healer not healing: i usually wait for tanker hp to go down to 40% hp before i start healing, that way i know he has some aggro on, so i wont pull some mobs on me. If mobs go after healer - they will interrupt almost every cast, is a guaranteed party wipe, so if tanker keeps pulling more than he can hold - i just stop healing... Dps can take a mob from healer, but it will drain healer mana fast, so still will be a wipe.
About healer dps: is always a bad idea, but if team keeps wiping because dps are too weak - imo worth a try, but not from start. 1000 char.

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Originally Posted by lxSch

snip

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O.o

I disagree with pretty much everything you just said. I dps a lot on my scholar in everything except the hardest "endgame" content. I.E. In every dungeon and every fight that is not "extreme" mode or Titan. The slow from Shadow Flare actually saves on heals for a large enough a group of mobs.

Waiting to heal until your tank is down to 50% or less makes sense only if you're using that time to DPS. Both Flash and Overpower are more than strong enough to keep mobs off the healer, especially a scholar.

I see more Summoner healers in CT then I do White Mage's.

We are a dying breed, blarg.
http://thor.he.net/~gludlow/rip.gif

@ eagledorf

Just asking, how do you deal with adds when tanker does not flash and overpower at first?
Also, how do you keep to dps when dpsers are tanking half of adds and eat every red zone damage? I usually end up with only enough mana to physick the tanker and 2 dead dps (mad at me for not reviving, often abandoning duty).
If i know other 3 players are good - i will shadowflare and bane at every pull, but so far i never had such team in duty finder. I mostly spam wonder's palace for phyl and myth tomes, usually my #1 priority is to save dps from tonberry 2-shot, 2nd priority is to keep the tanker alive (who pulled 2-3 groups for the sake of fast run).
Forgot to say, Selene tanks well under 'sustain', a good perk of not healing from start.

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Originally Posted by Ramira

I see more Summoner healers in CT then I do White Mage's.

We are a dying breed, blarg.
http://thor.he.net/~gludlow/rip.gif

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Galvanize and Stoneskin really hurt White Mages in terms of defenses. Though to be fair, healing output on WHT compared to SCH is just so much better in bursts. I always have to focus Aldoquiem on Tank to catch up with the healing, then drop either Shadow Flare if I have time or Eye for an Eye to lower the damage coming in. I've gotten yelled at so many times for using Sacred Soil to try and lessen damage....yet I saw it drop at least 14 times in CT last night.

Why must people have different preferences TTwTT


I main Summoner. Its incredibly easy to play once you know your DoT rotations and learn to keep them active without burning up your MP too much. I side Scholar for personal use and smaller group use and usually I have a hard time healing. I was just barely able to keep a tank alive my first run through Wanderer's Palace. Managed to pull through without a single wipe on my first run which made me happy. Depending on dungeon I don't feel as if I have enough healing output so Healer is definitely harder for me to play, but I enjoy it. Tank on the other hand for me is inbetween healer and DPS. I see the roles as:

Tank pulls and is the center focus for the enemy. He has a lot of priority, but even if he fails at it, it should be ok cause a quick instant raise should get him back on his feet.

DPS are the expendable limbs to the group. Its ok when one falls as there is another to pull slack until the other is brought back up. If both go down, then a bit of priority needs to be put on raising at least one of the two.

Healer is the soul of the team. If the healer dies, its a wipe in a 4 person group. If you don't have a Summoner or a Phoenix Down and not way to raise the healer, you guys are dead.


A good team will cover adequately when another falls. Tank falls, the thicker DPS tries to gain hate off healer to revive the Tank. DPS falls, healer should try to get the DPS back up less both die and get screwed. The DPS should always be defending the healer. That should be a priority. Kill the things targeting the healer as fast as possible.

As for toxic members, I've seen extreme hate from everyone. Wiped at least 8 times in Amdapor Keep. Had 1 new player who was the healer. Didn't know about the ball that kills you if you drop it in the wrong place. He had the ball drop on him 6 times. The other two times the ball dropped on the Bard who was mid combo attacking the boss. First tank (Wipes 1-5) was patient but didn't explain anything until later (after wipe 2). Second tank was very aggressive. He really didn't like the healer and the chat box was very colorful with his ???????'d sentences because of the profanity filter. The Bard and Tank both leave while we have less than 15 mins left and another group comes in. I said we wiped 8 times already and one leaves the other calls in an FC member.

We beat the boss with like 2 mins left, all my gear was Condition 0 so my damage was like nil, thank god the other DPS was a dragoon. Healer made mistakes, but even I think the way the tank complained was a bit overboard. It was his first time...even if he did have ilvl 60 gear. Course, guess that just means Gear isn't everything in this game.

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Originally Posted by Moirear

IME way too many tanks act like it's so hard to do, because they want the praise and adulation. It's far easier than DPSing or healing, IMHO.

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True that once the tanks established aggro, there's not really alot to do other than pop cooldowns at the right moment. HOWEVER, just that one SINGLE 'pop cooldown at the right moment' = wipe or ex.primal weapon.

I played as a PLD, WHM, SCH, DRG. If new contents' out, gotta say out of the 4 jobs, I would most certainly queue as a DRG. Why? because you ARE allowed to screw up. So what if your DOTs are not 24/7 on the boss, so what if you lag spiked and died. NONE of these will cause an INSTANT wipe.

Therefore, conclusion. DPS screw up, might be a wipe but not instant where ppl give up hope on the fight. HEALER/TANK screw up, almost certain in 90% of the fight, it's instant wipe... go figure which job has more responsibility in terms of time efficiency and players' patience.

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Originally Posted by lxSch

@ eagledorf

Just asking, how do you deal with adds when tanker does not flash and overpower at first?.

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1) Run up to the tank within Flash range or in their Overpower cone
2) Keep healing

Lustrate, Swiftcast, Surecast, and any fairy actions will all go through even if you're being hit. Frankly most casts will go through unless you're being hit on by the entire swarm of mobs.

If the tank is too stupid to pull them back off of you, then yes, you may wipe. Honestly, I have failed a dungeon in DF only once in my memory so I doubt the average player is as bad as you say.

And yes, the fairy makes a good tank.

1-50 tanking is a joke.

However, most people saying that tanking is easy because of that, obviously haven't done anything past the basic dungeons.

Come trials/coil when the tank actually has to do stuff other than hold aggro, that's when the problem comes in.

Stop projecting the false image that tanking is "easy". It's only easy until you hit trials and coil. If you only bother doing roulettes and common dungeons on your tank class, I'm sorry, you haven't experienced true tanking yet.

If you've actually tanked all the EMs along with Coil all the way to Turn 5, then say that tanking is easier than DPS for all of the above cases, then I say good for you, you are a natural tank player.

But for the average player in the current playerbase, DPS will never, and i repeat, NEVER be harder to play than a tank.

Lustrate x 6 + swiftcast->galvanize works well, but they are the last resort skills, i try to save them.
I noticed some tankers that do speed runs sometimes range pick one mob (social), related mob group gets after the tanker, tanker runs for the 2nd group (not using flash), then for the 3rd, then he stops, uses flash/whatever else aoe. If i heal before that - i am dead, if i spammed 6x lustrate - tanker is dead from 3 groups (i am not running in overgeared teams from DF).
I did not say i fail dungeons - i meant it can cause an unreasonable wipe.

I think we have to agree to disagree now that all of the content has been figured out.

The easy way to think about it is, what fraction of the time do you actually wipe due to a certain role's failure to fulfill its tasks? I would say in the vast majority of encounters, it is Healers/DPS->Tanks, even in the endgame content, with the exception of Garuda EX and t4, where it is pretty unquestionably tanks. Of course in terms of who is most easily able to cause a wipe, it is Tanks/Healers->DPS, but that's a reflection of your level of responsibility, not difficulty.

Coil is basically the same as the dungeons until t4. There is the tank swapping in t2 and the split for t1, but nothing is actually difficult if you know what's happening. (If you don't know what's happening, it's hard on everybody. "IT'S ONESHOTTING EVERYTHING! Why? We killed the other snake! Maybe next time we can try letting them merge again?"). T4, if you're MT and know the fight, it's still pretty easy; if you're OT it's very involved. Kudos to people who are confident about doing that, because it intimidates the heck out of me.

Garuda is somewhat disorienting...Like T4 I think tanks do have the hardest job here.

@IxSch ah...I never do it that way myself (I always flash from group to group when I pull more than one), but yes, in that case you all have to wait for the tank to establish aggro on the entire group. They shouldn't be at risk of dying until they actually stop long enough for mobs to hit them more than a few times.

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Originally Posted by Ramira

I see more Summoner healers in CT then I do White Mage's.

We are a dying breed, blarg.
http://thor.he.net/~gludlow/rip.gif

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I only end up 'healing' on SMN in CT because the 6 healers actually in the instance for some strange reason aren't healing the tanks/players etc (even when people aren't being dumb and all spread over hill and dale). I don't run CT as my WHM (my main) mostly because I am trying to get better at SMN/like to be able to turn 'troll chat' off (alliance chat). When I DO heal though, I Also end up healing typically 4/6 tanks in the alliance...AND my party...solo. So basically, SMN's tend to be forced to heal/res in CT because the actual healers are NOT healing...they are AFK (lots of the time) or in CS...or Holy Spamming...or not healing the pots...or just plan old new to the dungeon and don't know what to do/who to watch.

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Originally Posted by Demetirus

TL;DR version: A few rotten apples make people not want to tank/heal. It's not the sole cause of the shortage, but something that can really go a long way in making people want to tank is to try and be friendly and understanding with folks, regardless of job or role in the party.

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Been leveling my tank.

I just leave dungeons if people want to be rude to me while I'm tanking(everything is insta pop as a tank so...). I'm sure the tank shortage isn't THAT bad. They'll probably only be waiting, at very max, 10 minutes for another anyway. Hopefully the next tank will move slower/faster, whatever they prefer.

Yesterday I got ninja lotted in CT after my 23th attempt to see the piece of gear I wanted when it was agreed that I would get it cause no one else supposedly wanted it, just look at the PF when its about CT, parties are full & just missing 2 tanks. It drop on KB & it take up to 40 mins average to get there. I did queue as a tank from the begining to help/quicken it.

Result? I'll get on the asshole side & spam for "in progress parties" until I get what I want then get out once I get it.

Your question might be "Why should other people pay for the bad attitude of one person?" My answer to you will be "Why should I have to pay the price of being a tank in so many situations where all I was doing was helping people that are too lazy to level up or play a tank class?"

The situation must look irrelevant to you? its 50-50, Tanks get bored in CT and too easily blamed for anything that goes wrong (again/usual) so yep. Its not like if only the assholes were getting everything they want to the cost of nice players. Oh wait...

I've been running CT as PLD lately to help out, but that's also taking a WHM out of the pool. I'm only one Elf!

My problem with the healing role is not enough of the stuff I like to do and too much of the stuff I don't want to do. That is to say, if I'm not healing the only thing I can use my mana for is DPS which, IMHO sucks ass. I'd much rather be buffing my team and enfeebling the mobs... unfortunately, there's really no enfeebling type class at the moment and if there were the possibility of it healing seems pretty slim. I do have SCH leveled, but I tend not to like it as much because of fairy micromanagement which is not something I have been enjoying. Don't get me wrong, I love the fairy, but I just don't like having to manage her and worry about everything else that I need to do.

ex titan is definitely easier to tank that dps

I would try to tank more if not for the fear of getting yelled at for being a lousy tank. :P I only have experience in healing and that's about it.

tbh i have a healer a tank and a dps all end game geared. my treatment from other players is always more dependent on my actual play then the class im on. maybe if people are getting yelled at a lot for being a bad tank, they really are a bad tank. lets stop trying to encourage everyone and their mother to go out and make a tank or healer. cuz lets face it, some people just arent cut out for it.

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Originally Posted by alhandra

tbh i have a healer a tank and a dps all end game geared. my treatment from other players is always more dependent on my actual play then the class im on. maybe if people are getting yelled at a lot for being a bad tank, they really are a bad tank. lets stop trying to encourage everyone and their mother to go out and make a tank or healer. cuz lets face it, some people just arent cut out for it.

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I don't think you understood the point of this thread. We are talking about all kind of player being bossy/pricky whenever they feel like it with the tank.

Starting a duty roulette as a tank & being unable to keep hate because you're a iLv55 tank with 3 iLv80+ who farm myths to reroll doesn't make you a bad tank, you're just here to try & increase your iLv like everyone else. The people with you have to accept it or leave but in no way should make you feel bad because you're under geared to do a speed run.


When you go in Garuda X and one of the BRD cannot hold it & pull because he's an impatient prick "which cause the party to wipe" you are not a bad tank because you did not get back aggro or saved the party, you're not there to fix the shit of someone else you're here to tank.

I think you're missing the point pretty much, as the people who post in here & which may be tank main (like me) can totaly take their own mistakes and try to improve. The real problem is the mentality some people have, tending to inconciously try to ruin the experience for one other, and generaly its the tank who's the victim.

Titan heart phase is one of the only time where the DPS have to wet their pants really, and some other stuff like Garuda X.

I play as MNK most of the time now, still I do everything to help the tanks in my own way, even if it mean to spend 25 more mins in WP cos the guy is wearing is AF & iLv48 accessories and to argue with the other DPS cos he want to speed run it.

Anyway, what with this "I do good so you must do wrong" mentality? I never understood that lol.