Dark Knight

Class: Swordsman

Jobs: Dark Knight, Samurai

/thread

Since DRK's couldnt hit the broadside of a behemoth in 11 it would be interesting if they turned them into a tank class in this game. Would at least make them more useful.

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Originally Posted by Akirakogami

DRK isn't going to be a class then. Theres very little room for more DPS in this game with the other possible new jobs.

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I concur, but perhaps they might release multiple classes at the same time.

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Originally Posted by HWF-7force

Class: Swordsman

Jobs: Dark Knight, Samurai

/thread

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Which nation?

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Originally Posted by Sedant

Since DRK's couldnt hit the broadside of a behemoth in 11

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Accuracy was never the problem. The problem stemmed more from the ridiculous delay on DRK weapons, meaning that if you were to parse a one-hand DPS like a dual wielding NIN vs a DRK, the NIN parsed bigger ACC over a set period of time, but if you were to parse them by number of swings made you'd see little to no difference in acc rating.

That's sort of why classes with long-delay/heavy weapons are usually designed around using more abilities, an element FFXI lacked and DRK suffered for it. Of course, once people figured out 5-6 hit builds for WS spam it sort of evened out (sort of why G-Axe and SAMs also geared the same way).

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Accuracy was never the problem. The problem stemmed more from the ridiculous delay on DRK weapons, meaning that if you were to parse a one-hand DPS like a dual wielding NIN vs a DRK, the NIN parsed bigger ACC over a set period of time, but if you were to parse them by number of swings made you'd see little to no difference in acc rating.

That's sort of why classes with long-delay/heavy weapons are usually designed around using more abilities, an element FFXI lacked and DRK suffered for it. Of course, once people figured out 5-6 hit builds for WS spam it sort of evened out (sort of why G-Axe and SAMs also geared the same way).

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^ This, DRK had the highest ACC in the game for a solid chunk of the games life. Once haste was exposed it not only had the highest ACC but the highest DPS which made it broken for many years.

Most of the DRK references in this thread are people that must have stopped playing somewhere in the 2005 range.

Almost certain that if they do put in DRK it will be a JoB not class and it will most likely be a lancer Job.

probably a Mrd /Lnc mix so itll have all the health drains back since SE split the between the two.

isn't dragoon here covered dark knight skills? yes they don't use great swords but they certainly fill that mele dps role with a slow weapon and their armor resembles that of dark knights , as well as their blood for blood skill which sounds like a dark knight skill. I think we need beaster master , blue mage, ninja , samura more but thats my opinuin

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Originally Posted by HWF-7force

Class: Swordsman

Jobs: Dark Knight, Samurai

/thread

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Currently 剣術士 (sword artist) is what Gladiator is called so I'm not sure on Swordsman. Samurai and Dark Knight using the same weapon is..questionable. Given the fact that broadswords or the like aren't handled in the same way as katanas.

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Originally Posted by starLivitation

isn't dragoon here covered dark knight skills? yes they don't use great swords but they certainly fill that mele dps role with a slow weapon and their armor resembles that of dark knights , as well as their blood for blood skill which sounds like a dark knight skill. I think we need beaster master , blue mage, ninja , samura more but thats my opinuin

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Dark Knight uses swords/spears more than greatswords though.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

Which nation?

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Obviously the nation would be Ishgard... or maybe Radz-at-Han

sorry gonna be honest i just see all new jobs just being bland dds. this game /community cant handle new exciting things.

Question is what would fit as a tank though.
People have mentioned ninja only because it ended up tank in Xi. It was not intended that way nor does it make sens lore wise.
Red mage wad mentioned. Rdm is a jack of all trade type so might be possible but in return its offence would be nerfed drastically which might puss off a great deal of fanboys.
Dark knight wears heavy armor but preys on its own life for increased damage. Souleater is one of its core abilities, a drk is supposed to e very risk reward class bit suitable to tanking either.
I can't really think of anything suitable atm other than ruining some more beautiful jobs like they did with summoner.

Samurai would be best option, imo.
Or maybe rune fender. (Magic tank)
Still need an evasion tank. Still could use bubble/REAL self heal tank.

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Originally Posted by Warrlordd

Samurai would be best option, imo.
Or maybe rune fender. (Magic tank)
Still need an evasion tank. Still could use bubble/REAL self heal tank.

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Still could use a Dark Knight

DRK should be a heavy armor DPS similar to DRG. Also it will likely be a spin off of some other new class since the weapon it is most associated with is a scythe.

yeah. while i agree that a DRK paradigm could be used for tank i feel it would be far more fun and interesting as a DPS. still legitimate idea though.

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Originally Posted by Warrlordd

yeah. while i agree that a DRK paradigm could be used for tank i feel it would be far more fun and interesting as a DPS. still legitimate idea though.

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This is correct. Like the ninja, the DRK was never meant to be a tank. Its designed roll is to be a damage dealer. Yes in this game there is some strong similarities between a DRG and DRK, however if you have played a DRK in XI, you know what its about and whats unique. A dragoon does lancing damage with hug jumps (yes a simplification). A dark knight uses dark arcane powers to enable him to pull tricks off running the gambit and deal devastating blows to the enemy due to his willingness to do damage and risk himself.As to RDM I very much believe we will see it as a tank. A RDM can do everything, jack of all trades, and the only class type that can do everything is a tank. Its just that simple. As to this and DRK as a tank; no, DRK don't really wear heavy armor as a common aspect of the class. Please read the link in the OP. While this can occur, it is not apparently a common-place aspect of the class. If the wiki is wrong, please give evidence/links.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

This is correct. Like the ninja, the DRK was never meant to be a tank. Its designed roll is to be a damage dealer. Yes in this game there is some strong similarities between a DRG and DRK, however if you have played a DRK in XI, you know what its about and whats unique. A dragoon does lancing damage with hug jumps A dark knight uses dark arcane powers to enable him to pull tricks off running the gambit and deal devastating blows to the enemy due to his willingness to do damage and risk himself.As to RDM I very much believe we will see it as a tank. A RDM can do everything, jack of all trades, and the only class type that can do everything is a tank. Its just that simple. As to this and DRK as a tank; no, DRK don't really wear heavy armor as a common aspect of the class. Please read the link in the OP. While this can occur, it is not apparently a common-place aspect of the class. If the wiki is wrong, please give evidence/links.

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Only in 11 was the first MMO to have it as a DPS , Wow, Evererquest, and Age of Conan, Dark or or the Variation was a Tank opposite Pld instead of healing magic it absorbed life to keep self topped of. And the funny part is, you people all want dd lets not for get that SE copied Warlock from wow and called it summoner, and copied wow itself and called it AAR. So most likely SE is gonna just copy DK drom wow and make it a tank, might as well just accept it.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

Only in 11 was the first MMO to have it as a DPS , Wow, Evererquest, and Age of Conan, Dark or or the Variation was a Tank opposite Pld instead of healing magic it absorbed life to keep self topped of. And the funny part is, you people all want dd lets not for get that SE copied Warlock from wow and called it summoner, and copied wow itself and called it AAR. So most likely SE is gonna just copy DK drom wow and make it a tank, might as well just accept it.

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Then why are you here? Go play wow, it is still much more popular. Yeah they copied the summoner, and I am not too happy about that. However this thread is about the dark knight. So please go complain about it else where and I will be more than glad to join you by saying the summoner needs to be more focused on pets than DOT. However here your sounding like a troll.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

This is correct. Like the ninja, the DRK was never meant to be a tank. Its designed roll is to be a damage dealer. Yes in this game there is some strong similarities between a DRG and DRK, however if you have played a DRK in XI, you know what its about and whats unique. A dragoon does lancing damage with hug jumps (yes a simplification). A dark knight uses dark arcane powers to enable him to pull tricks off running the gambit and deal devastating blows to the enemy due to his willingness to do damage and risk himself.As to RDM I very much believe we will see it as a tank. A RDM can do everything, jack of all trades, and the only class type that can do everything is a tank. Its just that simple. As to this and DRK as a tank; no, DRK don't really wear heavy armor as a common aspect of the class. Please read the link in the OP. While this can occur, it is not apparently a common-place aspect of the class. If the wiki is wrong, please give evidence/links.

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Except there was no such thing as a tank prior to XI. It was fast DPS, slow DPS, full healer, semi-healer.

Red Mage is even weaker in armour setting than Dark Knight ever has been.

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Red Mages typically cast both Black and White Magic and can also wield swords and equip armor that normal Black and White Mages cannot. They are, in essence, among the more versatile characters of the series. However, their versatility comes at a price: their stats are usually low, and they cannot cast higher level spells or use stronger equipment. They can learn many spells, but not the strongest, and equip some heavy armor, but not all of it.

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Now since there is a large emotional attachment to Dark Knight from the FFXI players and it seems that they don't like to look at things from a logical stand point, let me explain a few things.

Since, prior to FFXI, there was no such thing as a tank we must look at all previous classes as potential tanks, dps or healers.

Tank - Generally the more beefy DPS from previous games as it's more logical that ones who were known to take more hits, would be ones who would..well, take more hits.
DPS - Every class with the exception of full support was a DPS in some way, even white mage had DPS.
Healer - Pretty much any class who had a low amount of offensive ability will fall into this category

So now that we have that out of the way, shall we look at what classes would fall more into what role?
Note: Should try to make it so that it has some kind of relevance to *why* this class should be a tank

Tank
- Samurai
- Dark Knight
- Viking
- Beserker
- Beastmaster
- Mystic Knight

Healer
- Time Mage
- Dancer
- Calculator
- Machinist (?)

Limbo classes
- Green Mage
- Devout
- Mime
- Memorist

DPS
- every other FF class you can think of

Post limit

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I get you might be objectionable to the concept of a RDM as a tank, but you have yet to say what role they should be?

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DPS
- every other FF class you can think of

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Mystic Knight, which would be a tank version of Red Mage, would be the tank and Red Mage would, naturally, be a DPS. Why? They have been known to wear some heavy armour but more in line with medium armour. So it's far more likely that it'd be a DPS rather than a tank. However, I'm sure SE can throw a curve ball like they did in FFXI (lolninjatank).

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Yes this is true, but the question comes in on which best fits which class that exsisted previously. I understand the need for this to make sense, and the need for more tanks in the game as I have started leveling non-tank classes. However you fail to acknowledge my OP support, while be if flimsy, and bring up to any evidence to the contrary. With such flimsy support from a wiki it should be easy to knock over it, as all it is, is another perspective on the class not hampered by the bias of a single player.

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Let's look at Warrior (fighter), Berserker, and Viking. What's common among these classes? High HP, ability to equip heavy armour (and some can use shields). That isn't any different from Dark Knight's previous incarnations, except for FFXI.

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On top of this Leon, often considered the first DRK, used two handed weapons primarily, such as the axe and lance (Trolls just look at his proficiencies and don't bother), and his most powerful weapon was a lance. It is a class that focuses on damage above all use. It can not be any simpler than that and thus if they follow previous incarnations.

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As I said previously, ever class was meant to deal damage and only damage. Only a few had any "tank" like capabilities namely Paladin/Knight with cover and, after the remake, Viking with provoke. Now I've taken a little look at Dark Knight on the wiki and found this neat skill from Final Fantasy Dimensions (a mobile phone game)

Dark Knight:
Draw Attacks - Draws enemy attacks onto oneself.

Dark Knight Dimensions

So it's not entirely impossible that Dark Knight could be a tank. As for Yoshida's Gladiator => Dark Knight idea, it was an example to show it's possible to turn tanks into DPS if they really needed to. I don't expect this to happen unless they follow the Sword/Shield construct that gladiator has and even then, Kitru has somewhere, stated that Gladiator has too many tanking CDs that would be useless or broken towards a DPS class.

I only dislike the idea of Dark Knight being a DPS solely on the basis that we can't have too many DPS and too little tank classes.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Except there was no such thing as a tank prior to XI. It was fast DPS, slow DPS, full healer, semi-healer.

Red Mage is even weaker in armour setting than Dark Knight ever has been.

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I get you might be objectionable to the concept of a RDM as a tank, but you have yet to say what role they should be? They can take hits, deal, damage, and heal not only themselves but others. Sounds like an interesting new magic based tank. Its key class ability would be to make the protect spell on the personal level very beef-y making taking damage much more possible with a good deal of magic based mitigation. Just a thought, but I really don't care what the RDM does, I just hope its good, and more fitting than the Summoner and Archer class has turned out.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Now since there is a large emotional attachment to Dark Knight from the FFXI players and it seems that they don't like to look at things from a logical stand point, let me explain a few things.

Since, prior to FFXI, there was no such thing as a tank we must look at all previous classes as potential tanks, dps or healers.(List)

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Yes this is true, but the question comes in on which best fits which class that exsisted previously. I understand the need for this to make sense, and the need for more tanks in the game as I have started leveling non-tank classes. However you fail to acknowledge my OP support, while be if flimsy, and bring up to any evidence to the contrary. With such flimsy support from a wiki it should be easy to knock over it, as all it is, is another perspective on the class not hampered by the bias of a single player.

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Originally Posted by Final Fantasy Wiki

The Dark Knight is characterized by wearing tight, sometimes enclosed black armor and wielding a sword steeped in wicked powers. Their physical stats, with exception of Defense, are usually high, but their other stats depend on the game they appear in. The typical Dark Knight ability is Souleater, also known as Darkness, which allows them to sacrifice their HP to perform stronger attacks.

However, Souleater is not exclusive to the Dark Knight class. Dark Knights may also have abilities based on Blood Equipment that allows them to absorb HP and MP from enemies. The Dark Knight is opposed by the Paladin, holy knights who protect allies and wield sacred powers. Unlike many classes, Dark Knights bear a signature weapon, the Deathbringer, which has a chance to kill certain enemies in a single blow.

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On top of this Leon, often considered the first DRK, used two handed weapons primarily, such as the axe and lance (Trolls just look at his proficiencies and don't bother), and his most powerful weapon was a lance. It is a class that focuses on damage above all use. It can not be any simpler than that and thus if they follow previous incarnations.

One could construde that here: http://www.secrets-eorzea.com/en/news/news-of-the-day/220-interview-of-naoki-yoshida-by-secrets-of-eorzea
even the questioner as well as the response to the question by Naoki Yoshida acknowledges that this concept of a dark knight as a tank would be odd.

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Will you make the second jobs very different from their class or first job? For example, the Dark Knight is a very aggressive job and since you seem to want it to become the second Gladiator job (This has never been confirmed but since Yoshi-P always uses it as an example, you never know... ), don't you think Gladiator's abilities are in contradiction with his style?

• Naoki Yoshida (NY):

I see what you mean. We created the system, but we do not necessarily need to follow it all the time. For example, let’s say that the Dark Knight is the second Gladiator job (attention, it is still not a confirmation), when you get its job stone at level 30, all acquired Gladiator skills will certainly be modified to better fit the image of the Dark Knight.

It was just to give an example to explain that we are not going to destroy how players consider different classes / jobs. It could be an interesting way to introduce future classes / jobs. We will consider your concerns on this issue, rest assured.
This should make things more interesting, don't you think?

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So again, your opinion of a DRK seems to be the minority as Mr. Yoshida clearly states no disagreement as to the DRK as being a damage dealer, or remark that it could be anything else.

Updating the OP. Will get back to finishing it later. Maybe late tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

Honestly I am sorry, but I think your fooling yourself. It will be hard pressed to see DRK little alone any non-tank come from that class.

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Exactly how are they fooling themselves? SMN and SCH fill their different roles quite nicely.

Give DRK a 2h weapon, greatsword, take GLD's skills, take away the ability to use shield-based ones, then add 5 dps abilities...let's say from similarities to ffxi you add souleater (dps+ for hp consumed), last resort (speed boost + defense loss), an absorb spell, dread spikes, and blood weapon (in ffxi basically bloodbath, could be done differently).

...and you have a dps with a couple tanking abilities they're not likely to use but hey, maybe with a dread spikes move you'd want them tanking short-term. They are the masochist of ff jobs. And just tweak the #s for balance and it'd work out just fine. And even the "blade" skills fit perfectly with the idea of using a greatsword

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Exactly how are they fooling themselves? SMN and SCH fill their different roles quite nicely.

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I concluded that it is possible, but I don't think the programers would do it. There would be too much needed to change, and it would be hard to make it work well; too many tank abilities. Yes some could be modded, but some just flat out do nothing but help the class get enmity, use shields, and get healed easier.
Flash, Convalescence, Shield Lob, Shield Bash, Provoke, Shield Swipe, Awareness, Sentinel, and Bulwark are all tank class abilites. Yes you could rework them all, but you would be better of making a new class at that point.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

So again, your opinion of a DRK seems to be the minority as Mr. Yoshida clearly states no disagreement as to the DRK as being a damage dealer, or remark that it could be anything else.

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The only thing is that 'heavy' damage dealer don't exist in MMOs in the same sense as they would in a single player game, sadly. (Steiner, for example, could be considered either a tank or dps, while being neither, really.) I won't say that Dark Knights have often been tanks, but they have traditionally been 'tanky'. But at the same time, the only armor likely for them to use as 'tanky' dps is that of Dragoons, who drop like flies.

I don't think Dark Knight will see any interesting use, innovative or traditional, until ARR's holy trinity of roles is a bit more flexible, and likely its armory system as well, neither of which seem likely.
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To Alistaire:
I certainly can't see much of the Dark Knight in a mere set of slash-stab and slash-slash-many_slashes combos. Having "Blade" in the ability name alone does not make for a fitting ability scheme.
You could at least have support functions through abilities than mimic mana, TP, or stat-burning (via Riot and Halon), and could reverse almost any defensive ability by applying the opposite of their effects to the enemy as personal debuffs (affecting only you), but then you just have an incredibly nukey class in ways unrelated to blood or life-steal mechanics, similar to pre-nerf Bard due to its amount of CDs. More useful would probably be a single 80-second or so CD active ability that reverses them with its own cooldown and maximum effects, such that it ought to be rotated for ideal effects (Rampart (Ravage)+Awareness (Piercing Eyes) -->Bulwark (Breaker)+Sentinel (Keeper)-->Rampart (Ravage)-->etc.) But even then, how interesting can they really get in this game?

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

Then why are you here? Go play wow, it is still much more popular. Yeah they copied the summoner, and I am not too happy about that. However this thread is about the dark knight. So please go complain about it else where and I will be more than glad to join you by saying the summoner needs to be more focused on pets than DOT. However here your sounding like a troll.

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well i was a Shadow Knight in Everquest and i thoroughly loved it and it was a tank job btw. and i hate wow why would i play it. i played 11 since ps2 release all the way to Adolin i loved 11 cause it wasnt wow, so now that 14 as a wow clone with a hint of FF pepper on it ya i have small expectations. and so fair everything so far has been disappointing so far but i expected it. so just accepting they are gonna copy wow with dark knight will get the sting out when it happens, and if they dont copy wow well then everyone wins.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

well i was a Shadow Knight in Everquest and i thoroughly loved it. and i hate wow why would i play it. i played 11 since ps2 release all the way to Adolin i loved 11 cause it wasnt wow, so now that 14 as a wow clone with a hint of FF pepper on it ya i have small expectations. and so fair everything so far has been disappointing so far but i expected it. so just accepting they are gonna copy wow with dark knight will get the sting out when it happens, and if they dont copy wow well then everyone wins.

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You may say that, but at least a Death Knight would have more than 8 combat abilities... What WoW does or doesn't do will have been decisions fitting WoW, and their initial class design decisions are usually fairly decent. Conversely, just to take the SMN banter for example, sticking a job into a DoT-priority class just because it's there to add as a label onto something unrelated is far more alike to a stale copy-paste to me. And the problem is that SE appears to have made that their style, or what's 'fitting' for them, given their rigid system. Barebones through and through. They slice off all the burger's fat and wonder why it comes out dry...

That said, our current classes are at least in a decent enough place. It's just painful to know that we'll never really feel that sense of Final Fantasy versatility found in the single player games.

Ill be hanging up my sword and board when drk is released.

Kitru had a comment in another thread about how to setup Dark Knights within the GLD framework. Make DRK swords closer to bastard sword sizes, think slightly larger then Curtana, and have the DRK shields be bucklers. Think Tidus from FFX.

They could remove the +enmity from GLD attacks.
Bulwark now increases the damage of Shield Lob, Shield Bash, and Shield Swipe by ??%
Shield Swipe loses the prerequisite of needing a block and instead gains a shortish cooldown.
Flash becomes a weak AoE costing health.
Job skills cloud be a weak health drain, a stronger combo skill that uses health, and other skills borrowed from prior games.

Gladiator already has a full suite of cooldown since they shackled it to Conjurer in order to setup the Paladin. So it's cross-class have to limited to prevent too powerful a skill set from being created. Personally I would say THM/ARC with MRD.

Personal Opinion: Giving GLD and MRD a dps job soul would increase the number of tanks, possibly more then adding another tanking class would create.

Wouldnt the combination of Marauder and Summoner fit the Dark Knight nicely?
When you look at FF XI the DRK was using Greataxes or Scythes and used spells like Bio, Energy Drain and stuff. The Marauder even has Bloodbath ready for use. Its almost to perfect a fit.
Tho i'd love it, if they would change the weapon from Greataxes to Scythes when you equip the Soulcrystal, but thats just my opinion.
They just have to give the DRK a "Costs health and deals more damage"-Ability when you unlock it on 30 and your good to go.

Concerning the RDM mentioned a few times in this thread.
I'd like to have him like in FF XI too. More of a Support-Dps with EN-Spells and Debuffs like Poison and Paralyze, who excels in weakening the enemy.
Would be nice if he could "weave" his spells into his attacks trough procs or something.

PS.: I want my wyvern back :(

+1
For Drk with scythe like XI, yes i know it was a exception but I really miss Drk in XI even after SE/BW nerf. I like to see it go either 2ways personally. The squishy Spike GS Drk or the Squishy High DPS self sustained Scythe(Apoc).

I would imagine the knight being a new class rather than job and using a greatsword. Course, if that is the case you likely won't see it till expansion time.
Alternatively I think you could use gladiator as a baseline - even with his cooldowns, in fact the theory would be if your tank died, the knight could pop all cooldowns to temporarilly hstay alive while tank is rezzed

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Originally Posted by Asteldian

I would imagine the knight being a new class rather than job and using a greatsword. Course, if that is the case you likely won't see it till expansion time.
Alternatively I think you could use gladiator as a baseline - even with his cooldowns, in fact the theory would be if your tank died, the knight could pop all cooldowns to temporarilly hstay alive while tank is rezzed

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Said this on last page.

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Originally Posted by Bloodclaw

I concluded that it is possible, but I don't think the programers would do it. There would be too much needed to change, and it would be hard to make it work well; too many tank abilities. Yes some could be modded, but some just flat out do nothing but help the class get enmity, use shields, and get healed easier.
Flash, Convalescence, Shield Lob, Shield Bash, Provoke, Shield Swipe, Awareness, Sentinel, and Bulwark are all tank class abilites. Yes you could rework them all, but you would be better of making a new class at that point.

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That is just covering the activate-able abilities. I could go on and tank about the passive ones. Unless they make the DRK a tank, which I hope they wont, it will not happen. I don't see the DRK as a tank, as the WAR already has that sort of dark tank thing filled.

So let me ask you this really, as this is a common comment. Why would it come form a Gladiator honestly?

Don't forget to complete what you started in your opening post, Bloodclaw :)

I just don't see why people think DRK is going to come off GLD i know what was said about it by yosh? but form what i recall that was a could not a it will take this as a 100% fact.

DRK will only come form GLD if they plan to make it a tank and give it a shield leading to what seems like a PLD with War skills and tanking style.

The change to Mara skills in 2.1 mostly storms path/eye along with bloodbath seem to scream DRK base skills and all that is needed to turn it in to a dps is remove the Enmity form the base combo.

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Originally Posted by darzok

DRK will only come form GLD if they plan to make it a tank and give it a shield leading to what seems like a PLD with War skills and tanking style.

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I'll assume you didn't read the thread. Or any other thread pertaining to how Yoshi gave an example on how Dark Knight would branch from Gladiator.

- Remove emnity from skills (can't tank right there)
- Slightly rework some other skills so they are worthwhile for > DPS <

Now, the reason why DRK probably won't come from Gladiator is there are too many tanking abilities that would more than likely be overpowered for a DPS class. Much like if Geomancer came from Conjurer (Medica for a DPS class? Hah!)

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Now, the reason why DRK probably won't come from Gladiator is there are too many tanking abilities that would more than likely be overpowered for a DPS class. Much like if Geomancer came from Conjurer (Medica for a DPS class? Hah!)

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Depending on how much they nerf your mind while switching to GEO (stats change when using a soul crystal), and what gear they let GEO wear, medica could become worthless, its the same reason smn can only physic for 400, but sch can physic for 1K+. You're right it would be silly for a DD to have an aoe cure, but entirely possible if they do stat swap right, and let geo wear thm/acn/blm/smn stuff instead of cnj/whm/sch stuff. And they could change the ability entirely, like sch summing a healer fairy. It could be changed to an aoe buff on on a different job.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

I'll assume you didn't read the thread. Or any other thread pertaining to how Yoshi gave an example on how Dark Knight would branch from Gladiator.

- Remove emnity from skills (can't tank right there)
- Slightly rework some other skills so they are worthwhile for > DPS <

Now, the reason why DRK probably won't come from Gladiator is there are too many tanking abilities that would more than likely be overpowered for a DPS class. Much like if Geomancer came from Conjurer (Medica for a DPS class? Hah!)

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The remove enmity fix is not the only problem DRK would need a shield or the base GLD skills need a rework other wise you end up with what 4-5 skills that the DRK can not use in any way.

The work needed to have it come off GLD means the odds are if any thing it will come form Mara there is no need to read all the topic to work out the rework needed to make it work form GLD.

I know what yoshi said and people take it the wrong way and go DRK is coming form GLD its a fact yoshi said so and that is not what he said he just gave a basic example of HOW it could be.

The whole style of DRK form most other games puts it as coming form the Mara if not a whole new base class it self unless you go with the real old ff games where it did run around with a shield.

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Originally Posted by Volsung

Depending on how much they nerf your mind while switching to GEO (stats change when using a soul crystal), and what gear they let GEO wear, medica could become worthless, its the same reason smn can only physic for 400, but sch can physic for 1K+. You're right it would be silly for a DD to have an aoe cure, but entirely possible if they do stat swap right, and let geo wear thm/acn/blm/smn stuff instead of cnj/whm/sch stuff. And they could change the ability entirely, like sch summing a healer fairy. It could be changed to an aoe buff on on a different job.

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The primary stat nerf isn't what is necessary. It's the principle that a *lot* of Conjurer skills are straight up healing skills. I'm sure they could make it work but it would invalidate many skills you learn while leveling the class. Arcanist is a unique case in which most of your skills are dual function skills and only 2 fall under the category of healing abilities; Physick and Resurrection.

Conjurer is different.
- Cure/Cure II / Cure III
- Medica/Medica II
- Esuna
- Stoneskin
- Raise
- Shroud of Saints

Those are all basic conjurer skills, SE would be hard pressed to simply rework so much of the class rather than just make a completely new class.

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Originally Posted by darzok

The remove enmity fix is not the only problem DRK would need a shield or the base GLD skills need a rework other wise you end up with what 4-5 skills that the DRK can not use in any way.

The work needed to have it come off GLD means the odds are if any thing it will come form Mara there is no need to read all the topic to work out the rework needed to make it work form GLD.

I know what yoshi said and people take it the wrong way and go DRK is coming form GLD its a fact yoshi said so and that is not what he said he just gave a basic example of HOW it could be.

The whole style of DRK form most other games puts it as coming form the Mara if not a whole new base class it self unless you go with the real old ff games where it did run around with a shield.

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Except there are only a few games in which Dark Knight *couldn't* use shields. So the shield issue is only one based on emotional attachment to the 2-handed incarnations of Dark Knight rather than 1-handed ones. Coming from Marauder is equally as silly given their "blood" skills are pathetic in their own right with Dragoon having a better blood skill than Marauder. It'd simply be more intelligent on SE's part to just make a new class altogether to house Dark Knight's repertoire of skills.